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A New Theory About Why The Sylvari Are Resistant To Elder Dragon Corruption

Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭
edited April 7, 2020 in Lore

So, I've been doing more thinking than I should be lately. The substance of my brain fever is the sylvari immunity question, which has always been a conundrum that never quite worked it's way out of my head.

Here is some postulation that's a bit out there but might just work: We believe that the sylvari are immune to Elder Dragon corruption because the Dream protects them. However, what if the Dream isn't quite the reason?

Here's the theory: Some of the playable races were seeded through the Bloodstone, before the gods found it. The sylvari were seeded through the Maguuma shard, after the gods split the stone into five pieces. The Maguuma shard was aligned to Mordremoth. Ergo, the sylvari are immune to the corruption of all but one of the Elder Dragons because they've benefitted from the spell, cast by the gods, that sundered the Bloodstone into five pieces.

Comments

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    I thought it was canonically confirmed that they were incorruptible, because they already were the minions of Mordremoth.
    That's why Aurene was able to corrupt Caithe after Mordremoth died.

    Same. Sometimes the game just gives us what we need after all

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 8, 2020

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    Here's the theory: Some of the playable races were seeded through the Bloodstone, before the gods found it. The sylvari were seeded through the Maguuma shard, after the gods split the stone into five pieces. The Maguuma shard was aligned to Mordremoth. Ergo, the sylvari are immune to the corruption of all but one of the Elder Dragons because they've benefitted from the spell, cast by the gods, that sundered the Bloodstone into five pieces.

    Chronology doesn't work there. The Bloodstone was one individual item when the gods found it. There was no "Maguuma shard" at that time.

    The gods had it for an unknown amount of time until Year 0, where they shattered it into five pieces in Arah (we visit the site of its breaking in the Seer path). They put these pieces into the volcano Abaddon's Mouth, which centuries later then erupted. So the "Maguuma bloodstone" only existed for 1072 years before the Pale Tree was even planted, and was in the Maguuma itself for even less. All of which well after "the gods found it" since, in technicality, the gods made the "Maguuma shard".

    There are other issues as well:

    1. The Bloodstones are not aligned to any Elder Dragon - their purpose is to hide magic from the Elder Dragons and given the complete and utter lack of the Elder Dragon's attention, even when they're literally adjacent to the things (Zhaitan had easy access to both Ring of Fire and Shiverpeak bloodstones, while Primordus literally burrowed beneath the RoF bloodstone, and Mordy's vines exist everywhere around Bloodstone Fen except within the zone itself), proves that it works even when fractured.
    2. The sylvari are immune to Mordremoth's corruption too. This is why Mordremoth has to use loopholes by exploiting his own connection to the Dream of Dreams. And this is why the Mordrem Guard were able to return to their old selves once separated from Mordremoth's whispers.
    3. If Bloodstones influenced living creatures at such a huge distance (the Maguuma Bloodstone and the Pale Tree are literally the entire jungle apart), then we would see dozens of other races with similar influences. Practically everyone in western and central Central Tyria would have been influenced by the Bloodstones.

    @Randulf.7614 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    I thought it was canonically confirmed that they were incorruptible, because they already were the minions of Mordremoth.
    That's why Aurene was able to corrupt Caithe after Mordremoth died.

    Same. Sometimes the game just gives us what we need after all

    Nope. That's player supposition that was, ironically, born as (unproven) support for why the sylvari were dragon minions before the latter got proven.

    Basically, after EoD, it was theorized that sylvari were dragon minions because they were new, and their immunity is proof of such (because... no explanation). After Season 2, the arguments then turned to "they're immune because they're dragon minions".

    However:

    Avatar of the Pale Tree: There are those who reject my protection. It leaves them vulnerable in ways they cannot imagine, in ways they never were before. I shield you as best I can and will for as long as I can.
    Pact Commander: You're talking about dragon corruption. We've been immune to it.
    Avatar of the Pale Tree: Yes. In the past, my children have been immune. But Mordremoth's corruption is powerful, and just as Zhaitan created the undead from so many creatures, so Mordremoth's corruption can change you.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rallying_Call#Dialogue

    Ogden Stonehealer: The Pale Tree is said to protect you from the corruption of the other dragons. They both rejected her, no?
    Ogden Stonehealer: It makes sense that sylvari would be vulnerable to Mordremoth, a plant-based being like yourselves.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hidden_Arcana#At_the_Durmand_Priory

    The Elder Dragon can implant thoughts in its creations—thoughts they may even believe to be their own—and only a combination of immense willpower and the protection of the Pale Tree can prevent Mordremoth from taking control. Sylvari receive calls to action in the form of the Wyld Hunt—or the Dark Hunt, for Nightmare Courtiers—and these compulsions act as an access point for Mordremoth’s influence.

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/points-of-interest-episode-18-summary/

    TL;DR, immunity is stated, even post-reveal, to come from their connection (aka the Dream) with the Pale Tree.

    It's like the whole "the DSD is related to Cantha" thing. It started as some very popular theory, and has turned into accepted fact by the playerbase, even those who weren't around when the theory began.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 8, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    Nope. That's player supposition that was, ironically, born as (unproven) support for why the sylvari were dragon minions before the latter got proven.

    Basically, after EoD, it was theorized that sylvari were dragon minions because they were new, and their immunity is proof of such (because... no explanation). After Season 2, the arguments then turned to "they're immune because they're dragon minions".

    However:

    Avatar of the Pale Tree: There are those who reject my protection. It leaves them vulnerable in ways they cannot imagine, in ways they never were before. I shield you as best I can and will for as long as I can.
    Pact Commander: You're talking about dragon corruption. We've been immune to it.
    Avatar of the Pale Tree: Yes. In the past, my children have been immune. But Mordremoth's corruption is powerful, and just as Zhaitan created the undead from so many creatures, so Mordremoth's corruption can change you.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rallying_Call#Dialogue

    Ogden Stonehealer: The Pale Tree is said to protect you from the corruption of the other dragons. They both rejected her, no?
    Ogden Stonehealer: It makes sense that sylvari would be vulnerable to Mordremoth, a plant-based being like yourselves.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hidden_Arcana#At_the_Durmand_Priory

    The Elder Dragon can implant thoughts in its creations—thoughts they may even believe to be their own—and only a combination of immense willpower and the protection of the Pale Tree can prevent Mordremoth from taking control. Sylvari receive calls to action in the form of the Wyld Hunt—or the Dark Hunt, for Nightmare Courtiers—and these compulsions act as an access point for Mordremoth’s influence.

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/points-of-interest-episode-18-summary/

    TL;DR, immunity is stated, even post-reveal, to come from their connection (aka the Dream) with the Pale Tree.

    It's like the whole "the DSD is related to Cantha" thing. It started as some very popular theory, and has turned into accepted fact by the playerbase, even those who weren't around when the theory began.

    My issue with what the Pale Tree says in the above quote and even from Ogden is that the Pale Tree doesn’t want the world to know that she is from the Jungle Dragon. She has to give a reason on why the Sylvari can’t be corrupted by Elder Dragons as well as to why all the Sylvari player characters don’t all become Mordrem. The Pale Tree can’t say oh it’s because we are dragon minions that’s why, she has to give another reason, ah yes I protect them by the Dream, which in terms of Mordremoth is true, but not for the others.

    So now you have Lore which is now becoming a problem for game mechanics because you have to give a reason why all the Sylvari that your playing don’t turn into mindless dragon minions.

    Ok so why don’t Sylvari become Risen, because they are dragon minions. They can’t seem to corrupt each other and we still haven’t seen it happen in game either.

    How come all Sylvari don’t become Mordrem, because the Pale Tree is able to protect them and even less so because of her attack in Season 2.

    Even Taimi mentions this in All or Nothing about dragon minions not being able to corrupt other dragon minions. We haven’t actually seen a branded turn into an Icebrood or a Risen into a Mordrem.

  • Ehh, Glint has no issue with being ED spawn. I don't think the Pale Tree would or the Sylvari since they have proven themselves the whole time.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    My issue with what the Pale Tree says in the above quote and even from Ogden is that the Pale Tree doesn’t want the world to know that she is from the Jungle Dragon. She has to give a reason on why the Sylvari can’t be corrupted by Elder Dragons as well as to why all the Sylvari player characters don’t all become Mordrem. The Pale Tree can’t say oh it’s because we are dragon minions that’s why, she has to give another reason, ah yes I protect them by the Dream, which in terms of Mordremoth is true, but not for the others.

    So now you have Lore which is now becoming a problem for game mechanics because you have to give a reason why all the Sylvari that your playing don’t turn into mindless dragon minions.

    Ok so why don’t Sylvari become Risen, because they are dragon minions. They can’t seem to corrupt each other and we still haven’t seen it happen in game either.

    How come all Sylvari don’t become Mordrem, because the Pale Tree is able to protect them and even less so because of her attack in Season 2.

    I've heard that argument before, but it falls apart with my third source, which establishes the exact same thing as what the Pale Tree said, but after the reveal about sylvari being dragon minions, while simultaneously being from an external out-of-character source thus not subject to unreliable narrator.

    Also, game mechanics? No player character can be corrupted, and it isn't like all non-sylvari exposed/killed around dragon minions become dragon minions themselves. There's no issue with game mechanics, because mechanics completely ignore the idea of dragon corruption unless it is explicitly scripted.

    Even Taimi mentions this in All or Nothing about dragon minions not being able to corrupt other dragon minions. We haven’t actually seen a branded turn into an Icebrood or a Risen into a Mordrem.

    Except we have. Subject Alpha was a dragon minion created using corrupting magic from Zhaitan, Mordremoth, Primordus, Jormag, and Kralkatorrik, effectively making it a branded-risen-icebrood-mordrem-destroyer. Though mechanically it only counts as a risen apparently, in lore it was created by the Inquest by just exposing a single entity to multiple dragon corruptions. Same with Kudu's Monster, though it has a much more risen appearance than Alpha.

    Taimi can be wrong at times since she doesn't know everything, and this is a time when we have factual proof - which she wasn't around for - that her small statement is false.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    My issue with what the Pale Tree says in the above quote and even from Ogden is that the Pale Tree doesn’t want the world to know that she is from the Jungle Dragon. She has to give a reason on why the Sylvari can’t be corrupted by Elder Dragons as well as to why all the Sylvari player characters don’t all become Mordrem. The Pale Tree can’t say oh it’s because we are dragon minions that’s why, she has to give another reason, ah yes I protect them by the Dream, which in terms of Mordremoth is true, but not for the others.

    So now you have Lore which is now becoming a problem for game mechanics because you have to give a reason why all the Sylvari that your playing don’t turn into mindless dragon minions.

    Ok so why don’t Sylvari become Risen, because they are dragon minions. They can’t seem to corrupt each other and we still haven’t seen it happen in game either.

    How come all Sylvari don’t become Mordrem, because the Pale Tree is able to protect them and even less so because of her attack in Season 2.

    I've heard that argument before, but it falls apart with my third source, which establishes the exact same thing as what the Pale Tree said, but after the reveal about sylvari being dragon minions, while simultaneously being from an external out-of-character source thus not subject to unreliable narrator.

    Also, game mechanics? No player character can be corrupted, and it isn't like all non-sylvari exposed/killed around dragon minions become dragon minions themselves. There's no issue with game mechanics, because mechanics completely ignore the idea of dragon corruption unless it is explicitly scripted.

    Even Taimi mentions this in All or Nothing about dragon minions not being able to corrupt other dragon minions. We haven’t actually seen a branded turn into an Icebrood or a Risen into a Mordrem.

    Except we have. Subject Alpha was a dragon minion created using corrupting magic from Zhaitan, Mordremoth, Primordus, Jormag, and Kralkatorrik, effectively making it a branded-risen-icebrood-mordrem-destroyer. Though mechanically it only counts as a risen apparently, in lore it was created by the Inquest by just exposing a single entity to multiple dragon corruptions. Same with Kudu's Monster, though it has a much more risen appearance than Alpha.

    Taimi can be wrong at times since she doesn't know everything, and this is a time when we have factual proof - which she wasn't around for - that her small statement is false.

    Yes, but then Anet decides that Sylvari can become awakened, which is odd because the Dream protects against powerful dragon magic, but doesn’t against Joko’s reanimating magic? Wait huh? If the Dream gave Sylvari protection from being corrupted into Risen, Icebrood, Branded, etc, but doesn’t against Joko reanimating them under his command? Last I checked Joko isn’t as powerful as an Elder Dragon yet his power can circumvent the Dream. How does that make sense?

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 10, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    Here's the theory: Some of the playable races were seeded through the Bloodstone, before the gods found it. The sylvari were seeded through the Maguuma shard, after the gods split the stone into five pieces. The Maguuma shard was aligned to Mordremoth. Ergo, the sylvari are immune to the corruption of all but one of the Elder Dragons because they've benefitted from the spell, cast by the gods, that sundered the Bloodstone into five pieces.

    Chronology doesn't work there. The Bloodstone was one individual item when the gods found it. There was no "Maguuma shard" at that time.

    Agreed. The Bloodstone was originally unified. The entire premise of the theory relies on this detail.

    The gods had it for an unknown amount of time until Year 0, where they shattered it into five pieces in Arah (we visit the site of its breaking in the Seer path). They put these pieces into the volcano Abaddon's Mouth, which centuries later then erupted. So the "Maguuma bloodstone" only existed for 1072 years before the Pale Tree was even planted, and was in the Maguuma itself for even less. All of which well after "the gods found it" since, in technicality, the gods made the "Maguuma shard".

    There are other issues as well:

    1. The Bloodstones are not aligned to any Elder Dragon - their purpose is to hide magic from the Elder Dragons and given the complete and utter lack of the Elder Dragon's attention, even when they're literally adjacent to the things (Zhaitan had easy access to both Ring of Fire and Shiverpeak bloodstones, while Primordus literally burrowed beneath the RoF bloodstone, and Mordy's vines exist everywhere around Bloodstone Fen except within the zone itself), proves that it works even when fractured.

    That's a rather bold statement, Konig. Nothing is really known about the origin of the Bloodstone. Your response is as much a theory as my original post. Still, the Elder Dragons played a part in the story of the Bloodstone at least once: Zaithan's powers were used to help sunder it into five pieces, if memory serves faithfully.

    1. The sylvari are immune to Mordremoth's corruption too. This is why Mordremoth has to use loopholes by exploiting his own connection to the Dream of Dreams. And this is why the Mordrem Guard were able to return to their old selves once separated from Mordremoth's whispers.

    On the contrary, they're resistant to Mordremoth's corruption and immune to the corruption of every other Elder Dragon.

    1. If Bloodstones influenced living creatures at such a huge distance (the Maguuma Bloodstone and the Pale Tree are literally the entire jungle apart), then we would see dozens of other races with similar influences. Practically everyone in western and central Central Tyria would have been influenced by the Bloodstones.

    The theory proposes that races are seeded through the original Bloodstone, or through one of it's shards, by sacrificing living beings atop it, as we see the White Mantle doing in both GW1 and GW2. Thus far, we only know that humans were sacrificed atop the Maguuma shard and that, briefly, they had contact with the Ring of Fire and Shiverpeaks shards too. Hence, although the pieces of the Bloodstone undoubtedly influenced many beings across the face of Tyria, notably humans (e.g. the Guild Wars), this theory proposes that such influence would not be enough to confer immunity to certain kinds of Elder Dragon corruption.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    My issue with what the Pale Tree says in the above quote and even from Ogden is that the Pale Tree doesn’t want the world to know that she is from the Jungle Dragon. She has to give a reason on why the Sylvari can’t be corrupted by Elder Dragons as well as to why all the Sylvari player characters don’t all become Mordrem. The Pale Tree can’t say oh it’s because we are dragon minions that’s why, she has to give another reason, ah yes I protect them by the Dream, which in terms of Mordremoth is true, but not for the others.

    So now you have Lore which is now becoming a problem for game mechanics because you have to give a reason why all the Sylvari that your playing don’t turn into mindless dragon minions.

    Ok so why don’t Sylvari become Risen, because they are dragon minions. They can’t seem to corrupt each other and we still haven’t seen it happen in game either.

    How come all Sylvari don’t become Mordrem, because the Pale Tree is able to protect them and even less so because of her attack in Season 2.

    I've heard that argument before, but it falls apart with my third source, which establishes the exact same thing as what the Pale Tree said, but after the reveal about sylvari being dragon minions, while simultaneously being from an external out-of-character source thus not subject to unreliable narrator.

    Taimi can be wrong at times since she doesn't know everything, and this is a time when we have factual proof - which she wasn't around for - that her small statement is false.

    Couple things here, I looked at the third source, which I presume is just the text and not the full video. The text states that the with immense will power and protection from the Pale Tree can protect Sylvari from Mordremoth, which I obviously have to agree with, however I believe this protection does not cover the other dragons.

    The reason I said game mechanics is if there was no protection from the Pale Tree then all Sylvari including the pc would belong to Mordremoth, so Anet has to invent a way to say why you still have Sylvari with free will, hence the protection, when Mordremoth wakes up.

    It still stands the Pale tree did not want the pc knowing that she herself was a minion of Mordremoth as well as the Sylvari. She has to explain why this is so. The truth is they are dragon minions that’s why they can’t be corrupted. The third source is just confirming that the only way the Sylvari still have their senses and not be completely submit is because of this protection that the Pale Tree grants them.

    As for Subject Alpha and Kudu’s monster, these entities were made by the Inquest most likely in an artificial capacity.

    We also have this line:

    Taimi: I thought dragon minions couldn't be corrupted by other dragons! Is it 'cause her egg absorbed Mordremoth's magic? How—
    Caithe: Taimi, it's all right. She asked, and I accepted. This isn't corruption—it's connection.

    If it’s known knowledge that dragons can corrupt other dragon’s minions, why is Taimi asking this question and then with the question of her egg absorbing Mordremoth’s magic? Why haven’t we seen this in game other then when the Inquest are doing these strange experiments?

  • Jimbru.6014Jimbru.6014 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 10, 2020

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    We also have this line:

    Taimi: I thought dragon minions couldn't be corrupted by other dragons! Is it 'cause her egg absorbed Mordremoth's magic? How—
    Caithe: Taimi, it's all right. She asked, and I accepted. This isn't corruption—it's connection.

    If it’s known knowledge that dragons can corrupt other dragon’s minions, why is Taimi asking this question and then with the question of her egg absorbing Mordremoth’s magic? Why haven’t we seen this in game other then when the Inquest are doing these strange experiments?

    The impression I have from that scene is that Aurene was able to "brand" Caithe because Caithe consented. That conscious act of consent was a deliberate step outside the Pale Tree's protection which allowed the change.

    The Soundless made a similar jump when they deliberately cut themselves off from the Pale Tree. I imagine that many of the "bad guy" Sylvari among groups like the Covington pirates are probably Soundless. But unlike Caithe, they were vulnerable while Mordremoth was alive and active, and they didn't have Aurene waiting right there to catch them. I imagine Mordremoth probably wiped out the Soundless or nearly so, and most of the few survivors probably returned to the Pale Tree's protection. That being said, with Mordremoth now dead, more Sylvari might now feel safer taking the Soundless path; in time, that could lead to the development of an entire new Sylvari culture independent of the Pale Tree. Too bad GW2 has basically forgotten the Pale Tree even exists since the end of HoT, because there's a great deal to explore about Sylvari culture post-Mordremoth.

  • I notice we're trying to separate Sylvari from the Pale Tree when talking about their protection from other dragons corruption. But it seems the "natural order" for how sylvari were supposed to operate as dragon minions was in symbiosis with the Pale Tree. So, the Sylvari may well be immune to corruption from other ED's but the "mechanical" method is through the Pale Tree as her fruit and spawn as she was the fruit and spawn of her own patron ED. Now, as a dragon champion, she still has ability to provide power to her own "adds" without needing a constant empowerment from her former patron becasue as a champion, her power was imbued in order for her to act as a trusted general.

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 10, 2020

    @Jimbru.6014 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    We also have this line:

    Taimi: I thought dragon minions couldn't be corrupted by other dragons! Is it 'cause her egg absorbed Mordremoth's magic? How—
    Caithe: Taimi, it's all right. She asked, and I accepted. This isn't corruption—it's connection.

    If it’s known knowledge that dragons can corrupt other dragon’s minions, why is Taimi asking this question and then with the question of her egg absorbing Mordremoth’s magic? Why haven’t we seen this in game other then when the Inquest are doing these strange experiments?

    The impression I have from that scene is that Aurene was able to "brand" Caithe because Caithe consented. That conscious act of consent was a deliberate step outside the Pale Tree's protection which allowed the change.

    The Soundless made a similar jump when they deliberately cut themselves off from the Pale Tree. I imagine that many of the "bad guy" Sylvari among groups like the Covington pirates are probably Soundless. But unlike Caithe, they were vulnerable while Mordremoth was alive and active, and they didn't have Aurene waiting right there to catch them. I imagine Mordremoth probably wiped out the Soundless or nearly so, and most of the few survivors probably returned to the Pale Tree's protection. That being said, with Mordremoth now dead, more Sylvari might now feel safer taking the Soundless path; in time, that could lead to the development of an entire new Sylvari culture independent of the Pale Tree. Too bad GW2 has basically forgotten the Pale Tree even exists since the end of HoT, because there's a great deal to explore about Sylvari culture post-Mordremoth.

    You're right. The Soundless were heavily damaged by Mordremoth awakening while The Nightmare Court was able to more easily resist it.

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    My issue with what the Pale Tree says in the above quote and even from Ogden is that the Pale Tree doesn’t want the world to know that she is from the Jungle Dragon. She has to give a reason on why the Sylvari can’t be corrupted by Elder Dragons as well as to why all the Sylvari player characters don’t all become Mordrem. The Pale Tree can’t say oh it’s because we are dragon minions that’s why, she has to give another reason, ah yes I protect them by the Dream, which in terms of Mordremoth is true, but not for the others.

    So now you have Lore which is now becoming a problem for game mechanics because you have to give a reason why all the Sylvari that your playing don’t turn into mindless dragon minions.

    Ok so why don’t Sylvari become Risen, because they are dragon minions. They can’t seem to corrupt each other and we still haven’t seen it happen in game either.

    How come all Sylvari don’t become Mordrem, because the Pale Tree is able to protect them and even less so because of her attack in Season 2.

    I've heard that argument before, but it falls apart with my third source, which establishes the exact same thing as what the Pale Tree said, but after the reveal about sylvari being dragon minions, while simultaneously being from an external out-of-character source thus not subject to unreliable narrator.

    Taimi can be wrong at times since she doesn't know everything, and this is a time when we have factual proof - which she wasn't around for - that her small statement is false.

    Couple things here, I looked at the third source, which I presume is just the text and not the full video. The text states that the with immense will power and protection from the Pale Tree can protect Sylvari from Mordremoth, which I obviously have to agree with, however I believe this protection does not cover the other dragons.

    The reason I said game mechanics is if there was no protection from the Pale Tree then all Sylvari including the pc would belong to Mordremoth, so Anet has to invent a way to say why you still have Sylvari with free will, hence the protection, when Mordremoth wakes up.

    It still stands the Pale tree did not want the pc knowing that she herself was a minion of Mordremoth as well as the Sylvari. She has to explain why this is so. The truth is they are dragon minions that’s why they can’t be corrupted. The third source is just confirming that the only way the Sylvari still have their senses and not be completely submit is because of this protection that the Pale Tree grants them.

    As for Subject Alpha and Kudu’s monster, these entities were made by the Inquest most likely in an artificial capacity.

    We also have this line:

    Taimi: I thought dragon minions couldn't be corrupted by other dragons! Is it 'cause her egg absorbed Mordremoth's magic? How—
    Caithe: Taimi, it's all right. She asked, and I accepted. This isn't corruption—it's connection.

    If it’s known knowledge that dragons can corrupt other dragon’s minions, why is Taimi asking this question and then with the question of her egg absorbing Mordremoth’s magic? Why haven’t we seen this in game other then when the Inquest are doing these strange experiments?

    Absorbing Mordremoth magic by the egg is show at his death. We see the energy spread along the ley lines all the way to the egg chamber.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @Jimbru.6014 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    We also have this line:

    Taimi: I thought dragon minions couldn't be corrupted by other dragons! Is it 'cause her egg absorbed Mordremoth's magic? How—
    Caithe: Taimi, it's all right. She asked, and I accepted. This isn't corruption—it's connection.

    If it’s known knowledge that dragons can corrupt other dragon’s minions, why is Taimi asking this question and then with the question of her egg absorbing Mordremoth’s magic? Why haven’t we seen this in game other then when the Inquest are doing these strange experiments?

    The impression I have from that scene is that Aurene was able to "brand" Caithe because Caithe consented. That conscious act of consent was a deliberate step outside the Pale Tree's protection which allowed the change.

    The Soundless made a similar jump when they deliberately cut themselves off from the Pale Tree. I imagine that many of the "bad guy" Sylvari among groups like the Covington pirates are probably Soundless. But unlike Caithe, they were vulnerable while Mordremoth was alive and active, and they didn't have Aurene waiting right there to catch them. I imagine Mordremoth probably wiped out the Soundless or nearly so, and most of the few survivors probably returned to the Pale Tree's protection. That being said, with Mordremoth now dead, more Sylvari might now feel safer taking the Soundless path; in time, that could lead to the development of an entire new Sylvari culture independent of the Pale Tree. Too bad GW2 has basically forgotten the Pale Tree even exists since the end of HoT, because there's a great deal to explore about Sylvari culture post-Mordremoth.

    You're right. The Soundless were heavily damaged by Mordremoth awakening while The Nightmare Court was able to more easily resist it.

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    My issue with what the Pale Tree says in the above quote and even from Ogden is that the Pale Tree doesn’t want the world to know that she is from the Jungle Dragon. She has to give a reason on why the Sylvari can’t be corrupted by Elder Dragons as well as to why all the Sylvari player characters don’t all become Mordrem. The Pale Tree can’t say oh it’s because we are dragon minions that’s why, she has to give another reason, ah yes I protect them by the Dream, which in terms of Mordremoth is true, but not for the others.

    So now you have Lore which is now becoming a problem for game mechanics because you have to give a reason why all the Sylvari that your playing don’t turn into mindless dragon minions.

    Ok so why don’t Sylvari become Risen, because they are dragon minions. They can’t seem to corrupt each other and we still haven’t seen it happen in game either.

    How come all Sylvari don’t become Mordrem, because the Pale Tree is able to protect them and even less so because of her attack in Season 2.

    I've heard that argument before, but it falls apart with my third source, which establishes the exact same thing as what the Pale Tree said, but after the reveal about sylvari being dragon minions, while simultaneously being from an external out-of-character source thus not subject to unreliable narrator.

    Taimi can be wrong at times since she doesn't know everything, and this is a time when we have factual proof - which she wasn't around for - that her small statement is false.

    Couple things here, I looked at the third source, which I presume is just the text and not the full video. The text states that the with immense will power and protection from the Pale Tree can protect Sylvari from Mordremoth, which I obviously have to agree with, however I believe this protection does not cover the other dragons.

    The reason I said game mechanics is if there was no protection from the Pale Tree then all Sylvari including the pc would belong to Mordremoth, so Anet has to invent a way to say why you still have Sylvari with free will, hence the protection, when Mordremoth wakes up.

    It still stands the Pale tree did not want the pc knowing that she herself was a minion of Mordremoth as well as the Sylvari. She has to explain why this is so. The truth is they are dragon minions that’s why they can’t be corrupted. The third source is just confirming that the only way the Sylvari still have their senses and not be completely submit is because of this protection that the Pale Tree grants them.

    As for Subject Alpha and Kudu’s monster, these entities were made by the Inquest most likely in an artificial capacity.

    We also have this line:

    Taimi: I thought dragon minions couldn't be corrupted by other dragons! Is it 'cause her egg absorbed Mordremoth's magic? How—
    Caithe: Taimi, it's all right. She asked, and I accepted. This isn't corruption—it's connection.

    If it’s known knowledge that dragons can corrupt other dragon’s minions, why is Taimi asking this question and then with the question of her egg absorbing Mordremoth’s magic? Why haven’t we seen this in game other then when the Inquest are doing these strange experiments?

    Absorbing Mordremoth magic by the egg is show at his death. We see the energy spread along the ley lines all the way to the egg chamber.

    No, I realize this, I was just referring to the quote. If it known that Elder Dragons can corrupt each other’s minions then why is Taimi asking the question. Why haven’t we seen this in game, other then some wacky experiments from the Inquest?

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 11, 2020

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    That's a rather bold statement, Konig. Nothing is really known about the origin of the Bloodstone. Your response is as much a theory as my original post. Still, the Elder Dragons played a part in the story of the Bloodstone at least once: Zaithan's powers were used to help sunder it into five pieces, if memory serves faithfully.

    We actually know quite a bit about the creation of the original Bloodstone.

    1. The sylvari are immune to Mordremoth's corruption too. This is why Mordremoth has to use loopholes by exploiting his own connection to the Dream of Dreams. And this is why the Mordrem Guard were able to return to their old selves once separated from Mordremoth's whispers.

    On the contrary, they're resistant to Mordremoth's corruption and immune to the corruption of every other Elder Dragon.

    No, they're immune to Mordremoth's corruption too. This is why Mordrem Guard have to be converted. They're not corrupted, they're brainwashed through bombardment of whispers.

    Fun fact: the word "corrupted" is never used by ANet on the Mordrem Guard.

    And this "immunity" changed after HoT - as evident by Aurene corrupting Caithe.

    1. If Bloodstones influenced living creatures at such a huge distance (the Maguuma Bloodstone and the Pale Tree are literally the entire jungle apart), then we would see dozens of other races with similar influences. Practically everyone in western and central Central Tyria would have been influenced by the Bloodstones.

    The theory proposes that races are seeded through the original Bloodstone, or through one of it's shards, by sacrificing living beings atop it, as we see the White Mantle doing in both GW1 and GW2. Thus far, we only know that humans were sacrificed atop the Maguuma shard and that, briefly, they had contact with the Ring of Fire and Shiverpeaks shards too. Hence, although the pieces of the Bloodstone undoubtedly influenced many beings across the face of Tyria, notably humans (e.g. the Guild Wars), this theory proposes that such influence would not be enough to confer immunity to certain kinds of Elder Dragon corruption.

    Then why would it confer immunity to sylvari? You're basically saying "the immunity was caused by the bloodstone, but hey, not everyone got influenced enough despite the sylvari having literally zero contact with the bloodstone and other races got far more contact and were closer in proximity"

    It makes no sense.

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    The reason I said game mechanics is if there was no protection from the Pale Tree then all Sylvari including the pc would belong to Mordremoth, so Anet has to invent a way to say why you still have Sylvari with free will, hence the protection, when Mordremoth wakes up.

    This is a false belief. Because of Glint and her minions (Facets) and children. Glint was corrupted by Glint, then purified. The Pale Tree was, too, also "cleansed somehow". There's even an entry on it in the new Complete Art of Guild Wars book on page 158:

    "Before Mordremoth's onslaught, the world didn't know that the Pale Tree was once a sapling of the Elder Dragon. She was purified, somehow, and is remarkably benevolent. She sought to protect her young from the grasp of her maker, and so she kept the sylvari ignorant of their origin."

    There was no need to "suddenly explain" because we already had a case exactly like this in the form of Glint.

    The truth is they are dragon minions that’s why they can’t be corrupted.

    The player assumption is that they can't be corrupted because they are dragon minions. But there is ample counterevidence against this, as I noted already.

    As for Subject Alpha and Kudu’s monster, these entities were made by the Inquest most likely in an artificial capacity.

    They were made by the Inquest. By doing nothing but exposing to dragon magic. This is less than what Elder Dragons do.

    If it’s known knowledge that dragons can corrupt other dragon’s minions, why is Taimi asking this question and then with the question of her egg absorbing Mordremoth’s magic? Why haven’t we seen this in game other then when the Inquest are doing these strange experiments?

    Whoever said it's known knowledge? The Elder Dragons don't interact with each other, even through minions. Beyond lab situations which you and those like you dismiss because "lab environment" despite the Inquest doing literally nothing beyond "let's have them interact and see what happens" resulting in cross-corruption, there is no interaction between minions. So why would it be known knowledge? Taimi isn't going to be running experiments to expose people to multiple dragon corruption, and she wasn't around when Zojja stole the Inquest's data.

    Just go play CoE story and pay attention. All they do is expose their test subjects. The only change compared to actual dragon corruption is that it isn't in the wild but an interior room that happens to be a lab.

    @Jimbru.6014 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    We also have this line:

    Taimi: I thought dragon minions couldn't be corrupted by other dragons! Is it 'cause her egg absorbed Mordremoth's magic? How—
    Caithe: Taimi, it's all right. She asked, and I accepted. This isn't corruption—it's connection.

    If it’s known knowledge that dragons can corrupt other dragon’s minions, why is Taimi asking this question and then with the question of her egg absorbing Mordremoth’s magic? Why haven’t we seen this in game other then when the Inquest are doing these strange experiments?

    The impression I have from that scene is that Aurene was able to "brand" Caithe because Caithe consented. That conscious act of consent was a deliberate step outside the Pale Tree's protection which allowed the change.

    The Soundless made a similar jump when they deliberately cut themselves off from the Pale Tree. I imagine that many of the "bad guy" Sylvari among groups like the Covington pirates are probably Soundless. But unlike Caithe, they were vulnerable while Mordremoth was alive and active, and they didn't have Aurene waiting right there to catch them. I imagine Mordremoth probably wiped out the Soundless or nearly so, and most of the few survivors probably returned to the Pale Tree's protection. That being said, with Mordremoth now dead, more Sylvari might now feel safer taking the Soundless path; in time, that could lead to the development of an entire new Sylvari culture independent of the Pale Tree. Too bad GW2 has basically forgotten the Pale Tree even exists since the end of HoT, because there's a great deal to explore about Sylvari culture post-Mordremoth.

    TL;DR: This.

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  • anninke.7469anninke.7469 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Jimbru.6014 said:

    The impression I have from that scene is that Aurene was able to "brand" Caithe because Caithe consented. That conscious act of consent was a deliberate step outside the Pale Tree's protection which allowed the change.

    The Soundless made a similar jump when they deliberately cut themselves off from the Pale Tree. I imagine that many of the "bad guy" Sylvari among groups like the Covington pirates are probably Soundless. But unlike Caithe, they were vulnerable while Mordremoth was alive and active, and they didn't have Aurene waiting right there to catch them. I imagine Mordremoth probably wiped out the Soundless or nearly so, and most of the few survivors probably returned to the Pale Tree's protection. That being said, with Mordremoth now dead, more Sylvari might now feel safer taking the Soundless path; in time, that could lead to the development of an entire new Sylvari culture independent of the Pale Tree. Too bad GW2 has basically forgotten the Pale Tree even exists since the end of HoT, because there's a great deal to explore about Sylvari culture post-Mordremoth.

    TL;DR: This.

    But if the Pale Tree/the Dream of Dreams is the source of their immunity, shouldn't rejecting the Pale Tree's/Dream of Dream's protection result in the Soundless actually being corruptible (and probably by any ED) rather that being weaker to Mordy's brainwashing (which they should be MORE RESISTANT against due to their meditations and mind training, at least the succesful ones, imo)?

    And I don't think that the "bad guy" sylvari would be Soundless any more than the regular sylvari. Maybe they just don't care. After all, you don't have to necessarily plug your ears to ignore your mother's nagging. And there are some sylvari right in The Grove that are not exactly good guys (the dude who got banished for stealing something, although he's not present, only mentioned) or at least are not very nice (several NPCs you can chat with).

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  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @anninke.7469 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Jimbru.6014 said:

    The impression I have from that scene is that Aurene was able to "brand" Caithe because Caithe consented. That conscious act of consent was a deliberate step outside the Pale Tree's protection which allowed the change.

    The Soundless made a similar jump when they deliberately cut themselves off from the Pale Tree. I imagine that many of the "bad guy" Sylvari among groups like the Covington pirates are probably Soundless. But unlike Caithe, they were vulnerable while Mordremoth was alive and active, and they didn't have Aurene waiting right there to catch them. I imagine Mordremoth probably wiped out the Soundless or nearly so, and most of the few survivors probably returned to the Pale Tree's protection. That being said, with Mordremoth now dead, more Sylvari might now feel safer taking the Soundless path; in time, that could lead to the development of an entire new Sylvari culture independent of the Pale Tree. Too bad GW2 has basically forgotten the Pale Tree even exists since the end of HoT, because there's a great deal to explore about Sylvari culture post-Mordremoth.

    TL;DR: This.

    But if the Pale Tree/the Dream of Dreams is the source of their immunity, shouldn't rejecting the Pale Tree's/Dream of Dream's protection result in the Soundless actually being corruptible (and probably by any ED) rather that being weaker to Mordy's brainwashing (which they should be MORE RESISTANT against due to their meditations and mind training, at least the succesful ones, imo)?

    And I don't think that the "bad guy" sylvari would be Soundless any more than the regular sylvari. Maybe they just don't care. After all, you don't have to necessarily plug your ears to ignore your mother's nagging. And there are some sylvari right in The Grove that are not exactly good guys (the dude who got banished for stealing something, although he's not present, only mentioned) or at least are not very nice (several NPCs you can chat with).

    The only Soundless twisted by Mordremoth were Scarlet (who directly touched Mordy's mind while in Omadd's Machine), and Aerin, who was focused on due to his position on the Zephyr Sanctum. All other Mordrem Guard weren't suggested to be Soundless, but Dreamers and Courtiers. It was established that even if they meditate to separate themselves from the Dream, the Pale Tree and the Dream are still capable of influencing the Soundless - it just takes more effort. The same likely goes for Mordremoth, since his means of twisting sylvari is through the Dream's Wyld Hunt channels, just like the Pale Tree.

    That said, the Pale Tree does suggest in Season 2 that the Soundless can in fact be corrupted by other Elder Dragons - she states that they resist her protection, making them more vulnerable than they realize, and the sylvari PC says "you're talking about dragon corruption, we've been immune". We haven't seen it because the number of Soundless is very small, and they tend to live in an isolated community which is far away from any dragon-related threat but the Nightmare Court, but it is implied to be there.

    If ANet didn't avoid the sylvari plot like the plague post-HoT, and didn't rush HoT with the very poor choice of "against the clock the entire time" plot, we may even see such happening, or get more details on the topic.

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  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dustfinger.9510 said:
    Ehh, Glint has no issue with being ED spawn. I don't think the Pale Tree would or the Sylvari since they have proven themselves the whole time.

    Actually prior to the information that Glint was previously an Elder Dragon Champion she did not disclose that fact to Destiny's Edge or others.
    She intentionally hid that information from those who were not aware of it, likely fearing that mortals would turn on her if they knew.

    When Destiny's Edge first learned of her origins they actually tried to kill her, but she defeated them, spared their lives and told them the truth about her past and convinced them of her intentions to fight her former master, which she later proved beyond doubt when she died fighting Kralkatorrik.

  • If only there was some other group of Sylvari with their own Mother Tree out there somewhere that we could compare to so we could see what the real source of Sylvari resistance and/or immunity is...

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  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Dustfinger.9510 said:
    Ehh, Glint has no issue with being ED spawn. I don't think the Pale Tree would or the Sylvari since they have proven themselves the whole time.

    Actually prior to the information that Glint was previously an Elder Dragon Champion she did not disclose that fact to Destiny's Edge or others.
    She intentionally hid that information from those who were not aware of it, likely fearing that mortals would turn on her if they knew.

    When Destiny's Edge first learned of her origins they actually tried to kill her, but she defeated them, spared their lives and told them the truth about her past and convinced them of her intentions to fight her former master, which she later proved beyond doubt when she died fighting Kralkatorrik.

    Her hiding her origins is ultimately a result of a retcon to her origins. It's hard to say just from that how she felt about it, but she didn't hide it from those who needed to know. She never actively hid it from Destiny's Edge, she just didn't allow it to be common knowledge. But keep in mind that Elder Dragons themselves were not common knowledge. The Brotherhood of the Dragon and the Forgotten both knew of Glint's origins, as did the Zephyrites and, of course, the Exalted- all these groups knew well before her origins became common knowledge by 200+ years.

    It's more likely that she hid her origins because she wanted to prevent people from trying to abuse or wake the Elder Dragons. After all, with how people acted when the bloodstones were released from Abaddon's Mouth volcano, or how the cult of Abaddon persisted for a millennia, or even just how groups acted with the source of magic that were the Elder Dragons without knowing about their existence, it's clear that anyone actively knowing about the Elder Dragons' existence would have changed the playing field a lot, and Glint is a puppetmaster figure who likes manipulating events to serve her purposes (see: Flameseeker Prophecies and how she hid bits and pieces so that each party - the mursaat, Turai, Khilbron, even Meerak - would act as she wanted/needed them to to fulfill the prophecies).

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  • anninke.7469anninke.7469 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    The only Soundless twisted by Mordremoth were Scarlet (who directly touched Mordy's mind while in Omadd's Machine), and Aerin, who was focused on due to his position on the Zephyr Sanctum. All other Mordrem Guard weren't suggested to be Soundless, but Dreamers and Courtiers. It was established that even if they meditate to separate themselves from the Dream, the Pale Tree and the Dream are still capable of influencing the Soundless - it just takes more effort. The same likely goes for Mordremoth, since his means of twisting sylvari is through the Dream's Wyld Hunt channels, just like the Pale Tree.
    That said, the Pale Tree does suggest in Season 2 that the Soundless can in fact be corrupted by other Elder Dragons - she states that they resist her protection, making them more vulnerable than they realize, and the sylvari PC says "you're talking about dragon corruption, we've been immune". We haven't seen it because the number of Soundless is very small, and they tend to live in an isolated community which is far away from any dragon-related threat but the Nightmare Court, but it is implied to be there.

    Pity there wasn't at least one. After all, the Weeping Isle is not that far away from risen attacked places. Or at least it seems about the same distance as to the Hemlock Coil. Or if that would bee to soon (starter map and all), there could be a few in Bloodtide Coast or Sparkfly Fen. If Aerin could travel, why not other Soundless?

    With no seen corrupted Soundless whatsoever, it all gets a bit confusing. And if you run a sylvari PC, some dialogues with the Pale Tree seem to tell you, that Mordremoth is exactly the one she's struggling to protect her children from. (And she actually speaks about "Mordremoth's corruption" to make it even more confusing. I think she just lacks the ability to speak clearly. "Nice to meet you, I'm the Pale Tree. Pale Confusion Tree.")

    If ANet didn't avoid the sylvari plot like the plague post-HoT, and didn't rush HoT with the very poor choice of "against the clock the entire time" plot, we may even see such happening, or get more details on the topic.

    I really wish they had done something more in-depth with all the unresolved sylvari related stuff. Even if it was locked behind a raid (I can't believe I'm writing this. I hate raids with burning passion). I still do keep this tiny little sprout of hope that we might one day get to know more (looking at you, scrying pool and Matthew Medina. It's a long stare full of yearning and childlike expectation. Even Santa and all the wishing stars together don't get that kind of intensity).

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  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 13, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    That's a rather bold statement, Konig. Nothing is really known about the origin of the Bloodstone. Your response is as much a theory as my original post. Still, the Elder Dragons played a part in the story of the Bloodstone at least once: Zaithan's powers were used to help sunder it into five pieces, if memory serves faithfully.

    We actually know quite a bit about the creation of the original Bloodstone.

    I presume that the majority of that information is contained in the wiki? I think, all things considered, that what you consider "quite a bit" is what I consider to be "very little". Even if we adopt your position and say that we know "quite a bit", it's a real stretch to exclude the idea that the blood of the Elder Dragons wasn't used to forge the stone.

    1. The sylvari are immune to Mordremoth's corruption too. This is why Mordremoth has to use loopholes by exploiting his own connection to the Dream of Dreams. And this is why the Mordrem Guard were able to return to their old selves once separated from Mordremoth's whispers.

    On the contrary, they're resistant to Mordremoth's corruption and immune to the corruption of every other Elder Dragon.

    No, they're immune to Mordremoth's corruption too. This is why Mordrem Guard have to be converted. They're not corrupted, they're brainwashed through bombardment of whispers.

    Fun fact: the word "corrupted" is never used by ANet on the Mordrem Guard.

    The term "corruption" is used, though, in Anet's pre-HoT releases about the sylvari that have turned. Why should the mordrem guard be any different to your run-of-the-mill sylvari? To say that the sylvari are immune to Mordremoth's corruption just doesn't make sense, especially when dialogue between the sylvari PC and the Pale Mother includes very specific language like: "We've been immune to [Elder Dragon corruption]". The implication of such specific language being that the sylvari view themselves as somehow vulnerable to Mordremoth's corruption.

    The big question here is how we define "corruption". Is it just the ability to hear an Elder Dragon's whispers, or is it a change in biology? From the Icebrood Saga, it seems that simply hearing whispers isn't enough to corrupt and that some sort of biological change is required to confer corruption. We certainly see some drastic changes in sylvari corrupted by Mordremoth, suggesting that their biology has been altered. Faolain is a prime, and perhaps the most extreme, example.

    The other big question is how you "come back" from corruption. Some sylvari have. We know that the cleansing of dragon corruption is possible, but the biology of the cleansed doesn't appear to change (e.g. Twitchy). So there's something for the player base to ponder.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    I presume that the majority of that information is contained in the wiki? I think, all things considered, that what you consider "quite a bit" is what I consider to be "very little". Even if we adopt your position and say that we know "quite a bit", it's a real stretch to exclude the idea that the blood of the Elder Dragons wasn't used to forge the stone.

    Unless the Forgotten consider the Elder Dragons to be divine, I think we could exclude it.

    The only alternative I can think of would be that divine resources was needed to make use of Elder Dragon blood that functioned fundamentally different from the Sanguinary Blade or Dragonsblood Spear/weapons.

    The issue I see with that is that in both cases, the blood become the element of the respective Elder Dragon - ice and crystal. The Bloodstone, being a type of crystalline structure, would likely have come from one of those two. But as said, it's fundamentally different in shape, color, and capabilities.

    Furthermore, I think you're focusing far too much on the name "Bloodstone". The name comes from the fact that King Doric was sacrificed to seal the magic within - the name came about in 1 BE, not 10,000-3,000 BE when the Seers made it. If it had a name before then, we don't know it. Because of this, there's no evidence to suggest that blood in any form was used to create the Bloodstone (the lore of which is undoubtably inspired by the original mineral nicknamed bloodstone, modernly known as heliotrope which was / is believed to hold magical qualities but never had anything to do with blood besides its appearance).

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    The term "corruption" is used, though, in Anet's pre-HoT releases about the sylvari that have turned.

    Seldom used then. They tend to use the word "turned" rather than "corrupted", even if sometimes the word "corrupted" is used by ANet. For example in that PoI 18 summary, despite talking quite a bit about the Mordrem Guard, the article uses the terms "influence", "control", and "turned" - but never corrupted. Even in The Mordrem Guard article, the word "corrupt" is never used - it is used in the Point of Interest summary of the article though, though only twoce in reference to Mordremoth taking over the sylvari.

    Why should the mordrem guard be any different to your run-of-the-mill sylvari?

    The Mordrem Guard are your run-of-the-mill sylvari, so they're not different.

    To say that the sylvari are immune to Mordremoth's corruption just doesn't make sense, especially when dialogue between the sylvari PC and the Pale Mother includes very specific language like: "We've been immune to [Elder Dragon corruption]". The implication of such specific language being that the sylvari view themselves as somehow vulnerable to Mordremoth's corruption.

    The dialogue, which was still hiding their origin, was the Pale Tree suggesting that Mordremoth could corrupt the sylvari. This conversation, though telling in some regards, also unfortunately falls under unreliable narrator (as I brought up). However, throughout HoT, it is noteworthy that the only means of so-called "corrupting" sylvari is through mental bombardment, and not just exposing them to corruptive energies.

    And before you go "because they're already minions of Mordremoth!" If that were so then why can Kralkatorrik just expose Facets to corruption and corrupt said facets?

    The big question here is how we define "corruption". Is it just the ability to hear an Elder Dragon's whispers, or is it a change in biology? From the Icebrood Saga, it seems that simply hearing whispers isn't enough to corrupt and that some sort of biological change is required to confer corruption. We certainly see some drastic changes in sylvari corrupted by Mordremoth, suggesting that their biology has been altered. Faolain is a prime, and perhaps the most extreme, example.

    It's important to separate abilities from corruption - Mordremoth and Jormag being able to use telepathy is an ability, not corruption. Similar to the crystal bombardment that Kralkatorrik uses during the battle against Balthazar - they don't corrupt, they're meant to devastate. Same with the wells that Zhaitan uses in Victory or Death.

    Dragon corruption is shown as the act of exposing individuals to their unique draconic energy, which then physically transforms (though sometimes not all at once, as with Primordus and Jormag), joins minds in a type of hive mind (individual thoughts, but mentally linked), and mentally enslaves (stripping of free will) the victim. Only through the Forgotten ritual or similar magics, or the death of the Elder Dragon, does free will return - though the body remains altered by the magic.

    Aurene's branding is different only in that she doesn't strip free will. She still physically transforms, and still creates a mental link - though the Commander, unlike Caithe, was spared of the physical transformation, perhaps because the "bond" as it's referred to happened while Aurene was an egg.

    With the Mordrem Guard, though, their physical change was caused by the sylvari's innate ability to reshape their bodies based on their psychological state - as we saw with Ceara/Scarlet, Caithe, and Canach, a sylvari's appearance can change (sometimes even drastically) if they are put under mental stress. And the Mordrem Guard are put under a lot.

    The only oddities would be Faolain and the three Commanders, really. However, given that the Commanders die and are reborn from the Blighting Trees, it's evident that the bodies we witness are not their originals, and that their minds were transferred - this would be the primary if only method for Mordremoth to actually "corrupt" the sylvari - by bodyswapping them. Whether other Mordrem Guard undergo a similar process is never revealed as far as I know. It's certainly possible, but then we'd have to separate the Mordrem Guard into "first generation" (those who were converted sylvari from the Pale Tree) and "second generation" (those who were born from Blighting Trees).

    The other big question is how you "come back" from corruption. Some sylvari have. We know that the cleansing of dragon corruption is possible, but the biology of the cleansed doesn't appear to change (e.g. Twitchy). So there's something for the player base to ponder.

    The critical thing brought up time and time again about dragon corruption is that you cannot "come back" from being corruption (without aforementioned rituals or death of Elder Dragons). And this is another major telling that the Mordrem Guard aren't corrupted: In Buried Insight, we see that the Mordrem Guard can come back, if sufficiently separated from Mordremoth's bombarding whispers and not pushed back into the mindset by Canach's probing.

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  • @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Dustfinger.9510 said:
    Ehh, Glint has no issue with being ED spawn. I don't think the Pale Tree would or the Sylvari since they have proven themselves the whole time.

    Actually prior to the information that Glint was previously an Elder Dragon Champion she did not disclose that fact to Destiny's Edge or others.
    She intentionally hid that information from those who were not aware of it, likely fearing that mortals would turn on her if they knew.

    When Destiny's Edge first learned of her origins they actually tried to kill her, but she defeated them, spared their lives and told them the truth about her past and convinced them of her intentions to fight her former master, which she later proved beyond doubt when she died fighting Kralkatorrik.

    They tried to kill an unknown dragon spawn until they saw that she proved herself an ally. The Sylvari and pale Tree have the benefit of already having proved themselves allies.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 13, 2020

    @Dustfinger.9510 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Dustfinger.9510 said:
    Ehh, Glint has no issue with being ED spawn. I don't think the Pale Tree would or the Sylvari since they have proven themselves the whole time.

    Actually prior to the information that Glint was previously an Elder Dragon Champion she did not disclose that fact to Destiny's Edge or others.
    She intentionally hid that information from those who were not aware of it, likely fearing that mortals would turn on her if they knew.

    When Destiny's Edge first learned of her origins they actually tried to kill her, but she defeated them, spared their lives and told them the truth about her past and convinced them of her intentions to fight her former master, which she later proved beyond doubt when she died fighting Kralkatorrik.

    They tried to kill an unknown dragon spawn until they saw that she proved herself an ally. The Sylvari and pale Tree have the benefit of already having proved themselves allies.

    They did until Scarlet and more importantly Mordremoth came into the picture.
    Lot of people didn't trust Sylvari during HoT and even afterwards.

    Sylvari for the most part didn't know they came from Mordremoth though, only a select few did know and kept that secret from the others.
    Glint did know her origins, but despite the retcons Konig mentioned, she did still keep that information from Destiny's Edge until it became common knoweledge.
    Destiny's Edge knew Glint before learning her origins, she wasn't some unknown Dragon spawn she was an ally to them and a known and promenant being in Tyria.
    When they went to kill her they were operating under false information from Faolin that she was secretly preparing for her masters awakening.
    She beat Destiny's Edge in battle and spared their lives then told them the truth to earn their trust again.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 13, 2020

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    They did until Scarlet and more importantly Mordremoth came into the picture.
    Lot of people didn't trust Sylvari during HoT and even afterwards.

    Sylvari for the most part didn't know they came from Mordremoth though, only a select few did know and kept that secret from the others.

    TBH, people don't need to trust sylvari en masse. They need to just not attack on sight. That said, the reason why people don't trust sylvari isn't because they are Mordremoth's spawn, but because so many of them gave in and turned to Mordremoth - something that might not have happened if the Pale Tree was upfront about their origins.

    Glint did know her origins, but despite the retcons Konig mentioned, she did still keep that information from Destiny's Edge until it became common knoweledge.

    This is untrue and also ultimately irrelevant. Destiny's Edge learned it before it became common knowledge - in fact, it became common knowledge because of Destiny's Edge (they were the only ones who knew who could spread it for it to become common knowledge), which is where it's untrue. It's irrelevant because Glint was never in contact with Destiny's Edge until they came to kill her.

    The only ones she was ever in contact with for the entirety of her stay in the Crystal Desert - which is suggested to have been since 100 BE at the latest - was the Forgotten, Brotherhood of the Dragon (and maybe later Zephyrites and Exalted), and the Chosen from GW1. And except for the last group - who did learn about her origins eventually - she did not hide her origins (hence again, "ultimately irrelevant") - it was those groups who kept it a secret. It's unknown whether they came it a secret because they deemed it best, or because Glint did. That's left unclear.

    Destiny's Edge knew Glint before learning her origins, she wasn't some unknown Dragon spawn she was an ally to them and a known and promenant being in Tyria.

    They knew of Glint - well, Logan and Caithe knew of her. It's never really shown if the other four members of Destiny's Edge knew of her before the revelation by Faolain that Glint was Kralkatorrik's champion. But even Logan had never met Glint prior to the mission to kill her.

    She beat Destiny's Edge in battle and spared their lives then told them the truth to earn their trust again.

    It was more of a standstill after the first turn in a turn-based rpg combat. Destiny's Edge each let off one attack, and Glint countered, made distance, and spoke to them.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stephen.6312 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    That's a rather bold statement, Konig. Nothing is really known about the origin of the Bloodstone. Your response is as much a theory as my original post. Still, the Elder Dragons played a part in the story of the Bloodstone at least once: Zaithan's powers were used to help sunder it into five pieces, if memory serves faithfully.

    We actually know quite a bit about the creation of the original Bloodstone.

    I presume that the majority of that information is contained in the wiki? I think, all things considered, that what you consider "quite a bit" is what I consider to be "very little". Even if we adopt your position and say that we know "quite a bit", it's a real stretch to exclude the idea that the blood of the Elder Dragons wasn't used to forge the stone.

    1. The sylvari are immune to Mordremoth's corruption too. This is why Mordremoth has to use loopholes by exploiting his own connection to the Dream of Dreams. And this is why the Mordrem Guard were able to return to their old selves once separated from Mordremoth's whispers.

    On the contrary, they're resistant to Mordremoth's corruption and immune to the corruption of every other Elder Dragon.

    No, they're immune to Mordremoth's corruption too. This is why Mordrem Guard have to be converted. They're not corrupted, they're brainwashed through bombardment of whispers.

    Fun fact: the word "corrupted" is never used by ANet on the Mordrem Guard.

    The term "corruption" is used, though, in Anet's pre-HoT releases about the sylvari that have turned. Why should the mordrem guard be any different to your run-of-the-mill sylvari? To say that the sylvari are immune to Mordremoth's corruption just doesn't make sense, especially when dialogue between the sylvari PC and the Pale Mother includes very specific language like: "We've been immune to [Elder Dragon corruption]". The implication of such specific language being that the sylvari view themselves as somehow vulnerable to Mordremoth's corruption.

    The big question here is how we define "corruption". Is it just the ability to hear an Elder Dragon's whispers, or is it a change in biology? From the Icebrood Saga, it seems that simply hearing whispers isn't enough to corrupt and that some sort of biological change is required to confer corruption. We certainly see some drastic changes in sylvari corrupted by Mordremoth, suggesting that their biology has been altered. Faolain is a prime, and perhaps the most extreme, example.

    The other big question is how you "come back" from corruption. Some sylvari have. We know that the cleansing of dragon corruption is possible, but the biology of the cleansed doesn't appear to change (e.g. Twitchy). So there's something for the player base to ponder.

    I guess another thing about Mordremoth’s corruption is Trahearne. At the end of Heart of Thorns, he appears to be half changed in terms of his skin and appears to be forcibly corrupted rather then “turned”.

    Scarlet and Aerin appear to be examples of Mordremoth turning soundless Sylvari, which the Pale Tree advises, lack protection. Might be why Mordremoth has to skirt around in the Dream with the Wyld hunts in order to convert Sylvari while these two seem to just be vulnerable.