May 11th feedback: healing mantras (recovery and solace)

[Kodama.6453]

So, looking through the boards here, I noticed that many people are not happy with the current state of the healing mantras for mesmer and firebrand. And it is quite obvious why, since their healing numbers are really low, because of the removal of the healing portion from preparing the mantra.

 

However, there is one aspect to this discussion which is oftenly overlooked in my opinion, but it definitely needs to get considered while discussing a rebalancing of these skills.

Mantra of recovery and solace both are now entirely instant casts.

 

Being instant cast can be quite a powerful aspect, especially for something essential like a healing skill.

You can't interrupt a skill that is instant cast in any way whatsoever. You also can't prevent an enemy to cast this skill by stunlocking them.

A healing skill which is instant cast is guaranteed to always get the healing through.

Which means that these 2 skills got all their counterplay completely removed from them. You can't stop enemies using them from getting their healing through. Best you can do is reducing it with poison, but that's it.

 

The healing mantras are currently the only healing skills in the game which can't get interrupted and also get casted while stunlocked.

As far as I am aware, there has just been 1 other heal skill in the history of this game which worked the same. It was the original medic gyro from scrapper.

Back then it turned out that it was quite powerful to have your healing skill guaranteed to work out, no matter what. You can trust me on that, I abused the hell out of that healing skill when it was still able to do that.

What happened to medic gyro? They added a cast time to it: 1/2 seconds, which means you can no longer cast it during CC and there is a chance to interrupt it, even if it is just a short time window.

 

So my proposal for the rebalance of the mantras is: add a cast time to them. I would suggest 1/2 second cast time for the healing mantras, just like they did with medic gyro.

This change would install counterplay to these healing skills, which lost all of it with the recent rework of the mantra mechanic.

If this happen, then Anet doesn't have to be afraid of these skills becoming too powerful and they can give them a nice bump to their healing output.

 

TL,DR: Add 1/2 seconds cast time to the healing mantras to give them counterplay, then you can safely buff the healing.

Edited May 12, 2021 by Kodama.6453

[Infusion.7149]

It's clearly an oversight.
People aren't that creative though, since you can technically run Merciful Intervention or traited meditations if you truly need a larger heal and aren't running Honor for heal on aegis.

Edited May 13, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Caitir.6947]

You already have counterplay to Solace: any attack that hits in quick succession or spamming out attacks. Aegis only blocks one single solitary hit per application of the boon. The heal Solace puts out is a pittance which can only be ameliorated by taking specific defensive traits, mostly just the one in Honor for healing on Aegis. So if you use the natural counters to Aegis then Solace just doesn't do much to help you. Medic Gyro being instant was far more notable because it had an actual sizable heal on it that you'd get immediately and then some healing over time afterward. If a FB isn't running Honor, they simply don't have that. They have to look to other utilities that are not their Heal skill to get any kind of healing they can rely on. What this translates into: You can only really run Solace if you're running some sort of bunker build that can afford to take Honor, like the prevalent Minstrels FB in WvW, otherwise, Solace is very lackluster in any PvP mode.

This change just means FB stays non-notable outside of WvW zerg fights. FB remains non-meta in PvP and WvW outside of zerging, and this change doesn't help. In sPvP even Core supports better than FB because at least it can survive, Core does Burn cheese better, DH does burn better, because they can also at least survive.

Edited May 13, 2021 by Caitir.6947

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Ahem:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infuse_Light

[Kodama.6453]

7 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Ahem:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infuse_Light

Alright, overlooked this one, because it is the follow up skill to one that has a cast time.

 

However, this one actually supports my claim. The heal from the skill itself is weak (1800), the most healing you get from being attacked during it, which has inherent counterplay, since the enemy can simply stop attacking. This is not true for the mantras.

[Kodama.6453]

8 hours ago, Caitir.6947 said:

You already have counterplay to Solace: any attack that hits in quick succession or spamming out attacks. Aegis only blocks one single solitary hit per application of the boon. The heal Solace puts out is a pittance which can only be ameliorated by taking specific defensive traits, mostly just the one in Honor for healing on Aegis. So if you use the natural counters to Aegis then Solace just doesn't do much to help you. Medic Gyro being instant was far more notable because it had an actual sizable heal on it that you'd get immediately and then some healing over time afterward. If a FB isn't running Honor, they simply don't have that. They have to look to other utilities that are not their Heal skill to get any kind of healing they can rely on. What this translates into: You can only really run Solace if you're running some sort of bunker build that can afford to take Honor, like the prevalent Minstrels FB in WvW, otherwise, Solace is very lackluster in any PvP mode.

This change just means FB stays non-notable outside of WvW zerg fights. FB remains non-meta in PvP and WvW outside of zerging, and this change doesn't help. In sPvP even Core supports better than FB because at least it can survive, Core does Burn cheese better, DH does burn better, because they can also at least survive.

You are missing my point.

 

I say that mantra of solace can't have a sizable heal, since it has no casting time and therefore no counterplay.

 

This is unrelated to the aegis it puts out. The aegis has counterplay, the healing has not. Medic gyro did nothing but heal and it had no counterplay, since you couldn't stop it from healing at all.

 

So if people want the healing numbers of mantra of solace and recovery buffed (as many people on the forum have said they want), then anet has to put a cast time on them first, because these skills can't be allowed to heal for much more as long as they don't have this cast time.

[Infusion.7149]

They could double or triple the cooldown and unsplit the base heal. The 2k or so heal isn't huge and even with Pure of Heart in Honor traitline the most you are likely to see is another couple hundred. The only thing I recall being strong with mantra of solace is rune of the flock which is 1K - 1.5K heal if you have healing power , as the internal cooldown is 10s on it and affords you greater survivability due to the vitality.

 

• mantra of solace heal in PvE = 1478+0.54*heal power
• mantra heal in WvW / PvP = 199+0.1* heal power
• Pure of heart (aegis proc) = 516+0.2*heal power in WvW  and 516+0.15* heal power in PvP
• flock rune  = 755+0.5* heal power

With unsplit base heal, full minstrel in WvW would total around 4K if you use flock rune and in PvP (with sage or avatar amulet) around 3K. It would still be a relatively small heal with the major balance consideration being how often you can put aegis out. Due to the ammo you could negate a burst in a similar fashion to Shelter, but for up to 5 people in the vicinity.

 

Monk's Focus traited meditations heal for 1470+0.4*heal power in competitive. That's roughly 2K even if you don't use Merciful Intervention as a utility.

Mind you Virtue of Resolve is instant and also roughly 2k heal (more in WvW due to PvE scaling) but on a 30s base cooldown. Vigorous Shouts makes warrior shouts heal for roughly that amount as well (~1.5K).

Edited May 14, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

4 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Alright, overlooked this one, because it is the follow up skill to one that has a cast time.

 

However, this one actually supports my claim. The heal from the skill itself is weak (1800), the most healing you get from being attacked during it, which has inherent counterplay, since the enemy can simply stop attacking. This is not true for the mantras.

I was just informing you is all.  The mantra heals still need more base healing, but you are correct that they cannot heal too much given that they are instant cast. 1k to 1.5k base should be enough.

[Buran.3796]

On 5/12/2021 at 8:23 PM, Kodama.6453 said:

So, looking through the boards here, I noticed that many people are not happy with the current state of the healing mantras for mesmer and firebrand.

  I don't known about the Mesmer, but I don't think much people are moaning about FB's mantras due even in PvE no one is using that garbage heal and in PvP most of Guardians aren't even using the Firebrand...  As a player which spents 99,99% of my PvP time between Rev and Guardian I care 0 about mantras (not even when I try a Firebrand build in unranked I do use mantras). So instant cast or 2 seconds cast, who cares? They are obsolete.

[WindBlade.8749]

On 5/15/2021 at 4:07 PM, Buran.3796 said:

  I don't known about the Mesmer, but I don't think much people are moaning about FB's mantras due even in PvE no one is using that garbage heal and in PvP most of Guardians aren't even using the Firebrand...  As a player which spents 99,99% of my PvP time between Rev and Guardian I care 0 about mantras (not even when I try a Firebrand build in unranked I do use mantras). So instant cast or 2 seconds cast, who cares? They are obsolete.

i don't know about pvp but in pve, you always use the fb mantra for healing because of the aegis spam that make you allow to ignore mechanics ....

[lodjur.1284]

On 5/14/2021 at 7:54 AM, Kodama.6453 said:

Alright, overlooked this one, because it is the follow up skill to one that has a cast time.

 

However, this one actually supports my claim. The heal from the skill itself is weak (1800), the most healing you get from being attacked during it, which has inherent counterplay, since the enemy can simply stop attacking. This is not true for the mantras.

1800+3 Sec of invulnerable with extremely good upside (the fact that it fullheals everytime against condi or when there's any amount of AoEs in the fight) apparently has inherent counterplay but aegis and extremely minor heal doesn't. Checks out.

 

If it got changed to instant cast 30 sec cd "Heal for 1000k" it would be a massive nerf to it lol

 

If infuse light is allowed to exist, then there's no other healing skills that even could be problematic. 

Edited May 27, 2021 by lodjur.1284