Harbinger is unusable aside from open world, Change my Mind!

[Tobias.8632]

Try this build in pvp

https://imgur.com/a/SsQ3s0K

Like a more powerful version of the meta core minionmancer, seems pretty good

[jpsssss.7530]

First off I played it... I still think it is the worst variant of condi necro for WvW and PvP, save for maybe reaper. It's infinite healing is no where near infinite as the heals seem to shrink with your health bar... getting stunned in shroud is far too punishing due to blight given that it still has a longer cooldown than holoforge and locks your utilities away.

 

 Pistol dealing torment makes it feel bad outside of PvE. Its alright, but I'd have preferred bleeding given how torment is so much weaker in PvP and WvW...

 

The short of it is, for pvp and wvw, I don't see myself playing this condi build over scourge, or core...

 

The offensive auras only having 180 radius feels counter intuitive to the shroud, but might be better on power.

 

I'm goint to be trying blood then spite power harbinturd tomorrow. My expectations are so low so, it might turn out pleasantly surprising. 

[sniperman.1738]

They need to remove the health sacrifice, like other games have tried to design classes where they sacrifice health for power or using x skill sacrifices x health for x power, like every game that has tried the concept has abandoned it in the realization that it just doesn't work and is utter trash, plus the fact that their is far better ways for them to make necromancers elixiers unique outside of blight its not even funny, like they could turn some of the elixirs into throwable objects that apply some form of debuff or condition, but there is no reason for all this health sacrifice and such.

[Warscythes.9307]

15 minutes ago, sniperman.1738 said:

They need to remove the health sacrifice, like other games have tried to design classes where they sacrifice health for power or using x skill sacrifices x health for x power, like every game that has tried the concept has abandoned it in the realization that it just doesn't work and is utter trash, plus the fact that their is far better ways for them to make necromancers elixiers unique outside of blight its not even funny, like they could turn some of the elixirs into throwable objects that apply some form of debuff or condition, but there is no reason for all this health sacrifice and such.

The reason there is the health sacrifice is because people like me have asked for it.

 

For years until very recently necros are generally on bottom of the pve dps benchmark and for a good reason. Because you cannot and should not have high damage if you are tanky innately. Imagine how you would feel as a thief or ele where a class with 8k more hp and a second hp bar would do the same amount of damage you do. Scourge is overpowered right now for a good reason because of it. The damage is certainly great but not 45k bench great, but it is so tanky while offering so much barrier that it feel it shouldn't do this much damage.

 

But people want to do top tier dps, so what's the solution? Trade off your passive defense for damage and this is it. I am not going to claim everything is rainbow rosy, but right now we finally have a spec where it is as squishy as an ele which means it should do one of the highest damage in the entire game. It is overperforming at the moment but the concept is what people have wanted. This is not some random attempt out of nowhere.

Edited August 18, 2021 by Warscythes.9307

[sniperman.1738]

4 minutes ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

The reason there is the health sacrifice is because people like me have asked for it.

 

For years until very recently necros are generally on bottom of the pve dps benchmark and for a good reason. Because you cannot and should not have high damage if you are tanky innately. Imagine how you would feel as a thief or ele where a class with 8k more hp and a second hp bar would do the same amount of damage you do. Scourge is overpowered right now for a good reason because of it. The damage is certainly great but not 45k bench great, but it is so tanky while offering so much barrier that it feel it shouldn't do this much damage.

 

But people want to do top tier dps, so what's the solution? Trade off your passive defense for damage and this is it. I am not going to claim everything is rainbow rosy, but right now we finally have a spec where it is as squishy as an ele which means it should do one of the highest damage in the entire game. It is overperforming at the moment but the concept is what people have wanted. This is not some random attempt out of nowhere.

But you don't need health sacrifice to gain power, there are far better design concepts for gaining power that don't involve sacrificing health, I mean right now harbinger feels like a total mess with no synergy in its design, harbinger doesn't even make anyone think of health sacrifice or even blight.

[Asum.4960]

21 minutes ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

The reason there is the health sacrifice is because people like me have asked for it.

 

For years until very recently necros are generally on bottom of the pve dps benchmark and for a good reason. Because you cannot and should not have high damage if you are tanky innately. Imagine how you would feel as a thief or ele where a class with 8k more hp and a second hp bar would do the same amount of damage you do. Scourge is overpowered right now for a good reason because of it. The damage is certainly great but not 45k bench great, but it is so tanky while offering so much barrier that it feel it shouldn't do this much damage.

 

But people want to do top tier dps, so what's the solution? Trade off your passive defense for damage and this is it. I am not going to claim everything is rainbow rosy, but right now we finally have a spec where it is as squishy as an ele which means it should do one of the highest damage in the entire game. It is overperforming at the moment but the concept is what people have wanted. This is not some random attempt out of nowhere.

HP isn't the only metric though, at least for other professions, when it comes to defense. Just for Necro. 

I'm absolutely in support of a Shroud and Barrier free high dps spec for Necro, as that's something I wanted for years. 

 

What's questionable is to go the whole step of a 50% HP reduction further. Necro just isn't designed as 11k HP profession. 

There is a reason Core and Reaper have 46.000 effective HP with Shrouds innate 50% damage reduction (Scourge arguably even more with Barrier frequency and Blood as Sand). To go from that to 19k HP without active defenses, or even the medium 16k? Okay, but 11k is imo overkill without scaling defenses, passive damage reduction or defensive procs, such as what Ele, Guardian or Thief have (along with higher base armor for the latter two).

Edited August 18, 2021 by Asum.4960

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

1 minute ago, sniperman.1738 said:

But you don't need health sacrifice to gain power, there are far better design concepts for gaining power that don't involve sacrificing health, I mean right now harbinger feels like a total mess with no synergy in its design, harbinger doesn't even make anyone think of health sacrifice or even blight.

Personally the only thing I like about harbinger right now is it’s funky trade off mechanic. But they dropped the ball on the synergies…I would be okay with blight penalizing me…but that’s all that it does and nothing else, aside from the one trait that boosts your damage per blight stack. I think if blight had a lot more interactions with other mechanics it wouldn’t feel as punishing.

 

In the same token; all of the new specs have this general lack of synergy. 
 

 

[Warscythes.9307]

9 minutes ago, sniperman.1738 said:

But you don't need health sacrifice to gain power, there are far better design concepts for gaining power that don't involve sacrificing health, I mean right now harbinger feels like a total mess with no synergy in its design, harbinger doesn't even make anyone think of health sacrifice or even blight.

We are talking about game balance here. What do you suggest necro give up for damage then if not health and shroud, because that is the one thing that separates thief/ele and necros. Is the passive defense, that's it. Seriously if you have a suggestion that would allow necro to do top tier dps without completely screwing over thief and ele I am all ears, because this has been a topic that has been talked to death.

Edited August 18, 2021 by Warscythes.9307

[SeTect.5918]

4 minutes ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

We are talking about game balance here. What do you suggest necro give up for damage then if not health and shroud, because that is the one thing that separates thief/ele and necros. Is the passive defense, that's it. Seriously if you have a suggestion that would allow necro to do top tier dps without completely screwing over thief and ele I am all ears, because this has been a topic that has been talked to death.

I feel like they should keep it like it is atm but with more blight synergy and more sustain.  

Right now you are killing 80% of your sustain (plus traits like scourges 5% dmg reduction per Sand shade) for 10-20% dmg boost. In fractals you have a too high Chance to be 1hit. The hp is as low as eles but without barrier and damage reductions as earth traitline. 

[Warscythes.9307]

6 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

HP isn't the only metric though, at least for other professions, when it comes to defense. Just for Necro. 

I'm absolutely in support of a Shroud and Barrier free high dps spec for Necro, as that's something I wanted for years. 

 

What's questionable is to go the whole step of a 50% HP reduction further. Necro just isn't designed as 11k HP profession. 

There is a reason Core and Reaper have 46.000 effective HP. To go from that to 19k HP without active defenses, or even the medium 16k? Okay, but 11k is imo overkill without scaling defenses, passive damage reduction or defensive procs, such as what Ele, Guardian or Thief have (along with higher base armor for the latter two).

Higher base armor really doesn't mean much, heavy and light is I think about 12% damage difference? That is nothing. Yes necro is designed without active defense in mind and I am assuming I am talking about PvE here. But none of the 3 classes have active defense that is so far beyond harbringer that somehow makes the spec unplayable in PvE. Do you know what is harbringer's real defense? It is torment runes because it is BIS for the build, with it you have incredible amount of sustain. Your active defense is the two dodge and the evade just like everyone else. This is all you need in PvE, if you need more than that with vigor and torment healing then you are doing something incredibly wrong.

 

Honestly just play harbringer in a raid, are you squishy? Yes. Are you so squishy that it is literally unplayable? No, because ele dealt with it before just fine because they did stupid amount of damage to compensate it. So can you with similar amount of defense.

[Warscythes.9307]

6 minutes ago, SeTect.5918 said:

I feel like they should keep it like it is atm but with more blight synergy and more sustain.  

Right now you are killing 80% of your sustain (plus traits like scourges 5% dmg reduction per Sand shade) for 10-20% dmg boost. In fractals you have a too high Chance to be 1hit. The hp is as low as eles but without barrier and damage reductions as earth traitline. 

Damage reduction is not sustain, healing is sustain which you actually have a ton because of torment runes.

 

Also no it is not just 20% damage boost, Harbringer is benching 45k. Do you know how stupid that number is especially it is not a meme rotation like DE? In fractals your passive defense doesn't matter as much, in mob fights is mostly blind fields and projectile defense. In places like 100CM you have generally have a HB which give out aegis, will you be squisher? Yes, will you be so squishy that you can't play the game? No, because again if eles can do it then so can you. Also you should have full pots when doing fractals, that's quite a bit.

 

That being said, scourge is doing too much damage mostly because torment is overtuned, but that's another topic.

Edited August 18, 2021 by Warscythes.9307

[sniperman.1738]

17 minutes ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

We are talking about game balance here. What do you suggest necro give up for damage then if not health and shroud, because that is the one thing that separates thief/ele and necros. Is the passive defense, that's it. Seriously if you have a suggestion that would allow necro to do top tier dps without completely screwing over thief and ele I am all ears, because this has been a topic that has been talked to death.

I mean why not just have necro's sacrifice toughness for power, considering most necros build toughness these days.

[Asum.4960]

14 minutes ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

Higher base armor really doesn't mean much, heavy and light is I think about 12% damage difference? That is nothing. Yes necro is designed without active defense in mind and I am assuming I am talking about PvE here. But none of the 3 classes have active defense that is so far beyond harbringer that somehow makes the spec unplayable in PvE. Do you know what is harbringer's real defense? It is torment runes because it is BIS for the build, with it you have incredible amount of sustain. Your active defense is the two dodge and the evade just like everyone else. This is all you need in PvE, if you need more than that with vigor and torment healing then you are doing something incredibly wrong.

 

Honestly just play harbringer in a raid, are you squishy? Yes. Are you so squishy that it is literally unplayable? No, because ele dealt with it before just fine because they did stupid amount of damage to compensate it. So can you with similar amount of defense.

I never said that it's "unplayable" and don't care much for such hyperbole. But getting randomly oneshot by stray mechanics frequently just isn't fun gameplay. 

Harbinger right now is in the spot where it either takes very minor damage which it easily sustains via things like Tormenting Runes, while doing imo absurd damage, or it's dead in the snap of a finger. 

 

I think neither the power creep of pushing that peak DPS higher and higher is fun or healthy for the game (DPS skipping mechanics is already way too rampant in Raids and Fractals especially), nor is getting oneshot by mechanics and attacks that clearly aren't designed to do so without telegraphs or skillfull counterplay in place. 

 

Harbinger isn't unplayable, far from it. It has some of the, if not the most damage in the game right now with one of the simplest rotations in the game. It having slightly more Health (or passive damage reduction, or passive defencive proc, anything) and slightly lower damage though, is imo just both better for Harbinger gameplay as well as the game as a whole. 

 

Harbinger reached a critical level of squishy that enables unfun and unhealthy gameplay. "Similar amount of defense" isn't going to cut it as argument when that similar amount is the difference between a oneshot, and being just fine and getting healed up/resustaining. 

 

Raising Harbingers defense to around Weaver level, and lowering it's damage accordingly as well is imo the way to go.

 

 

Edited August 18, 2021 by Asum.4960

[Warscythes.9307]

1 minute ago, sniperman.1738 said:

I mean why not just have necro's sacrifice toughness for power, considering most necros build toughness these days.

No they don't, what are you talking about. Nobody builds toughness on necro. Are you talking about PvP? I am talking about PvE.

Edited August 18, 2021 by Warscythes.9307

[Warscythes.9307]

1 minute ago, Asum.4960 said:

I never said that it's "unplayable" and don't care much for such hyperbole. But getting randomly oneshot by stray mechanics frequently just isn't fun gameplay. 

Harbinger right now is in the spot where it either takes very minor damage which it easily sustains via things like Tormenting Runes, while doing imo absurd damage, or it's dead in the snap of a finger. 

 

I think neither the power creep of pushing that peak DPS higher and higher is fun or healthy for the game (DPS skipping mechanics is already way to rampant in Raids and Fractals especially), nor is getting oneshot by mechanics and attacks that clearly aren't designed to do such without telegraphs or skillfull counterplay in place. 

 

Harbinger isn't unplayable, far from it. It having slightly more Health and slightly lower damage though, is imo just both better for both Harbinger gameplay as well as the game as a whole. 

 

 

I am actually generally in favor of bumping both ele and thief's hp up so the baseline minimal hp will be higher. Ideally guardian too but that's going to require a lot of tuning.

 

So yes, I am actually ok with more defense and slightly lower damage, but I would argue this will need to happen to ele and thief who are suffering from a very similar problem especially necro can just go scourge at worst case scenario. Harbringer's dps will be nerfed no doubt and it's general squishness is on par with two. If you propose the change to harbringer then it will need to happen to the other two as well. That's my whole concern, while I do play a lot of necro I would absolutely hate it to apply it just to this class. What you are suggesting will likely require a much bigger general class design pass.

[Asum.4960]

5 minutes ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

I am actually generally in favor of bumping both ele and thief's hp up so the baseline minimal hp will be higher. Ideally guardian too but that's going to require a lot of tuning.

 

So yes, I am actually ok with more defense and slightly lower damage, but I would argue this will need to happen to ele and thief who are suffering from a very similar problem especially necro can just go scourge at worst case scenario. Harbringer's dps will be nerfed no doubt and it's general squishness is on par with two. If you propose the change to harbringer then it will need to happen to the other two as well. That's my whole concern, while I do play a lot of necro I would absolutely hate it to apply it just to this class. What you are suggesting will likely require a much bigger general class design pass.

I never was a fan of the 11k HP, long before Harbinger. While Ele, Thief and especially Guard at least are designed around it (with Guard being my main Profession alongside Necro for the last 5 years, and Thief having been my main Profession from launch till HoT), I personally don't like the 100 to 0 without counterplay gameplay. 

 

And yes, other professions having to deal with poor game design (which largely untelegraphed oneshots imo are) is no justification for thrusting that same plight onto others.

[Warscythes.9307]

1 minute ago, Asum.4960 said:

I never was a fan of the 11k HP, long before Harbinger. While Ele, Thief and especially Guard at least are designed around it (with Guard being my main Profession alongside Necro for the last 5 years, and Thief having been my main Profession from launch till HoT), I personally don't like the 100 to 0 without counterplay gameplay. 

 

And yes, other professions having to deal with poor game design (which largely untelegraphed oneshots imo are) is no justification for thrusting that same plight onto others.

But I would argue it does because if you want top dps, you will need to be as squishy as the squishiest. I don't want great dps, I want top of the tier which means it will need to be squishest of the squish. This means I would rather have the entire hp floor raised up or just leave it as it is but give me the number that is should be. As you said it is not unplayable, so I will take the damage alongside with the squishness and be fine with it. If the hp is going to be raised then it needs to happen to others as well, otherwise is just not balanced. 

[Asum.4960]

3 hours ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

But I would argue it does because if you want top dps, you will need to be as squishy as the squishiest. I don't want great dps, I want top of the tier which means it will need to be squishest of the squish. This means I would rather have the entire hp floor raised up or just leave it as it is but give me the number that is should be. As you said it is not unplayable, so I will take the damage alongside with the squishness and be fine with it. If the hp is going to be raised then it needs to happen to others as well, otherwise is just not balanced. 

People are way to obsessed with this idea of perfect balance on paper at the expense of fun these days, despite so many substantial glossed over inconsistencies anyway. 

If HP is such a stickler for people because it's so highly visible and Harbinger needs to be "balanced" with Ele that way, they should just, as I said since the first preview many times on the forum, add a 0.5 or 1% incoming Damage Reduction per Blight Stack to Alchemic Vigor. 

 

The spec would still be extremely squishy, still 11k HP "just like Ele!", no one would have noticed and it would have been perfectly fine, and healthier and more fun for the Harbinger gameplay experience. 

If they add it now it's already going to be a different perception and "unbalanced" to add more survivability to it, even despite Weaver having things like Barrier on Dual Skills with Elemental Refreshment and passive damage mitigation from things like Geomancer's Training too.

 

Honestly, it's imo just silly. The goal of game design is to make a fun game. And sure, if things are so unbalanced that it grossly disadvantages some players due to their preferences to a point of contention (like if Reaper did much more damage than Weaver, despite being innately much more tanky), then that's a problem, yes. 

But Harbinger getting a slight oneshot buffer (which again, Ele does actually have plenty of, from the above mentioned in the current PvE Meta, to things like Arcane Shield + passive trigger in Arcane Shielding in the old also super squishy but crazy high damage PvP Fresh air build) is well in line while still being among the, if not the, top of DPS. 

 

Except then we can talk about rotation difficulty, and how for example Harbinger can do ~8k more DPS than DH, Reaper, Scourge, Condi Berserker, Power Daredevil and on and on, by pretty much just holding down Auto Attack and spamming 2, on both Shroud and Pistol. Where is the balance in that? 

Do we now need to simplify the rotations of all those specs to appease the balance gods? Complicate or nerf Harbinger? It just goes endlessly.

 

Case and point, who cares about perfect balance, unless the balance is so out of whack it comes to the detriment of the game and player enjoyment, design for fun. It's okay if some things are a bit easier to play, if some things are a bit more tanky, if some do a bit bit more damage. 

What isn't fun (for the vast majority of players at least) are extremes. Currently, imo, Harbinger's squishyness is an extreme. 

And I'm right there with you, I'm going to play the hell out of Harbinger and top the meters just fine, I've also already brought Harbinger through the ringer with soloing everything from Fractals to Expansion HP's and Champion Group events - I'll be fine and I know it's far from unplayable. But I also know I'm part of an extremely small minority of player who solo's T4 Fractals for relaxed fun when I'm bored.

 

Unless Harbinger gets changes, I'll always think, this could be a lot more fun for a lot more people, and no one really would or should care about what it would take to get it there, such as a tiny hidden little modifier somewhere, which the profession it's compared to have to be balanced with already has and more.

Edited August 18, 2021 by Asum.4960

[SeTect.5918]

7 hours ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

 

 

Also no it is not just 20% damage boost, Harbringer is benching 45k. Do you know how stupid that number is especially it is not a meme rotation like DE?

Scourge doing 36k dps. 

36 x 1.2 = 43.2k

36 x 1.25 = 45k

Its 25% which is not very far from 20%. 

 

And we all know that having a harder rotation doesn't mean u should deal more damage. Anet doesn't work like this. 

 

I also never said its unplayable but the massive hp loss and shroud and dmg reductions are not worth like 25% more dps. 

You also think anet will keep it doing 45k? Me not.

So there will come dps nerfs. With dps nerfs it needs a blight nerf or sth like that imo.

Edited August 18, 2021 by SeTect.5918

[Warscythes.9307]

45 minutes ago, SeTect.5918 said:

Scourge doing 36k dps. 

36 x 1.2 = 43.2k

36 x 1.25 = 45k

Its 25% which is not very far from 20%. 

 

And we all know that having a harder rotation doesn't mean u should deal more damage. Anet doesn't work like this. 

 

I also never said its unplayable but the massive hp loss and shroud and dmg reductions are not worth like 25% more dps. 

You also think anet will keep it doing 45k? Me not.

So there will come dps nerfs. With dps nerfs it needs a blight nerf or sth like that imo.

I know the numbers, I am also telling you that if your perspective is just "lol that's just 20% more dps that's nothing for the trade off" then you are not remembering what happened to ele. Because this is the exact same thing, ele did about 20% more damage than the next top dps years ago and they dominated the meta despite being just as squishy as to now. Why? Because that damage is enough to make people willing to learn and adapt to it, you can live with that low amount of defense and it is perfectable doable as eles have done so years ago. Especially now that group support has gotten more and more crazy over the years, HB giving out constant aegis and easier ways to spread boons etc.

 

Will the dps be nerfed? Absolutely, 45k dps is stupid. Will there need to be compensation? No, not unless ele and thieves get buff to their base defense too because they are on the same level of squish.

[Warscythes.9307]

6 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

People are way to obsessed with this idea of perfect balance on paper at the expense of fun these days, despite so many substantial glossed over inconsistencies anyway. 

If HP is such a stickler for people because it's so highly visible and Harbinger needs to be "balanced" with Ele that way, they should just, as I said since the first preview many times on the forum, add a 0.5 or 1% incoming Damage Reduction per Blight Stack to Alchemic Vigor. 

 

The spec would still be extremely squishy, still 11k HP "just like Ele!", no one would have noticed and it would have been perfectly fine, and healthier and more fun for the Harbinger gameplay experience. 

If they add it now it's already going to be a different perception and "unbalanced" to add more survivability to it, even despite Weaver having things like Barrier on Dual Skills with Elemental Refreshment and passive damage mitigation from things like Geomancer's Training too.

 

Honestly, it's imo just silly. The goal of game design is to make a fun game. And sure, if things are so unbalanced that it grossly disadvantages some players due to their preferences to a point of contention (like if Reaper did much more damage than Weaver, despite being innately much more tanky), then that's a problem, yes. 

But Harbinger getting a slight oneshot buffer (which again, Ele does actually have plenty of, from the above mentioned in the current PvE Meta, to things like Arcane Shield + passive trigger in Arcane Shielding in the old also super squishy but crazy high damage PvP Fresh air build) is well in line while still being among the, if not the, top of DPS. 

 

Except then we can talk about rotation difficulty, and how for example Harbinger can do ~8k more DPS than DH, Reaper, Scourge, Condi Berserker, Power Daredevil and on and on, by pretty much just holding down Auto Attack and spamming 2, on both Shroud and Pistol. Where is the balance in that? 

Do we now need to simplify the rotations of all those specs to appease the balance gods? Complicate or nerf Harbinger? It just goes endlessly.

 

Case and point, who cares about perfect balance, unless the balance is so out of whack it comes to the detriment of the game and player enjoyment, design for fun. It's okay if some things are a bit easier to play, if some things are a bit more tanky, if some do a bit bit more damage. 

What isn't fun (for the vast majority of players at least) are extremes. Currently, imo, Harbinger's squishyness is an extreme. 

And I'm right there with you, I'm going to play the hell out of Harbinger and top the meters just fine, I've also already brought Harbinger through the ringer with soloing everything from Fractals to Expansion HP's and Champion Group events - I'll be fine and I know it's far from unplayable. But I also know I'm part of an extremely small minority of player who solo's T4 Fractals for relaxed fun when I'm bored.

 

Unless Harbinger gets changes, I'll always think, this could be a lot more fun for a lot more people, and no one really would or should care about what it would take to get it there, such as a tiny hidden little modifier somewhere, which the profession it's compared to have to be balanced with already has and more.

My feeling right now is that you are vastly overrating the amount of defense ele gets from geo and barriers in comparison to constant 12.5%-25% damage reduction modifier for blight were it introduced. Ele has the downstate meme right now for a reason, but they have always been this squishy, they just did overwhelming amount of damage to make up for it. "Bringing harbring" up to ele level so people will not get randomly one shot means nothing because if ele gets one shot then your proposal would still mean harbringer get one shot. It is why I am saying we either buff everyone or we just leave it be, because I don't want the other classes who had this issue for years get shafted.

 

Until then if you want one shot buffer? You can actually do it yourself, take trailblazer. Dps tradeoff is minimal and then just replace as you see fit as you get more comfortable. I did dhuum green kite for a long time at the raid release with trailblazer because I wasn't used to the fight, slowly replaced the pieces with viper and voila. Nowadays you just run torment runes though.

 

Rotation difficulty wise? Absolutely, is not fair comparing weaver rotation to harbringer rotation. The question though is how much dps. How much dps should a class do if the rotation is so much harder compared to a spec that work by pressing 2 buttons? Like say condi thieves. I have my opinions but I don't really have an exact number, but I do think it should be included when factoring balance because real fight is not golem benchmark unless we are talking about chess. You have to think about things like range, movement, mechanics, if you can trade your dps utility for other utility for minimal dps loss etc etc.

 

I think the crux of our difference right now is this "Harbinger's squishyness is an extreme." I think I agree in the sense that yes it is extremely squishy but no I don't think is extreme. Because I think this is about on par with ele level of extreme squish and you can offset it with trailblazer. So if you want to buff Harbinger defense, buff ele and thieves as well, they need it just as much as Harbinger does and adjust dps accordingly.

 

[Lacko.6572]

I am just gonna leave these links here.

 

 

 

 

 

[Fangoth.4503]

On 8/17/2021 at 1:45 AM, jpsssss.7530 said:

With the current iteration, even accounting for the bonus 3600 health baseline, the blight can and will take you to slightly less health than an elementalist with no vitality investment. It wouldn't be too bad, but this also reduces our life force pool, and using this elite spec the Harbinger will not have a shroud to fall back on.

it just mean that they have to start use wasd on their keyboard, nothing dramatic

[Tungsten Monarch.6058]

nice video but if anything it shows the Necro needing the damage mitigation for a sacrifice in health.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

2 hours ago, Lacko.6572 said:

I am just gonna leave these links here.

 

 

 

 

I dunno, the very first fight on this one features a thief that stood in lich form and still won the duel...that's not a great outlook in my book 🤣