Heavy Loot Bags & Removal of Retaliation

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

Wrong game mode for loot bags. Goto cursed shore for that. Just be happy you get to fight people 

[anonymous.7812]

929 kills and 298 bags in our 3 hour reset raid on Weaver, and Firebrands/Scrappers only hitting an average of 1/3 that.

 

Absolutely unfair for support players. Not all players want or can rotate roles to even out the participation. The game should do that for us. 

 

I can donate all my bags but they still do not get kill credit, hampering their achievement progress.

[Zikory.6871]

Who cares about bags, plenty of ways in game to get loot. 

Kill credit is a large part of WXP gains for blob fights. 

Revert Guardian Staff 1 to its old AoE and how about Shattered Aegis 🙂

[ArchonWing.9480]

2 hours ago, anonymous.7812 said:

929 kills and 298 bags in our 3 hour reset raid on Weaver, and Firebrands/Scrappers only hitting an average of 1/3 that.

 

Absolutely unfair for support players. Not all players want or can rotate roles to even out the participation. The game should do that for us. 

 

I can donate all my bags but they still do not get kill credit, hampering their achievement progress.

Congrats on making 3 gold per hour. (eh, maybe 3.1) On a week that rewards are boosted.  If you think this is actually worth anything, then it's evident that the only unfair thing here is WvW rewards.

 

And if you want to talk about kill count, roamers have a word with that.

 

As I've said before, the system based on tag is fundamentally flawed and can never be fixed because it values hitting more targets and blob fights. This is true even if your rewards were based on supporting people that hit more targets. eg (A flamethrower engi that arrives at the end and tags all the downs is valued higher than a rev that lands a key burst on 3 targets, or a warrior that stalls a group long enough for allies to arrive). You can come up with all kinds of funky solutions to adjust, but I just see a waste of time.

 

The solution is to make WvW playing in general worth playing and not just fix an insignificant part of it that will benefit approximately no one.

 

And sure, I would definitely pay my firebrand 3g/hour to shut up if they seriously value 6g of bags over -33% condition damage reduction.. Though I'd much rather do it myself. 😉

Edited May 15, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[XenesisII.1540]

Oh noes slower progress on kill achievements and loot bags, everyone not in a boon ball be like 🙄

 

Heh imagine you're full bunker support hitting like a wet noodle that couldn't kill anyone, but thinking you still deserve to get full credit on every kill for kill achievements.... 🤭

 

You know what, since the support are fully targeting their own team instead of the enemy, I think it's fair they should get their "bag donations" from their team instead of their enemies. So get to donating to your team support you none support players.

 

As for kill progress, put on more dps stats if you want to tag stuff, don't sit there and act like you don't have the options to do this.

 

Huh I'm actually liking this retaliation change now.

 

[ArchonWing.9480]

Also, not all supports suffer from this problem like blood scourge or support tempests. The main examples are Med Kit scrapper (didn't generate retal anyways), and more importantly Firebrand (gets 70%+ uptime on retal for doing things they were already going to do). Oh and I guess those Retri Ventari Core Revs; all 3 of them. Also support warrior but that's more because they destroyed hammer as a weapon.

 

Now you could argue that non-FB supports got retal from their FBs and got credit that way. But in that case they weren't getting bags for being support, but for happening to be there.

 

As you can see that is not a good case for retal.

 

Btw, reflects.

Edited May 15, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[LadyHawk.5319]

I am not arguing for or against retal. The problem is Anet took away source of WXP from kills and bags/mats from kills that were previously there. Three hrs of steady raiding tonight and I got 12 bags on my FB.  
"If you want credit, you gotta kill."  Ok, fine. First of all, this is directed to non-roamers, non pvpers in wvw. As ppl who play that way do not usually utilize support FBs, mediscrappers. This is directed at ppl who play in zergs and havoc.  You know, the other players in WvW. Support needs some sort of compensate, reward analogous to kill credit, kill reward.
You get loot for playing a game. This is the rule. FBs play the game. With zergs, they fulfill a vital role. They make it so that DPS can kill others. And their reward? After 3 hours of hard play, their reward is 12 bags. Luckily, I belong to an awesome guild who believes in sharing their bags with their support. 

[Voltekka.2375]

On 5/13/2021 at 12:10 PM, anonymous.7812 said:

 

As I mentioned, average out the contribution based on damage, heals, boons, strips in a given fight, then award a shared pool of drops, and award kill credit for all enemies you helped kill based on that contribution. They already have the technology to give contribution based on boons and healing, but you still need to damage the enemy. They can remove that requirement just as a start, and just straight up give kill credit when you heal/boon up someone else that got kill credit.

 

 

Again, as I mentioned. These Emblems are planned to be currency for tickets or something else. They will not be garbage. Soon™

Do we have a source for this? The emblems part, i mean.

[ArchonWing.9480]

1 hour ago, LadyHawk.5319 said:

I am not arguing for or against retal. The problem is Anet took away source of WXP from kills and bags/mats from kills that were previously there. Three hrs of steady raiding tonight and I got 12 bags on my FB.  
"If you want credit, you gotta kill."  Ok, fine. First of all, this is directed to non-roamers, non pvpers in wvw. As ppl who play that way do not usually utilize support FBs, mediscrappers. This is directed at ppl who play in zergs and havoc.  You know, the other players in WvW. Support needs some sort of compensate, reward analogous to kill credit, kill reward.
You get loot for playing a game. This is the rule. FBs play the game. With zergs, they fulfill a vital role. They make it so that DPS can kill others. And their reward? After 3 hours of hard play, their reward is 12 bags. Luckily, I belong to an awesome guild who believes in sharing their bags with their support. 

 

I got 29 bags in 45 minutes as a support firebrand today. Which certainly isn't good, but are you like not throwing reflects?

 

Well ok, actually I changed some my gear to Celestial  (don't) which turned out to be a complete failure as an experiment as my damage was still negligible. (About twice  than the minstrel fbs which is still nothing as it is 1/10 of the top dps 😞). So back to Minstrel.

 

Also,  you also get stuff from reward tracks and skirmish. I should probably run the farming tracker again

 

Here were the results last time (late 2019): https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/50704-how-much-do-we-earn-on-average-in-an-hour-of-active-wvw/?do=findComment&comment=992984

 

I was also support firebrand when tested and got only 26 bags (73s)  in an hour. I made a bit more than 6g per hour (though admittingly RNG was good.) So safe to say that the bags were maybe 15% of my income, if even.

 

Like I keep saying. It's a fraction of a fraction. Why fight over the pennies when you should be fighting for everyone to earn gold. Especially scouts or whatever that may even struggle to break even.

 

Anyhow, if you ask me. The invention of a "support only" spec was a horrible mistake for this game. Get this raid crap out of here. And I hope EOD does.

 

This is from someone that pretty much mains support Firebrand in all content; and sometimes support scrapper.

 

Edited May 17, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[LadyHawk.5319]

It's more than reward bags. It's WXP. Ok. A better example on how healers (low kill classes) suffer from the current reward system:
Three years ago I returned to WvW after playing it for a short time. I had worked my way up to rank 330 before I quit. When I returned (3 years ago) a friend joined with me. My friend plays dps. I play support (mostly FB or Mediscrapper, occasionally tempest) and Rev on occasion. My friend was new to GW2 so started WvW at a fresh rank. In these past 3 years, we played WvW together, my friend as DPS and me as support. This week my friend past me in rank. Yes it took 3 years so it wasnt fast but it happened. Why? Not because of the hours. In fact, I have prolly played more hours than my friend in the past 3 years. But because my friend plays DPS and I play support, mostly FB. The reward system is geared to reward the DPS player, not any one else. Yes, I can get bags from tracks, ppl can graciously give me bags. Hell, I can earn more money in pve and buy the damned things. But what about the WXP? I ... we, are out on that. Thank you FB for the stab. Thank you FB for the sustain. Thank you FB for playing the game, but you get no rewards. 

Now, some ppl say, get rid of support. Get rid of zergs. Now you are splitting what WvW should be there for. You are saying that WvW should be played as a solo/roamer/small havoc group only; as a mode where you can play WvW without the constraints of sPvP. You are saying that large squads are not allowed. You are saying, Good. You, healer, do not deserve rewards. We don't want you. But you do. not.speak.for.every.one.

[ArchonWing.9480]

Killing players is not really the best way to gain wxp more; it's more of a measure of how much you karma train/flip structures. In fact when EOTM was popular, it was easy to tell who was an EOTM'er by their high ranks. You could get these ranks not because of constant fights there; in fact it was the exact opposite-- mass karma training and avoiding fights. This is because wxp is dependent on how long the player is alive, so eventually people will be just worth 1xp.  Also it's very easy to inflate rank with boosters and events. I've gotten 24 levels just this weekend playing only support or small scale because each tower cap is like 1000wxp (20% of a level!) and I took 15 of those. If you have several toons and have played a while, birthday boosters (or celebration) are just too plentiful so you might as well always have it on.

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/World_Experience#World_ranks

 

As you can see here, killng a player is worth 0-60 points, while killing a guard is worth 20. That means taking a sentry gives you 120 points already. And with a group, it is basically no effort to take camps or towers.

 

Also before Firebrand, Guardians were also support, but they also were to do damage too. So it's FB that's the aberration more than anything else.

Edited May 17, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[Leaa.2943]

On 5/12/2021 at 7:54 AM, Vegeta.2563 said:

So with retal gone.  Support classes that don't actually hit people no longer get bags.  In general the amount of bags that drop is significantly lower.  In a 2 hour period pre-patch in a 30m SMC fight I would end up with maybe 100-150 bags, on a DPS class.  Post-patch, I didn't even make it to 30 fighting the same group within the same time frame.  I can't even imagine how bad the support classes have it with next to no bags..

I never had retaliation as support and always had less loot. I dont get why this is so bad now because Guardian wont get it. Welcome to my world 😕

[Zikory.6871]

7 minutes ago, Leaa.2943 said:

I never had retaliation as support and always had less loot. I dont get why this is so bad now because Guardian wont get it. Welcome to my world 😕

If you never had retaliation, your Firebrand wasn't even pressing its buttons. Retaliation comes from most of the same skills that give Stability...

[anonymous.7812]

15 hours ago, Voltekka.2375 said:

Do we have a source for this? The emblems part, i mean.

 

CMC mentioned it a few times when they did the WvW streams.

[Malak.7108]

I play FB support and can gets loads of bags in the right circumstances. For instance, if its near the end of a fight and it looks like we will win, I just use F1 Tome of Justice and the burning on opposition players gives me loads of bags. Often the ground is littered with bags.

 

It does seem a bit unfair to get all these bags because I don't have the skill to play DPS and haven't actually targeted anyone. Anyhow, it is fun, although its far more fun trying to keep our players alive.

 

I use the this build https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Firebrand_-_Support_Firebrand which doesn't give much DPS.

 

By the way, as a fairly unskillful FB support player I was also upset about the changes of retaliation and stacking etc, but that's the way things go. We did get the precharge removed from Utilities which made a big difference after dying, changing maps etc. So not all was bad for us.