What if Jormag is the Air Dragon and not the ice dragon — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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What if Jormag is the Air Dragon and not the ice dragon

Brycar.2651Brycar.2651 Member ✭✭✭

The whispers were carried on the wind. When the Dead boss Was reanimated it was by swirls of wind. Maybe it is the cold breath that gets In the mind? What if Jorgam’s icey wind possessed and froze the sea dragon? The frozen monster is actually two dragons.

Comments

  • Intense cold creates wind though. ;)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katabatic_wind

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    If anything I would think Drakkar could potentially be a former Deep Sea Dragon champion or something. I can't remember the exact quote but it seemed like it was implying that Drakkar had some unique ability similar to the spirits that Jormag was able to tap into more than Drakkar just simply being a vessel that gained its abilities via Jormag.

    But given the location unless it was way way way back before the known dragon rises I doubt a DSD minion would be anywhere near Jormag.

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Bast.7253 said:
    If anything I would think Drakkar could potentially be a former Deep Sea Dragon champion or something. I can't remember the exact quote but it seemed like it was implying that Drakkar had some unique ability similar to the spirits that Jormag was able to tap into more than Drakkar just simply being a vessel that gained its abilities via Jormag.

    But given the location unless it was way way way back before the known dragon rises I doubt a DSD minion would be anywhere near Jormag.

    Drakkar was kinda a double champion. A champion of Jormag plus the host of Jormag's whisper/voice. I doubt it was at all related to the DSD as we know that Dragon minions are immune to the corruption of another dragon. This is why Sylvari would die instantly where humans would become Risen when facing Zhaitan/Zhaitan's champions(dragons) breath attacks.

  • Air Jormag sounds like a kind of basketball shoe & that's not a bad thang either

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 1, 2020

    @Kalavier.1097 said:
    I doubt it was at all related to the DSD as we know that Dragon minions are immune to the corruption of another dragon. This is why Sylvari would die instantly where humans would become Risen when facing Zhaitan/Zhaitan's champions(dragons) breath attacks.

    We do not know this.

    HoT promotions actually showed that sylvari "immunity" from dragon corruption came, in fact, from the Pale Tree's protection - and in Season 2, this protection is brought up as something the Soundless don't have.

    Furthermore, we have multiple examples of dragon minions being corrupted by another Elder Dragon - Subject Alpha, Kudu's Monster, Kudu eventually, Caithe, Subject Beta. Yes, four of those examples come from a lab, but this lab only exposes its subjects to dragon corruption - it does literally nothing that the Elder Dragons can't do, in fact, it does less than what the Elder Dragons can do.

    The only piece of evidence suggesting the player notion of "dragon minions can't be corrupted by another Elder Dragon" - something that began back in 2012 as theoretical argument to proclaim why sylvari must be dragon minions, and never had any proof back then - would be Taimi's line in All or Nothing when she sees Caithe get branded by Aurene. But Taimi's line doesn't say that dragon minions can't be corrupted, only that Taimi believed that was the case.

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  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    But Taimi's line doesn't say that dragon minions can't be corrupted, only that Taimi believed that was the case.

    Particularly since it's entirely possible that Taimi was purely being used as the mouthpiece for what ArenaNet could reasonably predict that a lot of the players would be thinking.

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    But Taimi's line doesn't say that dragon minions can't be corrupted, only that Taimi believed that was the case.

    Particularly since it's entirely possible that Taimi was purely being used as the mouthpiece for what ArenaNet could reasonably predict that a lot of the players would be thinking.

    Wait, wasn't the case with Caithe explained by it being technically not a corruption?

    They said something like Caithe gave Aurene permission to change her body and that this would not make it a corruption, if I remember correctly.
    On the other hand, that would imply that Jormag is not corrupting either as long as it is true that Jormag never offered change to someone who didn't want it.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    But Taimi's line doesn't say that dragon minions can't be corrupted, only that Taimi believed that was the case.

    Particularly since it's entirely possible that Taimi was purely being used as the mouthpiece for what ArenaNet could reasonably predict that a lot of the players would be thinking.

    Wait, wasn't the case with Caithe explained by it being technically not a corruption?

    They said something like Caithe gave Aurene permission to change her body and that this would not make it a corruption, if I remember correctly.
    On the other hand, that would imply that Jormag is not corrupting either as long as it is true that Jormag never offered change to someone who didn't want it.

    It was still branding, as confirmed by ANet, and permission or no it's still the same process. And yeah, since Jormag "never gives what isn't asked of it", even if what it gives is monkey paw styled, arguing that Aurene didn't corrupt means Jormag never corrupts.

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  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    But Taimi's line doesn't say that dragon minions can't be corrupted, only that Taimi believed that was the case.

    Particularly since it's entirely possible that Taimi was purely being used as the mouthpiece for what ArenaNet could reasonably predict that a lot of the players would be thinking.

    Wait, wasn't the case with Caithe explained by it being technically not a corruption?

    They said something like Caithe gave Aurene permission to change her body and that this would not make it a corruption, if I remember correctly.
    On the other hand, that would imply that Jormag is not corrupting either as long as it is true that Jormag never offered change to someone who didn't want it.

    It was still branding, as confirmed by ANet, and permission or no it's still the same process. And yeah, since Jormag "never gives what isn't asked of it", even if what it gives is monkey paw styled, arguing that Aurene didn't corrupt means Jormag never corrupts.

    Interesting, where was that confirmed? Could you possibly provide a link, I would like to look into that.

    That being said, at least as far as the information you gave me here goes, it could still mean that there is a difference, right?
    Let's say that Kralkatorrik and the case with Caithe and Aurene are both branding. But could it possibly be that one is considered corruption because it forces the individual under the control of the dragon (which most likely Jormag also does, once they persuaded you), while Aurene still leaves you with free will?

    Maybe that is the difference. Elder dragons try to force creatures to do their bidding with corruption, something that Aurene didn't do. And multiple dragons might not be able to corrupt the same individual in that manner, since just one can have control.
    If that is the difference, then maybe also the experiments of the Inquest might make sense. Basically, their experiments didn't apply multiple corruptions, but they applied multiple body altering effects like Aurene did (branding, undeading, planting, whatever these effects might get called) without the component of forcing their experiments under the will of the associated dragons.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    But Taimi's line doesn't say that dragon minions can't be corrupted, only that Taimi believed that was the case.

    Particularly since it's entirely possible that Taimi was purely being used as the mouthpiece for what ArenaNet could reasonably predict that a lot of the players would be thinking.

    Wait, wasn't the case with Caithe explained by it being technically not a corruption?

    They said something like Caithe gave Aurene permission to change her body and that this would not make it a corruption, if I remember correctly.
    On the other hand, that would imply that Jormag is not corrupting either as long as it is true that Jormag never offered change to someone who didn't want it.

    It was still branding, as confirmed by ANet, and permission or no it's still the same process. And yeah, since Jormag "never gives what isn't asked of it", even if what it gives is monkey paw styled, arguing that Aurene didn't corrupt means Jormag never corrupts.

    In regards to Caithe's branding, Aurine did possees a great chunk of Mordremoth's magic when she born thanks to the egg absorbing it after his death.
    That could be the reason why she is able to brand Sylvari.
    Likewise Aurine also shares a lot of Kralkatorriks power too and is a Crystal Dragon herself which again could explain how she can re-brand Branded creatures as well.

    I think the lab experiments are ultimately the only real enigma's.
    Do we have any information on how specifically they were created?
    My guess is they exposed creatures to multiple forms of corruption all at once which is what caused them to be multi corrupted.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2, 2020

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    But Taimi's line doesn't say that dragon minions can't be corrupted, only that Taimi believed that was the case.

    Particularly since it's entirely possible that Taimi was purely being used as the mouthpiece for what ArenaNet could reasonably predict that a lot of the players would be thinking.

    Wait, wasn't the case with Caithe explained by it being technically not a corruption?

    They said something like Caithe gave Aurene permission to change her body and that this would not make it a corruption, if I remember correctly.
    On the other hand, that would imply that Jormag is not corrupting either as long as it is true that Jormag never offered change to someone who didn't want it.

    It was still branding, as confirmed by ANet, and permission or no it's still the same process. And yeah, since Jormag "never gives what isn't asked of it", even if what it gives is monkey paw styled, arguing that Aurene didn't corrupt means Jormag never corrupts.

    In regards to Caithe's branding, Aurine did possees a great chunk of Mordremoth's magic when she born thanks to the egg absorbing it after his death.
    That could be the reason why she is able to brand Sylvari.
    Likewise Aurine also shares a lot of Kralkatorriks power too and is a Crystal Dragon herself which again could explain how she can re-brand Branded creatures as well.

    I think the lab experiments are ultimately the only real enigma's.
    Do we have any information on how specifically they were created?
    My guess is they exposed creatures to multiple forms of corruption all at once which is what caused them to be multi corrupted.

    I see a lot of trying to adjust the theory to try to explain away evidence to disprove it, when the simple explanation that explains everything is that corruption of dragon minions is possible but the Elder Dragons choose not to corrupt each other's minions because they don't gain control of the resulting multi-corrupted creature as a minion.

    Occam's Razor.

    We need no special pleading, no special exceptions, no special circumstances, and no theories about how the Inquest might have got around the supposed rule. Just one simple rule that explains why it doesn't normally happen, but also explains all the circumstances in which it has happened.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2, 2020

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    But Taimi's line doesn't say that dragon minions can't be corrupted, only that Taimi believed that was the case.

    Particularly since it's entirely possible that Taimi was purely being used as the mouthpiece for what ArenaNet could reasonably predict that a lot of the players would be thinking.

    Wait, wasn't the case with Caithe explained by it being technically not a corruption?

    They said something like Caithe gave Aurene permission to change her body and that this would not make it a corruption, if I remember correctly.
    On the other hand, that would imply that Jormag is not corrupting either as long as it is true that Jormag never offered change to someone who didn't want it.

    It was still branding, as confirmed by ANet, and permission or no it's still the same process. And yeah, since Jormag "never gives what isn't asked of it", even if what it gives is monkey paw styled, arguing that Aurene didn't corrupt means Jormag never corrupts.

    In regards to Caithe's branding, Aurine did possees a great chunk of Mordremoth's magic when she born thanks to the egg absorbing it after his death.
    That could be the reason why she is able to brand Sylvari.
    Likewise Aurine also shares a lot of Kralkatorriks power too and is a Crystal Dragon herself which again could explain how she can re-brand Branded creatures as well.

    I think the lab experiments are ultimately the only real enigma's.
    Do we have any information on how specifically they were created?
    My guess is they exposed creatures to multiple forms of corruption all at once which is what caused them to be multi corrupted.

    I see a lot of trying to adjust the theory to try to explain away evidence to disprove it, when the simple explanation that explains everything is that corruption of dragon minions is possible but the Elder Dragons choose not to corrupt each other's minions because they don't gain control of the resulting multi-corrupted creature as a minion.

    Occam's Razor.

    We need no special pleading, no special exceptions, no special circumstances, and no theories about how the Inquest might have got around the supposed rule. Just one simple rule that explains why it doesn't normally happen, but also explains all the circumstances in which it has happened.

    Well we know different dragon corruption can be combined by the dragons as seen with death branded etc
    So it makes sense that the Inquest did something similar to create their multi corrupted monsters.

    But there is no case in the game where two different kinds of Elder Dragon minions have encountered and fought one another and no situations where one Elder Dragon has corrupted anothers minions either.
    The closest thing we've seen to that is Aurine branding a Branded Devourer Broodmother in Bound By Blood.
    Aurine isn't like other Elder Dragons though, she doesn't make minions but she has been purifying the brand since her ascention.
    We know she has the ability to rebrand the brand and purify it.. but she chooses instead to destroy branded creatures as we saw with the Broodmother.
    If it were possible for one dragon to corrupt anothers minions then in theory Aurine should be able to save Branded creatures and purify them as well.
    Same for Mordrem and Risen too since they are also masterless and she even has some of their masters powers.

    Maybe she doesn't because it would mean having to become their master and enslave them again.
    That could be possible and a good reason why she doesn't.. but it's also equally possible that she simply doesn't have that ability, and no Elder Dragon does.
    After all Mordremoth, Jormag, Kralkatorrik and Primordus all gained Zhaitans powers after he fell but none of them saw fit to "recruit" and corrupt all those Risen that were left behind in Orr to rapidly grow their armies.

    We've seen Elder Dragon minions with multi corruption, Death Branded Shatterer, Drakkar, Vine Destroyers etc
    So I don't think it's as simple as mutli corrupted creatures can't be controlled by Elder Dragons.. we know they can be at least if created by said Elder Dragon.
    We also know that existing minions of Elder dragons can also be upgraded with new powers obtained from dead Elder Dragons.. (Drakkar being an obvious one and of course there is the Death Branded Shatterer too which was revived by Kralkatorrik thanks to Zhaitans magic and upgraded.)
    But that also relies on the fact that Dragons have to die first so others gain those abilities to create multi corrupted minions.
    All the inquest creatures to my knowledge were created prior to the deaths of any Elder Dragons and probably without their knowledge.. so we don't know if any of the Dragons could have taken over them had they been made aware of them.

    Again though.. many dragon minions left roaming the world without a master, all of them belonging to a dead dragon who's powers have been absorbed by the others.
    So even if Primordus tunneled his way over to Orr and corrupted all those Risen left there it would be impossible to know whether he always had the ability to do that or whether he could only do it now because he has Zhiatans magic

    To prove without doubt the theory you're supporting here we would need to see a living elder dragon corrupt another living elder dragons pure! minion.
    Standard Icebrood without any plant, crystal or death enhancements being corrupted by either Primordus or DSD.
    That would be the only way to confirm it but the chances of that happening are extremely low.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The difference with the Drath-Branded or Vine-Touched Destroyers, etc. is that there's only one Elder Dragon involved. But with Subject Alpha, Caithe, etc. there's two (or more) Elder Dragons invovled.

    Death-Touched Destroyers were created by exposing rock to corruptions created by Primordus, who had personally absorbed Zhaitan's magic.

    Same with all the Death-Branded, the Vine-Touched Destroyers, etc.

    Subject Alpha was made by exposing someone/something to corruptions created by Primordus, Jormag, Kralkatorrik, Zhaitan, and Mordremoth. Not one Elder Dragon augmented by more than one kinds of magic. Kudu's Monster is the same, but minus Mordremoth (I wonder if that's of any importance to its supposedly being controlled by the Inquest?). There is a very different situation here. Caithe fits in that situation, too, and so would any sylvari corrupted had it not been for the Dream's protection.

    The critical thing about Subject Alpha and being corrupted by five Elder Dragons' magic, is that it would be connected to five different Hive Minds - meanwhile, the Death-Branded are just connected to one: Kralkatorrik's; and the Death-Touched and Vine-Touched Destroyers are just connected to one: Primordus'. There is no hive-mind sharing with the Season 3 and later dragon minions (Caithe - and all sylvari - are a bit of an oddity with the hive minds there, given that the Dream isn't the same kind of hive mind, and Mordremoth isn't directly connected to them either but had to exploit his personal connection to the Dream, indicating they were always severed).

    Drakkar's a bit unique because unlike the others, it was corrupted by Jormag long ago, then augmented by the Lost Spirits' power later on, and gained strength from Kralkatorrik's and Mordremoth's deaths. It's hard to say that it's Death-Touched or the like, since Jormag's minions do become skeletons encased in ice over time, so Drakkar's rotten appearance caused by losing said ice isn't strictly telling.

    Though to play a semi-Devil's Advocate, we have the Unstable Abomination by Jormag. It's unstable because it has Death and Plant magic in it, or so it seems at first; without dialogue, or exposure to other minions, it's hard to say if it's like Subject Alpha or not, but maybe 3 kinds of corruption is the breaking point, regardless of how many Elder Dragon hiveminds its connected to - after all, there is no death+plant destroyers, or death+plant branded (or any plant branded besides Caithe...).

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