Heavy Loot Bags & Removal of Retaliation

[Vegeta.2563]

So with retal gone.  Support classes that don't actually hit people no longer get bags.  In general the amount of bags that drop is significantly lower.  In a 2 hour period pre-patch in a 30m SMC fight I would end up with maybe 100-150 bags, on a DPS class.  Post-patch, I didn't even make it to 30 fighting the same group within the same time frame.  I can't even imagine how bad the support classes have it with next to no bags..

[XenesisII.1540]

Would be sad... but since you run around safely in your boon ball.... 🤭

Time for your team mates to donate to you for your service instead. 🤪

[ArchonWing.9480]

Ehh, it's 2 separate issues.

 

Retal was a dumb mechanic with 0 counterplay, and made it impossible to attack into certain boonballs without your own support, while the loot system probably deserves consideration because it is outdated-- most reward systems in this game are not tag dependent anymore. And that's good as it promoted a selfish playstyle.

 

That being said, heavy loot bags are barely worth anything. 100 bags is just 3g. You could make that just by grabbing all the leather nodes along the way. Mostly, anything of value comes from reward tracks and the occasional memory of battle.

 

The other thing is that support classes will probably adopt cele, so it's only a problem for firebrands and scrappers. The death of the minstrels is not really a bad thing if you ask me.

Edited May 12, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[cobbah.3102]

Retal a dumb mechanic worked fine for me , stealth an even dumber mechanic and untouched go figure , but to be expected , always someone going to complain about somerthing that makes them have to think of a diffferent way. GW2 unadulterated mess is what it is . No EOD for me thats for sure.

[Junkpile.7439]

If you want bags don't play support. If you play wall repairman in wvw you won't get bags either.

Edited May 12, 2021 by Junkpile.7439

[reddie.5861]

2 hours ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

 

That being said, heavy loot bags are barely worth anything. 100 bags is just 3g.

 

kittening ton of gold for me takes ages for me to make 3g if u dont calculate daily in

 

[ArchonWing.9480]

42 minutes ago, reddie.5861 said:

 

What reward track are you running? Living story reward tracks give you lots of high value mats.

Are you salvaging everything? Mithril Ore is @ almost 1s per pop now.  I don't even mine mithril most  of the time; a few bags here and there is nothing.

 

Also don't forget people aren't guaranteed to drop bags. They're  more likely to drop spikes. So 1 tag is not 1 bag it maybe; about 1/4 of one.

And of course, those polar bears near N camp drop blood that's worth a bit. But I feel like just 15 min of pve would be better, as opposed to not going all out to support your squad because of some silly loot. If your group is worth their salt, they should be providing all the food anyways if they know what's good for them.  It shouldn't cost you anything to run as a support in WvW for groups. (ok, oil)

 

edit: of course, if you roam, the income is much lower. Though you also wouldn't get as many bags either.

Edited May 12, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

3 hours ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Ehh, it's 2 separate issues.

 

Retal was a dumb mechanic with 0 counterplay, and made it impossible to attack into certain boonballs without your own support, while the loot system probably deserves consideration because it is outdated-- most reward systems in this game are not tag dependent anymore. And that's good as it promoted a selfish playstyle.

 

That being said, heavy loot bags are barely worth anything. 100 bags is just 3g. You could make that just by grabbing all the leather nodes along the way. Mostly, anything of value comes from reward tracks and the occasional memory of battle.

 

The other thing is that support classes will probably adopt cele, so it's only a problem for firebrands and scrappers. The death of the minstrels is not really a bad thing if you ask me.

cannot they drop ascended mats? notsure if that's them or the levelup blue box thingies tho

[arielwind.8921]

i'm kinda surprised Anet forgot that retaliation was one of the loot bag chance for support classes in WvW. 

[ArchonWing.9480]

5 minutes ago, kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

cannot they drop ascended mats? notsure if that's them or the levelup blue box thingies tho

Nope, https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Heavy_Loot_Bag

 

And you might just get rekt and get t5s. However, I do believe it's slightly better over the long run to open them.

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

well, t6 mats are at least quite some money, and t5's technically upgradeable. not that i really have the patience for that.

[ArchonWing.9480]

Yea I wouldn't upgrade mats unless it's the Mystic Forge Daily or you want a legendary.

 

Time is more important. It's why I hear people using runecrafter to salvage the greens and w/e, and I'm just like; I don't care about squeezing the last copper. It's not like you really need gold for much anyways.

[Dawdler.8521]

So what? 

A zergling playing braindead support while stacking on a commander and relying on others to kill targets get less bags boohoo. 

I can spend 5 minutes defending a kittening camp outnumbered because no one responds and I get a broken spoon for it.

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

@Dawdler.8521 in the same time you could have gotten daily spvp. and if that stuff is all you do in Wvw, you could have yet won a spvp AT for 50 gold or what is is xD

 

@ArchonWing.9480 well, i do upgrade + sell them when my storage explodes... i still have nothing higher than 20er bags (pockets)

Edited May 12, 2021 by kamikharzeeh.8016

[Fatherbliss.4701]

This can’t be true. If that was a viable source of income Anet would have definitely nerfed it three years ago when they broke our dreams. 

[ArchonWing.9480]

2 hours ago, kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

@Dawdler.8521 in the same time you could have gotten daily spvp. and if that stuff is all you do in Wvw, you could have yet won a spvp AT for 50 gold or what is is xD

 

@ArchonWing.9480 well, i do upgrade + sell them when my storage explodes... i still have nothing higher than 20er bags (pockets)

20 slot bags are fine. Getting more storage just encourages people to store more useless junk IMO. 😉 Some of my friends do 18 slots and have much more gold to me because I guess it's more cost effective, but I don't see the need for that. Can just buy the wvw bag.

 

Oh, nothing wrong with upgrading mats in your spare time. I just meant obsessing over it like it must be done.

 

There's just so much crap that enters the inventory that I just don't care to deal with a lot of it beyond finding the fastest way to get rid of it. Although I do ID the unid'd stuff, because apparently that's better over the long run.

 

Maybe I'm just not an much of an  MMO player but I don't have the constant urge for legendaries. So my gold  goes mostly to making ascended food which isn't that expensive and cheap people can often freeload off someone else too. I don't use guild siege I guess. The game gives you so much crap for free (logging in, dailies) that I never worry about gold unless I have something in mind. Even just being a little patient with sell orders >>>> picking up a few more tags.

Edited May 13, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[XenesisII.1540]

If you want credit for killing something... you need to do damage to it... you have the option to put on some power gear afterall... no one said had to go full minstrels, heck put some cleric or celestial on.

 

But don't worry I'm sure anet will increase the participation from healing to get credit soon enough, can't stress the boon ballers out.

[anonymous.7812]

It's a good 30-60%+ nerf to bags and kill credit for support classes. This affects number of drops, UD credit, and Emblems of the Avenger (which devs have plans to allow turn-ins for tickets or something else) -- so it is something they should look into fixing. It shouldn't be just about how fast you can tag as many people as you can, it should average the contribution from boons, strips, heals, damage for everyone in a fight.

[nthmetal.9652]

On 5/12/2021 at 7:54 AM, Vegeta.2563 said:

So with retal gone.  Support classes that don't actually hit people no longer get bags.  In general the amount of bags that drop is significantly lower.  In a 2 hour period pre-patch in a 30m SMC fight I would end up with maybe 100-150 bags, on a DPS class.  Post-patch, I didn't even make it to 30 fighting the same group within the same time frame.  I can't even imagine how bad the support classes have it with next to no bags..

Welcome to the world of support warrior, even before the patch. Because the amount of retal on shoutbreaker was rather low, and especially if your blob was not the one doing the melee train, you'd be hard pressed for bags. It was not unusual for a scourge to collect 2 or even 3 times the amount, that a shoutbreaker gets.

 

Generally Anet should reconsider their stance of kill-rewards based on damage dealt to enemies, it's just not fair. Either lower the threshold significantly, or, even better: Since pure support builds are usually played in the context of squads, how about evaluating the distance to tag, and if the average in a given fight does not exceed a certain threshold, maybe simply share the bags generated in the zerg between all people?

Edited May 13, 2021 by nthmetal.9652

[ArchonWing.9480]

There's no way to fix the tagging system, because it's inherently flawed due to it incentivizing selfish behavior (tag enemies rather than working for group success). And for the most part the game has moved past it.

 

This is why most content after vanilla in pve gives rewards based on content completion rather than hitting mobs. This is why I said earlier that the tagging system was dated. In WvW, the reward system switched to be based on skirmish and reward tracks. The tag for bag is basically just a relic for the past.

 

So the best solution is to improve reward tracks as well as skirmish track rewards. They could have actually useful things to buy with tickets, for example. This will level out the loot earned for most people so the actual tags matter even less.

 

Of course it does kind of suck to have a lower kill count, but considering how the counter is raised, it is really just a number. I probably could have had UD by now if I didn't play support I guess.

 

Oh, and Emblems of the Avenger. Why? You only need 2 at most, and honestly that's just extra garbage in my inventory these days.

 

Finally, are we really saying the game is ripping you off by granting you -30% condi damage reduction with at least 50% uptime without any effort just because you get a few less spikes? Priorities? If you go down, you'll lose out on loot anyways. If your response is "Lol my group clears all the condis anyways", then maybe you farming those 12 pugs that keep running back really shouldn't be rewarded that much.

Edited May 13, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[nthmetal.9652]

2 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

So the best solution is to improve reward tracks as well as skirmish track rewards. They could have actually useful things to buy with tickets, for example. This will level out the loot earned for most people so the actual tags matter even less.

 

That would be easy, but imagine a reward track, that can compete with PvE in terms of gold / hour. The game would explode!

 

And while we are at it, we could maybe take a look at the participation system and fix that, too, so that you get participation, when you actually participate, and not when a group of gankers repeatedly stops one person, they get everything, while the one being stopped gets nothing .

[ArchonWing.9480]

6 minutes ago, nthmetal.9652 said:

 

That would be easy, but imagine a reward track, that can compete with PvE in terms of gold / hour. The game would explode!

 

And while we are at it, we could maybe take a look at the participation system and fix that, too, so that you get participation, when you actually participate, and not when a group of gankers repeatedly stops one person, they get everything, while the one being stopped gets nothing .

 

Yea we can't have people playing the game mode because (insert gatekeeping) even though it helps people that play the game mode.

 

But hey, before HoT, WvW was a gold sink. Like it was basically negative income because no reward track and tagging was everything. And RIP you if you had to pay for structure  upgrades. Nowadays siege is cheap as dirt and consumables are everywhere with free stat selectable exotics every week.  It's also possible to grind out legendary armor without any pve but it is slow though.

 

Did you know you can still buy regular siege with laurels? Yea, some stuff is still stuck in the past.

 

I dunno, perhaps participation could decay slower if you're actually out of spawn and in combat.  But it would still be hard on those WvWers that have to do more boring activities like walk yaks and such. Yes I know it resets participation but it's still horrible. I only do it to help other people because I know how horrible it is and it's more like feeling bad for them than anything else lol.

Edited May 13, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[anonymous.7812]

22 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

There's no way to fix the tagging system, because it's inherently flawed due to it incentivizing selfish behavior (tag enemies rather than working for group success). And for the most part the game has moved past it.

 

As I mentioned, average out the contribution based on damage, heals, boons, strips in a given fight, then award a shared pool of drops, and award kill credit for all enemies you helped kill based on that contribution. They already have the technology to give contribution based on boons and healing, but you still need to damage the enemy. They can remove that requirement just as a start, and just straight up give kill credit when you heal/boon up someone else that got kill credit.

 

25 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Oh, and Emblems of the Avenger. Why? You only need 2 at most, and honestly that's just extra garbage in my inventory these days.

 

Again, as I mentioned. These Emblems are planned to be currency for tickets or something else. They will not be garbage. Soon™

[ArchonWing.9480]

33 minutes ago, anonymous.7812 said:

 

As I mentioned, average out the contribution based on damage, heals, boons, strips in a given fight, then award a shared pool of drops, and award kill credit for all enemies you helped kill based on that contribution. They already have the technology to give contribution based on boons and healing, but you still need to damage the enemy. They can remove that requirement just as a start, and just straight up give kill credit when you heal/boon up someone else that got kill credit.[/quote]

 

But why bother with all of that, when we can just improve reward tracks? Even with such a system, it's still going to favor blob fights.  The current skirmish system, which improves rewards based on server performance covers a broader set of things. Not to mention it's rather hard to fairly credit healing to people. Like can you tell who gave who barrier? It still will favor AOE based damage dealers too. So what about those classes that don't cleave well?

 

Like I said, it's already obsolete and success based rewards are just more fair.

 

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

 

Again, as I mentioned. These Emblems are planned to be currency for tickets or something else. They will not be garbage. Soon™

 

I suppose, but I still doubt it's going to be worth my while. The only thing that stops me from deleting them is because you have to type.

Edited May 13, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[Custodio.6134]

30 minutes ago, anonymous.7812 said:

 

As I mentioned, average out the contribution based on damage, heals, boons, strips in a given fight, then award a shared pool of drops, and award kill credit for all enemies you helped kill based on that contribution. They already have the technology to give contribution based on boons and healing, but you still need to damage the enemy. They can remove that requirement just as a start, and just straight up give kill credit when you heal/boon up someone else that got kill credit.

 

 

Again, as I mentioned. These Emblems are planned to be currency for tickets or something else. They will not be garbage. Soon™

Sounds great, as long as it can be implemented that way. 
The game actually provides a lot of stats to the client already that could be considered for "fight participation". Just look into arcdps-data. 
-damage
-healing (even if arcdps can only track you, the game ofc goes way deeper than what we see in arc)
-condition cleanse
-boon strips/corrupts
-cc effects (and their counterpart-stunbreak)
-effect mitigation (e.g. bulwark-gyro, barrier,)
-boon uptime on allies

all of these are relevant factors in a fight (some are more important, some are less) and could be considered for loot participation.