Scourge needs another nerf, it is extremely obnoxious and unfun to play against

[Tomiyou.3790]

I know scourge is not as big of a deal in PvP tournaments anymore (tho worms vs r55 mAT begs to differ), but scourge is still very unfun and extremely degenerate to play against in ranked.

 

Scourge

- is still very tanky because of barrier (nerfs did help, but not much)

- has instant cast shades so CC doesn't help much 1v1

- has lots of corrupt, aoes cover entire nodes in some cases

- has INSANE synergy with core guard

- massive amounts of visual clutter (like I have played this game for 7 years now and even I still often cannot tell whats going on on the point from all the aoe spam)

- there is always at least 1 scourge in each team every game, often 2+ This creates a moshpit of aoe skills, shades and visual clutter, and it is horribly unfun play against it

 

All of this is made worse thanks to the fact that people often pick games with small nodes (Djinn's dominion......... awful map). I've seen cases where scourges literally don't dodge and still win games, they are a menace (name scourge seems fitting) in gold and below, where people only understand "fight on node" and "go mid teamfight" then feed into scourge and support guard. Very unhealthy PvP ranked meta.

 

I know some people will say just CC it and it dies, but try playing against a good scourge who knows what he's doing and has a support guard healing and rezzing with stability + rezz signet. Seriously, scourge was not made with PvP in mind and most people I know do not want to play against it anymore, its just not fun (I'd rather have unbalanced engi nades back than this), it should not be this good.

[KrHome.1920]

Just wait for the new Blood Bank (each incoming heal grants also barrier for 15% of the healing) next tuesday!

 

That will be fun.

 

[Bazsi.2734]

3 hours ago, KrHome.1920 said:

Just wait for the new Blood Bank (each incoming heal grants also barrier for 15% of the healing) next tuesday!

 

That will be fun.

 

Oh god no. Why did you have to remind us. I was sitting here in ignorant bliss, naively contemplating how the change to torment and resilience will throw everything off big time... thank you for reminding us that it will be worse.
Ready your deadeyes people. Nothing short of that high IQ 2-spam will be able to defeat that monster if it gets a buff to both damage and sustain.

[Kuma.1503]

Prot holo will be an even bigger counter to scourge next patch when their light aura grants them resilience. Rifle will also be a viable choice that will let them pressure from range without tanking AoE spam. 

 

Guardian is getting even more condi hate on top of all of the cleansing they already have, plus power longbow builds are getting a buff. I've already been playing glass LB dh to bully scourges

 

Prev and Renegade will be less vulnerable to conditions after the patch. Renegade won't have to worry about running Righteous Rebel into condi heavy comps. The resilience they get from retribution should be enough. 

 

Torment is getting a PvP nerf which should reduce their pressure a bit. 

 

Scourge might not be as oppressive as we think. 

 

 

Edited May 9, 2021 by Kuma.1503

[crewthief.8649]

Honestly, it’s just a boring fight, tbh. Sort of like minion master. Not necessarily broken OP, just dull.

[razaelll.8324]

6 hours ago, crewthief.8649 said:

Honestly, it’s just a boring fight, tbh. Sort of like minion master. Not necessarily broken OP, just dull.

If its not OP, but just boring then it does NOT need a nerf but a rework. Reword is unlikely to happen

[Leonidrex.5649]

13 minutes ago, razaelll.8324 said:

If its not OP, but just boring then it does NOT need a nerf but a rework. Reword is unlikely to happen

at this point being boring and sucking all the fun out of the game is necromancers class mechanic and identity.

[razaelll.8324]

2 minutes ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

at this point being boring and sucking all the fun out of the game is necromancers class mechanic and identity.

boring and fun are subjective terms. For you necro might be boring and unfun, for me thief is boring and unfun to play with and against. But class balance should not be based on such subjective terms

Edit: the synergy between Core support guard and scourge really makes them hard to kill and even if you down 1 of them the other one ress very quick. I think here the main problem is the ressing potential

Edited May 10, 2021 by razaelll.8324

[Leonidrex.5649]

Just now, razaelll.8324 said:

boring and fun are subjective terms. For you necro might be boring and unfun, for me thief is boring and unfun to play with and against. But class balance should not be based on such subjective terms

yes and no, 99,9% humans can agree that watching paint dry is boring, but I bet there is someone brain-damaged that somehow finds it entertaining, in general. necro doesnt offer anything 
its not much different with necro, people play it cuz its easy class that plays itself.

[razaelll.8324]

7 minutes ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

yes and no, 99,9% humans can agree that watching paint dry is boring, but I bet there is someone brain-damaged that somehow finds it entertaining, in general. necro doesnt offer anything 
its not much different with necro, people play it cuz its easy class that plays itself.

Could not disagree more with that statement. I play necro because i am finding it fun to play, not because its easy. I play also guardian , warrior , ele , revenant and ranger.

"its not much different with necro, people play it cuz its easy class that plays itself."
There is no class which play its self, and the class is as good as the person using it, a silver rank necro wont win against plat player, so that statement is simply wrong

necro as everything else has counters...
 

Edited May 10, 2021 by razaelll.8324

[Arheundel.6451]

1 minute ago, razaelll.8324 said:

Could not disagree more with that statement. I play necro because i am finding it fun to play, not because its easy. I play also guardian , warrior , ele , revenant and ranger.

 

Please try to explain what you find fun when playing necro....it's fun because you're getting results with the least amount of effort , people get offended by that truth and always try to come up with their own irrational reason.

 

 

[razaelll.8324]

7 minutes ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

Please try to explain what you find fun when playing necro....it's fun because you're getting results with the least amount of effort , people get offended by that truth and always try to come up with their own irrational reason.

 

 

"it's fun because you're getting results with the least amount of effort"
 

It is true that necro is probably the easiest class to play, i dont argue with that, but i dont play it because of that i play it because i like the class mechanic. I like the amount of presence which i can give to my team depending on the composition played with and played against. I like the plays which can be done by the ports (worm + spectral walk) and how you can turn the fight around if you play correctly.

My best results are with support guardian which is not exactly low effort. 

Edited May 10, 2021 by razaelll.8324

[Arheundel.6451]

10 minutes ago, razaelll.8324 said:

"it's fun because you're getting results with the least amount of effort"
 

It is true that necro is probably the easiest class to play, i dont argue with that, but i dont play it because of that i play it because i like the class mechanic.
My best results are with support guardian which is not exactly low effort. 

Yes you enjoy the mechanic because it's intuitive, fast and approachable without much thought behind don't tell me that you enjoy the mechanic because it uses green lights....

 

People play a profession depending on how effective it is, their mind will then associate the idea of fun with that profession...it's like real life where the majority of people go after professions based on moneys and the human mind associate money with comfort and a better life.

 

There is nothing offensive here, nobody here plays to prove anything...nobody pays you to jump through loops to achieve something, if you can get result by walking..why the hell would you jump? Main reason why I specifically main ranger now for everything and use ele for rare occasions and I won't use it at all once the legendary armory drop and can transfer everything on necro, which I play myself.

 

I play for fun just like you, screw what other think of me! And that's the point @Leonidrex.5649 was trying to make

Edited May 10, 2021 by Arheundel.6451

[razaelll.8324]

13 minutes ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

Yes you enjoy the mechanic because it's intuitive, fast and approachable without much thought behind don't tell me that you enjoy the mechanic because it uses green lights....

 

People play a profession depending on how effective it is, their mind will then associate the idea of fun with that profession...it's like real life where the majority of people go after professions based on moneys and the human mind associate money with comfort and a better life

"People play a profession depending on how effective it is"

effective is the key here, people play necro not because its easiest class but because its very effective currently!

I play weaver, supprot guard, ranger (3 different builds), revenent (2 different builds), because the same reason they are effective and i have fun because they suit my playstyle, not because they are easy

But the thing i responded to was the "fun" part. The person said that necro is unfun and i disargee with that, and simply pointed out that "fun" is subjective.
Is the necro the easiest class ? Yes , i agree with that.
Is the necro  that OP and easy to play ,in regard of beating better players than you ? No the class is good as the person using it, as i pointed out silver rank necro has no chance against plat player.

Edit: Also i disagree that scourge need another nerf, because scourge by it self is not a problem, the synergy between scourge and healer is the problem here in my opinion and the ress potential

Edited May 10, 2021 by razaelll.8324

[Arheundel.6451]

17 minutes ago, razaelll.8324 said:

"People play a profession depending on how effective it is"

effective is the key here, people play necro not because its easiest class but because its very effective currently!

I play weaver, supprot guard, ranger (3 different builds), revenent (2 different builds), because the same reason they are effective and i have fun because they suit my playstyle, not because they are easy

But the thing i responded to was the "fun" part. The person said that necro is unfun and i disargee with that, and simply pointed out that "fun" is subjective.
Is the necro the easiest class ? Yes , i agree with that.
Is the necro  that OP and easy to play ,in regard of beating better players than you ? No the class is good as the person using it, as i pointed out silver rank necro has no chance against plat player.

I believe people are annoyed by the fact that some professions win with less effort at equal rating, which may be true but completely irrelevant in the end. I used to think like them but I changed my approach, I stopped trying to fight the whole narrative...now I embrace it for the sake of my own sanity.

 

This company clearly doesn't care how much effort a class needs to compete against others, as long as that class is played enough in that gamemode, with that said can we confirm that current necro is a disaster of class design?....absolutely, but accepting the truth won't change anything so people should stop hoping for the best.

 

I am not trying to fault you, people will call you names regardless of what you play ..as long as you win...I am talking from personal experience.

 

Necro is considered unfun to play against which is sadly true, but unfun to play? hell no...I love playing necro in wvw, especially with trailblazer/settler stats

Edited May 10, 2021 by Arheundel.6451

[razaelll.8324]

15 minutes ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

I believe people are annoyed by the fact that some professions win with less effort at equal rating, which may be true but completely irrelevant in the end. I used to think like them but I changed my approach, I stopped trying to fight the whole narrative...now I embrace it for the sake of my own sanity.

 

This company clearly doesn't care how much effort a class needs to compete against others, as long as that class is played enough in that gamemode, with that said can we confirm that current necro is a disaster of class design?....absolutely, but accepting the truth won't change anything so people should stop hoping for the best.

 

I am not trying to fault you, people will call you names regardless of what you play ..as long as you win...I am talking from personal experience.

 

Necro is considered unfun to play against which is sadly true, but unfun to play? hell no...I love playing necro in wvw, especially with trailblazer/settler stats

"I believe people are annoyed by the fact that some professions win with less effort at equal rating, which may be true but completely irrelevant in the end. I used to think like them but I changed my approach, I stopped trying to fight the whole narrative...now I embrace it for the sake of my own sanity."

i completely agree with that. There will aways be professions which are easier than others.

For me there are classes which are much more unfun to play against as mesmer or thief, because their whole design is uninteractive, but they are not that viable at this point and they probably need a bit of buff.


 

Edited May 10, 2021 by razaelll.8324

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

People arguing about whether fun is subjective or not... About 10 posts dedicated to arguing about this... Fun is subjective and we will never get anywhere by trying to "balance" fun it's not a thing you can do....

 

It's like asking if you can balance a film to always be fun to watch...I mean are there procedures that make a film procedurally enjoyable? Add X actor, make the plot about X->Y->Z and have the character kiss their love interest and sacrifice himself in the end might be a procedure to make a generically "fun" film...But are these procedurally generic films actually fun if all the films are the same? What makes things fun in a subjective sense, is that films are different and give us all different experiences.

 

There are probably be people out there that will enjoy watching Olympus has Fallen 7, or Fast and Furious 10 when they start driving cars on the moon, for some that's a brand new experience, for others like myself it's not. 

 

If we all fight the same builds all the time, and we always lose to one class with one build because that's just how the game is designed, than that is our "generic plot" It's the lack of experiencing any new things in this plot that solidify whether this is fun or not fun for you... And that's subjective because the other person is experiencing a different plot then you are.

 

Should be obvious what i'm explaining here, shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. 

 

 

 

Edited May 10, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Leonidrex.5649]

34 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

People arguing about whether fun is subjective or not... About 10 posts dedicated to arguing about this... Fun is subjective and we will never get anywhere by trying to "balance" fun it's not a thing you can do....

 

It's like asking if you can balance a film to always be fun to watch...I mean are there procedures that make a film procedurally enjoyable? Add X actor, make the plot about X->Y->Z and have the character kiss their love interest and sacrifice himself in the end might be a procedure to make a generically "fun" film...But are these procedurally generic films actually fun if all the films are the same? What makes things fun in a subjective sense, is that films are different and give us all different experiences.

 

There are probably be people out there that will enjoy watching Olympus has Fallen 7, or Fast and Furious 10 when they start driving cars on the moon, for some that's a brand new experience, for others like myself it's not. 

 

If we all fight the same builds all the time, and we always lose to one class with one build because that's just how the game is designed, than that is our "generic plot" It's the lack of experiencing any new things in this plot that solidify whether this is fun or not fun for you... And that's subjective because the other person is experiencing a different plot then you are.

 

Should be obvious what i'm explaining here, shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. 

 

 

 

imagine if they made a class that can tag an enemy

when you tag them, they are greyed out and are forced to afk untill the game is over, you cant move or do anything, they cant move or do anything.
As it turns the game into 4v4 its " perfectly balanced " but forces people to afk.
Is it balanced? technically, is it fun? kitten no, change it.

At the end of the day its a game and it should be enjoyable, and some things should not be allowed for the sake of... yes, FUN.
Like decap druid, bunker scrapper and tank meta in general. 
You will find people enjoying brainless decap, and happily play 500 games a season, knocking people with LB on repeat for 5 hours a day, but vast majority finds this kitten boring.

[razaelll.8324]

17 minutes ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

imagine if they made a class that can tag an enemy

when you tag them, they are greyed out and are forced to afk untill the game is over, you cant move or do anything, they cant move or do anything.
As it turns the game into 4v4 its " perfectly balanced " but forces people to afk.
Is it balanced? technically, is it fun? kitten no, change it.

At the end of the day its a game and it should be enjoyable, and some things should not be allowed for the sake of... yes, FUN.
Like decap druid, bunker scrapper and tank meta in general. 
You will find people enjoying brainless decap, and happily play 500 games a season, knocking people with LB on repeat for 5 hours a day, but vast majority finds this kitten boring.

the main problem with such a design is that it disables a player from playing the game, so i dont thing this example really serves your point.

Can you please elaborate on what exactly makes Necro unfun for you?

Edited May 10, 2021 by razaelll.8324

[crewthief.8649]

Being chilled, crippled, slowed, or weakened is objectively un-fun. When you fight basically any Necro build, you will spend most of the fight with one or more of those condis on your character. Let’s not even talk about zookeeper MM specs and whether or not they’re fun to play against...

 

 The point is, yes, fun is subjective to a point, but there are many objectively un-fun aspects to fighting a Necromancer. I am of the opinion that it (Scourge) should be adjusted because it is too effective for the amount of effort required. Yes, you can snipe them from off-point, but let’s be real here, sPvP is a game mode that requires standing on a point, a point upon which a Scourge can litter perpetual AoE. Truth-be-told, I think AoE in general is probably way too effective.

Edited May 10, 2021 by crewthief.8649

[razaelll.8324]

9 minutes ago, crewthief.8649 said:

Being chilled, crippled, slowed, or weakened is objectively un-fun. When you fight basically any Necro build, you will spend most of the fight with one or more of those condis on your character. Let’s not even talk about zookeeper MM specs and whether or not they’re fun to play against...

 

 The point is, yes, fun is subjective to a point, but there are many objectively un-fun aspects to fighting a Necromancer. I am of the opinion that it (Scourge) should be adjusted because it is too effective for the amount of effort required. 

"Being chilled, crippled, slowed, or weakened is objectively un-fun."  - how are this "objectively unfun"?
They are conditions which can be cleansed which makes them interactive, so you can interact with this mechanincs.

Also if this conditions are unfun then the same can be said for stability, superspeed , might and so on, i mean no offence to you but so far it looks to me that you just dont know how to deal with necro, not that its "unfun".

i think that "objectivly unfun" is something which you cannot interact with as getting damaged from stealth or getting 1shoted from stealt. Conditions which can be cleansed are not "objectively unfun", they might be unfun for you specificly

Edited May 10, 2021 by razaelll.8324

[crewthief.8649]

3 minutes ago, razaelll.8324 said:

"Being chilled, crippled, slowed, or weakened is objectively un-fun." how are this "objectivelyunfun" they are conditions which can be cleansed which makes them interactive, so you can interact with this mechanincs.

Also if this conditions are unfun then the same can be said for stability, superspeed , might and so on, i mean no offence to you but so far it looks to me that you just dont know how to deal with necro, not that its "unfun".

i think that "objectivly unfun" is something which you cannot interact with as getting damaged from stealth

Yes, you can cleanse. And then they’re right back. I know how to deal with them (I played one quite alot this season), but their risk vs. reward seems off to me. 
 

Maybe you’re right, maybe there is a class of player out there that enjoys the interactive gameplay of cripple, chill, slow, etc.. I don’t really like condition gameplay at all, to be honest, so that class of player definitely isn’t me. 
 

P.S. I don’t really understand why my not liking a certain condition/class-mechanic means I don’t know how to play against it. I suppose making that claim is a clever way of discrediting my opinion?

Edited May 10, 2021 by crewthief.8649

[razaelll.8324]

8 minutes ago, crewthief.8649 said:

Yes, you can cleanse. And then they’re right back. I know how to deal with them (I played one quite alot this season), but their risk vs. reward seems off to me.

risk vs reward is completely another topic.

You said that this conditions are "objectively unfun" but i still fail to understand where the "objectively" part comes from. As i said if they are unfun for you thats okay, but that does not make them objectively unfun.

edit: "Truth-be-told, I think AoE in general is probably way too effective." i agree with that

Edited May 10, 2021 by razaelll.8324

[crewthief.8649]

5 minutes ago, razaelll.8324 said:

risk vs reward is completely another topic.

You said that this conditions are "objectively unfun" but i still fail to understand where the "objectively" part comes from. As i said if they are unfun for you thats okay, but that does not make them objectively unfun.

This game is all about mobility, and those conditions hamper that significantly. Risk vs. reward is precisely the purpose of a balance request. I mean, what makes something OP? Isn’t it that the risk vs. reward isn’t balanced properly? Like, shouldn’t there be some sort of trade-off for every class?

Edited May 10, 2021 by crewthief.8649

[razaelll.8324]

2 minutes ago, crewthief.8649 said:

This game is all about mobility, and those conditions hamper that significantly. Risk vs. reward is precisely the purpose of a balance request. I mean, what makes something OP? Isn’t it that the risk vs. reward isn’t balanced properly? Like, shouldn’t there be some sort of trade-off for every class?

ofcourse there should be, and necro has its tradeoffs and counters.

Edited May 10, 2021 by razaelll.8324