Give Rev more ways to manage conditions

[Thornwolf.9721]

12 minutes ago, lodjur.1284 said:

Bunch of sPvP changes and extremely minor nerf to UA

You mean the patch that very much buffed Condi Rev?

 

 

But ye changes that explicitly only nerfed condi herald and not Core/Herald is what I asked for, since you said that Condi Herald has suffered so much

No I didn't say condi did, my entire point was that power herald has suffered and it pushed people to embrace condi-herald. Once they ruined its flow most power heralds left; The notable ones dropped it in favor of other classes or quit. Condi only recently was whacked with a nerf bat; After two or so years of dominance. 

but these recent changes/nerfs to condi herald were extreme, it didn't need to be done like this. It could of retained is condition resistance/bounce back playstyle and merely been toned down to give it a niche. Infact leaving condition herald in its position while toning down its damage perhaps to make it take longer to kill people but last longer in sustained fights with condition damage users would of been healthy. Because Power builds in most cases would cause a condition herald to explode, if you really wanted to make them even more vulnerable to power builds as well you could've struck at rune of tormenting. which doesn't seem like a lot but it is a huge point of sustain from them and they synergized way to well with it. 

Rework that and you basically strike all of the typical condition revenants and even condition builds in other classes, granted it would make the rune drop out of favor likely depending on what they'd of done. But still; You could in theory have done that and left the build alone outside of minor damage tweaks. They could still exist in that form albeit less kittenous; Changing the entire point of mallyx who was your condition counter. (He was designed back in his launch to basically redirect and be immune to conditions, this was his entire scheme and what they wanted him to be when they initially designed him. So now he needs a rework and a new theme/niche, so if they truly want that gone it can be gone.)

Honestly mallyx was the only part of rev with definitive direction, every other part of the class was basically "Eh, it can do this kind of." I think shiro USED to have a direction but now its kind of up in the air as to what they intend for the legend and traitline, I honestly think they just don't want it being as prominent as it used to be. They are afraid of what might happen if power herald returned to former glory, which was when it was at its peak fun levels. Now its more of a meme.

Edited June 10, 2021 by Thornwolf.9721

[lodjur.1284]

33 minutes ago, Thornwolf.9721 said:

No I didn't say condi did, my entire point was that power herald has suffered and it pushed people to embrace condi-herald. Once they ruined its flow most power heralds left; The notable ones dropped it in favor of other classes or quit. Condi only recently was whacked with a nerf bat; After two or so years of dominance. 

So you agree Condi Herald and Power Herald have nothing in common

33 minutes ago, Thornwolf.9721 said:

but these recent changes/nerfs to condi herald were extreme, it didn't need to be done like this. It could of retained is condition resistance/bounce back playstyle and merely been toned down to give it a niche. Infact leaving condition herald in its position while toning down its damage perhaps to make it take longer to kill people but last longer in sustained fights with condition damage users would of been healthy. Because Power builds in most cases would cause a condition herald to explode, if you really wanted to make them even more vulnerable to power builds as well you could've struck at rune of tormenting. which doesn't seem like a lot but it is a huge point of sustain from them and they synergized way to well with it. 

Okay here we go

 

What exactly changed for condi herald, why did it affect condi herald more than core/ren and why was that bad?

33 minutes ago, Thornwolf.9721 said:

Rework that and you basically strike all of the typical condition revenants and even condition builds in other classes, granted it would make the rune drop out of favor likely depending on what they'd of done. But still; You could in theory have done that and left the build alone outside of minor damage tweaks. They could still exist in that form albeit less kittenous; Changing the entire point of mallyx who was your condition counter. (He was designed back in his launch to basically redirect and be immune to conditions, this was his entire scheme and what they wanted him to be when they initially designed him. So now he needs a rework and a new theme/niche, so if they truly want that gone it can be gone.)

 

DIrections change.

33 minutes ago, Thornwolf.9721 said:

Honestly mallyx was the only part of rev with definitive direction, every other part of the class was basically "Eh, it can do this kind of." I think shiro USED to have a direction but now its kind of up in the air as to what they intend for the legend and traitline, I honestly think they just don't want it being as prominent as it used to be. They are afraid of what might happen if power herald returned to former glory, which was when it was at its peak fun levels. Now its more of a meme.

Shiro still has the same direction

 

I mean power herald was beyond broken, I mean calling that peak fun is kinda telling.

 

Anyway "What exactly changed for condi herald, why did it affect condi herald more than core/ren and why was that bad?" Answer me this.

[Thornwolf.9721]

6 hours ago, lodjur.1284 said:

So you agree Condi Herald and Power Herald have nothing in common

Okay here we go

 

What exactly changed for condi herald, why did it affect condi herald more than core/ren and why was that bad?

DIrections change.

Shiro still has the same direction

 

I mean power herald was beyond broken, I mean calling that peak fun is kinda telling.

 

Anyway "What exactly changed for condi herald, why did it affect condi herald more than core/ren and why was that bad?" Answer me this.

Last post because litterally nothing I say will make you not kittening defend this dumb design. Power herald was not broken lol, maybe to people who didn't know what warrior or thief was sure. It could be super good and had engaging gameplay; Something many other classes lack in feel and now its slow and boring and outplayed by pretty much any high mobility power build.

The changes made hit condi-herald harder because it leaned more on resistance than renegade or core; Needed it more for the condi-herald to work. It doesn't and power doesn't really either not alone anyhow, as a solo roamer it doesn't matter clearly roamers aren't wanted on this class and Im done trying to defend it. (Outside of the over-tuned baby renegade, which honestly makes me sick.)

Im glad its fun for you, the point is the class I enjoyed no longer exists. It can be "telling" but you like a no skill build on a no skill spec so isn't that "Telling" ? Renegade is one of the easiest things to play, super easy with low risk, high reward just like guardians in general. Good. Glad. Neat. Yes Im salty. 

Don't worry either I won't be responding, after this mainly because I personally was dumb enough to come check the forums Ironically. Best luck out there and happy hunting, may the spirits watch over you

Edited June 11, 2021 by Thornwolf.9721

[Klaxon.1480]

So basically I know nothing about this game, but I just wanna throw this in here for a different perspective from someone on the outside looking in... 

This game looks like a hot fkn mess. All these class changes, forcing playstyles to change COMPLETELY for seemingly no reason at all. Weapons and builds that should do certain things, like Mirage with axes... Which seems like a teleporting assassin from first glance to me, who knows little about the game... Doesn't even do good damage. It's literally not even supposed to use axes to do power or physical damage, or whatever... 

So when you people talk about changes and completely change the playstyle of a class that was supposed to do a certain thing from it's release... It kinda makes the game unplayable to new players who only barely know one class and how to play it, and makes considering getting into the game an even more unappetizing option.

So when someone says "well... Just play the game the way the developers want it to be played"... No. How about, get the developers to make a class, balance it, release it, and leave it and balance new classes to match or counter it as you move forward rather than dicking around and stirring up the pot until classes are literally so confusing and unappetizing that your game just can't get new players anymore and keep them.

[lodjur.1284]

4 hours ago, Thornwolf.9721 said:

Last post because litterally nothing I say will make you not kittening defend this dumb design. Power herald was not broken lol, maybe to people who didn't know what warrior or thief was sure. It could be super good and had engaging gameplay; Something many other classes lack in feel and now its slow and boring and outplayed by pretty much any high mobility power build.

Ye I mean naturally they'd swap to a slow and tanky condi spec instead of another burst, squishy, evade based, high mobility power spec, makes perfect sense. 

 

I beat the nerfs to condi weaver made more people play support tempest and the

Quote

The changes made hit condi-herald harder because it leaned more on resistance than renegade or core; Needed it more for the condi-herald to work. It doesn't and power doesn't really either not alone anyhow, as a solo roamer it doesn't matter clearly roamers aren't wanted on this class and Im done trying to defend it. (Outside of the over-tuned baby renegade, which honestly makes me sick.)

 

It leaned more on resistance because it got overall better defenses?

 

Or did it lean more on because it got more clears?

 

or maybe because it got more ways of evading condis in the first place?

Do tell

 

Also Renegade is a pretty mediocre duelist post-patch, not useless but Def not the strongest duelist by any means. 

Quote

Im glad its fun for you, the point is the class I enjoyed no longer exists. It can be "telling" but you like a no skill build on a no skill spec so isn't that "Telling" ? Renegade is one of the easiest things to play, super easy with low risk, high reward just like guardians in general. Good. Glad. Neat. Yes Im salty. 

Haha

 

Ye go show us 1 condi renegade pushing good damage in a group, I'll wait. 

 

Especially one playing "low-risk"

Quote

Don't worry either I won't be responding, after this mainly because I personally was dumb enough to come check the forums Ironically. Best luck out there and happy hunting, may the spirits watch over you

Hahaha, Ye I mean nothing like not being able to drop your opponent below 70% in a 1v1 while talking about how skillful roaming and dueling is then throwing a fit

Edited June 11, 2021 by lodjur.1284

[lodjur.1284]

4 hours ago, Klaxon.1480 said:

So basically I know nothing about this game, but I just wanna throw this in here for a different perspective from someone on the outside looking in... 

"I know nothing about the topic but lemme bring my opinion anyway, because all perspectives are important. Even if mine comes with no knowledge, no experience and brings nothing new. "

 

Thanks, so useful

Quote

This game looks like a hot fkn mess. All these class changes, forcing playstyles to change COMPLETELY for seemingly no reason at all. Weapons and builds that should do certain things, like Mirage with axes... Which seems like a teleporting assassin from first glance to me, who knows little about the game... Doesn't even do good damage. It's literally not even supposed to use axes to do power or physical damage, or whatever... 

Once again, no point even explaining the state of Mirage axe because you don't have the perquisites knowledge

Quote

So when you people talk about changes and completely change the playstyle of a class that was supposed to do a certain thing from it's release... It kinda makes the game unplayable to new players who only barely know one class and how to play it, and makes considering getting into the game an even more unappetizing option.

Developers made a mistake, they corrected said mistake. 

 

The mistake was carrying players, players are upset.

 

The "playstyle" was essentially being invulnerable. 

Quote

So when someone says "well... Just play the game the way the developers want it to be played"... No. How about, get the developers to make a class, balance it, release it, and leave it and balance new classes to match or counter it as you move forward rather than dicking around and stirring up the pot until classes are literally so confusing and unappetizing that your game just can't get new players anymore and keep them.

So don't play it I guess?

 

Also that's actually what they did. 

 

Also why even comment on the forum of a game you haven't played???

Edited June 11, 2021 by lodjur.1284

[Scoobaniec.9561]

I cant believe there are some people saying rev has good condi clear bc of a sigil lmao. My guard used to fart out condi clear and i wasnt even building for it not to mention perma 33% reduction these days. How does rev even compare? Just go 1v1 a scourge and tell me how it went on your amazing condi cleaning machine rev, by the time you even get to swap legend second time youll be already in downed state

[Arheundel.6451]

On 6/8/2021 at 2:30 AM, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Dude, Rev has very limited build diversity.  This isn't some rocket science that only you have figured out.  It's completely obvious what you take or don't take for condition management.  I'm not going to go create several links on Build Editor and link them here since we all know exactly what I would be linking.

Let's analyze the false claim though, the claim that Rev has good cleanse:

You've stated it yourself in your above the post, summarized here:
6 clears for condi ren on 10s CD (Legend Swap) + 5/30
4 clears for Power rev on 10s CD + staff

except that ignores that:
3 of those clears are linked to Sigil of Cleansing, which every class has access to and can run double of so that they ALSO get 3 clears every 10s.  So as soon as you realize that the argument becomes:

3 clears for condi ren on 10s CD + 5/30
1 clear for Power rev on 10s CD + staff

Let's look at other classes:

1) Healing skills: Every class except mesmer has access to a core healing skill that also cleanses conditions in some way.  Mesmer's Chronomancer has access to one through Well of Eternity.  Jalis's "5/30" is not unique here in the least, especially since its counterpart, Warrior's "mending," does 5/15 (or 10/30, adjusted).  Other notable examples include Necromancer's "Consume Conditions which eats every single condi on you, so X/30.  Also, Soulbeast's "Bear Stance" can be traited to remove a whopping 12/25.  These are just the healing skills, we haven't gotten to anything else yet. 

2) Utility Skills: Every class EXCEPT Revenant, given the correct trait/rune/build choices, can slot 3 utilities that cleanse conditions.  Even with access to 6 utilities, Revenant can only slot 2!  And one of those two is "Ventari" which is awful and the other is Shiro's Riposting Shadows, which doesn't remove damaging conditions.  Again, Every other class can slot 3 utilities at least that can remove conditions, ESPECIALLY damaging ones

3) Elite Skills:  Elite skills that can cleanse condis inherently are somewhat rare.  Revenant, Ranger, Thief, Guardian, Mesmer, and Necromancer all have access to or can build to allow at least 1 of their Elite Skills to cleanse condis.  However, Revenant's elite that can cleanse condis is "Energy Expulsion" on Ventari, which....is not great.  Most of the other Elite Skills that can cleanse/or be traited/runed to cleanse are...far better than Ventari...

^The point of this is that EVERY class besides Rev can take 4 (or 5 in some cases) extra skills that can cleanse if they want.  This doesn't even include the additonal

4) Traits:  Every class, including Rev, has at least 2 Core Traits that can cleanse condis.  Most have 3 or more.  Many of these traits are as effective or better than Cleansing Channel and Permeating Pestillence.  Let's take a look at some of the good ones:

Guardian:  Smiter's Boon cures 2/20 and is a must for many builds.  DH can even remove a condition every time it blocks with Hunter's Fortification.  No ICD.  Skies the limit with that one. 

Ranger: Ranger has several traits that can remove or mitigate conditions, but the best one is very clearly Druidic Clarity which can be as strong as 13/11 or as spread out as 13/25.  That is insanely more powerful than anything Rev has, and that doesn't even include their utility or other traits. 

Necromancer: Necromancer has insane condition removal/transfer that far outpaces anything Rev can put out.  Necro can remove 1 every 3s (1/3) while in shroud, pass off conditions to minions 1/10 per minion, and even lose 3 when leaving shroud.  Scourge can remove 1 per Barrier application as well. 

I could keep going with this since there's even more for other classes as well.  This list also doesn't include weapon or profession skills that remove conditions as well, which there are many of.

The point is, Every class BESIDES Rev CAN slot and build for FAR MORE than 6 every 10s (or Power Rev's measly 4/10).  While Rev CAN slot for some extra cleanse besides its traits, it's actively punished for doing so since Ventari is absolute trash outside of PvE (and even there it's not great).  EVERY other class can slot and build around conditions even further if they want without being directly punished for it. 
 

the condi clear of other professions is mostly focused in healing/defensive traitlines, other professions do sacrifice damage for sustain and adding condi clear to invocation and/or corruption is anything but asking for condi removal, salvation and retribution are the defensive traitlines and that's where condi clear if really necessary should be added END 

 

Every profession sacrifice dmg for sustain, some more than others but they all do....nobody would agree with people asking for condi removal added to corruption, or invocation or devastation like....having the cake and eat it too..with cherry on top.

 

People have been waiting for months/years for the resistance nerfs, you had your fun playing traiblazer/torment runes tanks in wvw...but the build was broken AF and everybody in wvw is happy that is gone, everybody except those who abused the build for years ofc

 

P.S before anybody tries to belittle me...I am not against condi removal, sustain whatever added to rev. I am against the idea of adding this condi removal/sustain to offensive traitlines forsaking the very idea of game balance when everybody else must make sacrifices in their builds to have condi clear

 

It's ok to ask to rework a skill or two to clear some condis on a 20-30s CD like other classes but anything else trait related belongs to  Salvation and Retribution , what rev has currently in other traitlines is completely in line with what other profession have as far as their offensive traitlines go ( actually corruption offers already a good deal of sustain as it is more than what other professions can say )

Edited June 11, 2021 by Arheundel.6451

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

5 hours ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

the condi clear of other professions is mostly focused in healing/defensive traitlines, other professions do sacrifice damage for sustain and adding condi clear to invocation and/or corruption is anything but asking for condi removal, salvation and retribution are the defensive traitlines and that's where condi clear if really necessary should be added END 

 

Every profession sacrifice dmg for sustain, some more than others but they all do....nobody would agree with people asking for condi removal added to corruption, or invocation or devastation like....having the cake and eat it too..with cherry on top.

 

People have been waiting for months/years for the resistance nerfs, you had your fun playing traiblazer/torment runes tanks in wvw...but the build was broken AF and everybody in wvw is happy that is gone, everybody except those who abused the build for years ofc

 

P.S before anybody tries to belittle me...I am not against condi removal, sustain whatever added to rev. I am against the idea of adding this condi removal/sustain to offensive traitlines forsaking the very idea of game balance when everybody else must make sacrifices in their builds to have condi clear

 

It's ok to ask to rework a skill or two to clear some condis on a 20-30s CD like other classes but anything else trait related belongs to  Salvation and Retribution , what rev has currently in other traitlines is completely in line with what other profession have as far as their offensive traitlines go ( actually corruption offers already a good deal of sustain as it is more than what other professions can say )

I never said more condi removal belongs in Invocation or Corruption.  If you're arguing against that in general, that's fine, but if you're specifically arguing against me stating that (since you quoted me) you will not find any posts of me having given a suggestion to buff Invo or Corruption with more cleanse.  

My personal opinion which I haven't given previously is like that of MithranArkanere's above.  Rev should have been designed with a 4th utility per legend from the get go, which could provide a place to provide more condi cleanse at the expense of something else.  My main argument is entirely that everyone besides Rev is able to slot a massive amount of condi removal if they want to (which is different from it being a "good build").  Rev doesn't have that luxury in comparison to other classes.  Also most high tier meta builds for roaming bring more cleanse than Rev and are still fine on offensive capabilities.  Most can still slot an extra cleanse or two without gimping their damage as well. 

Edited June 11, 2021 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[Arheundel.6451]

15 minutes ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

I never said more condi removal belongs in Invocation or Corruption.  If you're arguing against that in general, that's fine, but if you're specifically arguing against me stating that (since you quoted me) you will not find any posts of me having given a suggestion to buff Invo or Corruption with more cleanse.  

My personal opinion which I haven't given previously is like that of MithranArkanere's above.  Rev should have been designed with a 4th utility per legend from the get go, which could provide a place to provide more condi cleanse at the expense of something else.  My main argument is entirely that everyone besides Rev is able to slot a massive amount of condi removal if they want to (which is different from it being a "good build").  Rev doesn't have that luxury in comparison to other classes.  Also most high tier meta builds for roaming bring more cleanse than Rev and are still fine on offensive capabilities.  Most can still slot an extra cleanse or two without gimping their damage as well. 

You've specifically mentioned a trait from Corruption and another from Invocation, I see no buffing request for salvation and retribution. The reason why I did quote you is because you've used traits from other professions...traits that exist within a defensive traitline on those classes:

 

Ranger condi removal is wilderness survival; Guardian has Valor and Necromancer has blood line, all three are defensive traitlines that's why I've quoted you.

 

If you want better cleansing utilities and main heal on rev..by all means, if revs instead suggest to add condi removal to traitlines designed for burst damage...then we have a problem.

 

All the high tier meta builds for roaming make use of at least one defensive traitline, no other way around it : Holosmith use Alchemy, Ranger again uses WS, Thief will be SA, Necros either death or blood...only rev make uses mostly of an offensive traitline and enhancing traitline with condi herald, similar to LR weaver which again is not as tanky as a water ele for example

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

2 hours ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

You've specifically mentioned a trait from Corruption and another from Invocation, I see no buffing request for salvation and retribution. The reason why I did quote you is because you've used traits from other professions...traits that exist within a defensive traitline on those classes:

 

Ranger condi removal is wilderness survival; Guardian has Valor and Necromancer has blood line, all three are defensive traitlines that's why I've quoted you.

 

Wilderness Survival is Defense AND condi damage.  Corruption in Rev is Condi AND Defense.  These lines are very comparable to one another, the only major difference is in the focus of their minors.  Guardian's Valor is defensive, yes, but Dragonhunter (a generally offensive line) has one of the best cleanse traits for Guard as an option as I mentioned.  Guard also has huge access to Resolution now in addition to its possible massive amount of cleanse.  In my original post I also ignored the fact that Necromancer has access to cleanses and transfers in BOTH Spite and Curses (damage lines) in addition to Blood Magic and Death Magic because I thought it was overkill to mention all of them.  I did mention the access to cleanse in Scourge as well.  If you read closely I also mention that these are just some of the best examples of traits from classes, not a comprehensive list and that there are tons of other traits as well across all classes.  

Talking just about traits also, more importantly, is a bit of a nitpick which misses my main point, which is that EVERY class besides Rev can take Traits PLUS Utilities PLUS Weapon Skills PLUS (in some cases) Profession Skills that cleanse condis.  Looking at the traits in my previous post is meant to be looked at as part of a larger context (traits + utils, etc.) instead of just individually.  Rev can't slot any utilities that cleanse damaging condis, (unless they take Ventari which is atrocious generally) while EVERY other class can slot 4 (or 5 in some cases) cleanse utils in addition to potentially taking traits as well (of course slotting 4-5 doesn't always mean the build is good, but the option is there, which Rev doesn't even have).   

Edited June 11, 2021 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[Za Shaloc.3908]

Some thoughts on changes that could be made. Most of these are my own reused ideas from the past. Maybe I just really like my own ideas and want to push them some more.

 

CORRUPTION

 

Demonic Defiance: Additionally, Frigid Blitz now transfers conditions (1-2) to affected foes.

(This would be an attempt to diversify access to transfers to help with the Resistance situation. Additionally, it would give back axe its role as the true condition offhand weapon in competitive modes. Transfers like this are much healthier for the game than True Nature - Demon as there is a significantly larger amount of counterplay and smaller potential for impact. This would give Rev access to quite a bit of transfers, but as Resistance is no longer a way of bypassing condition damage, I think it is warranted and help with Mallyx's currently awkward identity.)

 

SALVATION

 

Vital Blessing: Reworked. Searing Fissure now is a water field that heals and grants regeneration to allies. Renewing Wave gains 2 charges.

(A safe choice for any Rev build using staff and would really increase the appeal of taking Salvation for any build, as currently IMO Ret really outshines it for most builds. Condi Revs would stay away from it but Mace/Shield heal Heralds would rejoice.)

 

Words of Censure: Reworked. Executing a blast finisher removes 1 condition from nearby allies. Blast finishers gain increased radius (50%). Not sure what the ICD would be.

(Would not synergize with Shiro/Glint builds but provides a lot of opportunity for all other legends, as well as mace/staff/hammer.. Revenant can build for a *TON* of blast finishers so I think this aspect of the class should really be highlighted.)

 

INVOCATION

 

Song of the Mists - Call of the Dragon: No longer chills. Instead, now converts 1 condition to a boon for nearby allies (300-360r).

 (Glint is all about boon support and this should be carried through on a thematic trait that is very much about capturing the legend's essence. It would also give power Herald builds more access to condi management, which is currently the build that suffers the greatest weakness against conditions.)

 

HERALD

 

Elevated Compassion: Additionally, Elemental Blast is now converted to Purifying Breath.

Purifying Breath: Consume Facet of Elements to cover the target area in magical dragon breath.

Pulse 1: Heals for X

Pulse 2: Heals for X and cleanses 1 condition

Pulse 3: Heals for X and converts 1 condition to a boon.

Interval: 1s

Radius: 240
Range: 600

 

(I don't think any power or condi Revenant would want to take this because Elemental Blast is a very strong skill for both builds. This is directly targeted at buffing support Heralds.)

Edited June 12, 2021 by Za Shaloc.3908
How do I remove indentation? ;-;

[vilesoldier.9826]

13 hours ago, Za Shaloc.3908 said:

Some thoughts on changes that could be made. Most of these are my own reused ideas from the past. Maybe I just really like my own ideas and want to push them some more.

you can make all the reasonable and interesting suggestions you want to make support rev a not a meme....

 

but what about healing orbs??? you're telling me people want to actively play their build rather than npc-like passive mechanics???

🤔🤔🤔