[Discussion]Revamp (not update) or limit Dungeons, because they deter new players. - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

[Discussion]Revamp (not update) or limit Dungeons, because they deter new players.

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Comments

  • @Haishao.6851 said:

    @serialkicker.5274 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @serialkicker.5274 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    "Skipping... It's maybe THE worst gameplay in Guild Wars 2. " And theres goes any thumbs up you may had from me up until that point. And any point afterwards for that matter...

    So, stealth and run to the final chest is gameplay for you? You heard that Anet? Just make a long corridor, fill them with mobs and put chest at the end. People want to run, Anet! No need to waste your money and time for anything meaningful.

    Skipping can be challenge itself.

    Sorry, but this is the worst joke I've heard this week.

    And yet, there are tons of people unable to do it.

    Because its a unnatural, unintended way to play the game. Yes there are parts of the dungeons like the p1 tunnel that are intended for it and I have no issue with that.
    But when the dungeon event you are reading tell you to kill a boss, you scratch your head while the rest of the group are on their way to stuck Lupicus inside a wall.

  • Kapax.3801Kapax.3801 Member ✭✭✭

    They did not touch the dungeons in the last 5 years and they will not touch it in the future, we had 2 expansions and 0 dungeons, it is obvious that they will not work anymore, the replacement of the dungeons are the fractals.

  • @Kapax.3801 said:
    They did not touch the dungeons in the last 5 years and they will not touch it in the future, we had 2 expansions and 0 dungeons, it is obvious that they will not work anymore, the replacement of the dungeons are the fractals.

    Great, thats what I want too. The thing is that the current dungeons hurt the fractals because players are introduced to bad dungeons at an very early stage and assume that fractals are the same, which I did and after a whole 3 years knowing of fractals existing I tried it out only to discover how wrong I were.

    The current dungeons bring out a lot of toxicity in people which will also have people avoid 5man instanced content.

  • Zaklex.6308Zaklex.6308 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I saw all the dungeons before they went live, and that was the last time I stepped inside them besides Arah, and that was only once. There's absolutely no need to revamp the dungeons nor should the current state be giving new players a bad introduction because new players shouldn't even be doing anything with them, personal story or no, there is not one single reason a new player should have to step inside of the current original dungeons, they can bypass them and go straight to fractals...therefore not hurting fractals. Simpler solution is to steer the new players to fractals and away from the dungeons since they're basically an orphaned part of GW2.

    Yes...no...maybe...what do you want, can't you see I'm busy saving the world...AGAIN!

  • dontlook.1823dontlook.1823 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 23, 2017

    @Haishao.6851 said:
    Anet once removed a dungeon path and made it into a longer fractal. It became one of the least popular dungeon path in the game and they disbanded the dungeon team as a result.

    I think the biggest mistake they did with this is not making it rewarding enough. The mechanics are great. The encounters are challenging. But it just was not up to par in terms of reward with the exception of chest that gave horrible loot. Not to mention, the player base was infuriated with RNG at that time. Some people wouldn't even loot from dungeon chests. The Aetherblade TA path is really well-built, but the reward just wasn't there.

    More, more. More is always better. Chakata

  • dontlook.1823dontlook.1823 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 23, 2017

    Copied my post from the Improve dungeon thread
    I would like to see more small group instanced content. Dungeons being the top pick for me. They could make lessor Legendary Insights that can be combined into one Legendary insights as well to help ease the grind of legendary armor.. And maybe do something about those provisioner's tokens. Its such a pointless gold sink and very inconvenient. Only getting these materials from raids/wvw/pvp is really mind-boggling. Some people don't like competitive play and there are some that don't like large group encounters.

    I further don't think veteran players are making any sort of excuses saying they are outdated. They are and there is no getting around it. It's not even a QoL issue at this point. I'm losing a lot of friends that want to get back into the game but are fronted with this huge grind gate to get competitive or even viable gear. I have been playing this game for five years. There is very little reason to return to dungeons. Five gold from completing eight unique dungeons isn't cutting the cheese. After several bug fixes, a reward system rework, and access to higher tier gear/materials, dungeons would be sound content to engage in. Further, I don't think Arenanet would lose out economically, in fact I'm sure beyond an utterable doubt they won't and will actually benefit. Small group instanced content is very popular among MMORPGs. I am even going to go as far as saying small group encounters is one of the best ways to hone your profession and play-style as your not bogged down with specific requirements to fill a specific roll.

    Fractals is by far not the best option because there is so much variability with the mistlock instability and agony mechanic. Give people a chance to learn their attack chain without having to worry about players standing too close to them. Give players a chance to see how much damage they are contributing without there being 5-7 other people your competing with for DPS. The list of examples goes on and on. Fractals of the Mist is great stuff and I thoroughly enjoy them, but with all honesty its not how you want beginning players to start out. Its very much end-game content. I would argue even further that its for players seeking a little bit of an extra challenge. But by no means should it be the preferred game mode for players. Raids are good too, but as I stated it is a large group encounter. Its a great addition but least we forget small group encounters that don't have all these strong chaotic instabilities procing. Content like this shouldn't be ignored. Its really a serious matter IMHO. Going forward I sure hope they consider making changes. I have some confidence they will because PvP when it first came out was very unrewarding. The PvP team had no intentions of changing this until the community brought this to their attention. Now, players have a completely overhauled PvP system.

    So I'd like to make it clear for those who don't have anything useful to add, it doesn't really help the cause. I'm looking out for the community as a whole.

    More, more. More is always better. Chakata

  • dontlook.1823dontlook.1823 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 23, 2017

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Lipzipper.3160 said:
    I know I know, you've heard it before.

    "Update dungeons ANET kitten, kitten¤"#% ! etc..

    No!

    Don't update dungeons, revamp them.

    Tomato tomaato.

    I get it, you want to disarm people who are about to rush in and scream and not take the topic seriously, stating something like this does none of that. This is basic presentation stuff, if you are aware that people have heard it before, don't make them hear it again. The fact that you rephrase the term update to revamp shows you know how a thesaurus works, it hardly creates the groundbreaking difference in thematic approach which would be needed.

    @Lipzipper.3160 said:

    • I want dungeons to be valid and for them to have a reason to exist in the game for players who have unlocked all skins.

    You have not yet shown that dungeons are not valid. As far as I can tell they are good gold per hour, provide an abundance of unique skins as well as end game runes and sigils (rune of nightmare for some condi builds as an example). I'd call that pretty valid. What you wanted to say was:"You want dungeons to get run by the community as often as they got used to run in the past."

    @Lipzipper.3160 said:

    • I want rng ADDED "note that", to the dungeons by allowing dungeon gear to drop from bosses ALONGSIDE the currency and vendors. (Low drop % obviously.)

    More rng, I'm sure people will get right on that idea of supporting this. Wasn't one of your approaches dungeons were supposed to provide incentive for people with all the skins? What you should have said is, you want increased dungeons rewards to make the content more enticing. As is, not needed, dungeons are rewarding enough.

    @Lipzipper.3160 said:

    • I do NOT suggest new dungeons to be added. (the 8 dungeons from vanilla is enough as pillar content.)

    Great, because they won't. This also divides the audience which you are intending to reach even further. You are now down to people who do not feel new dungeons are needed, yet feel the need that old dungeons require a complete revamp. That's going very niche imo.

    I'm going to address the rest of your points simply by saying:

    Yes, 5+ year old content which has no work seen on it will feel dated and not be up to par with current quality of the game.

    Yes, dungeons could get a complete revamp/rework to bring them up to speed.

    No, this is not so easy and would require massive developer hours as well as new design and implementation of rewards and a reward structure.

    Yes, new players are left out to dry as far as dungeons are concerned. If this is to big an issue, make dungeon story lines all level 80. It's not as though a big part of the player base runs them at sub 80 anyway.

    Any type of work done on dungeons is competing with work which could be done on other parts of the game. As such, the cost-benefit analysis disfavors change to dungeons just as it disfavors a redesign of Living World Season 1 (something a lot of players would love to see reintroduced into the game). So it won't happen.

    This post is unnecessarily rude. I'm going to try not to start an argument because this really shouldn't be one. Dungeons aren't rewarding at all. Fractals completely knocks them outta the ball park. I shouldn't even have to provide an example.

    Also, a reward system would take some time but not as much as proposed. The PvP team did an excellent job completely changing the reward system over the course of time. I don't have a time line. But I can assure you it did not take ANet a massive amount of time to respond to their player base that was really unsatisfied with the way PvP was structured.
    The player base is very clearly expressing they want to see updated dungeon content. It was brought up with both expansion releases. Also, however old those codes may be Anet did make changes here and there to dungeons. But they were very much focused on fractals. I've been into them since they came out and I can say I want more content to hammer down. I like the play mode of Dungeons it is just so under-rewarding and that is all.

    More, more. More is always better. Chakata

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @dontlook.1823 said:
    Copied my post from the Improve dungeon thread
    I would like to see more small group instanced content. Dungeons being the top pick for me. They could make lessor Legendary Insights that can be combined into one Legendary insight as well to help ease the grind of legendary armor.. And maybe do something about those provisioner's tokens. Its such a pointless gold sink and very inconvenient. Only getting these materials from raids/wvw/pvp is really mind-boggling. Some people don't like competitive play and there are some that don't like large group encounters.

    Won't happen. Stop hoping for easier ways of acquiring legendary pve armor. That ship sank (it was never even afloat) the moment arenanet added spvp and wvw legendary armor. If you can't or don't want to put in the raid effort, you have options in other game modes which literally only cost time and 0 skill.

    @dontlook.1823 said:

    I further don't think veteran players are making any sort of excuses saying they are outdated. They are and there is no getting around it. It's not even a QoL issue at this point. I'm losing a lot of friends that want to get back into the game but are fronted with this huge grind gate to get competitive or even viable gear. I have been playing this game for five years. There is very little reason to return to dungeons. Five gold from completing eight unique dungeons isn't cutting the cheese.

    First off, full exotic armor and exotic weapons (or even ascended weapons thanks to certain quest lines and collections) and ascended trinkets (from Living World Episodes) is NOT a huge grind. Full ascended armor is not needed for raids.

    Let's assume you want to buy an entire set of exotic gear from the trading post, that will cost you around 100 gold with high end runes and sigils. That's around 5 hours of Silverwastes Farming at medium level, 2.5 hours at max gold per hour (which is around 40g). That's for 100g, most setups and gear will cost you a fraction of that.

    Second, it's not 5 gold, here the math from another thread:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    If only one could convert tokens to gold, oh wait, one can. Strait from gw2efficiency:

    For the sub 60 dungeons where you can't get direct ecto out, it's 30 copper per token. (that's instant conversion with instant sell)
    For the dungeons above 60 which allow for direct ecto conversion, it's 65 copper per token. (that's instant conversion to ecto with instant sell)
    That's with current prices of ectos being bottomed out. That's without any fancy crafting or such.

    Now consider that you get an extra 160 tokens from dungeon paths alone AND 150 dungeon tokens free to chose from any dungeon after 8 paths and you end up with(let's assume an even split between sub and above 60 dungeons even though you can run 6 above 60 dungeons easy):
    80 x .3 = 24s
    80 x .65 = 52s
    150 x .65= 97.5s
    additionally to the 5g you get for 8 paths. That's 6.73 gold per 8 paths at absolute bottomed out ecto prices and no fancy crafting whatsoever.

    Dungeon rewards were reduced by between 70s and 2g depending on which path length you did. Suffice to say, the fast and easy paths were reduced from 1g5s to 35s.

    Let's be generous and assume a total loss of 1g per path which totals 8g for 8 paths of less liquid gold (it's actually less for fast paths but hey, who's counting).

    You are now essentially short 1.27g of dungeon gold under following assumptions:

    • ecto prices stay bottomed out (unlikely but might be the case. It's more realistic to assume that they will climb back to mid 30s)
    • current builds outperform old builds by a factor of 3-4 which makes the total time required to finish them substantially less
    • you don't actually require dungeon tokens in any way, otherwise the new system is far more favorable
    • you don't run multiple above 60 paths
    • you instant sell your ecto and token conversion, which is unrealistic since buy orders fill up instantly (especially for ecto)
    • we assume every dungeon path lost 1g of liquid gold reward (which they did not, the fast ones lost less)

    My delusions seem quite sufficiently backed up by numbers. What about yours? That's the problem with parroting forum (or subjective) nonsense without actually doing the math.

    EDIT: and yes, dungeon rewards have fallen off in value compared to other game content (of which there is multiple good farms now and dungeons are not the best farm around), go read what I wrote in my first posts which is exactly this. They did not reduce in value compared to their old rewards.

    Dungeon rewards are fine as is for the type of content and difficulty they have/are.

    @dontlook.1823 said:

    Fractals is by far not the best option because there is so much variability with the mistlock instability and agony mechanic.

    Which sets in after fractal level 20 by which time a new player will have experienced every fractal with its mechanics and setup.

    @dontlook.1823 said:
    Give people a chance to learn their attack chain without having to worry about players standing too close to them. Give players a chance to see how much damage they are contributing without there being 5-7 other people your competing with for DPS.

    Fractals are 5 man content, not 7. If you want to practice your rotation and class, go to a champion in the open world and practice away, or enter the raid training area and practice on the target golem. There is no reason to make sub 5 man dungeon content at this point in time. If you are actually interested in you personal dps outside of a golem benchmark, put on arcdps.

    @dontlook.1823 said:
    Fractals of the Mist is great stuff and I thoroughly enjoy them, but with all honesty its not how you want beginning players to start out. Its very much end-game content.

    Sub level 20 fractals of the mists are so kitten easy that all people have to do is to move away from their auto-attack-afk-press-1 open world mentality and actually spend some time understanding their class. No amount of simpler content will bridge this step since low level fractals are already beyond easy.

  • dontlook.1823dontlook.1823 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 23, 2017

    Jeez, where do I start. Cause this is just going to become an I am right you are wrong. I have invested my time in Legendary armor. And Weapons. And Trinkets. and Back pieces. That is exactly why I am talking about them. Further, I'm merely throwing out ideas for players to get Legendary Armor components that don't require competitive _play or _large group encounter play. Just to be clear. But the big issue here is not even that. It is a grind to get Ascended armor alone. or even gold for it. where you dont have to farm open world content. You are not going to fool me. That stuff is expensive. Very expensive. A full set requires over 1,000g. Tell that to a new player? ANet is long overdue for opening up alternative ways to acquire ASC gear. I literally just had a friend tell me it is overwhelming to get geared for the master fractal tier level. I was ball-parking, when I said 5g.. 6.73, I wasn't far off. Also, for completing 8 dungeons? Time/cost, it's not effective. Players have the opportunity make over 20g for completing Daily Fracs. Sure you don't "need" ascended items for raids. Tell that to new players then ask them how it went when they were looking for a group. I am really not trying to lead people astray here. And Honestly your feedback is really pointless and wasted in this thread. It's not helpful at all and your tip-toeing around points that are facts everyone knows not just experienced players. 6.76 gold? Okay, compare that to the amount of rares and exotics you get from fractals in addition to the boxes which yield ~15g. Your chance for ascended armor and weapon chest? Ascended mats? Pleaseeeee, get out of here. I've noticed you like to take the conversation in a completely different direction and completely slip away from the Thread Title. Why do you even bother?? Such wasted energy. Should be making gold in dungeons, I suppose. And all these all or nothing statements and claims of no changes this no changes that. sheesh. I'll make sure to CC even if they make the slightest of change.
    So, my point, update the rewards for dungeons. It can be done.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @dontlook.1823 said:
    Copied my post from the Improve dungeon thread
    I would like to see more small group instanced content. Dungeons being the top pick for me. They could make lessor Legendary Insights that can be combined into one Legendary insight as well to help ease the grind of legendary armor.. And maybe do something about those provisioner's tokens. Its such a pointless gold sink and very inconvenient. Only getting these materials from raids/wvw/pvp is really mind-boggling. Some people don't like competitive play and there are some that don't like large group encounters.

    Won't happen. Stop hoping for easier ways of acquiring legendary pve armor. That ship sank (it was never even afloat) the moment arenanet added spvp and wvw legendary armor. If you can't or don't want to put in the raid effort, you have options in other game modes which literally only cost time and 0 skill.

    @dontlook.1823 said:

    I further don't think veteran players are making any sort of excuses saying they are outdated. They are and there is no getting around it. It's not even a QoL issue at this point. I'm losing a lot of friends that want to get back into the game but are fronted with this huge grind gate to get competitive or even viable gear. I have been playing this game for five years. There is very little reason to return to dungeons. Five gold from completing eight unique dungeons isn't cutting the cheese.

    First off, full exotic armor and exotic weapons (or even ascended weapons thanks to certain quest lines and collections) and ascended trinkets (from Living World Episodes) is NOT a huge grind. Full ascended armor is not needed for raids.

    Let's assume you want to buy an entire set of exotic gear from the trading post, that will cost you around 100 gold with high end runes and sigils. That's around 5 hours of Silverwastes Farming at medium level, 2.5 hours at max gold per hour (which is around 40g). That's for 100g, most setups and gear will cost you a fraction of that.

    Second, it's not 5 gold, here the math from another thread:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    If only one could convert tokens to gold, oh wait, one can. Strait from gw2efficiency:

    For the sub 60 dungeons where you can't get direct ecto out, it's 30 copper per token. (that's instant conversion with instant sell)
    For the dungeons above 60 which allow for direct ecto conversion, it's 65 copper per token. (that's instant conversion to ecto with instant sell)
    That's with current prices of ectos being bottomed out. That's without any fancy crafting or such.

    Now consider that you get an extra 160 tokens from dungeon paths alone AND 150 dungeon tokens free to chose from any dungeon after 8 paths and you end up with(let's assume an even split between sub and above 60 dungeons even though you can run 6 above 60 dungeons easy):
    80 x .3 = 24s
    80 x .65 = 52s
    150 x .65= 97.5s
    additionally to the 5g you get for 8 paths. That's 6.73 gold per 8 paths at absolute bottomed out ecto prices and no fancy crafting whatsoever.

    Dungeon rewards were reduced by between 70s and 2g depending on which path length you did. Suffice to say, the fast and easy paths were reduced from 1g5s to 35s.

    Let's be generous and assume a total loss of 1g per path which totals 8g for 8 paths of less liquid gold (it's actually less for fast paths but hey, who's counting).

    You are now essentially short 1.27g of dungeon gold under following assumptions:

    • ecto prices stay bottomed out (unlikely but might be the case. It's more realistic to assume that they will climb back to mid 30s)
    • current builds outperform old builds by a factor of 3-4 which makes the total time required to finish them substantially less
    • you don't actually require dungeon tokens in any way, otherwise the new system is far more favorable
    • you don't run multiple above 60 paths
    • you instant sell your ecto and token conversion, which is unrealistic since buy orders fill up instantly (especially for ecto)
    • we assume every dungeon path lost 1g of liquid gold reward (which they did not, the fast ones lost less)

    My delusions seem quite sufficiently backed up by numbers. What about yours? That's the problem with parroting forum (or subjective) nonsense without actually doing the math.

    EDIT: and yes, dungeon rewards have fallen off in value compared to other game content (of which there is multiple good farms now and dungeons are not the best farm around), go read what I wrote in my first posts which is exactly this. They did not reduce in value compared to their old rewards.

    Dungeon rewards are fine as is for the type of content and difficulty they have/are.

    @dontlook.1823 said:

    Fractals is by far not the best option because there is so much variability with the mistlock instability and agony mechanic.

    Which sets in after fractal level 20 by which time a new player will have experienced every fractal with its mechanics and setup.

    @dontlook.1823 said:
    Give people a chance to learn their attack chain without having to worry about players standing too close to them. Give players a chance to see how much damage they are contributing without there being 5-7 other people your competing with for DPS.

    Fractals are 5 man content, not 7. If you want to practice your rotation and class, go to a champion in the open world and practice away, or enter the raid training area and practice on the target golem. There is no reason to make sub 5 man dungeon content at this point in time. If you are actually interested in you personal dps outside of a golem benchmark, put on arcdps.

    @dontlook.1823 said:
    Fractals of the Mist is great stuff and I thoroughly enjoy them, but with all honesty its not how you want beginning players to start out. Its very much end-game content.

    Sub level 20 fractals of the mists are so kitten easy that all people have to do is to move away from their auto-attack-afk-press-1 open world mentality and actually spend some time understanding their class. No amount of simpler content will bridge this step since low level fractals are already beyond easy.

    More, more. More is always better. Chakata

  • Hyper Cutter.9376Hyper Cutter.9376 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Dungeons are already in game and failed as a concept.

    They didn't fail as a concept, Anet abandoned them. And then they continued to be popular, so Anet intentionally set out to make players not do them any more by gutting their rewards (and literally said this outright).

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @dontlook.1823 said:
    Jeez, where do I start. Cause this is just going to become an I am right you are wrong. I have invested my time in Legendary armor. And Weapons. And Trinkets. and Back pieces. That is exactly why I am talking about them. Further, I'm merely throwing out ideas for players to get Legendary Armor components that don't require competitive _play or _large group encounter play. Just to be clear. But the big issue here is not even that. It is a grind to get Ascended armor alone. or even gold for it. where you dont have to farm open world content. You are not going to fool me. That stuff is expensive. Very expensive. A full set requires over 1,000g.

    and I'll repeat myself, ascended armor is NOT needed for raiding and only really needed for T4 fractals which by the time you get there working through T1-T3 you will have gained experience, gold and with some luck some chests. This of does not hold true if someone tells a new player:"Make full ascended armor and join me in T4 immediately and skip the entire T1-T3 bracket, which would also make them lack the appropriate practice and experience for T4." But then again, if that's the advice you give a new player, you are giving bad advice anyway.

    Ascended armor is also available for different achievements (Bioluminescent for one, not sure what the PoF one is called).

    There is no need for giving other ways to acquire legendary armor via other pve methods, especially not easier content.

    @dontlook.1823 said:
    Tell that to a new player? ANet is long overdue for opening up alternative ways to acquire ASC gear. I literally just had a friend tell me it is overwhelming to get geared for the master fractal tier level.

    If you told your friend to jump strait into T4 fractals and did not give him any advice as to where he could gain ascended armor pieces besides purely crafting them, sure it will be tedious. What does your bad advice have to do with any of this though? If your friend spent any time in fractals he will be more than able to have gathered some fractal research pages which will further reduce the cost of the first ascended set.

    Not even to mention that completing the raid collections (and once again, raiding does NOT require ascended armor) give 2 full sets of ascended gear.

    @dontlook.1823 said:
    Sure you don't "need" ascended items for raids. Tell that to new players then ask them how it went when they were looking for a group. I am really not trying to lead people astray here.

    I never said items, I said ARMOR. Go read what the actual stat bonuses on ascended armor are. If you are actually telling new players that they should make ascended armor for raids, I really feel sorry for any one going to you for advice. A player in full exotic gear with ascended trinkets and ascended weapons (all of which are easily farmed within less than 1 week of medium casual play) is more than capable of joining any raid or fractal up to T3.

  • @Hyper Cutter.9376 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Dungeons are already in game and failed as a concept.

    They didn't fail as a concept, Anet abandoned them. And then they continued to be popular, so Anet intentionally set out to make players not do them any more by gutting their rewards (and literally said this outright).

    And then they reversed course and un-nerfed the rewards (and literally said so outright). If you run 8 unique paths, the rewards are now just about more valuable than before the nerf.
    ANet abandoned dungeons 3-4 years ago, well before either of the reward changes. The community didn't leave until they discovered there were easier ways to increase gold and other ways to have fun (and make gold).

    Hype is the path to the dark side. Hype leads to unfulfilled expectations. Disappointment leads to anger. Anger leads to disgust. Disgust leads to "oh, new shinies! I'm back!"

  • No reason they cant keep the dungeons in as is and add a new level 80 path with the mechanics the OP so described.

    Reason I say level 80 is because the power creep from the expansions is real.
    The real question to be answered is do they scale the new paths from core classes or from E-Specs.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Draeyon.4392 said:
    No reason they cant keep the dungeons in as is and add a new level 80 path with the mechanics the OP so described.

    Reason I say level 80 is because the power creep from the expansions is real.
    The real question to be answered is do they scale the new paths from core classes or from E-Specs.

    Let the old dungeons stay as they are, there is no reason to bother, and zero way to monetize it, zero profit for Anet.
    Creating new dungeons in the new expansion zones solves all the problems.
    That way, it is REQUIRED to buy an expansion to play the dungeons = more profit for Anet, if dungeon runners know they will get 2-3+ dungeons per expansion, they will buy the expansion to support that. Fractals do not require expansion purchase (neither do old dungeons)
    Second, they will balance with new dungeons on level 80 characters with ascended gear and elite specs, because it's expansion content. Zero reason to deal with low level balance, as it would if they changed old dungeons.
    Win-win

    tl;dr: keep old dungeons as they are and make new ones in expansion zones

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lipzipper.3160 said:
    --- I am biased here, I consider Gw2s best part to be its combat and its worst to be storytelling (especially some dialogue that has me cringe, but anyway.)

    I won't argue with you on the storytelling quality part (while i think that some parts are really great, others were really, really bad). I wouldn't call combat to be the best part of gw2 - not unless i wasn't thinking much about all the rest of the game. There's a reason why all the raids, new fractals and many of the new story instances are not about combat at all, but about executing special boss mechanics - and it's not because developers think combat is that great.

    All that is about quality, however. If we consider the importance of those parts of the game, in my opinion the importance of story, lore and worldbuilding is way greater than the importance of combat. If i was interested mainly in the second, i'd not pick a MMORPG game to play.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Let the old dungeons stay as they are, there is no reason to bother, and zero way to monetize it, zero profit for Anet.
    Creating new dungeons in the new expansion zones solves all the problems.
    That way, it is REQUIRED to buy an expansion to play the dungeons = more profit for Anet, if dungeon runners know they will get 2-3+ dungeons per expansion, they will buy the expansion to support that. Fractals do not require expansion purchase (neither do old dungeons)
    Second, they will balance with new dungeons on level 80 characters with ascended gear and elite specs, because it's expansion content. Zero reason to deal with low level balance, as it would if they changed old dungeons.
    Win-win

    tl;dr: keep old dungeons as they are and make new ones in expansion zones

    That is something i can wholeheartedly agree on. Just don't make them 5-man mini-raids.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Lipzipper.3160Lipzipper.3160 Member ✭✭
    edited November 23, 2017

    @Zaklex.6308 said:
    I saw all the dungeons before they went live, and that was the last time I stepped inside them besides Arah, and that was only once. There's absolutely no need to revamp the dungeons nor should the current state be giving new players a bad introduction because new players shouldn't even be doing anything with them, personal story or no, there is not one single reason a new player should have to step inside of the current original dungeons, they can bypass them and go straight to fractals...therefore not hurting fractals. Simpler solution is to steer the new players to fractals and away from the dungeons since they're basically an orphaned part of GW2.

    The game leads players into the dungeons as low as at level 30, so yes, most people will enter dungeons before fractals.

  • Lipzipper.3160Lipzipper.3160 Member ✭✭
    edited November 23, 2017

    I'd just like to let everyone that has been wondering know that Arenanet renamed and moved my thread from the discussion forum (this thread was ment as a discussion about how dungeons might hurt the game by being at their current state), but it has been deemed a suggestion thread. My post was ment to share ideas and solutions to the problem. This is in no way a thread about I dont like dungeons, so they should change. I realize that I use "I want" and "I think" in the post alot and it might come of as such, but it is meant as "I believe this, what do you believe?

    I have also corrected the typo left after the thread was moved, from "sugguestion" to "suggestion" as some have messaged me about out.

  • Lipzipper.3160Lipzipper.3160 Member ✭✭
    edited November 23, 2017

    @dontlook.1823 said:
    Copied my post from the Improve dungeon thread
    I would like to see more small group instanced content. Dungeons being the top pick for me. They could make lessor Legendary Insights that can be combined into one Legendary insights as well to help ease the grind of legendary armor.. And maybe do something about those provisioner's tokens. Its such a pointless gold sink and very inconvenient. Only getting these materials from raids/wvw/pvp is really mind-boggling. Some people don't like competitive play and there are some that don't like large group encounters.

    I further don't think veteran players are making any sort of excuses saying they are outdated. They are and there is no getting around it. It's not even a QoL issue at this point. I'm losing a lot of friends that want to get back into the game but are fronted with this huge grind gate to get competitive or even viable gear. I have been playing this game for five years. There is very little reason to return to dungeons. Five gold from completing eight unique dungeons isn't cutting the cheese. After several bug fixes, a reward system rework, and access to higher tier gear/materials, dungeons would be sound content to engage in. Further, I don't think Arenanet would lose out economically, in fact I'm sure beyond an utterable doubt they won't and will actually benefit. Small group instanced content is very popular among MMORPGs. I am even going to go as far as saying small group encounters is one of the best ways to hone your profession and play-style as your not bogged down with specific requirements to fill a specific roll.

    Fractals is by far not the best option because there is so much variability with the mistlock instability and agony mechanic. Give people a chance to learn their attack chain without having to worry about players standing too close to them. Give players a chance to see how much damage they are contributing without there being 5-7 other people your competing with for DPS. The list of examples goes on and on. Fractals of the Mist is great stuff and I thoroughly enjoy them, but with all honesty its not how you want beginning players to start out. Its very much end-game content. I would argue even further that its for players seeking a little bit of an extra challenge. But by no means should it be the preferred game mode for players. Raids are good too, but as I stated it is a large group encounter. Its a great addition but least we forget small group encounters that don't have all these strong chaotic instabilities procing. Content like this shouldn't be ignored. Its really a serious matter IMHO. Going forward I sure hope they consider making changes. I have some confidence they will because PvP when it first came out was very unrewarding. The PvP team had no intentions of changing this until the community brought this to their attention. Now, players have a completely overhauled PvP system.

    So I'd like to make it clear for those who don't have anything useful to add, it doesn't really help the cause. I'm looking out for the community as a whole.

    Thank you for adding to the discussion :) The health and growth of the community is a bias I share.
    I can see the appeal of the legendary insight "fragments" idea you propose because, atleast from my point of view; Raids, fractals and dungeons are the same content [Instanced, grouped PvE] and I dont seen why they shouldn't intertwine. BUT, that is a different discussion.

  • @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Lipzipper.3160 said:
    --- I am biased here, I consider Gw2s best part to be its combat and its worst to be storytelling (especially some dialogue that has me cringe, but anyway.)

    I won't argue with you on the storytelling quality part (while i think that some parts are really great, others were really, really bad). I wouldn't call combat to be the best part of gw2 - not unless i wasn't thinking much about all the rest of the game. There's a reason why all the raids, new fractals and many of the new story instances are not about combat at all, but about executing special boss mechanics - and it's not because developers think combat is that great.

    All that is about quality, however. If we consider the importance of those parts of the game, in my opinion the importance of story, lore and worldbuilding is way greater than the importance of combat. If i was interested mainly in the second, i'd not pick a MMORPG game to play.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Let the old dungeons stay as they are, there is no reason to bother, and zero way to monetize it, zero profit for Anet.
    Creating new dungeons in the new expansion zones solves all the problems.
    That way, it is REQUIRED to buy an expansion to play the dungeons = more profit for Anet, if dungeon runners know they will get 2-3+ dungeons per expansion, they will buy the expansion to support that. Fractals do not require expansion purchase (neither do old dungeons)
    Second, they will balance with new dungeons on level 80 characters with ascended gear and elite specs, because it's expansion content. Zero reason to deal with low level balance, as it would if they changed old dungeons.
    Win-win

    tl;dr: keep old dungeons as they are and make new ones in expansion zones

    That is something i can wholeheartedly agree on. Just don't make them 5-man mini-raids.

    I can see why you believe that and this is a bit subjective also, but IF the gameplay/combat were bad people would stop playing even if the game had the best story ever written.
    The story comes and goes, you like it, you hate it, you move on. The combat/gameplay is something you all the time.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lipzipper.3160 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Lipzipper.3160 said:
    --- I am biased here, I consider Gw2s best part to be its combat and its worst to be storytelling (especially some dialogue that has me cringe, but anyway.)

    I won't argue with you on the storytelling quality part (while i think that some parts are really great, others were really, really bad). I wouldn't call combat to be the best part of gw2 - not unless i wasn't thinking much about all the rest of the game. There's a reason why all the raids, new fractals and many of the new story instances are not about combat at all, but about executing special boss mechanics - and it's not because developers think combat is that great.

    All that is about quality, however. If we consider the importance of those parts of the game, in my opinion the importance of story, lore and worldbuilding is way greater than the importance of combat. If i was interested mainly in the second, i'd not pick a MMORPG game to play.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Let the old dungeons stay as they are, there is no reason to bother, and zero way to monetize it, zero profit for Anet.
    Creating new dungeons in the new expansion zones solves all the problems.
    That way, it is REQUIRED to buy an expansion to play the dungeons = more profit for Anet, if dungeon runners know they will get 2-3+ dungeons per expansion, they will buy the expansion to support that. Fractals do not require expansion purchase (neither do old dungeons)
    Second, they will balance with new dungeons on level 80 characters with ascended gear and elite specs, because it's expansion content. Zero reason to deal with low level balance, as it would if they changed old dungeons.
    Win-win

    tl;dr: keep old dungeons as they are and make new ones in expansion zones

    That is something i can wholeheartedly agree on. Just don't make them 5-man mini-raids.

    I can see why you believe that and this is a bit subjective also, but IF the gameplay/combat were bad people would stop playing even if the game had the best story ever written.
    The story comes and goes, you like it, you hate it, you move on. The combat/gameplay is something you all the time.

    While I do agree that both story and combat are important, I have to disagree with your combat statement.

    There is enough people who auto-attack-afk-1 in open world content and just autopilot through the insanely easy open world stuff that quite frankly, no matter how good or bad the game play and combat system might be, most would not notice. The best I'd settle for is: the combat system is not off-putting. I would not go so far as to use this as justification that the combat system is better than the story.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 23, 2017

    Funnily enough I disagree with the op for the exact argument that he present...

    I think that the dungeons are fine as they are, sure exotic dungeon skin droping on boss might be interesting but not necessary. I think that fractals could also host most of those dungeon paths with a bit more difficulty but I don't mean that I want to see the originals disappear.

    Dungeon are fine as they are. Some path are more challenging than other but they teach pretty well cooperation in the game. Even stacking is a good thing to learn. Thought they could work a bit on some boss fight to avoid the LoS exploit, it would be also fine if this only happened for fractal version of these boss fights.

    NB.: It might seem strange but I like the possibility to skip add from an ethic point of view. The purpose of the game should not be an endless slaugther of poor mobs. Having rewarding alternatives is a bliss. Adds do not strictly add difficulty, they make thing more tedious than anything. Having different way to deal with them is a better thing for the game than forcing player into mindless killing spree.

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Lipzipper.3160 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Lipzipper.3160 said:
    --- I am biased here, I consider Gw2s best part to be its combat and its worst to be storytelling (especially some dialogue that has me cringe, but anyway.)

    I won't argue with you on the storytelling quality part (while i think that some parts are really great, others were really, really bad). I wouldn't call combat to be the best part of gw2 - not unless i wasn't thinking much about all the rest of the game. There's a reason why all the raids, new fractals and many of the new story instances are not about combat at all, but about executing special boss mechanics - and it's not because developers think combat is that great.

    All that is about quality, however. If we consider the importance of those parts of the game, in my opinion the importance of story, lore and worldbuilding is way greater than the importance of combat. If i was interested mainly in the second, i'd not pick a MMORPG game to play.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Let the old dungeons stay as they are, there is no reason to bother, and zero way to monetize it, zero profit for Anet.
    Creating new dungeons in the new expansion zones solves all the problems.
    That way, it is REQUIRED to buy an expansion to play the dungeons = more profit for Anet, if dungeon runners know they will get 2-3+ dungeons per expansion, they will buy the expansion to support that. Fractals do not require expansion purchase (neither do old dungeons)
    Second, they will balance with new dungeons on level 80 characters with ascended gear and elite specs, because it's expansion content. Zero reason to deal with low level balance, as it would if they changed old dungeons.
    Win-win

    tl;dr: keep old dungeons as they are and make new ones in expansion zones

    That is something i can wholeheartedly agree on. Just don't make them 5-man mini-raids.

    I can see why you believe that and this is a bit subjective also, but IF the gameplay/combat were bad people would stop playing even if the game had the best story ever written.
    The story comes and goes, you like it, you hate it, you move on. The combat/gameplay is something you all the time.

    While I do agree that both story and combat are important, I have to disagree with your combat statement.

    There is enough people who auto-attack-afk-1 in open world content and just autopilot through the insanely easy open world stuff that quite frankly, no matter how good or bad the game play and combat system might be, most would not notice. The best I'd settle for is: the combat system is not off-putting. I would not go so far as to use this as justification that the combat system is better than the story.

    We are not discussing open world here

  • xDudisx.5914xDudisx.5914 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 23, 2017

    The dungeon paths are not bad. They just got old, offer little reward and people got bored to repeat the same thing over and over. If you are doing them for the first time, most dungeon paths are nice and have a decent narrative.

    I would suggest a reward increase in about 10-20% and put some new achievements there. Maybe create a new set of armor (or one piece of gear) for each dungeon.

  • SkyShroud.2865SkyShroud.2865 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Sorry, dungeon is abandoned, raid is the new dungeon, anet's current direction.

    Founder & Leader of Equinox Solstice [TIME], a Singapore-Based International PvX Guild
    Henge of Denravi Server
    www.gw2time.com

    --

    Explanations of WvW Structures & Populations Issues

  • Lipzipper.3160Lipzipper.3160 Member ✭✭
    edited December 7, 2017

    I have thought alot about this since I wrote this post, and I have started to redo dungeons fairly often. I have sort of changed my mind. The powercreep of the new expansion has deemed all the all tactics uneccesary for fast runs, and the dungeons have become more enjoyable because of it. What has to be done now in my opinion is changing the attitude of some players and add more available information of the dungeons in game. Many players, not just the new ones, do not even realize that there are event descriptions on the right side of the screen in dungeons which has proven itself many times as I have had to explain this and basic concepts like why we target certain npcs. Its up to all players to make the dungeons as good as they can be by making newer players experience more enjoyable, but a little help from the game UI would help alot. Keep the content, add more information and let go of outdated game tactics(you know who you are.). Full clears are the new common tactic in my experience.

    This is my new stance, and salute to Anet for making fractals longer and more story oriented allowing dungeonhungry players satisfaction.

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