What does everything think about Full Counter nerfs?

Curious of fellow warriors' thoughts.

Personally the CD time nerfs are not terrible. Overall the class is still fun.

HOWEVER I think it got over-nerfed when it comes to reducing the about of condi's reflected from Revenge Counter. It should have stayed from 5, simply because of the current condi meta.

It was a good counter balance to what is pre-dominantly occupying the current meta right now. AND its currently at 10 second CD at lowest.

I also think Full Counter should be FLAT 10 second CD and not considered a Burst, this way discipline doesn't have to be mandatory as a traitline.

@Tzozef.9841 said:Curious of fellow warriors' thoughts.

Personally the CD time nerfs are not terrible. Overall the class is still fun.

HOWEVER I think it got over-nerfed when it comes to reducing the about of condi's reflected from Revenge Counter. It should have stayed from 5, simply because of the current condi meta.

It was a good counter balance to what is pre-dominantly occupying the current meta right now. AND its currently at 10 second CD at lowest.

I also think Full Counter should be FLAT 10 second CD and not considered a Burst, this way discipline doesn't have to be mandatory as a traitline.

Defence is not mandatory. Discipline is not mandatory. There are trade offs depending on how you design each build. There are multiple Spellbreaker builds that work, especially for Gold and lower. The pre-patch meta-build can't completely ignore condition damage anymore, so it'll take people some getting used to. Mix things up and you'll be surprised.

I would have made FC interruptable rather than increasing its cooldown. It would introduce the right amount of counterplay to 1v1 fights, and make it not so overpowered in 1vX fights - where most of the complaints came from. So...getting rid of the evade portion at the very least.

FC is OP to begin with. I don't mind the block, stability, evade, interrupt, and unblockable damage as long as it's not AoE.

Keep it as it was but make it a single target counter with 600 range.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:FC is OP to begin with. I don't mind the block, stability, evade, interrupt, and unblockable damage as long as it's not AoE.

Keep it as it was but make it a single target counter with 600 range.

Single target is not practical and would make it almost useless in a skirmish.

IMO the combination nerfs of the stances and the FC cooldown increase was a bit harsh, but its not terrible. With slight nerfs to scourge/mirage I think SB can be in a fairly balanced spot.

You can definitely feel the cooldown nerf. But that's okay as it was super spammable before, and honestly kind of a crutch. The whole point of it was to punish spam, but it was spam itself.

I don't agree that FC is still OP and needs to be nerfed more. People are calling for even more nerfs to FC and the elite...they take this too far and the class quickly becomes obsolete.

Warrior doesn't have a ton of skills to begin with that hit 5 targets.

@Mikeskies.1536 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:FC is OP to begin with. I don't mind the block, stability, evade, interrupt, and unblockable damage as long as it's not AoE.

Keep it as it was but make it a single target counter with 600 range.

Find a single skill that costs comparable to a single adrenaline bar that does exactly what FC can do without traits.

That's too many benefits for a very low cost AoE skill. It's absurd.

Personally, Full Counter (conceptually) is basically as overloaded as Steal is. It synergizes amazingly with traits, and honestly, it shouldn't even be a Burst Skill. The spellbreaker needs to be offensive to be rewarded, not defensive.

I'd do it like this: Full Counter no longer is an attack (it's more or less instant when triggered though). When struck, place a Spellbreaker's Mark on 3 nearby enemies and the triggering attacker (so if they are at range it still marks them) and gain Spellbreaker's Conviction.

Spellbreaker's Mark: Lasts 5 seconds. Your magic could collapse at any moment. (Does nothing on its own)Spellbreaker's Conviction: Your next Burst skill is enhanced (like a flip over skill), becoming a level 2 Burst.. Any burst skills gains an evade during their cast time, and strip boons from all targets with Spellbreaker's Mark.

This allows for counterplay, either you kite for the 5 seconds that the mark lasts, or you can interrupt the warrior's approach. None of the burst skills are mobile attacks, so even though they are evades now, you can drop a ward (if you're a guardian) to interrupt. Or you can CC the warrior before they use their burst skill.

And then adjust the traits slightly:

Guard Counter: Gain 1s Protection and Resistance per target marked by Full Counter.Slow Counter, renamed to Counter Hex: Targets marked by full counter are slowed and Disenchanted for 4 seconds.Revenge Counter: Full Counter dazes its targets. Transfer conditions to targets with Spellbreaker's Mark while you have Spellbreaker's Conviction.

Other changes around the idea:

Destroy all the boons.Enchantment Collapse: Striking Marked foes while you have Conviction applies Disenchantment and rips 1 boon in an aoe.

Control enemies positions.Magebane Tether: Full Counter applies Magebane Tether to all targets marked. Might reduced to 1 stack.

Sustain by destroying boons.Loss Aversion, renamed to Drain Enchantments: Gain adrenaline and health whenever you remove boons.

Daggers + Full Counter:Sun and Moon Style: No MH/OH requirement. Interrupting enemies applies Spellbreaker's Mark and grants you Spellbreaker's Conviction. Dagger attacks are unblockable against Marked Targets.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Mikeskies.1536 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:FC is OP to begin with. I don't mind the block, stability, evade, interrupt, and unblockable damage as long as it's not AoE.

Keep it as it was but make it a single target counter with 600 range.

I'm not saying it's not strong. I think it could use a radius reduction. Full Counter would just not be useable if it was not a PBAOE. When fighting more than 1 target, it would be almost impossible to time it appropriately so that it does what you want.

@Mikeskies.1536 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Mikeskies.1536 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:FC is OP to begin with. I don't mind the block, stability, evade, interrupt, and unblockable damage as long as it's not AoE.

Keep it as it was but make it a single target counter with 600 range.

Well, we'll just have to disagree then.

In my opinion, the damage is too much for an instant AoE with zero risk that costs a single adrenaline bar -- zero risk because of daze. This damage output is more appropriate for a single target with a shorter cooldown. I would favor a 5s cooldown for a single target counter up to 600 range. SB can still counter multiple targets one at a time, but it will prevent it from countering and shutting down targets that didn't attack the warrior or were not attacking.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Mikeskies.1536 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Mikeskies.1536 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:FC is OP to begin with. I don't mind the block, stability, evade, interrupt, and unblockable damage as long as it's not AoE.

Keep it as it was but make it a single target counter with 600 range.

Full Counter does not do a lot of damage. It crits for 4k at most. Arcing Slice can crit over 10k, is AOE, and is on 6.75s CD, which can be reset by Full Counter. The reason why it's not broken? It only has as 150 unit range.

You wanna know what's broken in this game? The amount of evades/invisible/blocks/blinds/blinks/teleports that mesmers, and thieves have. Seriously I can't land a hit on them they teleport in dump their condi bomb then teleport away meanwhile I'm just chasing after them like a zombie and their conditions are ticking away on me. Speaking of condition damage the fact that there's very little "ramp up" time that anet says condition based builds are supposed to have, wheres the ramp up when you get a first tick for 6k+ from a burn guard or necros that even after the bug fixes I still can't get into mele damage with without melting? And don't tell me to use ranged weapons because I'd probably have better luck asking them to kindly stop hitting me. There's something seriously wrong when our ranged "condition" damage weapon does more damage on a power based build than our power weapon.

FC should not be nerfed, at all, in pve at least. Perhaps in the other modes, but then the skills need to be split between modes. If FC gets nerfed in pve, it would make it worthless.

@"Red Haired Savage.5430" said:You wanna know what's broken in this game? The amount of evades/invisible/blocks/blinds/blinks/teleports that mesmers, and thieves have. Seriously I can't land a hit on them they teleport in dump their condi bomb then teleport away meanwhile I'm just chasing after them like a zombie and their conditions are ticking away on me. Speaking of condition damage the fact that there's very little "ramp up" time that anet says condition based builds are supposed to have, wheres the ramp up when you get a first tick for 6k+ from a burn guard or necros that even after the bug fixes I still can't get into mele damage with without melting? And don't tell me to use ranged weapons because I'd probably have better luck asking them to kindly stop hitting me. There's something seriously wrong when our ranged "condition" damage weapon does more damage on a power based build than our power weapon.

This.

The buffs to axe are nice indeed (a very small step in the right direction), but also a mindtrick by Anet - SB/FC/dagger builds are atill way ahead when it comes to pvp.

If they'd have nerfed Scourges, Firebrands and Mirages as well, then I'd totally be fine with the nerfs, but that didn't happen. I haven't expected anything better from Anet though, Warrior was not consisently part of the meta in PvP since they screwed up the game balance with HoT and was basically a walking ultimate in WvW since the Stability nerf since early 2015.

Full counter should have 60 sec CD with a reduction of 2 secs for every boon stripped.

@SteepledHat.1345 said:Full counter should have 60 sec CD with a reduction of 2 secs for every boon stripped.

gr8 b8 m8. Top kek.

@huntroll.1489 said:If they'd have nerfed Scourges, Firebrands and Mirages as well, then I'd totally be fine with the nerfs, but that didn't happen. I haven't expected anything better from Anet though, Warrior was not consisently part of the meta in PvP since they screwed up the game balance with HoT and was basically a walking ultimate in WvW since the Stability nerf since early 2015.

There are definitely some parts of Mirage that need to be toned down. Elusive mind is one of the biggest issues right now, its much, much too powerful. Ambush attacks with IH can stack insane amounts of conditions very quickly, if they land. I'm curious though as to what else you think needs to be toned down, specifically.

I think it was a tiny nerf to full counter.I also think after the nerf SB went from top 3 to middle of the pack.If SB was as OP as the hysteria suggested, why did a tiny nerf to full counter push us off the hill?

The nerfs were needed but end up looking a little harsh as they also hit stances. Still, could be worse if you look what they did in the past. We could talk about other classes in the need of nerfs but that is a different story.

I like it, pretty balanced IMO, probably the most balanced in the game next to Holosmith.SB can contend and win against all classes if played correctly...and with the nerfs to stances it makes the class a lot more skill based because you rely less on passive stances and more on active utilities such as Break Enchantments and Featherfoot Grace. Also... regardless of what people say, using Full Counter effectively, both offensively and defensively is a big part about being a good Spellbreaker. Especially in 1v1s.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:FC is OP to begin with. I don't mind the block, stability, evade, interrupt, and unblockable damage as long as it's not AoE.

Keep it as it was but make it a single target counter with 600 range.

I would agree if we didn’t get the adrenaline bar nerf and the stance nerfs and the nerf to FC. I think FC is in a good place. It’s not that hard to counter in a 1v1 situation, and finds better use in 1vX situations. However, it’s not a skill that carries a bad SB, and actually takes a bit skill to maximize its effects now that it has a longer CD.

ye nothing like copying 5 conditions IN AN AOE for pressing 1 button. Epitome of balance and smart play.