Conditions Need A Rework, Not Small Tweaks

If the devs continue with the philosophy set forth by the resent mini patch, only one of two things will happen:

1. Nothing changes and conditions remain dominant.
2. Conditions become so weak they see no use.

There needs to be a system where conditions are damage over time, not just power damage that it's easier to apply and requires fewer stats to be effective. A possible solution would be to bring back the tic system from GW1. That system placed a cap on how much damage per second you could take from conditions. In order for this to work though some major changes would have to happen:

1. Condition damage as a stat would disappear because conditions would be applying tics that have a standard amount of damage. For example, each tic would always do 100 DPS, up to 10 tics. Conditions with extra effects like poison would only do one tic. Bleeding could do 3 tics and last a moderate duration by default, while burning can apply 4 or 5 but has a very low base duration. Torment would do only 1 tic while standing still but 3 while moving. These are just example and a lot of testing would need to be done to find balance. It might be worthwhile to remove Ferocity from PvP as well since conditions would only be using one stat.
2. Limiting the amount of conditions each class has access to. Each class should only have access to one or two damaging conditions. Elite Specs can add ONE more, at the cost of something else. Not another condition, but like how Spellbreaker loses level 2 and 3 bursts for Full Counter.
3. Condition removal will need rebalancing. It would make sense to have some skills and traits focused on damaging conditions, while others can focus on mobility condis and such.

Now, all of these changes would be PvP and probably WvW only. The way open world works this system wouldn't work, but the ideas from the last patch might.

Don't worry, they'll rework them for the next expansion in 2 years. Condition rework will be their selling point of the next expansion.

I don't think there's grounds to remove condition damage.But i agree with you. Each class should have a unique set of conditions (2-3 max) available to them, and not just about everything.I also agree that condition removal, resistance and stability need reworking.

I'd probably add a new "resistance" stat replacing the boon, that stat would be increased through vitality and toughness (as to avoid having a new primary stat added to gear), as well as food. If that were to happen i'd change stability to also work like resistance (but without losing stacks to give resistance).Otherwise i'd change a bit how resistance (the boon) works. Instead of denying the effect of condis for x ammount of time, i'd make it stack intensity. Each stack would reduce condition duration 3%, and you'd gain an extra stack for every condition stack on you on time of casting (up to 25 - so 75% duratio reduction). And i'd change most condi cleanse skills to give resistance instead of cleansing x stacks.

But also they need to improve the viability of power damage. Sure it can burst high, but then for most classes it dips too much, which is why at the end condi damage usually outdpses power on single targets.

I do think the current approach is for the best though. A huge overhaul has too much risk of completely invalidating that damage option. Which, at the pace that Arena Net rebalances would make a lot of classes and builds that focus on condi damage useless. And you'd probably not have many viable solutions to replace those builds in PvE/Raids.

@BurrTheKing.8571 said:If the devs continue with the philosophy set forth by the resent mini patch, only one of two things will happen:

1. Nothing changes and conditions remain dominant.
2. Conditions become so weak they see no use.

There needs to be a system where conditions are damage over time, not just power damage that it's easier to apply and requires fewer stats to be effective. A possible solution would be to bring back the tic system from GW1. That system placed a cap on how much damage per second you could take from conditions. In order for this to work though some major changes would have to happen:

1. Condition damage as a stat would disappear because conditions would be applying tics that have a standard amount of damage. For example, each tic would always do 100 DPS, up to 10 tics. Conditions with extra effects like poison would only do one tic. Bleeding could do 3 tics and last a moderate duration by default, while burning can apply 4 or 5 but has a very low base duration. Torment would do only 1 tic while standing still but 3 while moving. These are just example and a lot of testing would need to be done to find balance. It might be worthwhile to remove Ferocity from PvP as well since conditions would only be using one stat.
2. Limiting the amount of conditions each class has access to. Each class should only have access to one or two damaging conditions. Elite Specs can add ONE more, at the cost of something else. Not another condition, but like how Spellbreaker loses level 2 and 3 bursts for Full Counter.
3. Condition removal will need rebalancing. It would make sense to have some skills and traits focused on damaging conditions, while others can focus on mobility condis and such.

Now, all of these changes would be PvP and probably WvW only. The way open world works this system wouldn't work, but the ideas from the last patch might.

The problem that I keep seeing and keep talking about is that conditions were not designed to work like EQ-style DoTs, but that's how the devs seem to (myopically) see them. Seeing them in that way is absurd, because, unlike most historical MMOs, this game has a fast-paced, active combat system. Having conditions operate as long duration DoTs with high damage output makes no sense, because the point at which condi passes power will always be too long in PvP or too short in PvE. The latest patch was the exact opposite approach they should have taken to balance condi.

Conditions ignore armor, so they in fact should have lower base damage and should be balanced around short durations. With the amount of condi cleanse and immunity we have in game now, this would make conditions underpowered, but it's still the proper solution to shorten durations, lower damage, and peel back sources of cleanse and immunity.

At a fundamental level, yes. But do you really want ANet to experiment at this point? It's clear the team that designed the skills in 2012 isn't here anymore.

For now I'd be happy with just some nerfs so I can enjoy some illusion of balance for a while.

I think the problem is that there are too many things that can mitigate POWER damage (protection, weakness, toughness), but NOTHING that can mitigate condi damage. perhaps we need a "condi weakness" that power builds can apply.

I like how cleanse removing all stacks of conditions isn’t considered “mitigation.”

I heard from ppl that the way condis worked in gw1 was fine so i dont get why they needed to change them.

I think the issue with condis is that they are more forgiving than power builds lately. Oh you missed your skills? no problem, you can still apply a bunch of condis with the rest of your skills/aas and do a lot of dmg. Also, I think there are too many things that mitigate power damage (toughness, protection, weakness). While condi really only cleaning which often is RNG because of shitty condis being cleaned instead and not clean soon enough., and also resistance, not something for every class, and even warrior per say, with a lot of resistance struggles to deal with condis.

I think resistance should be a base stats like toughness not a boon that can be corrupted. something that certain classes have more than others naturally and could be added as stats to some amulets for example.Also, I think it is shitty there are basically one condition that makes power so weak (weakness). necros can spam that which makes even more stupid to kill them. but there is no condi that mitigates condition dmg. perhaps if there was a type of condition weakness put in power builds it would be a bit more balanced, and it would not even affect the PvE aspect of the game.

@"zealex.9410" said:I heard from ppl that the way condis worked in gw1 was fine so i dont get why they needed to change them.

PvE. Even in GW1 conditions were simply worse than direct damage builds in a PvE setting, but it wasn't really a big thing. GW2 is a PvE game so they felt it was fine to absolutely nuke PvP gameplay from orbit in favor of getting PvE a couple more viable builds.

I think condition damage as a stat is the problem in GW2, and having pure condition damage as a viable thing. In GW1 basically every condition build was more of a hybrid of both direct damage and condition damage, it was 50-50 at best. Now in GW2 we can have builds where 90% of the damage comes from conditions and the build must do the same damage as power builds, or even more according to Anet because "conditions have a ramp up time " - yeah of 0.5 seconds in the current meta.

At launch condi was high sustain, low but consistent damage. Now both condi and power are the same thing except condi has things that make power builds useless like weakness.

remember the resistances in world of warcaft ?

@jihm.2315 said:remember the resistances in world of warcaft ?

Never played WoW.

Based on the current state of the game, its direction, and its mechanisms of development and balance, there can be made a case for a three amulet system for sPvP, each an iteration on a singular stat scheme:

Main: Power, PrecisionMinor: Vitality, "Variable"

Variable = Ferocity, Condition Damage, Healing Power

The core focus is that it limits extremes in build variation where problematic builds are more keen to consistently rise while still providing some diversity in roles based on stats alone.

Strong power output without the more extreme bursts of high ferocity.

Limiting condition damage to supplimentary damage, preventing extreme condition burst viability. Namely, limiting conditions to their purpose of intent as sustained damage rather than burst.

Healing contribution for personal and supportive sustain, but not at a level that guarantees another player can be easily kept alive without their own defensive contribution or indefinitely without counter pressure.

Or we could just nerf scourge and mirage, and stop trying to reinvent the wheel.

@"Crinn.7864" said:Or we could just nerf scourge and mirage, and stop trying to reinvent the wheel.

Or we stop bullshitting that the problem is solely in numbers ad start balancing around counters. The problem with scourge is that the "only" counters to it are not that great in general. So people don't play it.If Power ranger and Deadeye were stronger no one would be complaining about scourge.

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@"Crinn.7864" said:Or we could just nerf scourge and mirage, and stop trying to reinvent the wheel.

No if power ranger and deadeye where stronger, you'd still be getting constant complaints from all the other classes about scourge.

@Crinn.7864 said:

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:Or we could just nerf scourge and mirage, and stop trying to reinvent the wheel.

Well, even if scourge would hit 1 damage per tick there would still be people from other classes complaining about scourge. That's what people do.Otherwise, not really. Because scourge would be shut down entirely. There's always going to be a class that can rain down on others with ease, what you need is proper counters. That way you have that class under control, even if it beats other classes, you know that you can still get rid of it.Plus Scourge, if you give players a way to counter shade dominance on points, will only need small tweaks to condi damage to be balance, and i mean really minor ones.The problem right now is that to contest a point from a class/aoe that will destroy you in close/medium range. You'll not only lose your boons but you'll get them turned into damage.Of course if people only stopped to think "humm i have a ton of boons, maybe i shouldn't melee that guy?"Perfect even numerical balance, where every character is exactly the same is boring. I don't think there's a single game that has that.

@eaverKane.7598 power ranger with the new elite is already extemelly strong, u just have alot of bad players sayting class is bad so they get even less effort.

Ranger was always a decent class, but then badies complained to get more "skilled".

it is actually way easier to snipe a target with ranger than actually a deadeye.... with ranger atm u can blokc, absorv nor reflect since everything like that Anet treats has a blokc in counter, so the ranger dont QQ more, wich are all counters to deadeye.

BurrTheKing.8571 , like i tend to repeat, GW2 is not a game towards player skill, but how towards a player can find a lamer gimmick and be carried to obtain rewards, Anet will continue with lamers gameplay, this is what gw2 was ment for.

@Aeolus.3615 said:@eaverKane.7598 power ranger with the new elite is already extemelly strong, u just have alot of bad players sayting class is bad so they get even less effort.

Ranger was always a decent class, but then badies complained to get more "skilled".

it is actually way easier to snipe a target with ranger than actually a deadeye.... with ranger atm u can blokc, absorv nor reflect since everything like that Anet treats has a blokc in counter, so the ranger dont QQ more, wich are all counters to deadeye.

BurrTheKing.8571 , like i tend to repeat, GW2 is not a game towards player skill, but how towards a player can find a lamer gimmick and be carried to obtain rewards, Anet will continue with lamers gameplay, this is what gw2 was ment for.

Oh trust me, i know that power soulbeast is strong, condi is better, but on the current state i'd probably play power atm, since with condi i'd just be fueling the scourges power.My two most played classes for pvp are ranger and necro, so i know they're both viable. Just that people don't play power ranger as much, so maybe some improvement would even it up a bit.

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:@eaverKane.7598 power ranger with the new elite is already extemelly strong, u just have alot of bad players sayting class is bad so they get even less effort.

Ranger was always a decent class, but then badies complained to get more "skilled".

it is actually way easier to snipe a target with ranger than actually a deadeye.... with ranger atm u can blokc, absorv nor reflect since everything like that Anet treats has a blokc in counter, so the ranger dont QQ more, wich are all counters to deadeye.

BurrTheKing.8571 , like i tend to repeat, GW2 is not a game towards player skill, but how towards a player can find a lamer gimmick and be carried to obtain rewards, Anet will continue with lamers gameplay, this is what gw2 was ment for.

As Anet been doing when classes need to be more played... power damage output.

Dont expect clever improvements :P this is gw2 and its done by LamerNet, lulz.

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:@eaverKane.7598 power ranger with the new elite is already extemelly strong, u just have alot of bad players sayting class is bad so they get even less effort.

Ranger was always a decent class, but then badies complained to get more "skilled".

it is actually way easier to snipe a target with ranger than actually a deadeye.... with ranger atm u can blokc, absorv nor reflect since everything like that Anet treats has a blokc in counter, so the ranger dont QQ more, wich are all counters to deadeye.

BurrTheKing.8571 , like i tend to repeat, GW2 is not a game towards player skill, but how towards a player can find a lamer gimmick and be carried to obtain rewards, Anet will continue with lamers gameplay, this is what gw2 was ment for.

Well, not really, but, ok...In this situation it would be the best, really.The problem with scourge isn't really a problem with scourge, for the most part.There's 4 issues that make scourge too strong for most people to handle (not too strong overal, just for most people to handle):1) Shades can't be countered. I've already talked about this in another thread. Adding a way to either cc them out of points, or add a break bar to them that makes them dissipate, or even something like Taliyah's Worked Ground on League of Legends, preventing casting the shades in the same spot repeatedly.2) There's too many condition builds. Scourge+ Consume conditions + Plague Signet just eats up other condi builds3) There's too much boon spam. Too many weapons and professions just spit out boons willy nilly. People thought spellbreaker would be powerful cause he negates them. Scourge is powerful as hell because he can turn them against their owner more often than core necro could.4) PvP has turned casual. There's no more "pros" to make public how to counter these. So people assume that just because they can't, and other people on their skill level seem to have issues, then it's impossible.

Pretty much this was a perfect storm for scourge to dominate.

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:@eaverKane.7598 power ranger with the new elite is already extemelly strong, u just have alot of bad players sayting class is bad so they get even less effort.

Ranger was always a decent class, but then badies complained to get more "skilled".

it is actually way easier to snipe a target with ranger than actually a deadeye.... with ranger atm u can blokc, absorv nor reflect since everything like that Anet treats has a blokc in counter, so the ranger dont QQ more, wich are all counters to deadeye.

BurrTheKing.8571 , like i tend to repeat, GW2 is not a game towards player skill, but how towards a player can find a lamer gimmick and be carried to obtain rewards, Anet will continue with lamers gameplay, this is what gw2 was ment for.

ranger is a good example of that ;) look at the damage updates class has sufered on the past, Anet even tried to implement to class a huge damage output buff, i do remmeber with bunker stats hitting like a zerker, every one was doing that and going for soldier on WvW.Im not saying it is how Anet actually ends with stuff, but it is the main source for them to making a class more playeable, since they dont care about balance at all, jsut hen players complain they feel forced to change it... damage outpuit is in 1st place, rather than mechanics or kewl stuff besides... damage.

DH is another good example, a extremelly bad designed class to make guardian achieve current bursts(damage output) similiar to other classes with a one pony trick, rather than design a interesting class.

@ReaverKane.7598 said:3) There's too much boon spam. Too many weapons and professions just spit out boons willy nilly. People thought spellbreaker would be powerful cause he negates them. Scourge is powerful as hell because he can turn them against their owner more often than core necro could.Almost as if Anet saw this problem and designed something to counter it... (pretend I posted that thinking emoji here)

I'm waiting for a stealth mechanic rework since 2013. Maybe after that they find the time to rework conditions and boons

Is condi dmg a problem or is it the way some classes like scourge and mesmer apply ir?