The condition hate is cemented into the community

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

23 minutes ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

for every braindead condi build I can name another brainded power build.
so hard to play prot holo, so hard to play power scourge, so hard to play power minion mancer, so hard to play power core ranger.
hurr durr Power more skill, me aim my mortar kit at my feet, im skill

To be fair minionmancer core ranger and scourge have a stupid amount of condi pressure even if they run power. Take that away and they are pretty bad builds.

[Aktium.9506]

21 hours ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

So many power specs....

 

Flicked through it, all the Scourges seem to be running Avatar with Staff/Axe + X

 

That's a Power build you know, even if it's a Scourge.

[Leonidrex.5649]

53 minutes ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

To be fair minionmancer core ranger and scourge have a stupid amount of condi pressure even if they run power. Take that away and they are pretty bad builds.

ah yes, the [ looks at condi damage from power core ranger ]
400 dmg from dagger 5, 800 damage from axe 3, and 1300 dmg from dagger 4.
ah yes its a STUPID amount of condi pressure indeed!

[Dadnir.5038]

57 minutes ago, Aktium.9506 said:

Flicked through it, all the Scourges seem to be running Avatar with Staff/Axe + X

 

That's a Power build you know, even if it's a Scourge.

 

In a way that's the point of the thread, people have so much hate toward conditions that they bash you believing you're using a condi build while in fact you use a power build.

[KrHome.1920]

People see one vigor corrupted to bleed, that ticks with 22 damage and call it a condi encounter.

 

Some things do never change - even after 9 years.

 

[DoomNexus.5324]

I've just noticed that I deal around 3k condi damage per tick with my all power build.. Just saying. You don't need to play with hybrid or condi stats to do kitten all damage with conditions.

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

5 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

ah yes, the [ looks at condi damage from power core ranger ]
400 dmg from dagger 5, 800 damage from axe 3, and 1300 dmg from dagger 4.
ah yes its a STUPID amount of condi pressure indeed!

non damaging condis exist

[Aylpse.6280]

This is nothing. I remember when mailing people hard leather rope was a thing. I don't need to elaborate on the implication.  Yes, the pvp community is toxic and even honorless most of the time. There isn't much that can be done about it aside trying your best to shrug it off.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

My 2 reasons why hate condition:

- You don't know if the dmg Conditions you have on your bar are dangerous or not until after the first tick. Which can already be to late in some cases. 

 

That 10 Stacks of burning could just be from power classes and therefore can be ignored or maybe it is from a condi build and blow you up next second. 

 

 

- You can't move the Condition bar. 

For power classes, the fight is going on in the middle of the screen while against a condi class, my eyes need to be in 2 places at one's. 

 

If you could move the bar to the middle of the screen, condi builds would be far less annoying. 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 2, 2021 by DanAlcedo.3281
Added a missing word

[Leonidrex.5649]

7 hours ago, Aylpse.6280 said:

This is nothing. I remember when mailing people hard leather rope was a thing. I don't need to elaborate on the implication.  Yes, the pvp community is toxic and even honorless most of the time. There isn't much that can be done about it aside trying your best to shrug it off.

I used to keep a vial of salt for people that pmed me whith their whines 😄

[Leonidrex.5649]

8 hours ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

non damaging condis exist

ah yes, the cripple on a side node, 1 chill, 1 weakness, 1 immob
pressure out of the whazoo 

[DoomNexus.5324]

8 hours ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

non damaging condis exist

I'm honestly not even against non damaging condis tbh as long as it's not getting spammed with weakness and blinds from wells every second or "passively" feared every other second. I think cc's and snares should be less accessible in general.

 

14 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

ah yes, the [ looks at condi damage from power core ranger ]
400 dmg from dagger 5, 800 damage from axe 3, and 1300 dmg from dagger 4.
ah yes its a STUPID amount of condi pressure indeed!

How do you get to those numbers? 400 from dagger 5? Are you calculating the dmg numbers based on the the tooltip or do you test every ability and sum them up or something else?
But honestly yea I think even this is overtuned. These are just 3 skills, you aren't even skilled for that kind of damage and still take off ~22% HP of a berserker build. Considering it's not even the main dmg, how is this appropriate? And inbefore someone counters "yOu CaN cLeAnSe" -> yea but it is against a kitten power build, what am I supposed to do against an actual hybrid build if I'm wasting all my cleanses on power build burns and kitten.

[Leonidrex.5649]

25 minutes ago, DoomNexus.5324 said:

I'm honestly not even against non damaging condis tbh as long as it's not getting spammed with weakness and blinds from wells every second or "passively" feared every other second. I think cc's and snares should be less accessible in general.

 

How do you get to those numbers? 400 from dagger 5? Are you calculating the dmg numbers based on the the tooltip or do you test every ability and sum them up or something else?
But honestly yea I think even this is overtuned. These are just 3 skills, you aren't even skilled for that kind of damage and still take off ~22% HP of a berserker build. Considering it's not even the main dmg, how is this appropriate? And inbefore someone counters "yOu CaN cLeAnSe" -> yea but it is against a kitten power build, what am I supposed to do against an actual hybrid build if I'm wasting all my cleanses on power build burns and kitten.

you can avoid the skills themselves ?
you want do dodge the skills anyways as the condi comes from the skills that will hit you for ~3-4k anyways.
You dont dodge winters bite due to its amazing 800 bleed, you dodge it cuz it will crit you for 4k, and chill you which is kitten.
I just pointing out that if you manage to eat every single " condi " skill from power core ranger you will take
~800 bleed ( entangle, assuming you stand in the entire kitten thing )
~400 bleed from dagger 5, x2 since you get to throw it twice ( assuming it decides to actually land ) [ 800 dmg ]
~140 poison from a trait, x2 due to pet, and due to swap you prolly gonna proc it 3-4 times ( lets say 600 dmg )
~800 from winters bite.
~ 1400 from dagger 4
800+600+800+800+1400 = 4400 dmg.
Multiply it by some vulnerability, lets be generous and say you have 15 stacks on average.
thats 5060 dmg is it not?
When taking something absurd out of my kitten, assuming you eat every skill, stand in entire entangle, never cleanse you still take only 5k dmg.
In reality even without trying to cleanse you WILL cleanse half of it, 20% of it will whiff ( dagger 5 ), remaining half you will avoid as its a power damaging skill that you want to dodge ( winters bite, dagger 4 ) and you are left with ~1000 dmg you get once every 20s
You will NEVER eat the full thing. as you will be dead before the conditions get to do damage.
winters bite + dagger 4+2x dagger 5 would take 75% of berserker build anyways, and at this point you are kittened conditions or not.

EDIT
and hybrid builds dont exist, they are super flawed and usually have disadvantage of power and condi with none of the bonuses, I tried, it doesnt work. closest thing is condi slb/mirage, with something along the 25/75 to 33/66 damage split.
 

Edited August 2, 2021 by Leonidrex.5649

[Taku.2015]

Conditions are inherently unfun to play against. A big powerful attack will always be more interesting to play against, simply because usually the animation and everything will tell you exactly what is happening.

imo this is a huge clarity thing.

Edited August 2, 2021 by Taku.2015

[choovanski.5462]

what is it they say again? "you can lead a horse to water but you can't teach it to drink"

 

I would contest only players who have an aversion to learning to play hate conditions, and this is why they will never stop hating them. they don't understand the game well enough to know the current blood scourge is a power build, or that the entire meta is power. they refuse to listen or learn, and just want to cry about condis even when they are fighting power builds.

 

it's a L2P issue, and these people will be forever silver players and will always be getting farmed because they don't want to learn. there is no reason to help them, they don't want help, they want to die and cry.

[DoomNexus.5324]

1 hour ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

you can avoid the skills themselves ?

In reality even without trying to cleanse you WILL cleanse half of it, 20% of it will whiff ( dagger 5 )

EDIT
and hybrid builds dont exist, they are super flawed and usually have disadvantage of power and condi with none of the bonuses, I tried, it doesnt work. closest thing is condi slb/mirage, with something along the 25/75 to 33/66 damage split.

No kitten? I can dodge skills? Pog.
I honestly don't get the statement "in reality even without trying to cleanse you WILL cleanse half of it"? What do you mean? I play a lot of builds that have terrible condi cleanse, I couldn't get rid of them even if I tried. That's my main issue with condi in general. You have a couple classes that have ez access to tons of condi cleanses and against them or teams with a support that has have a brain condi is kitten while on the other hand there are a lot of specs which have basically no condi cleanse at all.
And I don't really buy your damage numbers there tbh. Again: Are you summing up all the numbers shown in the tooltips (because it seems like it) or are you actually checking it after attacking -> because this will be much higher.

I'm playing a build atm with a tiny bit of torment and burn access with full power stats and traits according to this. No condition damage stats or traits whatsoever and if I just hit 3 of my weapon skills I'll deal between 2.5k and 3k condi damage per tick alone (-> actual fights, not tooltip calculations lol).
You don't need to actually use hybrid or condi stats to do crazy amounts of condi dmg.

[Genesis.5169]

Just a reminder, i'm playing power, everyone is playing power too.

Multiple people in this thread has explained everyone is playing power.

A video with a tourny shows everyone playing power.

 

And the people's response.?

Conditions are bad and overpowered.

 

It's been proven undoubtedly now, Anet go forward armed with the knowledge that this is irrational hate, and the condition changes and pvp changes alienated everyone who actually plays pvp and the people who you balanced it for who plays pvp casually will never ever be satisfied, and don't play pvp nearly enough to have a valid opinion on the matter. We have come to a point when i queue i see the same faces every game, i think its fair to say you gave these type's of people a fair run and it has done nothing. They still cry still lose and have and are still wrong and pvp has less then its ever had before.

 

I think this thread has already served its purpose, but folks if you wanna continue to say condition is OP in a absolute power meta be my guest.

 

Edited August 2, 2021 by Genesis.5169

[KrHome.1920]

7 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

You don't know if the dmg Conditions you have on your bar are dangerous or not until after the first tick. Which can already be to late in some cases.

 

There is a classic view of condi damage you can enable in the game options. This shows you the damage of each single instance of a damaging condition via a white number. You can immediately see the damage that is applied. E.g. if you see a bunch of 300s flying around, you know you are eating a lot of burn damage currently.

 

I prefer this over the tick value, that is often hard to notice. 

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

11 minutes ago, Genesis.5169 said:

Just a reminder, i'm playing power, i am telling everyone everyone is playing power too.

Multiple people in this thread has explained everyone is playing power.

A video with a tourny shows everyone playing power.

 

And the people's response.?

Conditions are bad and overpowered.

 

It's been proven undoubtedly now, Anet go forward armed with the knowledge that this is irrational hate, and the condition changes and pvp changes alienated everyone who actually plays pvp and the people who you balanced it for who plays pvp casually will never ever be satisfied, and don't play pvp nearly enough to have a valid opinion on the matter. We have come to a point when i queue i see the same faces every game, i think its fair to say you gave these type's of people a fair run and it has done nothing. They still cry still lose and have and are still wrong and pvp has less then its ever had before.

 

I think this thread has already served its purpose, but folks if you wanna continue to say condition is OP in a absolute power meta be my guest.

 

This topic has been brought up countless times. Condis are rarely op, but they have always been spammy and annoying. Having to constantly monitor tiny numbers on little UI icons that spaz out above your skill bar is bad design. Not being able to prioritize what condis you cleanse is annoying. High impact condis like weakness or blind being applied passively or on pulsing attacks isnt interactive gameplay. People know power metas are far more common, condis can still be stupid and oppressive.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

23 minutes ago, KrHome.1920 said:

 

There is a classic view of condi damage you can enable in the game options. This shows you the damage of each single instance of a damaging condition via a white number. You can immediately see the damage that is applied. E.g. if you see a bunch of 300s flying around, you know you are eating a lot of burn damage currently.

 

I prefer this over the tick value, that is often hard to notice. 

 

If I get the dmg in a single chunk or many small ones doesn't fix the problem that the information the condi bar gives you is not enough to make fast decisions. 

 

It's always wait and see. 

 

 

[DoomNexus.5324]

1 hour ago, Genesis.5169 said:

Just a reminder, i'm playing power, everyone is playing power too.

Multiple people in this thread has explained everyone is playing power.

A video with a tourny shows everyone playing power.

Yea you really don't get it huh?...
Simple terms now:

Condi against a team with support -> super bad
Condi against classes with poor condi cleanse -> super broken

Top tier players -> support -> condi not good -> lower tier players -> no support -> condi stronk.

And:
condi base damage already stronk -> no need to use condi stats -> power stats are meta
(I'm not even the only one, people in my discord server have tried it and they reached similarly high tick damage with pure power builds)

 

Judging by another post you've made you are maining mesmer? Yea.. No wonder you want condis to get buffed.. No thanks, I don't want another condi mirage tyranny era.
I'm out, this is ridiculous. Everyone claiming condi is underperforming idk what to say.. congratz on being mechanically gifted and playing on legendary level or having a good support in your team maybe?

[Genesis.5169]

18 minutes ago, DoomNexus.5324 said:

Yea you really don't get it huh?...
Simple terms now:

Condi against a team with support -> super bad
Condi against classes with poor condi cleanse -> super broken

Top tier players -> support -> condi not good -> lower tier players -> no support -> condi stronk.

And:
condi base damage already stronk -> no need to use condi stats -> power stats are meta
(I'm not even the only one, people in my discord server have tried it and they reached similarly high tick damage with pure power builds)

 

Judging by another post you've made you are maining mesmer? Yea.. No wonder you want condis to get buffed.. No thanks, I don't want another condi mirage tyranny era.
I'm out, this is ridiculous. Everyone claiming condi is underperforming idk what to say.. congratz on being mechanically gifted and playing on legendary level or having a good support in your team maybe?

 

I quit mesmer when they took mirage's endurance bar away, i move directly to FB and Scrapper right now i play theif. As what this thread stated in the very first post even the pm i got said i was playing on a thief, the rest of your post doesn't make any sense, you go on and say were in a power meta and say condition damage is strong in the same sentence then you say condition builds don't need condition stats, this is a lie and you know it i don't even know why you need to lie here perhaps irrational hatred?

 

Also everyone has condition cleanse(s) either automatically on ICD or on heal you don't need a support you just need to not be dumb.

 

Also crazy how this has nothing to do with the topic but yet you find the place to assume i want conditions to be buffed for mesmers and to assume this is anything outside of point out the fact that none of this hatred is reasonable, continue proving my point man. I would be just as satisfied with a nerf to cleansing. The point of this thread is to show how little the community knows about the game, and how just knowledge of a condition on there bar makes people go crazy.

 

*Mirage could use it's second endurance bar back though*

Edited August 2, 2021 by Genesis.5169
Clarity

[Crab Fear.1624]

Successful condi builds feel oppressive and my perception was that some did some combination of these things:

 

1. They are generally AOE primary builds
2. They are successful at range because LOS is not always useful because of wall/object wrapping or minions/clones/pets closing the distance, keeping player at safe distance. (projectiles are los-able)
3. Condi also applies movement conditions, blind, and weakness, shutting down power builds
4. Amulet choices are still effective even with the highest health or armor, and runes give even more damage based on health or armor, and power does not have this option.
5. Sigils can apply condis or increase the durations unconditionally, but power relies on meeting criteria to increase damage
6. The most effective condi users also have the best condi clearing potential
7. One stat damage allows the user to worry less about utility choices in terms of boosting damage.

 

Edited August 2, 2021 by Crab Fear.1624

[Leonidrex.5649]

7 minutes ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

Successful condi builds feel oppressive and my perception was that some did some combination of these things:

 

1. They are generally AOE primary builds
2. They are successful at range because LOS is not always useful because of wall/object wrapping or minions/clones/pets closing the distance, keeping player at safe distance. (projectiles are los-able)
3. Condi also applies movement conditions, blind, and weakness, shutting down power builds
4. Amulet choices are still effective even with the highest health or armor, and runes give even more damage based on health or armor, and power does not have this option.
5. Sigils can apply condis or increase the durations unconditionally, but power relies on meeting criteria to increase damage
6. The most effective condi users also have the best condi clearing potential
7. One stat damage allows the user to worry less about utility choices in terms of boosting damage.

 

1 Same thing as power
2 same thing as power
3 Power builds also apply movement conditions, blind and weakness, power herald as all 3 you mentioned while being a staple power build that has been around for a while.
4 Doesnt matter, amulet that gives 2k condi damage doesnt exist, condi amulets give same survivability as power amulets, if you want carrion level survivability, use avatar as power build. Everyone uses maruder/demo/berserker cuz they can afford to give up survivability for damage, due to traits or having different playstyle, condi is more limited.
5 No, the difference is that power sigils give you power damage, condi give you DURATION, which not always gives you damage ( which is a criteria in itself ) but also they work on 1 condition only, while doing nothing for all the others ( which is also a criteria in itself ). For example, my build that deals 50-70% of its damage with bleed, wont use bleed duration sigil, as they do nothing, nobody is going to keep the bleed for kittening 15s.
6 Depends on the build, I played around with Csoulbeast that only had healing skill as condi cleanse, in general power builds can afford to take less, since they dont have to stick around as long.
7 There is no such thing as one stat damage, amulet that gives only condi damage does not exist, im FORCED to take power + condi or crit chance + condi, which means AT LEAST 2 stats.  Power builds can do exactly the same thing by taking avatar amulet

You just made general points that can apply to all builds, not just condi or power, tell me nades holo is not succesfull at range? tell me its not primary aoe build, tell me it doesnt apply condis, or power renegade, long range, big aoe, low cd, bunch of everything. It all applies.

[Cynz.9437]

12 minutes ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

Successful condi builds feel oppressive and my perception was that some did some combination of these things:

 

1. They are generally AOE primary builds
2. They are successful at range because LOS is not always useful because of wall/object wrapping or minions/clones/pets closing the distance, keeping player at safe distance. (projectiles are los-able)
3. Condi also applies movement conditions, blind, and weakness, shutting down power builds
4. Amulet choices are still effective even with the highest health or armor, and runes give even more damage based on health or armor, and power does not have this option.
5. Sigils can apply condis or increase the durations unconditionally, but power relies on meeting criteria to increase damage
6. The most effective condi users also have the best condi clearing potential
7. One stat damage allows the user to worry less about utility choices in terms of boosting damage.

 

 

I would add rather hard to read animations or "spammable" nature of condi application in some cases (just AA) which can make it frustrating experience. Say if zerker warrior runs to me and uses their hard hitting spells, i usually can see them well and know if i don't dodge/negate it somehow i might die. A lot of condi spells are either somehow passive, auras, applied via AA, have little animation, AoE and similar. No matter what you dodge, you probably will end up with whole array of condis anyway. I am not saying that condi builds shouldn't exist (i think they keep bunkers in check to extend) but i can see where the so called "hate" comes from.