Suggestion: WvW Pip System Redesign

[Ernedar.2937]

Description:
I came back to this game after years of pause with idea in my mind about aquiring Legendary Armor. I was fine with that being grindy and longterm goal and it gave me some kind of goal in this game and drive to play it consistently. But after that I started counting. Now it is 6 months later and I must say I am exhausted about it and even thinking about abandoning that idea entirely and just do not go for WvW armors entirely.
Not because of timegate. Not because of scare of grinding materials and running in circles over and over and over. But because of sheer amount of time I am needed to dump into it. I am here to play and relax, not to go to second work for half time.

But I am not a person shaming devs and telling the game is bad and just bitching about it. So I thought about suggestion, how pip system might be more interesting for everybody.

A problem:
You see, according to global numbers through gw2mists.com and gw2efficiency.com, which are big helpers in whole farming in Guild Wars two, the average player level in WvW is around 200 tops.
That means you are getting 5 - 7 pips per 5 minutes in game, if we do not count that you are commanding or being on outnumbered map. More about that later.
For getting maximum efficiency every week of getting 365 tickets, which are the main timegate on Legendary and Ascended Gear in GW2 you need to go all way from wood to diamond chest, which is 1450 pips. I will not bother you with maths and give you this link, where mr. Greeny Neko made awesome work about opening your eyes how long you will need to get every ticket and how much time it will cost you.

I am personally rank 520+ now and I will presume that my server is not best of the best, I am on Aurora Glade and am proud of it, and I am normally getting 5 pips per 5 minutes of my time spent in WvW running around. That presumes I am not on Outnumbered map and I am not commanding group either. Just running with train and capping things here and there to have effective participation.

That means I need to spend 1450 minutes aka 24 hours and 10 minutes every week in WvW to get to diamond chest. 
Here some people will go and tell me that I should use boosters to pump my WvW EXP for bigger ranks, start commanding or try to catch Outnumbered maps.

That is problem number one. Outnumbered. At my level it will cut needed time to half if I will count I will spend all my time in WvW on outnumbered map. Through out 6 weeks I had in average 25% pips gained in outnumbered, and just for testing, I spend whole week just jumping from map to map to catch that status. And I ended up being bored in order to make progress.

You see, outnumbered means that there is not enough people to compete with other two servers on the map. That means less content. More deaths because of enemy roamers. Hard time getting participation intact and no fun at all.
Current system is pushing new players to sit on outnumbered maps to atleast do some progress. And I thing that is one thing which is rotten in here and needs to be changed.

Second is that time spent. I am not a student, I need to go to work, same as I presume more than 50% of population of this game. And an idea that after 8 hours of work or more every day during week I need to go and spend around 4 every day more behind computer to get my sweet legendary armor in next 30 weeks of play is hot even hilarious but horrible. And that is not counting you have girlfriend, kids or anything else like hobbies.

An idea of dedication:
WvW in Guild Wars 2 is for me about running with people, not standing in base and going for one near camp every 5 minutes to reset timer on participation, but this gamemode at its current state is not supporting  you in playing it, presuming that you are not a commander of group bigger than 10 people to grind more pips and do something.

It is not rewarding guild play, It is not rewarding going with commander and listen to him and make content.

WvW now is a tag and train behind it which is sometimes blindly rolling through maps to grind WXP for taking objectives.

My idea is that pips and rewards should be atleast tied in guilds and following / commanding a group.

The pip system redesign:
First of all, I do not have problem with timegate on amount of pips every week. It is fine. It will need some dedication for you and it is not bigger than going to raids or PvP for legendaries otherwise. My first assumption is that 365 week cap for pips will stay in place. The change I would like to present here is just for how much time you will spend to earn them.

Server ranking pips: 3 - 5 according to how good your server is. I am fine with this one. It is not gamemode breaking but it is adding a bit of favor when your server is doing work and it is good.

 

Outnumbered pips: Gain reduction from 5 to 3 pips. Here is why. Right now it is so big amount that some people are just slacking in maps and waiting for ticks to land just because for every person under lvl 619 it will double the amount of gain and reduce time spend in half. So current scenario is, I have GW2 opened, waiting in map. Every 5 minutes I will take a camp and reset the timer and in mean time I am doing something else entirely. It is boring, it should stop and it should not support people doing this. I totally understand why they are doing it tho. Current system is not friend to newcomers at all.

Commander pips: Now you gain 1 extra pip if you command group of 5+ and 3 more pips for group bigger than 10 people. There are some good commanders. I am trying to do it myself but people are sometimes really not responding to what commander is doing and trying to accomplish. On the other hand, I encountered commanders running like mad men and tagging up just because of grinding more pips trying to do nothing at all. My suggestion is that new pip gain will be 1 pip on 5+ people, 2 pips on 10+ people and 3 pips on 25+ people in squad.

Squad participation pips: This is entirely new. Why? Because right now, running in squad is not gaining you anything in matter of pips what so ever, especially if you are in PPT train. So how about you will gain 1 pip more for being part of squad and not commander at the same time? Sounds good? Ok. There is a catch. You will be eligable to get that pip if for last 5 minutes you have atleast 50% participation on objectives your commander attacked or do some work on. Idea behind this is that if group of people is consistent and listening to commander, doing work for server, it should be rewarded too. This should ideally reduce people being just in squad for sake of it and running elsewhere than squad with commander is.

 

Guild run pips: One of the best actions in WvW is when you are part of guild run, on voice with your people and doing battles against another guild. But right now it is done just for fun, with no gain other than kills and WXP. So how about you will gain 1 more pip if you are part of squad of atleast 5 people from your guild (or maybe Alliance in future) for last 5 minutes? Would that be nice? And if you are party of 5 roamers from same guild, you will gain it too. 

Gamemode weekly participation pips: Truth to be said THIS is the biggest pain for me right now. For last six weeks I grinded diamond chests to have biggest amount of tickets possible only just to came back on friday afternoon and start per 5 pips again from start. It is not even bad. It is exhausting. This is the main problem here according to my opinion. There is no reward for new players jumping the train hyped just to be smashed out of that train because it is endless hamster wheel of grind with so little gain. That needs to be changed. Right now you gain +1 pip if you finished atleast wooden chest last week. So if I am really lazy, I will go in WvW to finish wooden chest every week gaining smashing 17 tickets a week when one piece of Ascended armor costs 175 minimum. I must say I would rather go PvE and grind materials to craft it at that point.
So. How about you will get +1 pip for every finished chest type? That means, for wooden +1, for bronze +2, for silver +3 etc. Will that make you go back and try to pump more time in to it? And how about newcomers? First week I will do wooden chest. I tried, I liked it, I did not have time for it. Next week I realized I can get more. So I ended on Gold and in week three on friday, I am gaining 3 pips for my server being last, 4 pips for gold chest and 0 for being newcomer and did not reach 150 level yet.

An Example:
Right now, our guild is doing two guild runs for 2 hours per week. Some of us have children, and other things to do, which are needed to be done instead of playing this game. Welcome to adulthood. 
Lets take me in to account. 520 rank, I have only those 4 hours I can spend playing and chatting with friend on Discord when rolling through the map. And am on Aurora Glade which normally take 3 pips per 5 minutes because of placement.
4 hours of play in WvW means 48 ticks of gain pips. 3 per placement, 1 for my level, 1 for participation last week. 240 pips a week. And I cannot do more. No legendary armor, because you need 6x1095 + 2620 pips if you want shiny variation or 6x1095 + 1310 if you will be ok with non-shiny variation of your armor. That means 7880 tickets for non-shiny armor. 17 +25 tickets gained for wooden and silver chest. Legendary armor is not gonna happen at this point.

 

With new system? We will get same predispositions. So. For my 48 tick I can play, I will get 3 pips for placement, 1 pip for my level, 2 pips because I made Bronze box last week, 1 pip for squad participation and 1 pip for guild run. This is second week of me going to guild runs. I am gaining 8 pips per tick. Means 8*48=384 pips in total. that is almost finished silver chest ( 11 pips missing). So I will scribe myself 10 minutes more with guild run and I will finish Silver chest too. Yay. Accomplishment. I gained 40 +25 +17 tickets in total this week. So If I will not pump that 10 minutes more I will still be on finished bronze next week. And every week after. That means 7880 / 82 = 96 weeks for legendary parts with tickets, but my shiny ascended armor is just 2620 and that means in 30 weeks I can do it.
Now.
What if I pumped those more 10 minutes in and finished the the silver chest. Next week I am gaining 3 per server, 1 per level, 3 per participation, 1 per squad and 1 per guild. 9 pips in total per 5 minutes spent. 9*48= 432 that is wooden, bronze and silver chest this week, but almost 9 more tickets, if I do 5 minutes more, because of gold chest. 91 tickets gained and now, my 10 more minutes last week and 5 more minutes this week gave me an idea that if I spend 5 minutes more participating every week I can spare 1 week of grinding for my shiny ascended armor just because 2620 / 91 is  29 and not 30. And if I spare one more our this week I can even finish Gold chest.

See I presume this will not degrade the gain of legendary armor grind. You will be still be awarded 365 tickets per week. But in total it will mean that first week I will grind myself to hell to do diamond chest and will go whole weekend and spend those 30 hours in WvW. But next week? I will gain 3 for server, 1 for level, 7 pips for diamond chest. That is 11 per tick. 1450 / 11 is 132 ticks. 11 hours of grind. through out the week.

I can imagine that might be atleast more reachable for lot of people.
And for me? I will still go for my diamond chest ideally. But right now, this change will give me an option to discover more of this game than just WvW.

If you read this up to this point, thank you. Hope this will make some impact.


 

[Dawdler.8521]

When I made legendary armor sets I had no grind for them. I played like normal, not even thinking about it. Then one day I thought "hm, might as well look if I have enough mats". Yep, enough. Just recently I made 6 legendary runes too and it took about a week extra to get those tokens you have to jump around all over the world for - I only had enough mats to get like 2/3rds instantly.

 

People give way too much thought into farming something they think they need now now now when they could just be enjoying the game. There is little need to complicate the pip system.

Edited June 3, 2021 by Dawdler.8521

[Sarrs.4831]

Yeah you don't really need any of the stuff that the pips give you. They're just gravy. Honestly I don't really care to go past Gold; the Grandmaster Token shards and the Warlord's chest are the bulk of the reward. The Mystic Coins aren't worth jack compared to any other PvE gold farm.

 

I'd also say if you really want to get Legendary armor for the utility(seems a bit much to me, but you do you), you may as well take the PvE route. Slap together some Asc gear and slap about the HoT era raids with a training group.

Edited June 3, 2021 by Sarrs.4831

[Manasa Devi.7958]

2 minutes ago, Sarrs.4831 said:

Yeah you don't really need any of the stuff that the pips give you. They're just gravy. Honestly I don't really care to go past Gold; the Grandmaster Token shards and the Warlord's chest are the bulk of the reward. The Mystic Coins aren't worth jack compared to any other PvE gold farm.

 

I'd also say if you really want to get Legendary armor for the utility(seems a bit much to me, but you do you), you may as well take the PvE route. Slap together some Asc gear and slap about the HoT era raids with a training group.

See, tickets are the only thing WvW offers that still has any point for me as a reward. I've exhausted all unique reward track rewards, and I've got all the WxP I'll ever need. And you're right, PvE is much more lucrative, which is why I play PvE when I'm really playing, and some AFK/WvW camp capturing once every 10 minutes when I'm at my PC but not really in the mood for playing.

 

It's how the game is set up right now. Pro-active play offers me nothing more than what lackadaisical play does. I used to play WvW for fun, but I got bored with it about 1,000 levels ago. I got most of my levels before there was such a thing as skirmish tickets, so I had quite a lot of tickers to go when I started this playing style. It's a shame they didn't do something similar with tickets as with the backlogged level up chests back in the day, I'd have to spend a lot less time AFKing at spawn.

 

Grandmaster token shards are a joke, btw, with their 67 weeks minimum to get a full ascended armor set.

[Sarrs.4831]

Just now, Manasa Devi.7958 said:

Pro-active play offers me nothing more than what lackadaisical play does.

I actually really enjoy WvW for what it is, to me: you turn your brain off and you do loops around the map capping camps. It's kinda zen.

[XenesisII.1540]

So you want to add zerg pips? Don't really agree. I don't think bonus pips should be isolated to certain play style groups, and zerging groups certainly don't need more easy rewards.

 

I do think they should bring down rank ranges for pips, while making it faster to level.

I think the outnumbered pips is fine as is.

I think they should probably expand the commitment(loyalty) pip, so if you finished wood previous week you get +1, if you finished bronze +2, if you finished silver +3. Three is probably enough.

 

I also still don't like the double time gate on wvw currency, tickets and memories, and while technically memories isn't gated as you can just keep getting more through the tracks, it's still a pitiful amount that has managed to shoot the prices way higher than it's pvp counterpart.

 

Edited June 3, 2021 by XenesisII.1540

[DemonSeed.3528]

I still want them to add a Warlord weapon box at the end of gold skirmish chest or something, so newer players can have a goal to keep aiming for and keep playing.

 

PS - @Manasa Devi.7958 I like seeing the word lackadaisical being used, it's a rarity.

[reddie.5861]

farming? i never ever get diamond chest (yes i should easily get it) and i got my self full legendary set from wvw including backpack and the ring..
u play for ur joy? or u play to get kitten legendary? ascended will be equally good as legendary u know that right?
there no need to do things u dont enjoy doing..


tho if it was up to me id give every1 free legendary armor in WvW (kinda like sPvP system) put stats u like and go smash people..
i never understood GW2 at that point, WvW has 0 impact on PvE stuff why cant they add WvW system give every1 free legendaries useable only in WvW.

[Shroud.2307]

I appreciate the effort you put in to thinking this through and considering different activities even if you don't participate in them.

I am not at all trying to demean your work, but personally as a WvW veteran, I think Pips and Reward Tracks were a mistake.

I'd prefer something more like this.

1. Every week you're awarded with x2 Exotic gear chests, one Weapon, one Armor, your selection of type and stats, can be salvaged. This does not account for play time or any other metric. Enter WvW at any time after a match ends, there you go.
2.  All NPC's only drop Unidentified Gear with Champions having a higher chance of dropping Rare Unidentified Gear.
3.  Increase chances for Players to drop Heavy Loot Bags
4. Allow Skirmish Vendor to accept a certain number of Emblem Of The Avenger, Badge Of Honor, Testimony Of Heroic, and Exotic Gear to convert it to Ascended Gear.
5. Allow Skirmish Vendor to accept a certain number of Emblem Of The Avenger, Emblem Of The Conquerer, Gift Of Battle, Badge Of Honor, Testimony Of Heroic, and Ascended Gear to convert it to Legendary Gear.

No more Pips, no more Reward Tracks, no bonuses for winning the match, no increased gain for Outnumbered. This makes it so that anyone can enter WvW at any time each week and get a free piece of Exotic (that can be salvaged for materials if they wish), removes time investment for those who don't want to stay, and for those who do offers the option to obtain both Ascended (Weapon and Armor) and Legendary (Armor only) without leaving WvW at all. 

This means; if you want to get things like Dungeon tokens you need to do either PvP or PvE. If you want a Legendary Weapon you'll need to do PvE. NPC's will be more profitable but not so much so that it will encourage ktraining any more heavily than it currently is. Materials will not clutter your bags unless you salvage the gear that drops or open Heavy Loot Bags. And you will be able to get Legendary Armor without crafting a single thing so long as you meet the required threshold of items needed to trade to the Vendor. Perhaps a significant enough price that it requires at least a couple months of WvW participation, but none that will reward you for being afk or not contributing to your World. In and out for gear, stay for currency (Badges, Tokens, GoB) to upgrade gear.

Edited June 3, 2021 by Shroud.2307

[Justine.6351]

You don't need to get diamond chest every week. You can start with that.

 

Legendary gear isn't going to make you enjoy the game any more than ascended unless you like gear swapping all the time but even then you can just get more ascended sets. Enjoy the game first and worry about grinding something when you get closer.

[XenesisII.1540]

1 hour ago, Shroud.2307 said:

I'd prefer something more like this.

1. Every week you're awarded with x2 Exotic gear chests, one Weapon, one Armor, your selection of type and stats, can be salvaged. This does not account for play time or any other metric. Enter WvW at any time after a match ends, there you go.
2.  All NPC's only drop Unidentified Gear with Champions having a higher chance of dropping Rare Unidentified Gear.
3.  Increase chances for Players to drop Heavy Loot Bags
4. Allow Skirmish Vendor to accept a certain number of Emblem Of The Avenger, Badge Of Honor, Testimony Of Heroic, and Exotic Gear to convert it to Ascended Gear.
5. Allow Skirmish Vendor to accept a certain number of Emblem Of The Avenger, Emblem Of The Conquerer, Gift Of Battle, Badge Of Honor, Testimony Of Heroic, and Ascended Gear to convert it to Legendary Gear.

No more Pips, no more Reward Tracks, no bonuses for winning the match, no increased gain for Outnumbered. This makes it so that anyone can enter WvW at any time each week and get a free piece of Exotic (that can be salvaged for materials if they wish), removes time investment for those who don't want to stay, and for those who do offers the option to obtain both Ascended (Weapon and Armor) and Legendary (Armor only) without leaving WvW at all. 

This means; if you want to get things like Dungeon tokens you need to do either PvP or PvE. If you want a Legendary Weapon you'll need to do PvE. NPC's will be more profitable but not so much so that it will encourage ktraining any more heavily than it currently is. Materials will not clutter your bags unless you salvage the gear that drops or open Heavy Loot Bags. And you will be able to get Legendary Armor without crafting a single thing so long as you meet the required threshold of items needed to trade to the Vendor. Perhaps a significant enough price that it requires at least a couple months of WvW participation, but none that will reward you for being afk or not contributing to your World. In and out for gear, stay for currency (Badges, Tokens, GoB) to upgrade gear.

 

Eh sorry man but that's a big No from me, I want combat to go back like it was in 2012, not the reward system. You also mention not rewarding you for being afk or contributing to your world, and yet also suggest to hand over rewards for just stepping one time after a match ends, you're going from afking to not even contributing to a match to get rewards.

 

PvE/WvW/Spvp are completely separate end game areas in which many players only wish to play in one of the three, so they should have their own ways to earn gear and gold and not be completely forced into mainly PvE to function in the other two.

 

You can take out dungeon tokens if they fully put in dungeon sigils/runes in WvW or Spvp, it's the only reason to use those tracks as well as the gifts for legendary weapons. It's surprisingly actually that they put the HoT and PoF sigils and runes up on the Heroics vendor but not the dungeon ones.

 

[Shroud.2307]

4 minutes ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

 

Eh sorry man but that's a big No from me, I want combat to go back like it was in 2012, not the reward system. You also mention not rewarding you for being afk or contributing to your world, and yet also suggest to hand over rewards for just stepping one time after a match ends, you're going from afking to not even contributing to a match to get rewards.

 

PvE/WvW/Spvp are completely separate end game areas in which many players only wish to play in one of the three, so they should have their own ways to earn gear and gold and not be completely forced into mainly PvE to function in the other two.

 

You can take out dungeon tokens if they fully put in dungeon sigils/runes in WvW or Spvp, it's the only reason to use those tracks as well as the gifts for legendary weapons. It's surprisingly actually that they put the HoT and PoF sigils and runes up on the Heroics vendor but not the dungeon ones.

 

Stepping in and stepping out for rewards is better than taking up Q slots or waiting around doing nothing. I don't see how that's an issue. Login Rewards already exist.

[XenesisII.1540]

2 minutes ago, Shroud.2307 said:

Stepping in and stepping out for rewards is better than taking up Q slots or waiting around doing nothing. I don't see how that's an issue. Login Rewards already exist.

 

Yeah login rewards already exist, don't need to add to it while trying to fully replace a system that provides even more rewards.

Q slot, on what reset night? in prime time? in stacked T1? we should completely abolish the reward system for a couple hand outs at the end of the week to people who don't even play the mode, for a couple people that go afk for various reasons? I'd rather they shorten the afk timer and kicked players that autorun in one spot for too long.

 

[Cyninja.2954]

6 hours ago, Justine.6351 said:

You don't need to get diamond chest every week. You can start with that.

 

Legendary gear isn't going to make you enjoy the game any more than ascended unless you like gear swapping all the time but even then you can just get more ascended sets. Enjoy the game first and worry about grinding something when you get closer.

 

This.

 

All I see in TCs post is a player focused on rewards solely. News flash from someone who has been playing a ton of WvW the last 3 years (and minor corrections to misrepresented issues in the original post) starting from rank 300 back then:

 

1. if you focus on ONLY getting Diamond chest as your sole reason to play WvW, you are already half a foot out the door. Just take the step and leave because any argument based around this is imo worthless. Doesn't mean I disagree with arguments about better reward distribution, but if the sole reason is the reward, you lost my interest in your argument right then and there

 

2. the common misconception that players who are high rank automatically leave WvW once they finish Diamond chest at the end of the weekend. Yes, some players farmed a ton of WxP on EotM. That was AGES ago given EotM has become nothing more than a glorified GvG map for years (even before I went fully active in WvW). Most high rank ACTIVE players have spent a significant time with this game mode outside of EotM (doing varying things from K-trains, to blobing, to small squads, etc.). If you think that a player still cares about tickets past rank 2k or 3k to go through "farming" specifically tickets, you are delusional (and most likely not very active in your server WvW community). The players I know who are active with ranks 2k+ in general have WvW as a main part of their gaming schedule, or they take a full break. The reason they show up or not is not for tickets, but content (I have over 23k tickets by now and I completely do not care, never did).

 

3. this idea that rewards should be balanced around short term participation bursts for a game mode which literally thrives on players building communities over long periods of time. This is even brought up indirectly with mentioning commanders. Popular commanders don't pop out of the ground like shrooms, they grow over time and if they provide content others enjoy (yes, CONTENT, that is literally what some good commanders consider themselves as: content providers to others) they will build up a reputation.

 

4. the outnumbered system is a band-aid fix to a far more complex problem. Most people seem not to realize what outnumbered is actually meant to do. Here is a hint: it's not meant to simply increase rewards to a lower population server/map. It's to incentivize player interaction on specific maps (with little activity from one or more sides) in an attempt to bind larger numbers of a dominating server on that map while a far smaller amount of players of a smaller represented server provides a minimal amount of content (even if it is just objective flipping). Without this, the larger server would eventually leave the map and create even bigger issues on other maps. It's highly flawed, it incentivizes weak game play interactions, it is absolutely necessary to reduce the current population issues temporarily.

 

TL;DR:

another "I want this changed to better suite my personal play-style and maximize my rewards" thread. Of just as much value to players who play the game mode primarily for the game mode and not the reward as all the other threads of this type: near none.

Edited June 4, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[Manasa Devi.7958]

8 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

2. the common misconception that players who are high rank automatically leave WvW once they finish Diamond chest at the end of the weekend. Yes, some players farmed a ton of WxP on EotM. That was AGES ago given EotM has become nothing more than a glorified GvG map for years (even before I went fully active in WvW). Most high rank ACTIVE players have spent a significant time with this game mode outside of EotM (doing varying things from K-trains, to blobing, to small squads, etc.). If you think that a player still cares about tickets past rank 2k or 3k to go through "farming" specifically tickets, you are delusional (and most likely not very active in your server WvW community). The players I know who are active with ranks 2k+ in general have WvW as a main part of their gaming schedule, or they take a full break. The reason they show up or not is not for tickets, but content (I have over 23k tickets by now and I completely do not care, never did).

I'm well over rank 2k, and I'm out as soon as I hit diamond. I still need thousands of tickets to complete what I started. Like I stated in my earlier post, I got the major portion of my rank before there were pips and tickets. WvW has become stale and boring to me. I'll happily semi-afk and cap camps to get my rewards, I'm not complaining. This is the game ANet created, and I play it to satisfy my wants the way that works best for me. If they implement more pro-active ways to either get tickets, or the rewards they buy me in some other way, I'll happily play that. As it is right now, active WvW play is a waste of time for me. It's not as enjoyable to me as some other activities, and there are no rewards at all that I care for, so my real game time goes into those different activities, and my "at the PC but not really playing" time goes into lazy ticket farming. A few more months of that, and I'm out of WvW completely, until they change it in some way as to rekindle my interest.

[Cyninja.2954]

11 minutes ago, Manasa Devi.7958 said:

I'm well over rank 2k, and I'm out as soon as I hit diamond. I still need thousands of tickets to complete what I started. Like I stated in my earlier post, I got the major portion of my rank before there were pips and tickets. WvW has become stale and boring to me. I'll happily semi-afk and cap camps to get my rewards, I'm not complaining. This is the game ANet created, and I play it to satisfy my wants the way that works best for me. If they implement more pro-active ways to either get tickets, or the rewards they buy me in some other way, I'll happily play that. As it is right now, active WvW play is a waste of time for me. It's not as enjoyable to me as some other activities, and there are no rewards at all that I care for, so my real game time goes into those different activities, and my "at the PC but not really playing" time goes into lazy ticket farming. A few more months of that, and I'm out of WvW completely, until they change it in some way as to rekindle my interest.

Which is perfectly fine (or unfortunate in this case), so 2 questions:

 

1. Would a change in the reward system change your opinion about current WvW? I would assume not given it simply changes the how the rewards are distributed at a lower WvW rank end. The major shifts in WvW and how it is played happen via balance updates.

 

2. Why should this game modes reward-system be altered to appease players who are not enjoying the game mode?

 

Seems to me your are rather burned out on WvW or do not enjoy the shape it has taken unrelated to the reward structure. You are projecting this on the reward structure because you assume your burn out will somehow miraculously disappear if the loot rolls in somehow differently. It won't. At best it would rekindle your interested for a few days until you realize that it's still the same old.

 

The fact that you are still "grinding" out your tickets while being burnt out should literally make alarm bells go off in your head. It also reveals the only reason you are even interacting with WvW in the first place: some sense of "needing" the rewards (where your approach is no different than TCs unrelated to your or his WvW rank). The healthy approach would be to take a break and come back some time in the future.

Edited June 4, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[Infusion.7149]

The joke is 10K rank you get a green and a blue.

If you're 500ish rank you should be complaining about the fact that you don't have max WvW masteries until 1226.

If you're complaining about pips , then you should probably just disregard diamond chest and play as much or as little as you want to.

P.S. I have long said the grandmaster mark shards should not even exist , there should be a replacement of grandmaster mark shards with grandmaster marks.

Edited June 4, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Manasa Devi.7958]

 

1 minute ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

1. Would a change in the reward system change your opinion about current WvW? I would assume not given it simply changes the how the rewards are distributed at a lower WvW rank end. The major shifts in WvW and how it is played happen via balance updates.

If active play gave the rewards I want in addition to the rewards it gives now, it would make it worth the time. I'd go for that. I wouldn't need to look at my other screen every few minutes to watch timers while I'm doing other things at my PC, and that would be worth something as well.

 

1 minute ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

2. Why should this game modes reward-system be altered to appease players who are not enjoying the game mode?

Maybe because not only bored players would enjoy it? I'm perfectly fine doing what I'm doing for a few more months. If a different reward system presents itself before that time, I'd be even more fine with that. I don't expect it to happen in that timeframe though, if ever.

 

6 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Seems to me your are rather burned out on WvW or do not enjoy the shape it has taken unrelated to the reward structure. You are projecting this on the reward structure because you assume your burn out will somehow miraculously disappear if the loot rolls in somehow differently. It won't. At best it would rekindle your interested for a few days until you realize that it's still the same old.

I haven't commented on the reward structure or expressed a desire for changes. I'm not burned out on WvW either, I just lost interest. Years ago, slow decline, because of cumulative changes.

 

9 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

The fact that you are still "grinding" out your tickets while being burnt out should literally make alarm bells go off in your head. It also reveals the only reason you are even interacting with WvW in the first place: some sense of "needing" the rewards. The healthy approach would be to take a break and come back some time in the future.

I'm not grinding. Grinding implies effort and let me assure you, I don't exert any effort at all. I do as little as I can get away with, with my real attention focused on different, more enjoyable things. Also, I don't need the rewards, I want the rewards and going for them doesn't take time away from anything else. A few days ago for example, I was listening to a rather long podcast and occasionally googling things that came up. I didn't miss a word. If you run the same route to the same camp and kill the same NPCs in the same manner often enough, it'll take only the smallest bit of your attention away from other things.

[Cyninja.2954]

20 minutes ago, Manasa Devi.7958 said:

 

If active play gave the rewards I want in addition to the rewards it gives now, it would make it worth the time. I'd go for that. I wouldn't need to look at my other screen every few minutes to watch timers while I'm doing other things at my PC, and that would be worth something as well.

If you were enjoying active play, you'd be actively playing right now. You said it yourself, you are done once you hit diamond. You'd hit diamond slower, but you'd be enjoying yourself.

 

Stop blaming a system which has nothing to do with you not enjoying the game mode. That's why I saidL you are burnt out and it has nothing to do with the current implementation of the pip system. On the contrary, chances are high that if this system was actually changed to require more active play, you'd leave even sooner because your lack of enjoyment is NOT pip related.

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Maybe because not only bored players would enjoy it? I'm perfectly fine doing what I'm doing for a few more months. If a different reward system presents itself before that time, I'd be even more fine with that. I don't expect it to happen in that timeframe though, if ever.

 

I haven't commented on the reward structure or expressed a desire for changes. I'm not burned out on WvW either, I just lost interest. Years ago, slow decline, because of cumulative changes.

Okay, then don't call it burn out, call it loss of interest or what ever peaks your personal definition of you not enjoying the mode.

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I'm not grinding. Grinding implies effort and let me assure you, I don't exert any effort at all. I do as little as I can get away with, with my real attention focused on different, more enjoyable things. Also, I don't need the rewards, I want the rewards and going for them doesn't take time away from anything else. A few days ago for example, I was listening to a rather long podcast and occasionally googling things that came up. I didn't miss a word. If you run the same route to the same camp and kill the same NPCs in the same manner often enough, it'll take only the smallest bit of your attention away from other things.

Grinding does not involve effort. It is just a term for repeating a task over and over which a player perceives as tedious (or not depending on how they stand on this or if they would consider grinding an enjoyment). Effort is not a requirement.

Edited June 4, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[Manasa Devi.7958]

1 minute ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

If you were enjoying active play, you'd be actively playing right now. You said it yourself, you are done once you hit diamond. You'd hit diamond slower, but you'd be enjoying yourself.

Actually, I rarely hit diamond. I'm happy to hit gold most weeks. Here's some news for you: people do things they don't enjoy but don't really mind doing if the rewards are there. The game is riddled with them. Do you think people enjoy all their daily routines in this game? There are basically 3 types of activity: things you enjoy, things you can take or leave, and things you dislike. The first I'll play regardless of any reward, the second I'll play if the rewards are good, the third I won't play regardless of the rewards. WvW falls in the second category for me. I won't play it for no relevant reward at all, like it is now. Most of the lucrative activities fall in the second category for most people.

 

1 minute ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Stop blaming a system which has nothing to do with you not enjoying the game mode which you are directly responsible for.

I haven't blamed the system at any point. I'm actually quite happy there's a system in place that lets me get what I want without any effort at all. How am I responsible for the things that made me stop enjoying WvW? I have nothing to do with its development.

 

[Cyninja.2954]

 

14 minutes ago, Manasa Devi.7958 said:

Actually, I rarely hit diamond. I'm happy to hit gold most weeks. Here's some news for you: people do things they don't enjoy but don't really mind doing if the rewards are there. The game is riddled with them. Do you think people enjoy all their daily routines in this game? There are basically 3 types of activity: things you enjoy, things you can take or leave, and things you dislike. The first I'll play regardless of any reward, the second I'll play if the rewards are good, the third I won't play regardless of the rewards. WvW falls in the second category for me. I won't play it for no relevant reward at all, like it is now. Most of the lucrative activities fall in the second category for most people.

So you are happy to hit gold most weeks, yet not even 1 hour ago:

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1 hour ago, Manasa Devi.7958 said:

I'm well over rank 2k, and I'm out as soon as I hit diamond.

 

I can only go and interpret what you are trying to say based on what you are saying or providing in information to your game play.

 

So either you are not the target demographic I was talking about, players who immediately stop once they complete the diamond chest, or the reward system is working as intended but you are unhappy with the amount of reward you are getting.

 

If all you want is the reward first and foremost, the current system is the best thing you can ask for. If you want more enjoyment from the mode, then start playing for the content and not the reward. You'll end up with more of a reward total in the end even when not optimizing pip gain because both your subjective perception of the game play will change (and boredom is known cause perception of time passed to slow) as well as time spent on the content will increase.

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I haven't blamed the system at any point. I'm actually quite happy there's a system in place that lets me get what I want without any effort at all. How am I responsible for the things that made me stop enjoying WvW? I have nothing to do with its development.

 

There are a ton of things which one personally can do or not do which affect enjoyment. Here are some strait off the top of my head:

1. Have you been overplaying the content in the past? For example there was a bonus WxP week just 2 weeks ago. A lot of players overindulged in WvW. Some of those are now taking a break or taking things slower. Taking appropriate time necessary to keep content fresh is a personal responsibility and that includes taking breaks if necessary.

 

2. What are ones ties to the game mode? As in how and which type of interactions does one foster and grow. Are you part of an active guild (if not, joining one or finding like minded players can greatly grow ones personal enjoyment)? Has a guild grown inactive (in which case it might be time to find a new one)? 

 

3. Have you tried altering the things you do? There is a ton of different approaches to WvW and how to play within that game mode.

 

Ever heard of the phrase:"What you put in is what you get out"? This not only applies to Newtons 3rd law but to a vast amount of things we do in every part of our life. If all you put into a game mode is the bare minimum for some reward, that's what you will get out: the bare minimum and some reward.

Edited June 4, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[Manasa Devi.7958]

38 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

 

So you are happy to hit gold most weeks, yet not even 1 hour ago:

 

I can only go and interpret what you are trying to say based on what you are saying or providing in information to your game play.

 

So either you are not the target demographic I was talking about, players who immediately stop once they complete the diamond chest, or the reward system is working as intended but you are unhappy with the amount of reward you are getting.

 

If all you want is the reward first and foremost, the current system is the best thing you can ask for. If you want more enjoyment from the mode, then start playing for the content and not the reward. You'll end up with more of a reward total in the end even when not optimizing pip gain because both your subjective perception of the game play will change (and boredom is known cause perception of time passed to slow) as well as time spent on the content will increase.

There are a ton of things which one personally can do or not do which affect enjoyment. Here are some strait off the top of my head:

1. Have you been overplaying the content in the past? For example there was a bonus WxP week just 2 weeks ago. A lot of players overindulged in WvW. Some of those are now taking a break or taking things slower. Taking appropriate time necessary to keep content fresh is a personal responsibility and that includes taking breaks if necessary.

 

2. What are ones ties to the game mode? As in how and which type of interactions does one foster and grow. Are you part of an active guild (if not, joining one or finding like minded players can greatly grow ones personal enjoyment)? Has a guild grown inactive (in which case it might be time to find a new one)? 

 

3. Have you tried altering the things you do? There is a ton of different approaches to WvW and how to play within that game mode.

 

Ever heard of the phrase:"What you put in is what you get out"? This not only applies to Newtons 3rd law but to a vast amount of things we do in every part of our life. If all you put into a game mode is the bare minimum for some reward, that's what you will get out: the bare minimum and some reward.

Why do you have a problem with me having no problem with WvW as it is right now? Yes, I'm happy to hit gold most weeks because most weeks I can't spend enough time to get there or further. Sometimes I have more time to spend and I manage to get to diamond. After that, continuing on is pointless, so I don't. Simple, right? It also helps when I can sit on Outnumbered for the entire time I'm online, which happened 2 weeks in a row now. With ticks of 13+ all the time, it's easier to get higher reward levels. I've never actively played when an event was happening, the only event I played for was the tournament and that was many years ago.

 

As to your questions:

 

1) I've never overplayed WvW at any point. I started it when the game was young and played a few hours every week. More at times when the mood struck me. I gradually lost interest until I just didn't play it at all anymore for a while. Most updates, particularly the introduction of elite specs, made the mode worse for me. It never gets better, just more annoying. I remember when the meta was all about huge flashing orange circles. I couldn't bother to even log on back then.

 

2) The most active guild I've ever been a part of had 3 active players, me included, all RL friends.. I'm not a social gamer, and never will be. When I get behind the PC it's to get away from social things. I have my offline life to be social and I don't need a second life online.

 

3) I just don't like WvW anymore. I give active play a shot once every few months, but it's just not worth it. Poor rewards for doing something that doesn't come close to the things I enjoy doing in the game. Not happening. Nothing I can do will change my feelings on that, something will have to change with the game. If they somehow change the rewards to be more appealing to me, I'll start actively playing again, with the same enthousiasm as harvesting my home instance, and I'll be done when I hit my goals. As long as semi-AFKing is the best use of my time to get the rewards I want, that's what I'll do. Again, something more meaningful than just the rewards has to change for me to enjoy WvW again.

 

That phrase "What you put in is what you get out" doesn't apply here. I put next to nothing in, and I get out of it more than I would have any right to in a well-designed game.

Edited June 4, 2021 by Manasa Devi.7958

[Cyninja.2954]

9 minutes ago, Manasa Devi.7958 said:

Why do you have a problem with me having no problem with WvW as it is right now?

I don't.

9 minutes ago, Manasa Devi.7958 said:

 

Yes, I'm happy to hit gold most weeks because most weeks I can't spend enough time to get there or further. Sometimes I have more time to spend and I manage to get to diamond. After that, continuing on is pointless, so I don't. Simple, right? It also helps when I can sit on Outnumbered for the entire time I'm online, which happened 2 weeks in a row now. With ticks of 13+ all the time, it's easier to get higher reward levels. I've never actively played when an event was happening, the only event I played for was the tournament and that was many years ago.

 

As to your questions:

 

1) I've never overplayed WvW at any point. I started it when the game was young and played a few hours every week. More at times when the mood struck me. I gradually lost interest until I just didn't play it at all anymore for a while. Most updates, particularly the introduction of elite specs, made the mode worse for me. It never gets better, just more annoying. I remember when the meta was all about huge flashing orange circles. I couldn't bother to even log on back then.

 

2) The most active guild I've ever been a part of had 3 active players, me included, all RL friends.. I'm not a social gamer, and never will be. When I get behind the PC it's to get away from social things. I have my offline life to be social and I don't need a second life online.

 

3) I just don't like WvW anymore. I give active play a shot once every few months, but it's just not worth it. Poor rewards for doing something that doesn't come close to the things I enjoy doing in the game. Not happening. Nothing I can do will change my feelings on that, something will have to change with the game. If they somehow change the rewards to be more appealing to me, I'll start actively playing again, with the same enthousiasm as harvesting my home instance, and I'll be done when I hit my goals. As long as semi-AFKing is the best use of my time to get the rewards I want, that's what I'll do. Again, something more meaningful than just the rewards has to change for me to enjoy WvW again.

Fair enough.

 

9 minutes ago, Manasa Devi.7958 said:

That phrase "What you put in is what you get out" doesn't apply here. I put next to nothing in, and I get out of it more than I would have any right to in a well-designed game.

 

The irony here: you don't even realize this is not about reward gain in form of items or loot. The way you describe it is: you are getting nothing out of this except wasting time of your life for some measly reward of pixels. That's what I mean with "put in". You put in near nothing, and that is just what you are getting out.

[Manasa Devi.7958]

 

5 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

The irony here: you don't even realize this is not about reward gain in form of items or loot. The way you describe it is: you are getting nothing out of this except wasting time of your life for some measly reward of pixels. That's what I mean with "put in". You put in near nothing, and that is just what you are getting out.

Are you sure you're in the right thread? This one is about rewards, so that's what I'll talk about. If the topic is of no interest to you, why are you here?

 

I happily put in next to nothing, which is all I want to give to a game mode that's been stale at best and annoying at worst for me for 5+ years now. I get out of it all that I want and more than I should if the game was sensible with its reward system. I have stated my position and feelings and attitude to the game multiple times now, and if you'd have made some effort to undestand, you'd realize I don't feel I'm wasting any time at all. I'm only in WvW when I'm at my PC for other reasons anyway. If I was "grinding" to optimize my ticket gains, that would be wasting time, though I probably would get to diamond every week. I'd have been done collecting tickets maybe a year ago. As it stands, I'll continue to put in nothing and get everything I want at a pace that doesn't tax me in the slightest.

 

I might put something more into it one day if the best possible result I could get back from it would be anything worthwhile at all, be it reward or enjoyment. As it stands, the best I can hope for is no enjoyment and no reward. So, I opt to put nothing into it and still get the only thing worthwhile to me at this point. I'm happy that the game allows for this .I'm not sure why this bothers you enough to keep finding arguments to convince me I'm doing something wrong.

 

 

[Cyninja.2954]

12 minutes ago, Manasa Devi.7958 said:

 

Are you sure you're in the right thread? This one is about rewards, so that's what I'll talk about. If the topic is of no interest to you, why are you here?

Yes I am. I am concerned about the game mode, not just the rewards. I am establishing that changes made to appease players who ONLY focus on the reward might be damaging to the game mode.

 

In that regard, are you sure you are in the correct thread?

 

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I happily put in next to nothing, which is all I want to give to a game mode that's been stale at best and annoying at worst for me for 5+ years now. I get out of it all that I want and more than I should if the game was sensible with its reward system. I have stated my position and feelings and attitude to the game multiple times now, and if you'd have made some effort to undestand, you'd realize I don't feel I'm wasting any time at all. I'm only in WvW when I'm at my PC for other reasons anyway. If I was "grinding" to optimize my ticket gains, that would be wasting time, though I probably would get to diamond every week. I'd have been done collecting tickets maybe a year ago. As it stands, I'll continue to put in nothing and get everything I want at a pace that doesn't tax me in the slightest.

 

I might put something more into it one day if the best possible result I could get back from it would be anything worthwhile at all, be it reward or enjoyment. As it stands, the best I can hope for is no enjoyment and no reward. So, I opt to put nothing into it and still get the only thing worthwhile to me at this point. I'm happy that the game allows for this .I'm not sure why this bothers you enough to keep finding arguments to convince me I'm doing something wrong.

 

 

 

So in short: this game mode is not any longer for you. So again: why should your opinion carry weight over that of players who do enjoy the mode?

 

The way I see it: You have distanced yourself so far that the healthiest thing would be to quit. You decide not to because your desire for the "rewards" outperforms your unhappiness with the game mode. I merely am expressing concerns that balancing anything for this game mode around this kind of player or approach could be very damaging.

 

EDIT:

and to get back to my original point which you addressed: a lot of players with high ranks are not in your situation. Most will actually quit, especially the ones slightly beyond you because they would already have the tickets needed (as you are constantly claiming that you are gone at that point yourself).

 

You are a niche within a niche, a player who sticks around to get his "goal" done but actually does not enjoy the game mode any more. Most will have quit far before, if they do not value the reward enough to "suffer" through this content, or quit after having gained the reward needed.

 

As such you are the least representative of high rank (if we want to call rank 2k high) players active in the game mode. Which is what my original claim was.

Edited June 4, 2021 by Cyninja.2954