Meta Feedback Post (Feb 6 Balance Update) — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Meta Feedback Post (Feb 6 Balance Update)

Swordfish.8512Swordfish.8512 Member ✭✭
edited February 13, 2018 in WvW

Introduction

Hi all,
This post is to summarize my view on the current WvW Metagame, as well as provide small constructive feedback about both current status of classes and small ideas. Usually I go by The Blue Rangerr, and am an admin at Metabattle.com for their WvW section. I will be aiming to keep all feedback at a realistic level, and maintain current class identities with any proposed changes, and encourage everyone to do the same. This marks the second of these posts, and with continued good feedback I will continue to summarise the metagame for each major balance update.

The aim of this post is to start some discussion and constructive feedback about the state of the Q1 2018 WvW Metagame. For the purpose of this discussion, I'll be sticking strictly to zerg v zerg builds, but please feel free to add in anything you find relevant to the roaming scene. I will be going on a class-by-class basis, looking at the roles, builds and strengths of each class and how they contribute to group gameplay. Feedback will be divided in to 'practical' (small changes that are realistic and will provide benefit to a fun game style) and 'Idealistic' (changes that are unlikely and large scale, but could diversify the game and create new fun ways to play).

Rather than commenting directly on 'pirate ship' or anything else, I will focus on the gameplay of each class and their strengths in the game mode. Ranged compositions remain extremely powerful for down generation from safe distances, but small numbers are still easily dominated by a comp with a strong close range core of scourges and firebrands. Melee groups suffer from both boon corruptions that prevent pushing and from an inability to tank the damage that has risen from 2 expansion's worth of power creep. Whilst damage has skyrocketed, defensive ability is not enough to keep up in the WvW setting, where even a full Minstrel heavy class can be destroyed in a split second to focused damage or errors in positioning. Once upon a time small errors could be forgiven, but now WvW is a high danger game mode for every class.

Guardian

Guardian remains the king of the WvW meta, a must have in any comp ranging from smallmans to giant zergs. This lies mainly in its unique ability to provide considerable AoE stability, and with the Firebrand Elite Specialization the significant healing and condition cleansing it brings. The current metagame relies upon the firebrand to fill a support role through both boon support and healing, as well as providing vital crowd control. Without the support provided by the Firebrands, or once by the core Guardians, many classes would struggle to operate at all in WvW zerg gameplay. I remain firm in the belief that a metagame revolving around Guardian gameplay is a fun and stable place for the game mode- the only legitimate way to change this would be to add more stability options to other classes, as nerfing the Guardian extremely would see close quarters gameplay flounder.
In the current metagame, the Frontline Firebrand has shifted to an almost entirely Minstrel based build to support its unique boon support and healing. This further distinguishes its unique roles, with the damage dealing being left to other classes or Guardians built specifically for DPS. This means the Celestial Firebrand, whilst still seeing use, is on the decline when compared with its full support counterpart, as taking a single Firebrand in Minstrels can fill support role with only a single party slot. The Burn Dragonhunter, Burn Firebrand and Burn Core Guardian are all viable slots for damage, being used in numerous groups thanks to a substantial AoE pressure. Power builds such as Longbow DH, kitten Aegis Firebrand and Radiance Firebrand are growing in prevalence, but remain sub-optimal compared to other DPS classes available.

My main feedback for Guardian would be to keep its support abilities in tact, especially for the Firebrand, as it enables other classes to have fun and participate in the game mode. The nerfs Firebrand saw recently hit hardest in smallscale gameplay, but have leaked in to zerg v zerg battles as well. The healing reductions of the F2 Resolve Tome are not significant- a Minstrel Firebrand was already overhealing when using this tome- but hits to Mantras took their tole. The only realistic way to remove Guardian from the metagame is to bring another class up to the same level of Stability AoE uptime.

  1. Practical Changes
  • Remove the cast time on F123 Tome skills
  • Decrease time between pulses and passive healing for Signet of Courage to create a viable full healing Elite skill
  1. Idealistic Changes
  • N/A (I do not believe Guardian requires any game breaking change)

Necromancer

Necromancer, like the Guardian, has always been at the core of the WvW Metagame. This is because of immense AoE pressure as well as the ability to deal high damage, corrupt and control boons whilst maintain a moderate level of personal survivability. The Scourge Elite Specialisation is so powerful it defines the current metagame, thanks in no small part to its high AoE ground pressure, easy access to boon corrupts and variety of viable builds. The boon corrupts alone place scourge as a must have in any group. Boon counterplay is vital to generating downs, as boons are the primary method of sustain in the WvW metagame. Add to this the high damage output, and Scourge becomes not just a strong option but a must take option.
In the current metagame, Scourge also brings easily accessible Barrier and condition cleanse, as well as the unique ability to move downstate allies quickly on a low cooldown whilst reviving them. These 'Blood Scourges' have created a modern gameplay pattern revolving around the knowledge that enemy downs will most assuredly be moved in the North American servers, and is picking up traction in the EU. The power to control downstates has always been a vital part of any WvW metagame, whether it has been mass-cleave on downstates, blink stomps, stealthing downs, Mercy Rune revivals or now Transfusions. Giving this ability to the single best boon corrupter and AoE pressure class has created a vacuum for other specialisations. The idea of boon counterplay is vital to a fun WvW metagame, but currently Scourge is encouraged to fire off as many abilities as fast as possible, rather than focus on corruption or on targeting enemies.

The current state of Scourge sees them doing as much Power damage as Condition, if not more, thanks to the strength of Celestial Scourge. High power scaling on Desert Shroud, as well as the access to Wells, means that Power Scourges are a strong option for DPS. Condition based Scourge has taken a few hits, notably to the Curses trait 'Path of Corruption' and the condition changes that limited their burst ability. Despite this, condition based Scourge builds are still extremely powerful due to the nature of boon corruptions and the easy access the class has to a variety of damaging conditions, as well as a single trait 'Dhuumfire' that activates on all Shade skills. Support Scourge remains niche, without enough barrier or healing to be a competitive heal slot, but thanks to Transfusion can still have a place in any composition just for the safety of knowing a tanky, healing scourge will always be alive to move and revive your downed allies.

  1. Practical Changes
  • Grant Scourge another source of Barrier application and healing to assist support focused builds.
  • Improve the identity of the Death Magic traitline as a personal sustain spec focused around securing kills- such as small HP gain on kill, Power after kill(instead of toughness>Power) etc.
  • Give a very small Internal Cooldown to Unending Corruption (one that only activates PER TARGET so you can still use it in an AoE setting) such as 3-4s to prevent spam boon corruptions.
  1. Idealistic Changes
  • Change the Boon Corrupt order so that Stability is the last boon to be removed, as it is already taken by many other traits and by any CC skills
  • Change the Boon Corrupt functionality so that Resistance no longer becomes Immobilize.

Elementalist

Elementalist has moved from damage, to support, back to damage over the course of the game's lifespan. Whilst retaining extremely powerful healing abilities and a unique access to multiple large AoE water fields, the massive damage output from the Staff weapon set is simply too high to ignore. Currently, Weaver is the highest potential damage class in the game, thanks a variety of AoE skills- many of which are ground targetted- and extremely high stat boosts from traitlines. Tempest has access to a variety of auras and the ability to heal through aura sharing, as well as the Water traitline's ability to focus on raw healing, cleansing, cooldowns or utility. All that Elementalist lacks is the ability to deal damage at melee range, due mostly due to an innate squishiness that requires too many stat investments in defense to allow for enough damage to be competitive.
In the current metagame, Weaver is taken as a DPS role with some access to CC and water fields, being extremely powerful in any ranged composition that tries to push as little as possible. Weaver is a true 'class cannon' in that it is extremely vulnerable and easy to burst down, punishing even slight mistakes in positioning or use of cooldowns. Tempest is one of the most viable healers, but sees little gameplay. This is mostly thanks to Firebrands providing similar healing output, but also much needed boon support. Since tanky boon and sustain comps are currently weak against Scourge and Revenant, it is hard to justify a spot for a Tempest when you could put in another damage dealer.

My feedback for Elementalist revolves mostly on giving viable ways to sustain in the frontline without giving up all of the damage dealing potential. Retaliation butchers the class at all ranges, but add to that the pressure of melee and the class simply cannot function for extended periods of time.

  1. Practical Changes
  • Re purpose Tempestuous Aria (an extremely unused trait across game modes) to a trait that improves Auras on the Elementalist only, Frost Aura 15% damage reduction, Flame Aura 2burn 2might per proc, Shocking Aura 1.5s Stun, Magnetic Aura slight radius increase. Or instead increasing their duration on the Elementalist by 50%.
  • Increase personal Barrier output for Weaver to allow for a better sustain.
  1. Idealistic Changes
  • Improve sustain on Elementalist in general, especially in a melee setting, either with greater defensive capabilities on the Stances, a way to get improved HP or Toughness, or a general buff to Earth as a self sustaining line that helps it compete with Water.

Revenant

Since its inception, Revenant has been a class that helped define each WvW meta it was involved in. First as a frontline support class with Dwarf elite, then as a power Hammer backline class, then as a condi boon removal melee pusher, and now back again to a power Hammer backline build. The strength of the class for group settings lies in both boon support and raw, easy to access AoE damage. Only using 1 skill, Coalescence of Ruin, a revenant can easily out damage almost every class. Renegade brings a unique support element in the easy Alacrity it can provide, further improving a group's ability to deal damage, and also brings easy to access might stacks. As a class that can self sustain its own boons with pulsing Facets, Herald is the single best class to play alone in a zerg, where you can cover boons for yourself easily and deal high damage without a group around you.
In the current metagame, range is the king for Revenant, able to obliterate a group from a distance with minimal danger to themselves. The Herald healing skill along with an abundance of evades makes the class extremely difficult to focus even for builds with 0 defensive stats allocated. Brutality is a strong trait for removing stability, but should not be enough to stop a group before they make it to you alone. Slowly, the Condition Damage Revenant is making a rise in small man combat thanks almost entirely to Opportune Extraction, which now targets Stability as the first boon to the stolen. A guaranteed Stability removal, coupled with high condition damage, means this is one of the best ways to annihilate a group attempting to melee against you. Ventari Revenant, using either Herald or Renegade, is also extremely powerful and is one of the best healers when it comes to healing multiple parties at once, with a small target area. This requires a lot of micro managing of the tablet, and good positioning to ensure you are not cleaved out whilst going for heals on allies.

My thoughts for Revenant are mixed- I do not want to see power backline butchered, but CoR is simply too powerful and too high burst damage to be ignored. For a skill that cannot be reflected and is almost impossible to see, the damage dealing potential is extreme. Condition based builds are fantastic and a great way to play the game, but Opportune Extraction should certainly not target Stability first, just as it should not have targeted Resistance in the past. Ventari simply needs some better functionality and gameplay to be excellent, as all the tools are in the kit to make an excellent healer.

  1. Practical Changes
  • Lower the raw damage on Coalescence of Ruin- or create intuitive mechanics to allow counterplay such as making it reflectable or slowing down the time between each hit of the attack
  • Change Opportune Extraction boon removal priority away from Stability and Resistance to allow for melee gameplay.
  • When casting Ventari Tablet skills, have each skill also move the tablet to the place you cast the ability, and instead have the 6 skills 'lock' and 'unlock' the tablet, releasing a burst of healing for doing so, where in locked mode it will remain stationary when casting skills.
  • Remove Self Torment from Maniacal Persistence so it does not punish you against other condi Revenants
  1. Idealistic Changes
  • Double both the Stability duration and Stacks for Inspiring Reinforcements, adding another 60 range.
  • Make Versed in Stone's condition damage reduction baseline, the trait now gives an automatic and free Vengeful Hammers when using the Dwarf Elite for 5s

Thief

Thief is viable, but never optimal in a zerging situations. It is strong enough as a melee damage dealer with its Staff Daredevil build, but unfortunately any CC or condition burst utterly destroys this class instantly. The ranged Chokebow and Deadbow builds relying on Choking Gas are strong, but not strong enough to compete with any other DPS class. And since Thief cannot win in raw damage, it has no chance of getting a place in a zerg since it also brings no boon corrupts, meaningful CC or unique utility that other classes cannot also provide. Backline killing builds are excellent, but against a Scourge where the Shades are also going off around the caster it is extremely dangers, and power based Revenants can turn around and butcher the Thief if they are paying attention.
In the current metagame thief has no place, and would need significantly more stability or damage to be viable in the current zerg v zerg meta.

My thoughts for thief are trifold. It needs some form of personal Stability to counter the heavy boonrip meta it is playing against, access to another condition on the Shortbow, and the ability to get through reflect spams with its Rifle.

  1. Practical Changes
  • Make Death's Judgement 'Explode' your marked target rather than shooting a projectile, giving you a way to burst through enemy walls without being able to put out constant pressure and piercing attacks- still being blockable. To compensate for no longer being able to dodge the projectile, have a small black explosion begin on your character, which if you dodge before it finishes can be evaded.
  • In Acrobatics, Assassin's Reward now grants 1 stack of Stability for every 10 attacks Evaded (no ICD). This creates a somewhat meaningful Stability uptime for WvW, but should interfere very little with other game modes or with roaming.
  • If Trick Shot hits 3 foes with its attack (bounces) apply 1 stack of Torment(or bleeding or poison) for 5s to all targets hit.
  1. Idealistic Changes
  • Give 'Haste' Evasion on use as well for 2s as well as current effects. Give thief Evasion whilst standing in Smoke Screen. This Evasion prevents capture point contribution. This allows the niche Medic Thief some great utility options, and also gives DPS dealers a strong survivability option.

Mesmer

Mesmer got a massive shake up to the class with the Feb 6 Patch, and this has opened up some doors to builds that were previously only meme-worthy. Support Chronomancer remains as strong as ever for the unique utility it brings along with the boon support available. Power Mesmer as a DPS option because slightly more viable with the class rework, but has a long way to go before it can become any sort of Meta class. One of the biggest problems was that, at the same time as making a potentially viable build for Power Mesmer to work, they removed the Distortion from Protected Phantasms, a trait that was already weak in the WvW setting became useless.
In the current metagame, support Chronomancer is a powerhouse for bringing CC and support to a group, and is brilliant in moderation for its unique utilities and ability to remove boons and conditions. But variety is extremely lacking, with no viable power or condition build being available. Phantasmal Disenchanter is an incredibly powerful damage dealer and boonrip, and Phantasmal Defender is a high spike skill when landed, but spawns too close to the user to be properly viable in a zerg setting just yet.

My feedback for Mesmer revolves mostly around the Phantasm attacks and their function in WvW. In any setting with multiple enemies and large AoE attacks phantasms and clones become completely useless. This is a problem already acknowledged in PvE, where clones no longer took full damage from AoE attacks, but remains a killer for the class in WvW. Without clones, shatters are weakened and 1/5 skills for every weapon set become redundant.

  1. Practical Changes
  • Give Protected Phantasms the ability to let a clone complete a single attack on creation with distortion, splitting this from PvP.
  • Increase the radius of Mantra of Pain and Mantra of Distraction by 60.
  • Sand Shards Radius increased to 240
  • Mirrored Axes: Sends out a phantom Axe to each Nearby enemy (up to 5)
  1. Idealistic Changes
  • Make Pantasms and Clones take reduced damage from AoE skills so they cannot be killed by cleave, but can still be interrupted.

Warrior

Warrior exists simply to bring Winds of Disenchantment, which took a hefty nerf in the latest patch. In my opinion it now sits exactly where it should, a large area denial skill, but no longer instantly butchers the boons off all inside. The class is actually a fairly strong damage dealer and has many boonrips thanks to various skills from the Spellbreaker kit, and now that Winds is no longer AS MUCH of a game breaker, Warriors have the chance to experiment with further gameplay options and builds. Berserker is a strong DPS option that suffers from the need to be in melee range even more than Spellbreaker, lacking Full Counter to assist in the sustain department. In terms of support Warrior falls far behind any other class, lacking enough healing, condition cleanse or group buffs for moving allies to be meaningful.
In the current metagame, all groups need to take Spellbreakers for Winds of Disenchantment. The area denial creates space for ranged comps or allows melee comps to focus enemies and generate significant downs. Along with this, the Spellbreaker has decent boonrip outside of the winds, and moderate damage if allowed to cleave in melee range. Berserker can be an extremely competitive DPS slot, but with the boon removal meta in full swing there is no way for it to sustain in melee range against Scourges. Outside of Melee range there is no viable option at all for Warrior in a zerg scenario.

My feedback for the Warrior is minimal, I strongly believe the Winds nerf was enough to keep the class in the meta but prevent a single skill from being completely overpowered. Winds is still a powerhouse of a skill.

  1. Practical Changes
  • Increase the 100Blades damage in WvW to the same value as PvE- standing still for that long deserves a reward
  • Increase Bloody Roar to a 15% damage increase
  • Restore Berserk skills to counting as 3 Adrenaline for Cleansing Ire and Berserker's Power. Berserker desperately needs this cleanse.
  1. Idealistic Changes
  • N/A (I think warrior is in a fairly decent place)

Ranger

Rangers have a few decent options available to them in zerg fights, but nothing strong enough to solidify a place in the metagame. Frontline Soulbeast has excellent utility through stances and extremely high damage output- but thanks to a 360 radius on the Stances in unable to be a main stability provider or give out enough meaningful utility. Longbow Soulbeast can demolish backline targets, especially Weavers, with very little risk to themselves. This is countered by the inability to consistantly put out DPS pressure and a lack of utility when at this range. Frontline Druid Healer is another of the best healers for healing large groups, but despite huge healing and might output is extremely vulnerable to conditions with little to no area cleanse and minimal personal cleanse. Condition based frontline builds are somewhat viable, capable of dealing reasonable damage with good utility, but the damage is too low to consider taking one over any other class.
In the current metagame only Druid Healer and Frontline Soulbeast are viable slots to take, but not optimal. Ventari Renegade can do the same job as the Druid but with the addition of Alacrity and a spammable AoE condition cleanse, and Frontline Soulbeast whilst having high enough damage to compete with any class cannot keep themselves alive without extreme party support, relying too heavily on Protection which is easily removed. The buff to Greatsword was a fantastic step in the right direction, taking a laughably underpowered attack and making it decent.

My feedback for Ranger is for Arenanet to continue in the direction of the last balance patch, fixing up pet skills and improving some of the laughable weak skills available. Along with this, additional cleansing power and stance radius would go a long way in giving Ranger a solid place in the meta.

  1. Practical Changes
  • Give Soulbeast the ability to Pet Swap in Beastmode. This will allow them to viably use defensive pets in sticky moments, rather than having to wait 10s to react.
  • Allow stances to share in a 600 radius.
  • Signet of Renewal always transfers your conditions to the pet regardless of range as long as it is alive. The radius vs pets getting random CCed makes it almost impossible to reliably use without pet swapping first, which then locks your pet in to die
  • Evasive Purity also effects nearby allies
  1. Idealistic Changes
  • Give the pet the same treatment as PvE, where it cannot be cleaved out. This will allow many traits to suddenly become viable, along with numerous pet skills that are currently completely abandoned.

Engineer

This patch gave Scrapper a huge buff to personal and group support, turning a class that was almost entirely a damage dealer with minimal group support in to a powerhouse at condition cleansing that can also bring stealth and other utility. However, Scrapper still lacks any significant damage output, and that makes it still a very competitive slot to take since you would sacrifice a lot of damage for the condition conversions. Holosmith is the highest damage dealer in a zerg if it can get in to melee range and stay there- but it cannot. Self sustain is a huge problem for the class, inherantly squishy, vulnerable to conditions and power damage alike. The problem lies in the distribution of traits and utilities- Warrior for example can take damage oriented traits and be carried through by their stances and high base defensive stats- whereas Engineer is required to trait and gear quite defensively to survive, which then cuts their DPS to a level that is simply not viable.
In the current metagame, Scrapper is evolving to become a solid pickup in any comp, able to bring stealth and reveals along with modest damage and great condi to boon conversions that help a lot- albeit in moderation. Holosmith is sitting out of this meta, unable to push without heavy group support. If it can get among the enemy, it becomes extremely powerful, but at range they lack any meaningful DPS option to help with downtime in pushing.

My feedback for Engineer is mostly to give the class a viable ranged option that is not butchered by reflects and enables them to maintain damage outside of pushing, as well as small personal sustain buffs to Holosmith to help carry it through the oppressive damage of Scourge and Revenants.

  1. Practical Changes
  • Double the Barrier on Crystal Configuration: Eclipse so that inside holo form they can sustain through damage.
  • Spectrum Shield: Increase to 6s in WvW and PvE
  • Streamlined Kits - makes attacks unblockable for 3s after entering a kit with a 15s ICD. This promotes gameplay moving in and out of the kit, and also enables Mortar Kit or Grenade kit to land quick attacks from range before moving back to other weapon skills
  • Increase Grenade Kit range back to 1200 when traited.
  1. Idealistic Changes
  • Hard Light Arena also gives Stability.

Conclusion

Well, thats about all I have for this current Metagame. This list is compiled of my own reaction, results of extensive testing, feedback from both the Metabattle discord, website comments, official Forum class sections, WvW section and the official subReddit. Please add in your own feedback. My personal opinion on this metagame is that it is actually quite enjoyable- but could do with allowing more options for engaging at melee (the dream?). Currently, some boon rips and conversions are a huge problem for melee gameplay, and would love to see some sort of %dmg reducing infusion to help combat the power creep, but don't believe this is in itself a strong solution.

Please let me know anything I have missed, and lets start a good discussion that can HOPEFULLY be used in future balancing, or at least raise some questions that the devs can answer for us :)

Comments

  • Pretty good analysis. I disagree with some of your solutions for the problems, but then everyone has differing views on that (I think eles should just play frontline tempest rather than bother with staff backline damage, which Rev and Scourge already fill)

  • arenta.2953arenta.2953 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2018

    nice review. though i do think Deadeye could use a pulsing stability on its rifle Kneel (similar to engineer's flamethrower trait that pulses stab and might)

    and it would be nice if its auto attack had pierce.(this would fix its dps issue in zergs as single target dmg is really bad for zergs)

  • Thanks for putting this up ranger!!

  • Rampage.7145Rampage.7145 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2018

    @Reverence.6915 said:
    Pretty good analysis. I disagree with some of your solutions for the problems, but then everyone has differing views on that (I think eles should just play frontline tempest rather than bother with staff backline damage, which Rev and Scourge already fill)

    LOL elementalist does at least x2 more damage than rev and necro buddy, and it does not suffer from the downsides of this 2 classes (rev relies heavy on projectiles, necro has a lot downtime between bombs) also is the only ranged class than can reliably AOE immob on demand which is extremly strong when resistance is a dead boon as it is, so yeah no, FB is too much of a good healer not to mention it also gives a ton of stab and millions of boons, elementalist just can't compete in this department.

    OP's analysis is actually correct for every class, agree with him 100%

  • A thorough and much appreciated analysis, but I have to disagree with much of what you say. All of your suggestions ask ArenaNet to turn up the volume, and you don't acknowledge any skills or gameplay aspects that need to be dialed back.

    Take the Firebrand for example: I agree that Guardian (in the form of Firebrand) is the strongest and most versatile class, so I don't follow your reasoning on calling for the removal cast time on F-skills.

    The same goes for the rest of your suggestions - they're just more, more, more, when there's already enough powercreep and imbalance in this game.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2018

    @Swordfish.8512 said:

    Thief

    1. Practical Changes
    • Make Death's Judgement 'Explode' your marked target rather than shooting a projectile, giving you a way to burst through enemy walls without being able to put out constant pressure and piercing attacks- still being blockable. To compensate for no longer being able to dodge the projectile, have a small black explosion begin on your character, which if you dodge before it finishes can be evaded.

    if this will change it to a cast ability instead of a projectile i am fine with this change - if the delay instead of projectile flytime is not too great. tho could just extend laser a little instead of two different animations chained that causes damage at the end of the second one. doubt you would see a small black animation in a zergfight anyway :D

    with last patch you can keep up mark with max malice all time and adding your suggestion, i could then pretty much spamm DJ on my selected target. this way i could reliable down single selected opponents while pirate shipping. with this i maybe would consider fighting with my deadeye in groups larger then solo/duo again.

    read this, become a better player now.

  • Rampage.7145Rampage.7145 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2018

    @ClaraFee.2579 said:
    A thorough and much appreciated analysis, but I have to disagree with much of what you say. All of your suggestions ask ArenaNet to turn up the volume, and you don't acknowledge any skills or gameplay aspects that need to be dialed back.

    Take the Firebrand for example: I agree that Guardian (in the form of Firebrand) is the strongest and most versatile class, so I don't follow your reasoning on calling for the removal cast time on F-skills.

    The same goes for the rest of your suggestions - they're just more, more, more, when there's already enough powercreep and imbalance in this game.

    They could always tune down multipliers to balance the raw class power/support effectivness, yet cast time on tomes is a big QoL problem for the FB gameplay that needs to be adressed ASAP (It should have never been like that honestly, it is just bad design), big strenght of this game generaly speaking comparing to other similar MMOs is the combat system and how fluid it is, and having a clunky class like firebrand goes against this completelly it just feels out of place in this game. Powercreep is all about damage multipliers, but you have to realize they just want to keep PVE raiders happy, hence why damage in PvP is so kitten high, but balancing that would either require to re balance raids completelly and a full rework of PVE as a whole or just split every skill in the game for PVE/PVP/WvW which will be a ton of work for the balance team and i dont see that happening, so get used to a WvW where positioning is fundamanetal and u will get deleted for a minimum mistake, hell, essentially you have to play every class like it was a glass thief!

  • Zlater.6789Zlater.6789 Member ✭✭✭

    Oh these proposed changes are amazing, and I don't even WvW. I would desperately love to see it made possible for soul beasts to be able to freely swap pets in beastmode especially. The current setup makes it almost pointless to use more than a single pet in any encounter.

  • This was a good read from your perspective, but I can't agree with any of it.
    Let me explain. You start out by talking about power keep and how some classes haven't been able to keep up, and then you go into how this or that needs to be added to each profession. I thought from the opening statement this post was going to be how each profession can be brought back in line and reduce the power creep, but sadly it wasn't. This was the same thing of buff this and buff that, which just adds to the power/condi creep.

    Why not look at it from the standpoint this profession seems to be good at a base level (or under tuned in this area) and ask why does it seem this way. Then look at what other professions seem to over shadow the under tuned profession, and see if there is a way to bring those professions back in line without destroying the concept. So how does one bring the OP professions in line with the baseline profession, while keeping them unique.

    So take every example you have for each profession being under powered and reverse it. Now that would be an idea I can get behind.

    An example I would use is the Revenant Brutality trait - it does one thing. It strips Stability. However you have to meet the required condition of having swiftness for it to work. You say that it is easy for a Rev to get swiftness in a group, X profession just kitten it out. Well right there is an example of something that is OP. I think boons are nice thing to have, but a constant 25 stacks is stupid. Access to boons is way to easy for some professions - just trait this way and boom 25 stacks for no real effort. Same thing goes for the traits that give %dmg or 25-33% movement speed or the O'kitten trait that heals instantly or make you invulnerable - these traits shouldn't exist. As far as I am considered they are poor efforts at a filler traits.

    Anet needs to look at each profession without traits and see how they fair against each other - then take the traits that give multiple things and separate all of those out into single traits with give small amount of flavor or require some type of action to happen for you to get a small amount of x or y, but not x and y.

    The same thing can be said for the PvE side, give mobs limited access to boons, conditions and corruptions so all of the same skills and traits can be used in pve game play also.

  • @Rampage.7145 said:

    @Reverence.6915 said:
    Pretty good analysis. I disagree with some of your solutions for the problems, but then everyone has differing views on that (I think eles should just play frontline tempest rather than bother with staff backline damage, which Rev and Scourge already fill)

    LOL elementalist does at least x2 more damage than rev and necro buddy, and it does not suffer from the downsides of this 2 classes (rev relies heavy on projectiles, necro has a lot downtime between bombs) also is the only ranged class than can reliably AOE immob on demand which is extremly strong when resistance is a dead boon as it is, so yeah no, FB is too much of a good healer not to mention it also gives a ton of stab and millions of boons, elementalist just can't compete in this department.

    OP's analysis is actually correct for every class, agree with him 100%

    Weaver is high risk, high reward.. its incredibly easy to kill with a simple corrupt or a good CoR from a rev, yes the damage it does is incredibly goood but its incredibly easy to kill

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2018

    @Rasp Sabreblade.5421 said:
    This was a good read from your perspective, but I can't agree with any of it.
    Let me explain. You start out by talking about power keep and how some classes haven't been able to keep up, and then you go into how this or that needs to be added to each profession. I thought from the opening statement this post was going to be how each profession can be brought back in line and reduce the power creep, but sadly it wasn't. This was the same thing of buff this and buff that, which just adds to the power/condi creep.

    Why not look at it from the standpoint this profession seems to be good at a base level (or under tuned in this area) and ask why does it seem this way. Then look at what other professions seem to over shadow the under tuned profession, and see if there is a way to bring those professions back in line without destroying the concept. So how does one bring the OP professions in line with the baseline profession, while keeping them unique.

    So take every example you have for each profession being under powered and reverse it. Now that would be an idea I can get behind.

    An example I would use is the Revenant Brutality trait - it does one thing. It strips Stability. However you have to meet the required condition of having swiftness for it to work. You say that it is easy for a Rev to get swiftness in a group, X profession just kitten it out. Well right there is an example of something that is OP. I think boons are nice thing to have, but a constant 25 stacks is stupid. Access to boons is way to easy for some professions - just trait this way and boom 25 stacks for no real effort. Same thing goes for the traits that give %dmg or 25-33% movement speed or the O'kitten trait that heals instantly or make you invulnerable - these traits shouldn't exist. As far as I am considered they are poor efforts at a filler traits.

    Anet needs to look at each profession without traits and see how they fair against each other - then take the traits that give multiple things and separate all of those out into single traits with give small amount of flavor or require some type of action to happen for you to get a small amount of x or y, but not x and y.

    The same thing can be said for the PvE side, give mobs limited access to boons, conditions and corruptions so all of the same skills and traits can be used in pve game play also.

    the proposed changes are not about combat design but about balance. the combat design is a completly different topic but many seem to confuse it with balance. power creep affects mainly combat desgin as with it we got more extreme builds, very powerful offensive as well as very powerful defensive tools - but most classes got some of these. for balance on the other hand it is only important how strong or usefull a class is in relation to other classes.

    read this, become a better player now.

  • Rampage.7145Rampage.7145 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2018

    @Mini Crinny.6190 said:

    @Rampage.7145 said:

    @Reverence.6915 said:
    Pretty good analysis. I disagree with some of your solutions for the problems, but then everyone has differing views on that (I think eles should just play frontline tempest rather than bother with staff backline damage, which Rev and Scourge already fill)

    LOL elementalist does at least x2 more damage than rev and necro buddy, and it does not suffer from the downsides of this 2 classes (rev relies heavy on projectiles, necro has a lot downtime between bombs) also is the only ranged class than can reliably AOE immob on demand which is extremly strong when resistance is a dead boon as it is, so yeah no, FB is too much of a good healer not to mention it also gives a ton of stab and millions of boons, elementalist just can't compete in this department.

    OP's analysis is actually correct for every class, agree with him 100%

    Weaver is high risk, high reward.. its incredibly easy to kill with a simple corrupt or a good CoR from a rev, yes the damage it does is incredibly goood but its incredibly easy to kill

    Elementalist does have the most forgiving down state in the game chances are you will rally if you landed good damage unless the fight is a total loss in which case this is irrelevant anyway, i also disagree with the first part: ¨it is incredibly hard to kill with a a good corrupt¨, that is not a thing, and to actually kill someome wiht a good CoR u need to run full glass in, which makes the rev the most dangerous glass cannon class to play since if you die you will not have downstate mistform to rally yourself with. Elementalist is actually superior to rev and necro on what they do which is area denial bombs, big consistent localized AOE DPS, while keeping decent survivability as long they know how to play.

  • This is a good write up, in particular I like the Revenant and Scourge sections. As always your view of the balance of the game is reasonable and well-developed. I would really like to see stability not corrupting into immobilize. I would also really like to see a change in functionality to Rev hammer in very large scale fights, it'd be really cool to see some balance changes that promote the viability of melee gameplay at large numbers such as 75v75.

  • Great post!. For warrior i must say one of the worst reasons there is so little build diversity is just due to the Discipline and Defense trait lines. You absolutely cannot call yourself a warrior in WvW without deft hands, 25% move speed and immob break, Destruction of the empowered, adrenal health, endure pain etc. Some of these have to become baseline. And as you said toughness is barely useful nowadays, but i remember a time where running double endure pain was considered a sign of lack of skill but today i dont see a warrior build without it. We want toughness to be relevant again but we dont want boonshare and tankiness to make a comeback.
    The changes you really require on warrior are weapon buffs as you mentioned about great sword. Some other changes i suggest are to main hand sword (dps increase), warhorn buff, shout buffs which were all nerfed one day all together when shoutbow pvp warrior was the culprit back then.
    For condi cleanse on warriors we simply need more, we dont just want cleansing ire to be relevant again, we want to be able to have build diversity and cleansing ire was one unmovable giant for so long.
    Finally lemongrass and all the other foods which were the bread and butter of wvw even when condis were not that powerful. They all got a huge 50% decrease in effectiveness while all condis were reworked to stack (fire, bleeding, confusion etc) all in the same update. and expertise shortly followed.

  • @Rampage.7145 said:

    @Mini Crinny.6190 said:

    @Rampage.7145 said:

    @Reverence.6915 said:
    Pretty good analysis. I disagree with some of your solutions for the problems, but then everyone has differing views on that (I think eles should just play frontline tempest rather than bother with staff backline damage, which Rev and Scourge already fill)

    LOL elementalist does at least x2 more damage than rev and necro buddy, and it does not suffer from the downsides of this 2 classes (rev relies heavy on projectiles, necro has a lot downtime between bombs) also is the only ranged class than can reliably AOE immob on demand which is extremly strong when resistance is a dead boon as it is, so yeah no, FB is too much of a good healer not to mention it also gives a ton of stab and millions of boons, elementalist just can't compete in this department.

    OP's analysis is actually correct for every class, agree with him 100%

    Weaver is high risk, high reward.. its incredibly easy to kill with a simple corrupt or a good CoR from a rev, yes the damage it does is incredibly goood but its incredibly easy to kill

    Elementalist does have the most forgiving down state in the game chances are you will rally if you landed good damage unless the fight is a total loss in which case this is irrelevant anyway, i also disagree with the first part: ¨it is incredibly hard to kill with a a good corrupt¨, that is not a thing, and to actually kill someome wiht a good CoR u need to run full glass in, which makes the rev the most dangerous glass cannon class to play since if you die you will not have downstate mistform to rally yourself with. Elementalist is actually superior to rev and necro on what they do which is area denial bombs, big consistent localized AOE DPS, while keeping decent survivability as long they know how to play.

    Sadly people aren't bringing Revs and Necros over Eles because they provide damage. They're bringing Revs and Necros because they provide damage AND support (Pulsing boons on herald, alacrity on renagade, and barrier on Necro). Elementalist has the option of either damage OR support, but not both. Elementalist is undeniably a powerful class but it doesn't provide anything worthwhile to support the front, and lets face it... the only reason Ele downstate works is due to the face that you can hide behind your frontline. No support to frontline = no frontline and no frontline means unless you can mist all the way back into a tower every time you're probably going to die to a ranged CoR targeting you anyway.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2018

    Ive seen an increase of condi bunker scourges and more minitrels firebrands, that is all that larger groups to zergs are...

    who has more of those has more chances of wining... just that.

  • Rampage.7145Rampage.7145 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2018

    @YTKafka.4681 said:

    @Rampage.7145 said:

    @Mini Crinny.6190 said:

    @Rampage.7145 said:

    @Reverence.6915 said:
    Pretty good analysis. I disagree with some of your solutions for the problems, but then everyone has differing views on that (I think eles should just play frontline tempest rather than bother with staff backline damage, which Rev and Scourge already fill)

    LOL elementalist does at least x2 more damage than rev and necro buddy, and it does not suffer from the downsides of this 2 classes (rev relies heavy on projectiles, necro has a lot downtime between bombs) also is the only ranged class than can reliably AOE immob on demand which is extremly strong when resistance is a dead boon as it is, so yeah no, FB is too much of a good healer not to mention it also gives a ton of stab and millions of boons, elementalist just can't compete in this department.

    OP's analysis is actually correct for every class, agree with him 100%

    Weaver is high risk, high reward.. its incredibly easy to kill with a simple corrupt or a good CoR from a rev, yes the damage it does is incredibly goood but its incredibly easy to kill

    Elementalist does have the most forgiving down state in the game chances are you will rally if you landed good damage unless the fight is a total loss in which case this is irrelevant anyway, i also disagree with the first part: ¨it is incredibly hard to kill with a a good corrupt¨, that is not a thing, and to actually kill someome wiht a good CoR u need to run full glass in, which makes the rev the most dangerous glass cannon class to play since if you die you will not have downstate mistform to rally yourself with. Elementalist is actually superior to rev and necro on what they do which is area denial bombs, big consistent localized AOE DPS, while keeping decent survivability as long they know how to play.

    Sadly people aren't bringing Revs and Necros over Eles because they provide damage. They're bringing Revs and Necros because they provide damage AND support (Pulsing boons on herald, alacrity on renagade, and barrier on Necro). Elementalist has the option of either damage OR support, but not both. Elementalist is undeniably a powerful class but it doesn't provide anything worthwhile to support the front, and lets face it... the only reason Ele downstate works is due to the face that you can hide behind your frontline. No support to frontline = no frontline and no frontline means unless you can mist all the way back into a tower every time you're probably going to die to a ranged CoR targeting you anyway.

    To be fair tho only reasson u bring scourges is because its easy to play same for Rev compared to ele, the skill cap necesary to play those classes is way lower hence more people can play those effectivelly on a zerg, not everyone is good enough to play ele on a zer or to roam as a thief or a glass mesmer, some classes are just easier than others this is normal on any game. Ele requires a lot of micro managment of multiple cooldowns to be played effectivelly for example, scourge u basically faceroll your face against your keyboard and rev u only worry about landing 2 or 3 skills and maybe a popping boons that require u to press 3 or so keys. It all comes to the skillcap of certain specs. I am pretty sure if you put 75 of the best gankers in the game playing nothing but thieves, rangers, mesmer and eles they would smoke a full blob full of scourges anyday. this dosnt mean gank is the new meta comp tho, obvioulsy not, just that some specs are only effective played by the right people that due their difficulty, that is it, and for balance u take into consideration the people who play those specs the best not the average players.

  • @Rampage.7145 said:
    LOL elementalist does at least x2 more damage than rev

    multiple 7-10k ham 2 and 3 does not agree

  • Rod.6581Rod.6581 Member ✭✭

    @Raymond Lukes.6305 @McKenna Berdrow.2759

    Just gonna tag you to read this :P

  • expandas.7051expandas.7051 Member ✭✭
    edited February 13, 2018

    Convenient and informative, thanks for putting this together. With the changes to WoD, Alacrity, and Resistance, it seems boon reapplication is more important than ever. I agree that shifting away from a Guardian-centric meta will require better access to group stability on other professions. To some degree those skills already exist but lack the radius values that would make them viable for the average player.

  • Samug.6512Samug.6512 Member ✭✭✭

    I think Scrapper's damage is fine. It should get even more barrier from traits, to make it a tank, not a Holosmith variation.

    I still think replacing superspeed with barrier could be a neat idea - sharing barrier on leap, regen hp when barrier is on, only change Final Salvo to 'you and the gyro gain barrier and stability when using gyro skill'.

    [NUKE]

  • Kraitan.8476Kraitan.8476 Member ✭✭✭

    Nice post!

  • Gallant Pigeon.5807Gallant Pigeon.5807 Member
    edited February 13, 2018

    Not going to lie. The thief suggestions are pretty bad, and would likely causes more issues than they solve. The only one I short of liked is the SB suggestion with torment (poison would be too OP). I main thief and almost exclusively play WvW. Here are my suggestions:

    Deadeye:

    • Rifle is meant to be a ranged weapon. Keep death's judgement as is and make it piercing, this solves the issue of hitting your mark in a crowd. Bonus damage still only applies to marked target.

    • Reflects are definitely somewhat of an issue (i.e. they are too easy to access), but they are the intended range counterplay to ranged weapons. As such unblockable has to be moderated. My suggestion: Get rid of renewing gaze trait which is practically useless; it also redundant considering other regen sources. Change it to "one shot, one kill". Your next attack is unblockablable after gaining full malice.

    • "Shadow Flare" The shadow swap rollover skill needs to linger for a couple of seconds after the flare has finished its ticks. Otherwise it is bad as both an offensive and defensive skill (you waste damage ticks either attacking or porting away).

    • "Shadow Gust" Needs to stop you autoattacking else you get insta revealed in melee.

    • "One in the Chamber" should be the only trait that affects cantrips. "Maleficent Seven" seperated from "Mercy" and "Malicious Restoration".

    • "Mercy" needs to be separated from "Maleficent Seven" for balance reasons (see above). Now instantly restores 3 initiative. Gain an additional 4 initiative when at full malice. CD reduced to 24 seconds (seen as getting the full mark bonus is counter to removing your mark).

    • "Malicious Restoration" needs to be separated from "Maleficent Seven" for balance reasons (see above). Instantly clear 2 conditions. Gain an additional 4 cleanses, and additional healing when at full malice. CD reduced to 24 seconds. (CD reduction given that 90% time you want to remove condis or heal, not both).

    • "Deadeye's mark" Seperate the damage bonus from malice. When you gain malice, you gain 3% damage (up to the 15% / 21% max). You no longer lose the damage modifiers when casting "Deadye's mark". Instead you will lose the damage modifiers when you choose a different mark target. Your malice will always reset to 0 when you cast "Deadeye's mark". This fixes issues casued by the recent changes to "Deadeye's mark", which currently retains malice when choosing the same target.

    • "Maleficent Seven". Very bad as currently is for any non PvE play. Actually slows down time from 0 -> max malice for the boons, a very conditional 6% damage buff and a miserly small and slow heal. I would change it such that either (in order of preference):

      • the base damage of malice is modified from 3% to 4% when at maximum malice, you get max 7 malice, you get the old heal.
        This also has the nice affect of making deadeye the goto DPS for thief. I've always seen daredevil as the more duellist / mobility / staff cleave theme.

      • you get max 7 malice, you get the old heal, remove all non damaging conditions.

      • you get max 7 malice, you get the an increased heal.
        Gettting to max malice under this trait should like a reward for the player. One of deadeye's biggest problems is that malice may as well not exist outside of the boons + "Deaths judgement" damage boost.
    • More about global balance, but can we get skills which actually hit at their marked distances (1750 range longbow ranger, cough).

    Core thief:

    • "Assassin's Reward" needs to change. No one in PvE, PvP or WvW uses it. The healing is poor, "Upper Hand" is objectively a better skill to take if you need defensive Acro skills. It needs to be reworked to encourage skillful play, rather than spam. My suggestion: Dealing damage to an opponent grants a buff called "Assassin's Persistance" for 2 seconds. No ICD. skills cost 1 less initiative when under this buff. This is intended to be an offensive alternative to "Upper Hand", whilst reducing reliance on the trickery line for sustain.

    • "Upper Hand" should get a heal instead of regen. This trait is if anything detrimental when fighting condi classes. Also see to much regen overlap with "Pain Response", "Perfectionist" and "Shadow protector".

    • "Sundering Shade" Doesn't compete with "Practiced Tolerance" on power builds. Change it to 6 stacks for 7 seconds, so you at least get a chance to hit 12 stacks.

    • "Dagger Storm" Now breaks stun on cast.

    • "Scorpion Wire" Reduce range to 900 (i.e. where it will actually will hit a moving target). Reduce CD to 12 seconds.

  • Kovu.7560Kovu.7560 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swordfish.8512 said:

    Ranger

    Idealistic Changes
    * Give the pet the same treatment as PvE, where it cannot be cleaved out. This will allow many traits to suddenly become viable, along with numerous pet skills that are currently completely abandoned.

    Please.
    Yes please this.
    God yes.

    ~ Kovu

    Fort Aspenwood,
    Ranger, Necromancer.

  • Chaba.5410Chaba.5410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kovu.7560 said:

    @Swordfish.8512 said:

    Ranger

    Idealistic Changes
    * Give the pet the same treatment as PvE, where it cannot be cleaved out. This will allow many traits to suddenly become viable, along with numerous pet skills that are currently completely abandoned.

    Please.
    Yes please this.
    God yes.

    ~ Kovu

    And engineer turrets and gyros. Hurr hurr.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I read

    "Without the support provided by the Firebrands, or once by the core Guardians, many classes would struggle to operate at all in WvW zerg gameplay. I remain firm in the belief that a metagame revolving around Guardian gameplay is a fun and stable place for the game mode- the only legitimate way to change this would be to add more stability options to other classes, as nerfing the Guardian extremely would see close quarters gameplay flounder. "

    Then after I'd composed myself some 15 minutes later I decided to look at the changes proposed and don't agree with anything that is anything less than a huge nerf bat to everything equally. The game needs to take a damage hit, a sustain hit and increased cool downs. Remember when water fields mattered? Remember when a team knowing their combos vs a team that didn't would wipe the floor every single time? Remember when cool down mattered?

    The game needs it's pace slowing a bit, this doesn't mean unkillable bunkers it means slowing it down so you have more than 1/4s before 5 CoR hit you and you're dead followed by a shade party on you.

    FB is NOT fine, it is every bit as broken as scourge and the worst part is they're all fundamentally broken from the base concept of the elites.

    I stand with Mo.

  • Kovu.7560Kovu.7560 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @Kovu.7560 said:

    @Swordfish.8512 said:

    Ranger

    Idealistic Changes
    * Give the pet the same treatment as PvE, where it cannot be cleaved out. This will allow many traits to suddenly become viable, along with numerous pet skills that are currently completely abandoned.

    Please.
    Yes please this.
    God yes.

    ~ Kovu

    And engineer turrets and gyros. Hurr hurr.

    Eh. Those are a little different. Those aren't a forced mechanic that has heavy synergy with the profession's weapon skills, stats and both passive and active traits out of the box. Not to mention ranger weapons have the lowest coefficients in the game due to them being "balanced" with pet damage. (Seriously, show me a pet that can contribute meaningful damage to a zerg fight, let alone not get one-pushed.)
    Turrets and gyros are optional utilities that have a cooldown -- not unlike ranger spirits, necro minions or (kek) spirit weapons. Pets are uniquely tied to the basic operation of the profession.

    ~ Kovu

    Fort Aspenwood,
    Ranger, Necromancer.

  • Klypto.1703Klypto.1703 Member ✭✭✭

    Biggest thing they need to do is rework renegade and tone down this 1 shot mesmer kitten.

  • "Rangers have a few decent options available to them in zerg fights, but nothing strong enough to solidify a place in the metagame"

    Given the vast amount of whining going on about Scourges, I'd say Rangers should be next to top priority (or even top priority ahead of Firebrand) in the Meta game due to how easily they dispose of Scourges. Given Scourges can make short work of Firebrands, common sense would dictate you'd want a class in there to take care of the one class that gives the Firebrands the most grief.

  • Seffen.2875Seffen.2875 Member ✭✭✭

    I had a Long thought about whether i think i should comment or not. I don't want to be rude, but i don't think that i am not able to Sound so. I'll just be straight Forward and hope you can see some Points i am trying to make.

    I think you have a lot of right Points. But almost as many wrong Points.

    1. Guardian is right now in a pretty bad spot. In bigger Zergs it may not look like it but he really is. Guardian is right now the most boring class accesible. and on its own the most useless. A ministrel guard in zerg without a !Scourge! to Support him will melt within seconds. And there is pretty much nothing you can do.
      (A nice example: We fought AMP and they had like 70 % of the Zerg Scourges. Yes, you can stand up to that quite some time. But there is a Point in fight when the Guardian just cannot stand up with boons anymore. And then you will be just wiped)
      The firebrand is okish. But there is a General reason why most People start to Abandon it in public zergs.
      What can be done? Almost nothing. Because it is no Problem of the guard itself. There are some traits that can be changed. (the Mantra trait eg.) And some other abilities should be brought in line. (the healing Mantras last cast) but all in all the firebrand is fair. but that is right now not enough.

    2. The necromancer has always been fair. A good powerhouse but as soon as you came Close he was dead. Right now there are several things that make him too strong. one is the fact that the effects work with both the shade and himself. Make it either or. Scourge is bringing more consistency in condition removal to the table than firebrand. And barrier. At almost no cost. the offensive part is still as strong. Make him either or. Maybe tune down the base stats of the abilites and pump up the scaling. So that he only can be really strong in one part of this and only if he invests all he got.

    3. the warrior is in a super bad spot. Especially when talking about diversity. In pvp and wvw the dome and its interactions are still just too good. And they did not Change anything about this. i wont go deeper since i am fed up with discussing this.

    All in all you ideas on how to buff/nerf the specs are pretty bad and short sighted. But this was explained earlier and i won't write it again. buffing things outside the powercreep won't Change the powercreep but in the worst case bring up some new.
    the tomes cast time is really important. Otherwise the tomes would be too strong. This way they would be in line. If you could protect them easily. Which you can't.

  • Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2018

    Holosmith is super strong now with massive/unique party/zerg support with decent damage, no changes needed. I wont go deeper into detail because there's something that would get nerfed if anet knew about it (which OP obviously overlooked). Overall the patch gave holosmith so many tools to battle conditions while nerfing damage/scourge which gave engis more room by not being hardcountered by condispam anymore.

    And lol, spectrum shield is already so good, if dwarf rev comes back into meta, holo would never die. We're kinda at the verge of it happening also, melee rev doesnt have that much lower damage than glint/shiro hammer rev due to higher reach and scourges not buttonsmashing your resi away 100% time.

    Holo is definitely pinnacle of blob/guild play now. Requires so much skill, intuition, experience and adaptibility compared to firebrand/scourge/spellbreaker due to you always being on the edge. Truly a image of high risk, high reward gameplay that isnt total buttonsmashing.

    I cant see scrapper being viable outside very organised play with the stealth though, the damage is so terrible after all the nerfs.

    Overall issue with thieves and rangers are that they dont have good weaponsets for zerging with some kind of long range AoE burst or AoE field with relatively fast cast time. Whats the point of having a class that can only single target with barely any support or isn't capable of bursting in a bomb meta?

    Ri Ba - WvW Commander/scout/roamer
    Piken link/alt somewhere
    Diamond Legend
    ~On a break, playerbase like zombies these days~

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