Scourge needs another nerf, it is extremely obnoxious and unfun to play against

[crewthief.8649]

Just now, razaelll.8324 said:

ofcourse there should be, and necro has its tradeoffs and counters.

Right, but the trade-offs are not balanced properly to provide enough risk when compared against the reward. 

[razaelll.8324]

1 minute ago, crewthief.8649 said:

Right, but the trade-offs are not balanced properly to provide enough risk when compared against the reward. 

i cannot agree with that.

As i said previously scourge by it self is not  a problem in my opinion, but the synergy between scourge and core support guardian, and their combined ress potential

Edited May 10, 2021 by razaelll.8324

[crewthief.8649]

2 minutes ago, razaelll.8324 said:

i cannot agree with that.

As i said previously scourge by it self is not  a problem in my opinion, but the synergy between scourge and core support guardian, and their combined ress potential

Perhaps. Either way, it should be looked at.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

1 hour ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

imagine if they made a class that can tag an enemy

when you tag them, they are greyed out and are forced to afk untill the game is over, you cant move or do anything, they cant move or do anything.
As it turns the game into 4v4 its " perfectly balanced " but forces people to afk.
Is it balanced? technically, is it fun? kitten no, change it.

At the end of the day its a game and it should be enjoyable, and some things should not be allowed for the sake of... yes, FUN.
Like decap druid, bunker scrapper and tank meta in general. 
You will find people enjoying brainless decap, and happily play 500 games a season, knocking people with LB on repeat for 5 hours a day, but vast majority finds this kitten boring.

 

If you ask me, I think fun is just not a valid metric to use in any meaningful way because it's too subjective and there's no way to really zone in on what it is.

 

From a Philosopher's point of view, Jeremy Bentham said this:

 

"Nature has placed mankind under the governance of two sovereign masters, pain and pleasure. It is for them alone to point out what we ought to do, as well as to determine what we shall do."

 

In other words, human behavior is to avoid pain, and to seek pleasure. In a competitive environment, one's pain is another one's pleasure.

 

So ya at least in such a context, it's hard to even put a fence around the idea of fun, as the fun in Bentham's perspective, can be seen as the exploitation of someone else's experience.

[Kuma.1503]

Necro has some very fun builds... .... To play as  not against. 

 

Spite Reaper is my favorite of the bunch. It feels like you're playing with pre Feb-patch levels of damage, but you will be deceptively squishy so you will feel it if you make a mistake. It has a nice mix of risk and reward and that's what makes me enjoy playing it. 

 

 

Condi scourge (note: I'm talking soul reaping/curses or spite/curses. not blood/soul reaping while wearing sage amulet) You can dish out some disgusting AoE pressure, but you will have a target on your head, and you'll be a lot easier to kill than your average blood scourge. I tend to run triple defensive/mobility utilities to compensate. 

 

Core fear necro/Fear Scourge For optimal results, find a buddy who can play hammer mace/mace SpB with you. Find target. Do not let target play guild wars 2. 

 

You might not win the match, but it's worth it to watch someone do their best impression of a floppy fish. 

Btw it is mandatory to use stomp to CC them in downstate. Let them know that even when they go down they are not safe.

 

Chill Reaper This is specifically for when you know there's an ele on the enemy team who likes to push side nodes. Load up on Chill inducing traits and run rune of Ice. I run valkyrie rune with decimate defenses, bitter chill and intel on both weapon sets for the juicy 10k spinal shivers crits. 

 

The ele will hate you. 

[crewthief.8649]

29 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

If you ask me, I think fun is just not a valid metric to use in any meaningful way because it's too subjective and there's no way to really zone in on what it is.

 

From a Philosopher's point of view, Jeremy Bentham said this:

 

"Nature has placed mankind under the governance of two sovereign masters, pain and pleasure. It is for them alone to point out what we ought to do, as well as to determine what we shall do."

 

In other words, human behavior is to avoid pain, and to seek pleasure. In a competitive environment, one's pain is another one's pleasure.

 

So ya at least in such a context, it's hard to even put a fence around the idea of fun, as the fun in Bentham's perspective, can be seen as the exploitation of someone else's experience.

Well, I believe you can derive a credible metric using overwhelming consensus in some situations. For example, being hospitalized is widely considered not fun, but I agree, as a rule fun is largely subjective.

 

 However, I would posit that the purpose of balance in a video game relies upon what is fun as its central function. Feeling cheated, isn’t fun, and that is the basic premise of what makes something OP to begin with. If enough people “feel cheated” because of a cheap or cheesy mechanic, it will eventually be addressed in most cases.

[razaelll.8324]

22 minutes ago, crewthief.8649 said:

Well, I believe you can derive a credible metric using overwhelming consensus in some situations. For example, being hospitalized is widely considered not fun, but I agree, as a rule fun is largely subjective.

 

 However, I would posit that the purpose of balance in a video game relies upon what is fun as its central function. Feeling cheated, isn’t fun, and that is the basic premise of what makes something OP to begin with. If enough people “feel cheated” because of a cheap or cheesy mechanic, it will eventually be addressed in most cases.

Getting damaged from stealth is the definition of cheap and cheesy mechanic in my opinion, but thats a mechanic which is essental for thiefs and their playstyle

Edited May 10, 2021 by razaelll.8324

[crewthief.8649]

5 minutes ago, razaelll.8324 said:

Getting damaged from stealth is the definition of cheap and cheesy mechanic in my opinion, but thats a mechanic with is essental for thiefs and their playstyle

I won’t disagree with that. 

[razaelll.8324]

10 minutes ago, crewthief.8649 said:

I won’t disagree with that. 

The point is that you cannot nerf such mechanics just because some people dont like them, if the mechanics is not overpowered and has counter then its fine dont you agree?

[Math.5123]

I'll take any form of necro over SA deadeye any day of the week. 

[crewthief.8649]

14 minutes ago, razaelll.8324 said:

The point is that you cannot nerf such mechanics just because some people dont like them, if the mechanics is not overpowered and has counter then its fine dont you agree?

The issue is this:

 

 For the game mode, a Thief in stealth is useless. A Scourge, on the other hand, is loaded with AoE and sustain that allows them to dominate a point. Thieves are a threat to decap but they are nowhere near the threat that a Scourge is in a team fight. Now, do I think Scourge needs a nerf? I don’t have enough data to conclude that, however, they do need to be looked at.

Edited May 10, 2021 by crewthief.8649

[razaelll.8324]

11 minutes ago, crewthief.8649 said:

The issue is this:

 

 For the game mode, a Thief in stealth is useless. A Scourge, on the other hand, is loaded with AoE and sustain that allows them to dominate a point. Thieves are a threat to decap but they are nowhere near the threat that a Scourge is in a team fight. Now, do I think Scourge needs a nerf? I don’t have enough data to conclude that, however, they do need to be looked at.

That is what i am trying to explain a thief is a counter to scourge he can easely win 1vs1, the scourge by it self is not that good, the problem is the synergy between scourge and healer as core support guardian.winning a team fight against them is very hard because they can support each other very well and they can ress each other very easy

 

Most of the duelist builds have no problem against scourge if it is alone

Edited May 10, 2021 by razaelll.8324

[Leonidrex.5649]

3 hours ago, razaelll.8324 said:

the main problem with such a design is that it disables a player from playing the game, so i dont thing this example really serves your point.

Can you please elaborate on what exactly makes Necro unfun for you?

its 1 dimensional
the way I see it is that whenever you play a class you will encounter an obstacle.
a " wall "
while playing most classes you have decent amounts of ways of dealing with the obstacle, and choosing the right one and performing it properly dictates your victory or defeat.
Do you walk around it? scale it? teleport through?
necro feels like no matter what obstacle you face its always bashing your skull against the wall and it either works or it doesnt.

[razaelll.8324]

7 minutes ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

its 1 dimensional
the way I see it is that whenever you play a class you will encounter an obstacle.
a " wall "
while playing most classes you have decent amounts of ways of dealing with the obstacle, and choosing the right one and performing it properly dictates your victory or defeat.
Do you walk around it? scale it? teleport through?
necro feels like no matter what obstacle you face its always bashing your skull against the wall and it either works or it doesnt.

i am sorry but that is not the case, necro is countered by thiefs, by soulbeast and by other build of other classes.

necro is very vulnerable after it leaves shroud since most of the necro survivability comes from it

Edited May 10, 2021 by razaelll.8324

[crewthief.8649]

11 minutes ago, razaelll.8324 said:

That is what i am trying to explain a thief is a counter to scourge he can easely win 1vs1, the scourge by it self is not that good, the problem is the synergy between scourge and healer as core support guardian.winning a team fight against them is very hard because they can support each other very well and they can ress each other very easy

 

Most of the duelist builds have no problem against scourge if it is alone

Again, I don’t have the data (and I suspect that you don’t either) needed to either agree or disagree with your premise. I do however have enough anecdotal experience to at least suggest that it be looked at.

[razaelll.8324]

12 minutes ago, crewthief.8649 said:

Again, I don’t have the data (and I suspect that you don’t either) needed to either agree or disagree with your premise. I do however have enough anecdotal experience to at least suggest that it be looked at.

isn't it better first to understand where the problem comes from instead of asking for something to be looked at when you dont know what exactly need to be looked at?

 

Edited May 10, 2021 by razaelll.8324

[crewthief.8649]

11 minutes ago, razaelll.8324 said:

isn't it better first to understand where the problem comes from instead of asking for something to be looked at when we dont even know what exactly need to be looked at?

 

Okay. So provide me with the data to support your position. You know who probably has that data? Anet. 
 

Without actual data and/or statistics, this just boils down to the opinions of a couple people going off of their anecdotal experience.

Edited May 10, 2021 by crewthief.8649

[razaelll.8324]

5 minutes ago, crewthief.8649 said:

Okay. So provide me with the data to support your position. You know who probably has that data? Anet. 
 

Without actual data and/or statistics, this just boils down to the opinions of a couple people going off of their anecdotal experience.

what data exactly are you looking for? 

The data on which i base my opinion is AT tournaments and my personal experience in ranked and AT tournaments

Edited May 10, 2021 by razaelll.8324

[crewthief.8649]

5 minutes ago, razaelll.8324 said:

what data exactly are you looking for? 

The data which i based my opinion is AT tournaments

Data specific to Scourge performance when compared to other classes. In other words, win percentage, sustain data, etc., across the entire game mode. According to your premise, who is most responsible for that synergy, Guardian or Necromancer? I get that your position is that they’re complementary of one another, but is there one that is more responsible?

 

 Which quantifiable data were you able to glean from watching/participating in monthly AT?

Edited May 10, 2021 by crewthief.8649

[razaelll.8324]

15 minutes ago, crewthief.8649 said:

Data specific to Scourge performance when compared to other classes. In other words, win percentage, sustain data, etc., across the entire game mode. According to your premise, who is most responsible for that synergy, Guardian or Necromancer? I get that your position is that they’re complementary of one another, but is there one that is more responsible?

 

 Which quantifiable data were you able to glean from watching/participating in monthly AT?

The thread here targets scourge specifically and i claim that the problem is not scourge it self but the synergy between guardian and scourge.

Do guardian and scourge need to be looked? yes

Which contribute more to that synergy? - in my opinion its 50-50 because they cover each other weakneses. Scourge lack sunbreaks (usually the support scourge use only 1 ), guardian has aoe stunbreak and stability  , scourge has low condi cleanse, guardian have tons of aoe condi cleanse. Scourge can support the guardian when he is out of CDs with barriers and can peal for it with CC (fears), scourge can port downed allies to it self and have very fast res, guardian can use ranged res. scourge can do massive boon corruption which helps the team to 1 survive and 2 kill easier their enemies.  Scourge does more damage than the guardian.

Again please dont get me wrong, this composition need to be looked at for use and specially the res potential in my opinion, but as i said the thread targets scourge only and that what i disagree with

Edited May 10, 2021 by razaelll.8324

[crewthief.8649]

4 minutes ago, razaelll.8324 said:

The thread here targets scourge specifically and i claim that the problem is not scourge it self but the synergy between guardian and scourge.

Do guardian and scourge need to be looked? yes

Which contribute more to that synergy? - in my opinion its 50-50 because they cover each other weakneses. Scourge lack sunbreaks (usually the support scourge use only 1 ), guardian has aoe stunbreak and stability  , scourge has low condi cleanse, guardian have tons of aoe condi cleanse. Scourge can support the guardian when he is out of CDs with barriers and can peal for it with CC (fears), scourge can port downed allies to it self and have very fast res, guardian can use ranged res. scourge can do massive boon corruption which helps the team to 1 survive and 2 kill easier their enemies.  Scourge does more damage than the guardian.

That’s all I’m saying, man. It needs to be looked at. 

[razaelll.8324]

2 minutes ago, crewthief.8649 said:

That’s all I’m saying, man. It needs to be looked at. 

Maybe i understood you wrong, and excuse me if thats the case. if you mean that both of them need to be looked at i agree, but the thread targets scourge specifically and thats not correct in my opinion because scourge it self is not the problem but when you combine this 2 classes together 

Edited May 10, 2021 by razaelll.8324

[Axl.8924]

4 hours ago, crewthief.8649 said:

Yes, you can cleanse. And then they’re right back. I know how to deal with them (I played one quite alot this season), but their risk vs. reward seems off to me. 
 

Maybe you’re right, maybe there is a class of player out there that enjoys the interactive gameplay of cripple, chill, slow, etc.. I don’t really like condition gameplay at all, to be honest, so that class of player definitely isn’t me. 
 

P.S. I don’t really understand why my not liking a certain condition/class-mechanic means I don’t know how to play against it. I suppose making that claim is a clever way of discrediting my opinion?

 

For necros being 1 shotted from stealth from mes thiefs is unfun and classes able to instantly abuse cleanses to become 100% immune to conditions is also unfun.

 

Dealing with classes with tons of stuns able to stunlock you from range immobilize and root you is unfun.

 

What razeli said is true. Its about if its broken and abused in such a way that it can't be countered.

 

Also i think ez to play hard to play is subjective too.

 

I've seen some builds on some classes that seemed ez to play. Warr didn't seem that hard to play to be effective, and holo looks pretty ez so does guardian.

 

 

[Armen.1483]

I don't think that scourge is an extremely brokenly op class, but I admit it is very frustrating to play against. Happened so many times in ranked: you go mid at start only to find a clown troupe of 2 necros sitting there with their army of stupid minions. Then you see a mesmer coming. Your eyes start to hurt and you abandon mid just to not deal with that cluster hell. Nobody wants to deal with that, it is unfun and chaotic. 

[Master Ketsu.4569]

There is also the bigger problem that Necro has extremely poor quality animations along with traits that encourage mindless skill spam ( IE: Soul Marks ) that when combined with the poor animations make it so the best way to play necro is to just use half your abilities as soon as they come on cooldown.