Scrapper buff is too timid to make a diffrence

[Kuma.1503]

2.5 seconds equates to an extra second at 100% boon duration. This means that using 5 skills off cooldown grants 25 seconds of quickness instead of 20. This still requires them to use most of their kit off cd in order to maintain the boon at max boon duration. Compare this to firebrand who can do it effortlessly at 30% boon duration with a fraction of their kit. 

 

The duration needs to be at least 3 seconds minimum. This would let them use more of their kit for utility instead of being forced to burn important cooldowns to maintain quickness.

 

For example, this would let us swap out a gyro for elixir gun. Currently, if you try running Egun, this will force you to use your Function Gyro off cooldown to maintain 100% quickness without alacrity (Asuming 100% boon duration). At 6 seconds per cast we could afford to use function gyro as a rez utility. 

 

There really is no need to be so afraid of buffing scrapper's numbers. It faces stiff competition from firebrand for the role of support or quickness dps. Currently firebrand still does nearly everything scrapper does but better with additional might, fury, aegis, and dps output. You have considerable wiggle room to add power without shaking up the meta. 

 

You could even buff the duration to 4 seconds and you would still see firebrand picked over them. 

Edited May 25, 2021 by Kuma.1503

[Obtena.7952]

You haven't considered Runes of the Chronomancer. Anyone building a real permaquickness build need to use these if they want a little flexibility in skills outside of wells. Also consider toolbelt skills and Tools GM as other sources of superspeed/quickness. Really, there isn't an argument for 'being picked over' by other classes. That's not dictated by game mechanics, that's people's prejudice to optimal play. 

[Jski.6180]

The fact that its still quinkness on super speed is the problem here. If anet wants to not lock scraper into running all of the super speed and be more flexible then there needs to be other means of applying quinkness then just super speed. If they say "stun gives aoe quickness" the aim of the scraper line that would fit a lot better. Or even just making it 2 sec on well start and 2 sec on well end would go a long way as "well" (hehe). Sadly there just not enofe super speed aoe effect to make it an support effect and give the scraper felxabitly in use.

[ThrakathNar.4537]

29 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

You haven't considered Runes of the Chronomancer. Anyone building a real permaquickness build need to use these if they want a little flexibility in skills outside of wells. Also consider toolbelt skills and Tools GM as other sources of superspeed/quickness. Really, there isn't an argument for 'being picked over' by other classes. That's not dictated by game mechanics, that's people's prejudice to optimal play. 

Chronomancer runes only apply quickness to the caster, meaning they're useless for group content (which is what Arena-Net wants the trait to be used for).

[Kuma.1503]

40 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

You haven't considered Runes of the Chronomancer. Anyone building a real permaquickness build need to use these if they want a little flexibility in skills outside of wells. Also consider toolbelt skills and Tools GM as other sources of superspeed/quickness. Really, there isn't an argument for 'being picked over' by other classes. That's not dictated by game mechanics, that's people's prejudice to optimal play. 

 

Rune of Chronomancer is personal quickness only. If it gave AoE quickness after using a well, that would be a game changer. 

 

Running Tools over Inventions comes at a significant cost to your healing output. You lose your cleansing synergy, you lose medical dispersion field (this is consistently your highest source of healing on the build), you lose +250 healing power when you have regeneration, and all you get in return is slightly higher quickness uptime thanks to a minor trait. Everything else in the traitline gives very little benefit. 

 

Tools gm trait, once again, is self quickness only. The only enhanced gadget that gives superspeed is rocket boots. Completely ignoring the problems that would come with trying to use rocket boots  to maintain quickness, it is also self quickness only. 

 

The point I was making when bringing up firebrand wasn't that they invalidate the build. It was that there really is no need to buff quickness scrapper so timidly. It's not going to break the game even if they doubled the quickness duration, because firebrand would still outclass them. 

 

Edited May 25, 2021 by Kuma.1503

[Obtena.7952]

4 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

 

The point I was making when bringing up firebrand wasn't that they invalidate the build. It was that there really is no need to buff quickness scrapper so timidly. It's not going to break the game even if they doubled the quickness duration, because firebrand would still outclass them. 

 

Sure ... and my point is that what Scrapper does is not impacted by how FB is designed. It's not 'timid' at all. If FB outclasses Scrapper and you want to play only optimal builds, then choose FB. If you like how Scrapper plays, you choose it. The choices are meaningful. 

Edited May 25, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Infusion.7149]

I'm surprised they didn't split the changes for WVW. Extremely shortsighted IMO.

With this change it makes scrappers more or less a staple if you run weavers or more than one scrapper as the med kit heal efficacy goes up with quickness uptime.

In PVE it would not be taken over firebrand due to the lack of reliable might/fury. That might be different in 10 man content where there isn't instakill mechanics (bulwark gyro sadness... see Mukluk's video where he gets one shot because people stand in Boneskinner fields) and another source of 10 man group fury (i.e. tempest, herald, etc).

Edited May 25, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Noah Salazar.5430]

compare to before wher you needed 100% boon dura for 4s

 

Now you need only

 

2,5s*60% boon dura = 4s

2,5s*80% boon dura = 4,5s

 

So now you can take more magi gear for more survabiliy and healing if your more pro at piano play

 

Don't forget that in party/raid seting you got acces to alac

 

uping quickness to 2,5s alowing you to take Firearms insted of alchemy to grab Pinpoint Distribution as you no need be that much depeneded for 240 concetration from it anymore

 

Might will give druid, and you will do 18-20 might witchout hgh so it's ok

 

 

Also Power Quick Dps will need less then 25% boon dura for perm aoe quick 

 

 

Edited May 25, 2021 by Noah Salazar.5430

[Kuma.1503]

Update! This buff was a lot bigger than it appears on paper. I suppose I should have mathed this out but this lets us drop 40% boon duration and achieve the same quickness uptime as pre patch. 

 

This may have just opened the door to power quickness scrapper builds? You can achieve 60% easily with full zerker armor and some diviner trinkets. Slap a concentration sigil on your hammer and you're good to go. You don't even need alchemy. 

 

I'm thinking of running a setup of Blast Gyro, Shredder, Med gyro (2 applications) Grenade Kit, and Stealth Gyro. 

 

Weapon sigils are concentration and force. 

 

This should be interesting. 

 

Edit: Seems Noah was 2 steps ahead of me

Edited May 26, 2021 by Kuma.1503

[Imba.9451]

5 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Update! This buff was a lot bigger than it appears on paper. I suppose I should have mathed this out but this lets us drop 40% boon duration and achieve the same quickness uptime as pre patch. 

 

This may have just opened the door to power quickness scrapper builds? You can achieve 60% easily with full zerker armor and some diviner trinkets. Slap a concentration sigil on your hammer and you're good to go. You don't even need alchemy. 

 

I'm thinking of running a setup of Blast Gyro, Shredder, Med gyro (2 applications) Grenade Kit, and Stealth Gyro. 

 

Weapon sigils are concentration and force. 

 

This should be interesting. 

I basically tried this before the patch. Used Diviner trinkets and Berserker Armor + Weapons, with +Boon Duration Sigil on my Hammer.

I wasn't really satisfied with the damage though. It still needs some better numbers. Even with Explosions and Firearms. I really do want it to work though, since I really love scrapper 😄

Edited May 26, 2021 by Imba.9451

[DragoTheWise.7256]

While 2.5s is an improvement, I think 3s would be better. I'll retest the two DPS builds I have setup (one power and one condi) but I was able to play around with the support scrapper with 100% boon uptime. Had my wife's character nearby to test the party quickness duration. The base 2.5s does allow some flexibility now as you don't need to spam function gyro as often, though you may need to still hit some of the other gyros/toolbelt skills on CD just to keep stable until you get a good moment to have an additional burst via function/heal. I think if we get the 3s, we could have the quickness uptime needed for a support scrapper to make better decisions on when to use their abilities for certain mechanics. For the DPS part of the house, it would free up a bit more in the stat realm to lower the needed boon duration to put points into DPS stats to be competitive with other boon/dps roles. 

[Noah Salazar.5430]

Quote

You can achieve 60% easily with full zerker armor and some diviner trinkets. Slap a concentration sigil on your hammer and you're good to go. You don't even need alchemy. 

 

Like i said you need around 25% boon dura if your taking 4 gyro

 

thats runes of pack+10% boon sigil

 

3s*7=21s

(4 gyro, 2 f skills)(med gyro proc 2 times)

 

and with alac your gyros got 16s cd 

you got only 1 skill with 24s, rest are less then 20s (with alac)

@Kuma.1503

 

you prob culd swap 1 gyro for granade kit

 

2,5s of quickness is prty good both in dps, and heal versions

 

as dps -> 31%

heal -> 60-80% despend did you want solo 25might or got druid/tempest help

 

if thay buff quick to 3s, power dps will need 0 boon dura for perm aoe quick

 

 

Edited May 27, 2021 by Noah Salazar.5430

[Jski.6180]

It is powerfully in wvw i must say even on dps builds! I still wish they did not tie it to super speed it feels very locked on your chose of game play and you can have perma effect for self only on a dps build with the right rune set up.

[DragoTheWise.7256]

I kinda hope that they will eventually change Gyroscopic Acceleration to be at the beginning of the gyro instead at the end just for the sake to make it more consistent since not all gyros end at the same amount of time. I believe this would also buff the quickness application without having to change the base quickness value.

 

Current PvE CDs, no alacrity, plus delay before superseed/quickness is applied for each gyro:

 

Blast Gyro- 25s CD, but another + 3s before superspeed/quickness application as gyro detonates after 3 seconds

Medic Gyro- 20s CD, but another + 5s before superspeed/quickness application to get through all pulses

Bulwark Gyro- 20s CD, but another + 5s before superspeed/quickness application to get through all pulses

Purge Gyro- 20s CD, but another +5s before superspeed/quickness application to get through all pulses

Shredder Gyro- 20s CD, but another +6s before superspeed/quickness application to get through all pulses

Sneak Gyro- 45s CD, but another +5s before superspeed/quickness application to get through all pulses

 

Half share the same CD and delay, the other half don't. At least we have the benefit that the skill goes on CD immediately after use. Would be nice to have them all line up at the beginning of the cast. But I guess we'll see how quickness scrapper unfolds. Either way, we can for sure have some fun with it.

Edited May 27, 2021 by DragoTheWise.7256

[Kodama.6453]

3 hours ago, DragoTheWise.7256 said:

I kinda hope that they will eventually change Gyroscopic Acceleration to be at the beginning of the gyro instead at the end just for the sake to make it more consistent since not all gyros end at the same amount of time. I believe this would also buff the quickness application without having to change the base quickness value.

 

Current PvE CDs, no alacrity, plus delay before superseed/quickness is applied for each gyro:

 

Blast Gyro- 25s CD, but another + 3s before superspeed/quickness application as gyro detonates after 3 seconds

Medic Gyro- 20s CD, but another + 5s before superspeed/quickness application to get through all pulses

Bulwark Gyro- 20s CD, but another + 5s before superspeed/quickness application to get through all pulses

Purge Gyro- 20s CD, but another +5s before superspeed/quickness application to get through all pulses

Shredder Gyro- 20s CD, but another +6s before superspeed/quickness application to get through all pulses

Sneak Gyro- 45s CD, but another +5s before superspeed/quickness application to get through all pulses

 

Half share the same CD and delay, the other half don't. At least we have the benefit that the skill goes on CD immediately after use. Would be nice to have them all line up at the beginning of the cast. But I guess we'll see how quickness scrapper unfolds. Either way, we can for sure have some fun with it.

On the other hand, this messes up superspeedapplication for medic gyro....

Medic gyro applies superspeed at cast already, since it is a healing skill and our minor trait gives group superspeed for using your healing skill.

 

Since superspeed doesn't stack (with the only exception being bandage self so far), this would mean that one superspeed overwrites the other, unless Anet hard codes this one as another exception.

[DragoTheWise.7256]

On 5/27/2021 at 3:12 AM, Kodama.6453 said:

On the other hand, this messes up superspeedapplication for medic gyro....

Medic gyro applies superspeed at cast already, since it is a healing skill and our minor trait gives group superspeed for using your healing skill.

 

Since superspeed doesn't stack (with the only exception being bandage self so far), this would mean that one superspeed overwrites the other, unless Anet hard codes this one as another exception.

That's true and something I forgot about since I don't play scrapper too often. I know that some folks would like to have superspeed tweaked a bit but I don't think superspeed will be seeing changes anytime in the future.