Reminder: Firebrand still pretty broken in PvP

Spellbreaker got nerfed to an appropriate place in the last balance patch (competitive if played well, can't faceroll any more).

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Scourge is still OP in PvP due to its large AoEs and cover condis, I hope that gets addressed in the near future. Playing one is too easy and too rewarding.

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But firebrand? ArenaNet completely missed the bar on this one. Because its damage wasn't as bad as the spellbreaker, and the scourge is still OP due to cover condis and boon strips, FB has really flown under the radar. But the truth is, they can output a ton of healing, condi cleanses, a ton of boons (including stability), and a hefty chunk of damage on top of it. It's not going to spike you like a thief or a holosmith, but it hurts pretty badly if you aren't a tank. Fighting 1v1 in PvP against them, if you aren't a scourge or spellbreaker, is an absolute nightmare. You can barely do anything against the constant boon spam.

Please investigate this ArenaNet. I'm not asking for Firebrand to be obliterated, I just ask for it to be toned down so it isn't 2/3 of the holy trinity. It was tough when Tempest tank was the meta, but you could force them off a point in 1v1 long enough to decap.

Basically the way the meta works is this:

You need a scourge to kill a firebrand, and you need a firebrand to keep you alive against a scourge. Yay for self-perpetuating metas!

They nerfed entirely the wrong things on Firebrand this past balance patch. They cut off about 50% of FB's quickness up time (generally more offensive builds/roaming builds in wvw) which did nothing to bunker FB (since they tend not to run the quickness on aegis/stab trait). If anything, bunker FB got buffed due to the mantra range increases which is more support for allies.

I agree, FB bunker needs some healing nerfs to ToR. It's as powerful as two or three healing skills put together given 1k+ healing power. As for nerfing the condi cleanse? I'd say no, not to self. FB's condi cleanse is linked to cast times and yes, they can wait out CCs to cast these cleanses but that's the whole point of ToR: While they're in ToR, don't condi burst them. As for the cleansing delivered to allies, yes this should be nerfed but the big question is how, since self and ally cleanse in ToR are coupled at the moment.

Ooo, you aren't supposed to fight 1v1 with Firebrand, its like complaining you can't 1v1 skilled Monk while not running counter build. Keep in mind that Fireband has no damage himself, nor mobility. He won't kill you, hes no threat on his own, and since you don't have to fight him, keep in mind hes pretty stationary so you can outrotate him.

Obviously Quaggan partialy agrees, if Scrouge, Mirage and Holosmith get some nerfs, Fireband should too. However, Quaggan would like to see some buffs for other supporters, e.g. Ventari Revenant so they could be viable. Imho meta with Healer supporter is much more interesting than meta without them, at last for Quaggan, hes enjoying GW1 kind of PvP where you're supposed to cooperate with team.

Thats the point, bunker builds arent supposed to be killed 1v1 as long as the damage is low, which firebrand has, therefore its balanced

@Coolguy.8702 said:Thats the point, bunker builds arent supposed to be killed 1v1 as long as the damage is low, which firebrand has, therefore its balanced

It's beyond a simple bunker/tank. It's a healer and boon spammer too.

I'm ok with any class or spec being part of the holy trinity. Tank, DPS, or healer. The problem is when a class or spec occupies more than one space, and does both (or all three) very well. Currently FB is occupying tank and healer and decent DPS if they also use condis.

@Morwath.9817 said:Ooo, you aren't supposed to fight 1v1 with Firebrand, its like complaining you can't 1v1 skilled Monk while not running counter build. Keep in mind that Fireband has no damage himself, nor mobility. He won't kill you, hes no threat on his own, and since you don't have to fight him, keep in mind hes pretty stationary so you can outrotate him.

Actually, condi firebrands can deal some pretty nice damage too if you aren't cleansing. I've seen stacks of 10 burning when I wasn't able to cleanse -- that really hurts when you're out of cleanses or you get stuck in Elixir S when you were trying to cleanse.

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Coolguy.8702 said:Thats the point, bunker builds arent supposed to be killed 1v1 as long as the damage is low, which firebrand has, therefore its balanced

@Morwath.9817 said:Ooo, you aren't supposed to fight 1v1 with Firebrand, its like complaining you can't 1v1 skilled Monk while not running counter build. Keep in mind that Fireband has no damage himself, nor mobility. He won't kill you, hes no threat on his own, and since you don't have to fight him, keep in mind hes pretty stationary so you can outrotate him.

Not really, condi firebrands dont have nearly as much healing and boons as the bunker build does. And the meta firebrand build is really weak to power damage, tho if you play a condi class like mirage (which you probably do) you'll never kill one 1v1 cause of its anti condi design

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Coolguy.8702 said:Thats the point, bunker builds arent supposed to be killed 1v1 as long as the damage is low, which firebrand has, therefore its balanced

@Morwath.9817 said:Ooo, you aren't supposed to fight 1v1 with Firebrand, its like complaining you can't 1v1 skilled Monk while not running counter build. Keep in mind that Fireband has no damage himself, nor mobility. He won't kill you, hes no threat on his own, and since you don't have to fight him, keep in mind hes pretty stationary so you can outrotate him.

What?Maybe Quaggan isn't smart, but when Quaggan goes F1, he can't heal, or boon spam... Could explain this for Quaggan (?), Quaggan is only Quaggan so he may not get it...

Come on, Firebrand is probably the only actually balanced profession on this shit...its just a bunker build...zero damage, zero mobility, allmost zero cc...and its easily killed by any competent player using a power build, remove its healing power and you might as well delete this spec, since its power variation(its theres is even a pwer build that uses Firebrand?) and condi ones are really weak. Its only insane strong against condi builds, but most of the players are using cancer Scourge anyway, which hard counter Firebrand(and pretty much all other builds too lol)

@Felipe.1807 said:Come on, Firebrand is probably the only actually balanced profession on this kitten...its just a bunker build...zero damage, zero mobility, allmost zero cc...and its easily killed by any competent player using a power build, remove its healing power and you might as well delete this spec, since its power variation(its theres is even a pwer build that uses Firebrand?) and condi ones are really weak. Its only insane strong against condi builds, but most of the players are using cancer Scourge anyway, which hard counter Firebrand(and pretty much all other builds too lol)

Firebrand personal survivability is in a good spot, their allied boon & healing support is what people are talking about taking down a notch.

Firebrand support is way too strong. It is the sole reason why auramancer went from an auto pick in meta comps to almost never taken because firebrand is so much better in almost every way.

@ArthurDent.9538 said:Firebrand support is way too strong. It is the sole reason why auramancer went from an auto pick in meta comps to almost never taken because firebrand is so much better in almost every way.

yeah it has nothing to do with scourges having quadruple the amount of condis as the next best reaper/core build

@ArthurDent.9538 said:Firebrand support is way too strong. It is the sole reason why auramancer went from an auto pick in meta comps to almost never taken because firebrand is so much better in almost every way.

Yep. Some parity between the two would be cool. The existence of condi-dps scourge just ensures every team wants a Firebrand to give it stability, and every enemy team needs a Firebrand to clear their team from it's herpes.

On the other hand, a Tempest support's Shocking Aura will be futile against a team with Firebrand Stability as well. The Tempest's Scourge will get rag dolled. The Tempest's team will have inferior condition removal. Firebrand is completely oppressive to Tempest existing in PvP. If Scourges were less of the focus in 5v5 comps, that would also lessen the necessity to run a Firebrand.

My pipe dream is that Scourge gets forced into a blood utility/secondary support/ side node build like Druid/Scrapper was in HoT. That means it won't need stability spam from Firebrand, and there won't be as much oppressive condition spam that would absolutely require a Firebrand. This is on top of a shave to Firebrand allied Support, of course.

@Chaith.8256 said:

@Felipe.1807 said:Come on, Firebrand is probably the only actually balanced profession on this kitten...its just a bunker build...zero damage, zero mobility, allmost zero cc...and its easily killed by any competent player using a power build, remove its healing power and you might as well delete this spec, since its power variation(its theres is even a pwer build that uses Firebrand?) and condi ones are really weak. Its only insane strong against condi builds, but most of the players are using cancer Scourge anyway, which hard counter Firebrand(and pretty much all other builds too lol)

I understand that, but thats the only thing that a Firebrand can bring to a team...he can even decap points like old Ventari rev could and theres no way that you will be able win a fight against someone, so might as well do /sleep and wait for help. We talking here about just nerfing his healing and boon support without any compensation?

I think when ppl are referring to team healing and condi cleanse specifically for allies the moves that are the main offenders are Mantra of lore and f2 skills 2 and 5 along with the trait legendary lore for f3.

First off https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mantra_of_Lore is a very strong self and team condi clear it clears 2 condis on 5 allies in a 180 radius and a 450 frontal cone with 3 charges, while ppl may say they only use 2 of the charges the option is there to use 3 if needed for a total of 6 condis cleansed for themselves and allies.

Then you have the f2 tome with skill 2 and skill 5, https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chapter_2:_Radiant_Recovery is another huge part in FBs arsenal of friendly condi cleansing and it's on a very low cd then you have possibly the main offender in terms of both healing and condi conversion being https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Epilogue:_Eternal_Oasis that's 5 condis on 5 allies being converted and everyone healing outgoing and incoming being increased by 33% not just the firebrands and its also on a low cd especially when lore master is taken.

Then you have legendary lore for f3 which effectively turns every single f3 skill into a prot spam ability so if your team doesn't have decent boon removal or consistent high amounts of might damage is going to be drastically reduced.

I think those are the skills that most ppl are annoyed with when it comes to their condi clearing and general support on top of what base guardian already has access to. Firebrand support is very strong and the clear choice over tempest atm my only fear is that it will prob get the kitten nerfed out of it after looking at what was done to warrior and they might just end up nerfing base guardian traits which in turn will affect other builds that aren't even FB.

Firebrand depends on a good team, bad team --> firebrand is pretty uselessIt might have high support but it has 0 damage, might have boons (tons) but has little CCOnly thing I can agree on is that the F skills need a bit of a rework, increase the cost of some the abilities for example (from 1 to 2 charges)

When looking at FB´s tome abilites it´s clear on the first sight that this is overtuned support....I have an idea, not shure if it might work as balacing FB. FB gets lots of skills with tomes. So what if for focusing on lore, they loose weapon swap.... Could be easy to do but i think such a step won´t be dared ^^.

@Wolfric.9380 said:When looking at FB´s tome abilites it´s clear on the first sight that this is overtuned support....I have an idea, not shure if it might work as balacing FB. FB gets lots of skills with tomes. So what if for focusing on lore, they loose weapon swap.... Could be easy to do but i think such a step won´t be dared ^^.

lol

@Wolfric.9380 said:When looking at FB´s tome abilites it´s clear on the first sight that this is overtuned support....I have an idea, not shure if it might work as balacing FB. FB gets lots of skills with tomes. So what if for focusing on lore, they loose weapon swap.... Could be easy to do but i think such a step won´t be dared ^^.

Cool, and as a trade-off, Guardians' base health can get buffed to match that of warrior's, that sounds good

@Chaith.8256 said:

@ArthurDent.9538 said:Firebrand support is way too strong. It is the sole reason why auramancer went from an auto pick in meta comps to almost never taken because firebrand is so much better in almost every way.

Quaggan agrees. Perfect situation for Quaggan would be, where we could see two different Supporters in each team. Each would have different role, e.g. close supporter would be more 1v1 oriented like Scrapper, Druid, while mid supporter would be more babysiting oriented like Firebrand, Ventari Revenant or Tempest.

Quaggan believes babysitting supporters should be extremly strong in supporting others, yet they should melt under pressure [with two damage dealers on it].

Edit: Quaggan thinks it would be nice to see Shoutbow viable once again...

Me thinks Tempest and FB should fill different niches.

Tempest can be more focused on melee/projectile hate with aura spam while FB can focus more on condi hate with cleanses and heals.

GW1 GvG comps had their monks make choices, either run your prot monk as RC to clease condis vs what you think might be condi heavy teams or divert hexes vs hexway.

are we just shifting blame from 1 class to another? i heard this about ele before... pld nerf all class i have issues with.

@Lord Hammer Hand.4815 said:are we just shifting blame from 1 class to another? i heard this about ele before... pld nerf all class i have issues with.

Blame a class? Foooooo, we don't blame anyone, but a power creep, which PoF introduced. Scrouge, Mirage, Holosmith and Firebrand are all too good in what they are doing, which means they are completly overshadowing other professions and possible builds, which could fill same roles as they do.

@Vagrant.7206 said:But the truth is, they can output a ton of healing, condi cleanses, a ton of boons (including stability), and a hefty chunk of damage on top of it. It's not going to spike you >like a thief or a holosmith, but it hurts pretty badly if you aren't a tank. Fighting 1v1 in PvP against them, if you aren't a scourge or spellbreaker, is an absolute nightmare. >You can barely do anything against the constant boon spam.

How is this a bad thing I don't understand? The majority of players play necro, holosmith, ranger, and thief in PvP, the rest are guards, revenant, ele, and warrior, of which from those guardians only a handful are firebrand in ranked. You got nothing to worry about my guy. Tell you what, make a knockback engi and your guardian problems will be gone I promise. It's really the weakness to firebrand.

actually having a support firebrand in the teams actually made up for some really cool, long lasting fights. There are bigger problems at the moment then the support firebrand. Ps: focus on it and it dies. As I said before the F skills should be tuned though maybe use 1 put all on cooldown.