twisted marionette is virtually unwinnable for a casual group

[Dante.1763]

24 minutes ago, PauloTex.9280 said:

No need for overstatements. Marionette was a complete faillure. Many others and I tried it 6 times in a row and it failled over stupid concept and design flaws.

Public or Private instances?

 

Ive done a minimum of 14 runs in Marionette public and ive only failed one of those due to a lack of players.

[Manasa Devi.7958]

I did 10 succesful runs and got all the new achievements (I already had the old ones). I had 3 failed runs. The succesful ones were all public, the failed ones were all private.

[Vayne.8563]

On 7/14/2021 at 8:17 AM, radda.8920 said:

 

so as I understand it even though 90% of the game content is reserved for the casu,  HM players might not have some targeted updates for them? that sounds a little selfish, doesn't it?

A good mmo is able to satisfy a multitude of player profiles even if there are fewer of them

 

that's how a game can get success and fame by attracting everyone....

but i guess it's so much better to spam 1 on two useless sponges in dragon storm, exciting content!!! 😐

It would be different if this was made for hard core players in the first place. It wasn't. It's probably the most beloved event in the history of the game. Giving it to casuals for a week and taking it away is a horrible decision. Give the hard core guys  something without taking something good away from the casuals is smart. This is just going to cause bad feelings.  A lot of them. It's not good for the game.

[Radina.6057]

16 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Giving it to casuals for a week and taking it away is a horrible decision. Give the hard core guys  something without taking something good away from the casuals is smart.

 

 

I wonder when people start seeing that the event "difficulty" is not the problem. 

 

 

There is no reason to get better at that event. The rewards are horrible. It doesnt matter if you are a hardcore casual, who cant dodge her heels even if his live was on the line, or a group content geek who watches netflix while dealing with the platforms. 15 min for 2g doesnt animate the first group to get better at it, nor the second group to come and help out.

 

People would get better at it, like they got better at Teq, or any HoT meta event, if there was something for their trouble.

 

[Vayne.8563]

1 hour ago, Radina.6057 said:

 

 

I wonder when people start seeing that the event "difficulty" is not the problem. 

 

 

There is no reason to get better at that event. The rewards are horrible. It doesnt matter if you are a hardcore casual, who cant dodge her heels even if his live was on the line, or a group content geek who watches netflix while dealing with the platforms. 15 min for 2g doesnt animate the first group to get better at it, nor the second group to come and help out.

 

People would get better at it, like they got better at Teq, or any HoT meta event, if there was something for their trouble.

 

There are people who play for achievements and not rewards.  And most casuals I know don't learn raiding or even t4 fractals even though they're very rewarding.

[Astralporing.1957]

6 hours ago, Radina.6057 said:

People would get better at it, like they got better at Teq, or any HoT meta event, if there was something for their trouble.

Both Teq and Gerent got nerfed hard. That is the reason why success rate and interest in it spiked. Although, of course, them being rewarding enough for time investment is also important, it was not what caused people to "get better" at those events. It's the lowered requirements that did that.

Edited July 20, 2021 by Astralporing.1957

[Crystal Paladin.3871]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Both Teq and Gerent got nerfed hard. 

Are they? I didn't know that. Both boss has some one shot mechanics... Stunbreaks can save you like 10% of times other times you just die

1. If you get knocked back into a teq finger poison aoe , u die in 1.5 secs or less.
2. If you get slapped by gerent into its blue expanding donut, u die
3. gerent often places a blue donut under it sneakily when the area covered by player skills flashing and light effects and fireworks all around, it kills most players
4. If debris fall on you when gerent does its rampage ground slamming, you die unless you use some toughness gear but using a toughness gear reduces damage output and others have to compensate for your reduced damage since the event gets scaled by your presence...
5. Gerent charge attack will take 50% of your hp
6. Teq often surrounds itself with poison aoe and some slow damaging aoe and sometimes suck you underground if not careful.
7. Both boss events have chance of failure if ppl didn't participate enough ... Enough mushrooms not stomped, 6 ppl handling turret doesn't use skill 2 off cooldown and was trolling

Edited July 20, 2021 by Crystal Paladin.3871

[Dante.1763]

2 minutes ago, Crystal Paladin.3871 said:

Are they? I didn't know that. Both boss has some one shot mechanics... Stunbreaks can save you like 10% of times other times you just die

1. If you get knocked back into a teq finger poison aoe , u die in 1.5 secs or less.
2. If you get slapped by gerent into its blue expanding donut, u die
3. gerent often places a blue donut under it sneakily when the area covered by player skills flashing and light effects and fireworks all around, it kills most players
4. If debris fall on you when gerent does its rampage ground slamming, you die unless you use some toughness gear but using a toughness gear reduces damage output and others have to compensate for your reduced damage since the event gets scaled by your presence...
5. Gerent charge attack will take 50% of your hp
6. Teq often surrounds itself with poison aoe and some slow damaging aoe and sometimes suck you underground if not careful.
7. Both boss events have chance of failure if ppl didn't participate enough ... Enough mushrooms not stomped, 6 ppl handling turret doesn't use skill 2 off cooldown and was trolling

If i recall correctly they reduce the HP of both bosses, so while they still hit hard they arent as durable. Astral probably knows a bit more though.

[Crystal Paladin.3871]

5 minutes ago, Dante.1763 said:

If i recall correctly they reduce the HP of both bosses, so while they still hit hard they arent as durable. Astral probably knows a bit more though.

Maybe they fixed the boss to scale properly since we can't expect every event participant to take the event seriously and most ppl just stand and watch occasionally tag monsters. if boss has too much tough and vitality, maybe the event would be boring like how they made the crack in the ice, brahm Rox elite svanir fight and elite spider fight

Edited July 20, 2021 by Crystal Paladin.3871

[Cyninja.2954]

9 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

It would be different if this was made for hard core players in the first place. It wasn't. It's probably the most beloved event in the history of the game. Giving it to casuals for a week and taking it away is a horrible decision. Give the hard core guys  something without taking something good away from the casuals is smart. This is just going to cause bad feelings.  A lot of them. It's not good for the game.

Let's be honest here, without even getting into the actual difficulty of the event given it is not that difficult but just requires a lot of organization (and the success rate back during season 1 was FAR lower than the current implementation, which is contrary to your claim that this event was intended for casual play).

 

Every time content gets added to the game which is remotely challenging or not solo friendly, the forums flare up in anger by a certain minority. You yourself where VERY critical of some Icebrood Saga achievements and requirements if I recall. This is absolutely unrelated to the origin of the content.

 

It's the typical:

As long as I am happy with the content which gets delivered, everything is fine. As soon as content (or content difficulty) gets added which I disprove of, the others are supposed to compromise and have their content of choice changed.

 

The only issue being: there is a severe lack of new challenging content added to the game for a very long time. No amount of compromise or argument bending changes this simple fact. People could be at least honest enough to mention that they are absolutely against any type of challenging content, instead of this bs. That opinion at least can be respected.

Edited July 20, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[Dante.1763]

1 minute ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Let's be honest here, without even getting into the actual difficulty of the event given it is not that difficult but just requires a lot of organization (and the success rate back during season 1 was FAR lower than the current implementation, which is contrary to your claim that this event was intended for casual play).

 

Every time content gets added to the game which is remotely challenging or not solo friendly, the forums flare up in anger by a certain minority. You yourself where VERY critical of some Icebrood Saga achievements and requirements if I recall. This is absolutely unrelated to the origin of the content.

 

It's the typical:

As long as I am happy with the content which gets delivered, everything is fine. As soon as content (or content difficulty) gets added which I disprove of, the others are supposed to compromise and have their content of choice changed.

 

The only issue being: there is a severe lack of new challenging content added to the game for a very long time. No amount of compromise or argument bending changes this simple fact.

If they made it all optional or toggleable, and didnt lock meta achievments behind the harder content id be all for more challenging content being introduced, anet however keeps trying to force players into said content and it has yet to work.

 

Ibs had the issue of locking the meta behind strikes, a move that i still hate, despite personally enjoying harder content due to it locking friends and family out of the meta.

 

Let players choose to go into a harder instance, do not force it. At the same time, if players really just want more challenge then the harder content should have the exact same rewards, if its truly the challenge they are after. I dont think thats the case.

 

Regardless, most of the players seem to want the public version to stay.

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, Dante.1763 said:

If i recall correctly they reduce the HP of both bosses, so while they still hit hard they arent as durable. Astral probably knows a bit more though.

Here is the rundown i did once for Tequatl:

The Gerent ones i don't really remember specifics (i know they did a significant HP nerf, but am not sure if that was all) but it went overnight from a meta that usually failed into one that usually won. But of the things that changed: maybe you do remember, that in the pre-nerf Gerent cc-ing it caused the event to fail, because it started to jump around and became impossible to dps down in time? Now cc-ing is not an issue, and it's not just a matter of lower HPs.

[Cyninja.2954]

20 minutes ago, Dante.1763 said:

If they made it all optional or toggleable, and didnt lock meta achievments behind the harder content id be all for more challenging content being introduced, anet however keeps trying to force players into said content and it has yet to work.

 

Ibs had the issue of locking the meta behind strikes, a move that i still hate, despite personally enjoying harder content due to it locking friends and family out of the meta.

 

Let players choose to go into a harder instance, do not force it. At the same time, if players really just want more challenge then the harder content should have the exact same rewards, if its truly the challenge they are after. I dont think thats the case.

 

Regardless, most of the players seem to want the public version to stay.

Oh I'm not saying I disagree.

 

For years I was, and still am, in favor of containing more difficult content to instances and away from story and open world content. I've repeatedly said so in the past.

 

Yet, when the announcements were made that said more challenging content would be reduced, and even before that the campaigning on the forums for removal of said content, a subset of players felt vindicated in their believe that this game was supposed to be without any challenging content.

 

Now let's turn the clock forward, the last living world season had some of the most grindy, and in some cases semi challenging, content to date. Far above what some players were used to, indicating that losing the player base which enjoys challenging content is not in the developers interest and they are trying to hit some kind of compromise (which no one fully was happy with). Now suddenly there are all these arguments and compromises offered at the expense of the niche content added. Where were those ideas and offers in the past when the cuts to challenging content were announced?

 

Here is the reality as I see it:

If you want relaxing and easy content in specific areas of the game (say story and open world), you have to make sure there is challenging content in other areas. Unless you (not you specifically) are of the impression that this game can do without part of its player base. In which case be ready to be disappointed if the developers disagree.

Edited July 20, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[Dante.1763]

2 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Here is the rundown i did once for Tequatl:

The Gerent ones i don't really remember specifics (i know they did a significant HP nerf, but am not sure if that was all) but it went overnight from a meta that usually failed into one that usually won. But of the things that changed: maybe you do remember, that in the pre-nerf Gerent cc-ing it caused the event to fail, because it started to jump around and became impossible to dps down in time? Now cc-ing is not an issue, and it's not just a matter of lower HPs.

Appreciate that write up! Bit more than i thought actually.

 

I do remember the Gerant acting different than it does now, but i cant remember any direct changes off the top of my head.

[Vayne.8563]

32 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Let's be honest here, without even getting into the actual difficulty of the event given it is not that difficult but just requires a lot of organization (and the success rate back during season 1 was FAR lower than the current implementation, which is contrary to your claim that this event was intended for casual play).

 

Every time content gets added to the game which is remotely challenging or not solo friendly, the forums flare up in anger by a certain minority. You yourself where VERY critical of some Icebrood Saga achievements and requirements if I recall. This is absolutely unrelated to the origin of the content.

 

It's the typical:

As long as I am happy with the content which gets delivered, everything is fine. As soon as content (or content difficulty) gets added which I disprove of, the others are supposed to compromise and have their content of choice changed.

 

The only issue being: there is a severe lack of new challenging content added to the game for a very long time. No amount of compromise or argument bending changes this simple fact. People could be at least honest enough to mention that they are absolutely against any type of challenging content, instead of this bs. That opinion at least can be respected.

The reason why I say it's intended for casual play is that I had a casual guild of hundreds of players who ran it and got the achievements and yeah, it took them a while and yeah, they failed sometimes, but they were able to learn.  We succeed more now because of power creep and people knowing the game better, but beyond that, taking the public instance away will absolutely stop casuals from doing this content. You may not think that's a problem.  I think it is.

If nothing else the optics for it are terrible, right or wrong.  Because at the end of the day it's never about the truth, it's about what people think/feel/believe. And you can tell a casual over and over again that it's not that hard and that they can get it down even without the public instance, but many casuals won't join the private instance, many will feel disenfranchised, and that's bad for the game.

Because seven years ago, no one had a squad that they could get kicked from while doing the event. I mean you could have kicked them but they could still do the event. That's a change that will make a lot of people angry. An angry player base isn't great for the game, particularly when it's the majority (in my opinion anyway).

[Dante.1763]

12 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Oh I'm not saying I disagree.

 

For years I was, and still am, in favor of containing more difficult content to instances and away from story and open world content. I've repeatedly said so in the past.

 

Yet, when the announcements were made that said more challenging content would be reduced, and even before that the campaigning on the forums for removal of said content, a subset of players felt vindicated in their believe that this game was supposed to be without any challenging content.

 

Now let's turn the clock forward, the last living world season had some of the most grindy, and in some cases semi challenging, content to date. Far above what some players were used to, indicating that losing the player base which enjoys challenging content is not in the developers interest and they are trying to hit some kind of compromise (which no one fully was happy with). Now suddenly there are all these arguments and compromises offered at the expense of the niche content added. Where were those ideas and offers in the past when the cuts to challenging content were announced?

 

Here is the reality as I see it:

If you want relaxing and easy content in specific areas of the game (say story and open world), you have to make sure there is challenging content in other areas. Unless you (not you specifically) are of the impression that this game can do without part of its player base. In which case be ready to be disappointed if the developers disagree.

I dont disagree at all honestly. Anet has had an issue since HOT was released when it comes to balancing the amount of content.

Itd be harder in the short term, but long term it would be better for the game if every mode(including raids) had difficulty levels.

 

Normal, hard, challenge, but i doubt anet can or will do that 😞

Edited July 20, 2021 by Dante.1763

[Cyninja.2954]

10 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

The reason why I say it's intended for casual play is that I had a casual guild of hundreds of players who ran it and got the achievements and yeah, it took them a while and yeah, they failed sometimes, but they were able to learn.  We succeed more now because of power creep and people knowing the game better, but beyond that, taking the public instance away will absolutely stop casuals from doing this content. You may not think that's a problem.  I think it is.

Oh I agree on that front. In fact I am absolutely for a recurring event cycle of which this event should be part.

10 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

If nothing else the optics for it are terrible, right or wrong.  Because at the end of the day it's never about the truth, it's about what people think/feel/believe. And you can tell a casual over and over again that it's not that hard and that they can get it down even without the public instance, but many casuals won't join the private instance, many will feel disenfranchised, and that's bad for the game.

Sure, I get that. It's likely a matter of simplicity as well. The public version is just 1 click at a specific time. No hassle with the LFG, no demands, no requirements, just click and go.

10 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Because seven years ago, no one had a squad that they could get kicked from while doing the event. I mean you could have kicked them but they could still do the event. That's a change that will make a lot of people angry. An angry player base isn't great for the game, particularly when it's the majority (in my opinion anyway).

True, I had not looked at it this way.

 

To expand on this though, as to not let rose tinted glasses cover our memory: I also recall a ton of cursing and blaming in map chat in failed instances (something which has not changed over the years, just take a look at Tarir or any other meta which fails). The main difference being that players had no choice in whom they would be grouped with.

[Gorem.8104]

This event is perfectly balanced, and fun, thank you Anet, I will miss it being public dreadfully. 

 

I did more Marionette's then I have done Dragonstorms non-AFK. Not that that is hard, considering I only ever did like 2 Dragonstorms. 

[Cuks.8241]

I've done it 6 times, 5 times private and 1 time public. Public seems nicely balanced. In private I had about 50% success rate if I don't count day 1 when we were failing a lot. I did join commanders that were trying to organize players, not just some random group that entered before even full.

I probably already done it more time then Dragonstorm because that one is just boring. 

For private I would not change the fight at all. You can get 8 attempts pretty easily if people don't slack in lanes, 7 for sure. This is enough to cover for some fails. What private really needs is strike like NPC with ready check before the start. This way players can put down food, remove afkers and organize lanes before start of the event. This would increase success rate substantially. 

[Vayne.8563]

8 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Oh I agree on that front. In fact I am absolutely for a recurring event cycle of which this event should be part.

Sure, I get that. It's likely a matter of simplicity as well. The public version is just 1 click at a specific time. No hassle with the LFG, no demands, no requirements, just click and go.

True, I had not looked at it this way.

 

To expand on this though, as to not let rose tinted glasses cover our memory: I also recall a ton of cursing and blaming in map chat in failed instances (something which has not changed over the years, just take a look at Tarir or any other meta which fails). The main difference being that players had no choice in whom they would be grouped with.

It went in cycles.  In the beginning the harder core players, and achievement hunters got it done and it was completed almost all the time.  Weekends went backwards because people who hadn't tried it and only played weekends came on. Then most people who got their achievements stopped doing it and it happened again, and we failed some and then those people started learning.

There was no mega server back then, so it also depended greatly on what server you were on. On US servers, people guested to Blackgate and Tarnished Coast to get it done, but it generally worked if you were there early and waited to get into that map, and you weren't guesting. I was on Tarnished Coast. I assure you I don't have rose colored glasses.

There were a couple of instances were people did get blamed and those are the ones you remember. There were times we failed and people were friendly too. But of 150 people there, there was usually only one or two blaming and a couple defending as well. 

The same thing happened this year.  We started off doing it in public every time. I ran it a bunch of times before I started failing, like a dozen. Then people who were gun ho about achievements had them and the first fails started. It got a bit worse over the weekend.  I could predict it like clockwork.  Yes, we failed several times this year too.  But it was worse in private instances by a country mile.

[Vayne.8563]

11 hours ago, Crystal Paladin.3871 said:

Are they? I didn't know that. Both boss has some one shot mechanics... Stunbreaks can save you like 10% of times other times you just die

1. If you get knocked back into a teq finger poison aoe , u die in 1.5 secs or less.
2. If you get slapped by gerent into its blue expanding donut, u die
3. gerent often places a blue donut under it sneakily when the area covered by player skills flashing and light effects and fireworks all around, it kills most players
4. If debris fall on you when gerent does its rampage ground slamming, you die unless you use some toughness gear but using a toughness gear reduces damage output and others have to compensate for your reduced damage since the event gets scaled by your presence...
5. Gerent charge attack will take 50% of your hp
6. Teq often surrounds itself with poison aoe and some slow damaging aoe and sometimes suck you underground if not careful.
7. Both boss events have chance of failure if ppl didn't participate enough ... Enough mushrooms not stomped, 6 ppl handling turret doesn't use skill 2 off cooldown and was trolling

I don't remember Teq getting nerfed, but it did take 4 days of major guilds doing it before it was defeated the first time. The Gerent when it came out was only defeatable by one single guild and if you didn't get on their map  you were out of luck. I avoided it completely until they nerfed it. I don't enjoy that kind of content. I don't mind a challenge. The problem is every one has diffrent skill and experience levels and what's challenging for one person is easy for another, so this whole challenging content issue we keep having is problematic at its inception.

Hard core raiders who do CMs will find anything I find challenging easy.   I do want to be challenged.  But I want to be able to succeed at some reasonable rate. And that rate also varies from person to person. I won't fail something 50 times to succeed. I don't have the energy for that.  Arthritis and bursitis in my neck and shoulder have taught me not to spend hours doing something intense.