Eddie.8657 Posted July 8, 2021 Share Posted July 8, 2021 (edited) Hey all. I have been looking at some Youtubers lately and noticed they're promoting their Patreon. With giveaways ofcourse. Obviously Patreon requires you to ''donate'' money to them in exchange for Precursors/Legendaries or Infusions etc. Isn't this just RMT on another scale?? I understand Streams that do giveaways they just get donations but they give stuff away to random players on their stream. However with Patreon its different as u have different ''Tiers'' which offer better rewards ? and you're in a pool with a high chance of winning. Some of their highest Patreon tiers have a 100% chance of winning a Legendary? I mean that has to be some sort of RMT if u think about it. Arena Net is losing money because of this aswell. Because the players are now sending their real life money to a Patreon (item seller is how i see it) and getting in-game items that can be sold for gold and converted to gems. Thus Anet loses money. They clearly offer Items in the form of Subscriptions. And that has to be RMT right? I only just found out about this and it already left me wondering why/if this hasn't been discussed before. Edited July 12, 2021 by LunaDeviner.6514 6 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted July 8, 2021 Share Posted July 8, 2021 (edited) Well... yes, it is. Except people aren't "buying directly", but instead enter the raffle, so I guess it's somehow different, because it involves gambling or something 🙃 Edited July 8, 2021 by Sobx.1758 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raknar.4735 Posted July 8, 2021 Share Posted July 8, 2021 Could be seen as going against point 9 in the Rules of Conduct (https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2-rules-of-conduct/). It's an offer to transfer game content (item), (most likely) without Arenanet or NCsofts express written permission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mik.3401 Posted July 8, 2021 Share Posted July 8, 2021 I always felt unsure about this one as well. It is because these you tubers essentially earn money for in-game items they give away. So in practice it is not too far apart from gold black market. The transaction is not made ‘directly for goods though - just the membership so that protects them I guess. All they do is buy a bunch of GW2 accounts and then buy insane amounts of legendaries for the daily login rewards they got and they give away to paid subscribers. Probably with time they get some nice benefit. I’m not sure it is moral given they abuse the system and make people pay them for it but oh well i suppose Anet may not ha e taken action yet because they want the content creators to thrive to bring them promo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrilana.1396 Posted July 8, 2021 Share Posted July 8, 2021 I consider it RMT because even if obtaining the reward relies on RNG, you still needed to pay real world money for it. 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flapjackson.1596 Posted July 8, 2021 Share Posted July 8, 2021 It is crossing an ethical boundary. It should be treated like Twitch giveaways where a Patreon subscriber should have an increased chance of winning. Making it the requirement to participate is definitely offering rewards for payment. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raknar.4735 Posted July 8, 2021 Share Posted July 8, 2021 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Flapjackson.1596 said: It is crossing an ethical boundary. It should be treated like Twitch giveaways where a Patreon subscriber should have an increased chance of winning. Making it the requirement to participate is definitely offering rewards for payment. Depending on where you're from the offer to buy into a giveaway or offering increased odds of winning through payment is actually illegal (e.g. in the US you can file a FTC report https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/fake-prize-sweepstakes-and-lottery-scams). Edited July 8, 2021 by Raknar.4735 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inculpatus cedo.9234 Posted July 8, 2021 Share Posted July 8, 2021 2 hours ago, Raknar.4735 said: Could be seen as going against point 9 in the Rules of Conduct (https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2-rules-of-conduct/). It's an offer to transfer game content (item), (most likely) without Arenanet or NCsofts express written permission. Just an FYI: That document is out-of-date (not that the rule may be out-of-date). ArenaNet (or NCSoft) really should put a redirect on that page. https://us.ncsoft.com/en-us/legal https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/legal-documentation-updates-effective-may-5-2021/ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie.8657 Posted July 12, 2021 Author Share Posted July 12, 2021 On 7/8/2021 at 11:45 PM, Ayrilana.1396 said: I consider it RMT because even if obtaining the reward relies on RNG, you still needed to pay real world money for it. Exactly this. It's just odd that this is still allowed. If i were to pay them for a chance of an item. It's pretty much like going to a casino and gambling except most of the times its a 50-75% chance to win on these Patreon pages. I think it's actually RMT. And they should do something about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie.8657 Posted July 12, 2021 Author Share Posted July 12, 2021 (edited) They just blatantly promote the ITEMS given in these Patreon tiers. And you have to buy higher/more expensive tiers to unlock better items. I mean c'mon THIS IS RMT How this isn't on Anet's radar is beyond me. Here is how i currently see what's happening and how anyone can do this ''Technically you could just buy a ton of accounts let's say 50. (yes it's alot of money 750 if the games on sale) Log in Daily for alot of Gold, Laurels, Mystic Coins and what not. After a month or so you'd be stacked. And then u can open up your very own Patreon and Youtube accounts. Patreon means Monthly income from other players ''supporting'' (really buying in-game goods) from you. Promote ur items to be won with Patreon Tiers. Higher tiers get better items/chances too. So your initial investment is 750 Euro for example. You spend a bit of time logging in each day. However you have let's say 20-70 patreons subbed to ''support'' each month ! Depending on how you price your tiers and what goods are in the tiers. You can pretty much get ur money back within just a few months. and from there you make so much profit it's unreal'' It's not like they're doing FREE giveaways and helping the regular player. NO they charge them under the false pretence of they need ''support'' and for that support i'll give an item back ! Sorry but in my opinion it's quite sad that this is allowed and not even seen as RMT. Edited July 12, 2021 by LunaDeviner.6514 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phokus.8934 Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 There’s a reason why giveaways require “no purchase necessary.” 1 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie.8657 Posted July 12, 2021 Author Share Posted July 12, 2021 (edited) 41 minutes ago, phokus.8934 said: There’s a reason why giveaways require “no purchase necessary.” Well yes.. it's in the name give away. Typically it allowes a user to Enter a raffle for free to participate. That's my point. Why don't the youtubers just do Giveaways instead of locking these items behind paywalls in the form of Patreon. And why is it not seen as RMT? I get it the Youtubers deserve support from their community through donations. But having items in these Tiers. makes it so they're being paid for goods or a chance at goods in-game. Thus making it pretty much RMT. It also gets people to Subscribe to their Patreon just for the chance of these Items. When the buyer doesn't really want to support the Channel they just want the in-game goods. Even if it may be a gamble. Edited July 12, 2021 by LunaDeviner.6514 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie.8657 Posted July 12, 2021 Author Share Posted July 12, 2021 (edited) Theres one person on Youtube i won't say their name but it may be obvious to some. Which has 700 patrons ! Having 700 patrons at the lowest tier makes it so this person makes 3,000$ each month. (It will be more cause i only calculated the lowest tier possible) His patreon prices are Tier 1 = 4,50$ Tier 2 = 13$ , Tier 3 = 26$ and a whopping 129$ a month for Tier 4. YES a few people may want to genuinely just support the guy. And not care about the items. But theres also a ton of people only subscribing for the items because its a safe way to RMT ! Edited July 12, 2021 by LunaDeviner.6514 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phokus.8934 Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 27 minutes ago, LunaDeviner.6514 said: Well yes.. it's in the name give away. That's my point. Why don't the youtubers just do Giveaways instead of locking these items behind paywalls in the form of Patreon. And why is it not seen as RMT? I get it the Youtubers deserve support from their community through donations. But having items in these Tiers. makes it so they're being paid for goods or a chance at goods in-game. Thus making it pretty much RMT. It also gets people to Subscribe to their Patreon just for the chance of these Items. When the buyer doesn't really want to support the Channel they just want the in-game goods. Even if it may be a gamble. In the US you have to have free entries for giveaways, at a minimum. If the person is in the UK then there is no “No Purchase Necessary” law as far as I know so they are within their right to do these raffles/giveaways. Personally I don’t consider this RMT. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie.8657 Posted July 12, 2021 Author Share Posted July 12, 2021 3 minutes ago, phokus.8934 said: In the US you have to have free entries for giveaways, at a minimum. If the person is in the UK then there is no “No Purchase Necessary” law as far as I know so they are within their right to do these raffles/giveaways. Personally I don’t consider this RMT. Well yes that's for giveaways though. My whole post is asking about RMT and Patreon though. Patreon is paid for. It's not free. Please read the full post before commenting further 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yggranya.5201 Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 I'm sure there's something in the ToS that allows anet to freely ignore or punish these people. Or anyone really. Nothing matters until it hits their bottom line though. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phokus.8934 Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 1 hour ago, LunaDeviner.6514 said: Well yes that's for giveaways though. My whole post is asking about RMT and Patreon though. Patreon is paid for. It's not free. Please read the full post before commenting further You're not understanding what RMT actually is then. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie.8657 Posted July 12, 2021 Author Share Posted July 12, 2021 (edited) Just now, phokus.8934 said: You're not understanding what RMT actually is then. RMT = Real Money Trading. When you're trading Real money for goods in-game Which is essentially happening here. As you're paying real money for a chance of in-game goods. Feel free to explain if you'd like but these half bothered comments aren't really helping this thread. So please read full post if you'd like to contribute your opinion. Otherwise please don't comment Edited July 12, 2021 by LunaDeviner.6514 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagger.1459 Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 (edited) On 7/8/2021 at 4:37 PM, LunaDeviner.6514 said: Hey all. I have been looking at some Youtubers lately and noticed they're promoting their Patreon. With giveaways ofcourse. Obviously Patreon requires you to ''donate'' money to them in exchange for Precursors/Legendaries or Infusions etc. Isn't this just RMT on another scale?? I understand Streams that do giveaways they just get donations but they give stuff away to random players on their stream. However with Patreon its different as u have different ''Tiers'' which offer better rewards ? and you're in a pool with a high chance of winning. Some of their highest Patreon tiers have a 100% chance of winning a Legendary? I mean that has to be some sort of RMT if u think about it. Arena Net is losing money because of this aswell. Because the players are now sending their real life money to a Patreon (item seller is how i see it) and getting in-game items that can be sold for gold and converted to gems. Thus Anet loses money. They clearly offer Items in the form of Subscriptions. And that has to be RMT right? I only just found out about this and it already left me wondering why/if this hasn't been discussed before. Well, that’s called a giveaway for subs. Better known as a raffle. Happens all the time on these social media platforms. You’re niggling over nothing. And the poster @phokus.8934is correct, you aren’t aware of what RMT is. Edited July 12, 2021 by Swagger.1459 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phokus.8934 Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 1 hour ago, LunaDeviner.6514 said: RMT = Real Money Trading. When you're trading Real money for goods in-game Which is essentially happening here. As you're paying real money for a chance of in-game goods. Feel free to explain if you'd like but these half bothered comments aren't really helping this thread. So please read full post if you'd like to contribute your opinion. Otherwise please don't comment Again you don't know what RMT actually is. Read Swagger's response. And when you post on an open forum, you don't get to choose who responds even if you don't like the responses because you're misunderstanding a concept. 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie.8657 Posted July 12, 2021 Author Share Posted July 12, 2021 (edited) 6 minutes ago, phokus.8934 said: Again you don't know what RMT actually is. Read Swagger's response. And when you post on an open forum, you don't get to choose who responds even if you don't like the responses because you're misunderstanding a concept. As i asked Phokus aswell. Please care to explain what it exactly means. In my understanding they're paying for a chance of an item (Gambling) If the person ''donating'' doesn't want to support the channel but mainly wants the item. by paying REAL money by the way. How is this not RMT? I get that if it was free then yes. I understand what you're saying You can enter a giveaway/raffle for free for a chance to win something.. But this isn't free and that's my whole point, so please guys explain. otherwise stay to topic and give your view of it, Do you think it is RMT or not? And if u think i don't understand RMT please explain it. I also understand i don't get to pick who gets to reply. But seeing ur comments aren't really on Topic. I was mostly asking if it is RMT or not and gave my view points to it. and asked What you guys think about it, But for some reason you gave half-bothered comments without any actual explanation. And that's why i asked. If you can't be bothered then don't reply at all 🙂 but okay it's fine. Still looking forward to what u guys think about it if you bothered to read my post at all. Edited July 12, 2021 by LunaDeviner.6514 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie.8657 Posted July 12, 2021 Author Share Posted July 12, 2021 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Swagger.1459 said: Well, that’s called a giveaway for subs. Better known as a raffle. Happens all the time on these social media platforms. You’re niggling over nothing. And the poster @phokus.8934is correct, you aren’t aware of what RMT is. Please Explain RMT then. Is this not a paid service? Is this not paid for a chance of an item? Giveaway for subs.. Right. So you're saying if i were to open a site. Where people can choose what items they want. but hey. The only way you get them is through paying me each month (subscribing). Then it would be Legal? Please explain it all to me so i can understand. Because saying i don't understand and not explaining is literally not helping. and that's why i asked Phokus to not comment if he didn't want to bother explaining Edited July 12, 2021 by LunaDeviner.6514 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrilana.1396 Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 24 minutes ago, Swagger.1459 said: Well, that’s called a giveaway for subs. Better known as a raffle. Happens all the time on these social media platforms. You’re niggling over nothing. And the poster @phokus.8934is correct, you aren’t aware of what RMT is. Raffles can or cannot be depending on how they’re implemented. The ones that I have seen on Twitch are open to all while subscribers get an extra chance/“ticket”. I’d consider these a grey area. RMT is the sale of in-game items for real world money. If you have a raffle or lottery where the only way to participate is to pay real world money, it’s RMT. In order to have acquired the prize, you had to have paid real world money. Adding an RNG layer on top of the exchange doesn’t change that. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inculpatus cedo.9234 Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 9 hours ago, LunaDeviner.6514 said: Theres one person on Youtube i won't say their name but it may be obvious to some. Which has 700 patrons ! Having 700 patrons at the lowest tier makes it so this person makes 3,000$ each month. (It will be more cause i only calculated the lowest tier possible) His patreon prices are Tier 1 = 4,50$ Tier 2 = 13$ , Tier 3 = 26$ and a whopping 129$ a month for Tier 4. YES a few people may want to genuinely just support the guy. And not care about the items. But theres also a ton of people only subscribing for the items because its a safe way to RMT ! Does this person give away 700 Legendary/Precursor/Infusion items a month? 500 items? 100 items? Even 10 items? At 10 items per month, you are saying these people have a 1 in 70 chance to participate in RMT? How are you determining that they only want to support the person for this 1 in X number of chances to participate in RMT? Must one patronize this person to have a chance to win, at all? Or does patronizing this person increase one's chance to win? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie.8657 Posted July 12, 2021 Author Share Posted July 12, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Inculpatus cedo.9234 said: Does this person give away 700 Legendary/Precursor/Infusion items a month? 500 items? 100 items? Even 10 items? At 10 items per month, you are saying these people have a 1 in 70 chance to participate in RMT? How are you determining that they only want to support the person for this 1 in X number of chances to participate in RMT? Must one patronize this person to have a chance to win, at all? Or does patronizing this person increase one's chance to win? So as far as he's claiming in his video theres roughly a 50% chance to win on the tier 1 to 3 patreon tiers. (precursor weapons) And the Legendary 129 dollar tier. has a higher chance last time i checked but that's because it has Legendary weapons in there. I can't determine they only want to support him for the items. However i overheard my guildmates say they only sub to his Patreon for the items. They had no clue other than that who the guy was. This is how i even found out about these Channels in the first place. And yeah sadly only Patreon Subscribers can enter to win these items (Precursors and Legendaries). I must say this particular youtuber also has Discord and Youtube Giveaways/Raffles where anyone can join in ! That's as much as i know so far. May i ask how you think about the subject? Do you believe it is RMT? Edited July 12, 2021 by LunaDeviner.6514 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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