Anet why are you so fixed on making power reaper a thing in Raids? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Anet why are you so fixed on making power reaper a thing in Raids?

Crinn.7864Crinn.7864 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited February 14, 2018 in Necromancer

Both this recent patch and the November patch both brought changes that where clearly intended to improve power reaper in PvE formats, with the side effect of destroying Reaper's sustain in PvP.

So I ask: Why didn't you just buff condi reaper instead?

If you had taken reaper has it existed before the November patch and just added 2 seconds of bleed duration to Deathly Chill, Reaper would have had been a competitive DPS in any fight, and would have been outright optimal anywhere than epidemic or ice bow could have been put to use. But instead of doing that simple change you instead engaged in trying to make power reaper, a build totally unsuited for pve, a thing in pve, and in the process absolutely wrecked reaper's PvP and WvW performance. 5 months ago Reaper was meta in both sPvP and WvW, and only struggled in PvE. Now Reaper is massively outclassed in sPvP and WvW, while still being outclassed in PvE. The past two patches have traded our PvP and WvW viability for what? 7k DPS on a golem?

Besides even ignoring the obvious DPS gap between condi reaper and power reaper, condi reaper is still far better equipped for raids than power reaper is. Unlike condi reaper, power reaper cannot make use of epidemic nor can it make use of ice bow, while condi reaper makes gains much from both of those. Epidemic is our unique group utility, it is what sets us apart from other DPS options, promoting a build that cannot use it is doing us necros a great disservice. Moreover Power Reaper is far less suited for PvE than Condi Reaper at the rotational and mechanical level. Power Reaper's PvE rotation is literally just spam gravedigger on cooldown, while condi reaper enjoys a complex but manageable roation. If Power Reaper where to be made into a viable PvE DPS, it would have to be totally overhauled so that it used more than 2 buttons, as there would be a riot from the other classes if a class was doing top level DPS with 2 buttons, never mind the native survivability advantage that necro enjoys over other classes in PvE.

So I ask again: Why Anet did you destroy Reaper's PvP capabilities in the name of trying to make power Reaper a thing in PvE, when making condi reaper a thing in PvE would have been trivially easy and would not have required sacrificing our PvP and WvW viability

Sanity is for the weak minded
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Comments

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2018

    To be honest, there were a few way to make reaper a thing in raid. Staying faithfull to condition like you suggest was one way to keep strengthen him there and build himself a stable niche. The forum also suggested more original way to do so, with solutions like giving core necromancer a toughness unique debuff which would have resulted in a not so great spec but still welcome in raids.

    In regard of why they acted like they did, I think there might be 3 possible reasons:

    • First, and probably the least likely, they gave up to the pressure of reddit and the forum asking for "power reaper".
    • Second, they wanted to open up some room for their new e-spec, making it attractive to their customers.
    • Third, they wanted to use power and condi as a way to differentiate the 2 e-specs which would have ended up very similar otherwise.

    Thougth, I don't think they did this to make power reaper viable in PvE, like you said power reaper didn't change it's gameplay in PvE from before the change and after the change. It's just spamcopter gravedigger like it was before. The changes could be seen as PvP change in order to make the necromancer a spec which depend less on gravedigger to land a deadly burst allowing one to effectively use down your ennemies via powerfull shroud power skills and finish them with gravedigger.

    The necromancer in PvE, is dependent of epidemic . Epidemic is the reason condi reaper was a thing. It give an interesting extra to a balanced dps which make condimancer very niche but welcome in a few raid paths. Any power spec lack this "extra", simply because core necromancer have nothing interesting to give to a power spec. And as long as this is the case power spec will just be anecdotic build that are used by frustrated players, even if they were given more dps than they have now.

    Eddit: Now, if we really ponder on it, a toughness debufff would have been a good thing from a necromancer point of view. However, if we look at the game as a whole, I now tend to think that "unique" things are not that healthy for the game.

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Well. I thinks its nice, being able to play power reaper in raids. Because you know, its intended to be a power class.
    And for pvp/ wvw roaming it rlly needed the dmg buffs to keep up with the power creep thats going on.

    The problem is: you still wont be able to kill any firebrand with it, cause he will just heal back up. And kill you by passivly adding burning onto you.

    Same goes for good elementalist players.
    Good ranger players
    Good thiefs ( well you wont even hit them once)
    Good mesmers (same as thief)
    Good revenants..........

    Well, i think you will only win like 30% of the fights.
    But against equally skilled players with other professions you will loose more often.

    But the thing is, thats not anything new. Its the same as it was before the changes

  • Spot on crinn. Ill just say what i usually do to anet which is just leave us alone. Their tinkerings are pithweak. Insert the revert - shroud degen, sos, vp. Thats what we want a flippin rollback. Leave the added dmg u gave us and revert the changes made from then on. Thats all. Then clear off.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2018

    While I do think reaper needed more power reaper being condition is the exact thing people freaking hated about it. People often cried in pvp when they saw a condition reaper because at the time condition reaper was not easy to kill and chill application was more than plentiful. It was a real pain in the but to deal with. So any time condition is added to reaper people will cry. Its too tanky and does too much damage. It has 2 hp bars. Its not fair. It needs a nerf.
    Which inturn results in a classic necro pvp and pve nerf at the same time.

    Bottom line is people hate condi reaper. They dont like fighting it they dont like it sitting on a point with a full bar of shroud despite the fact it has not defensive tools.

    Honestly I was really loving the idea of reaper having a unique chill condition but people cried about that too. It wont stack, its does not work with break bars (an easy fix anet could have made.) and it could have easily made up for damage when tweaked down the line.

    Overall the community be it the necro players or not often cause poor choices for the necro overall. Necromancer is a very unique profession that has the power to make other boon dripping professions fall to their knees an people dont like it.

    I do agree that while i do enjoy power reaper I dislike not being able to make use of shroud because simply landing grave digger under 50% just deals better damage but at the same time. Asking for a change is just asking them to nerf gravedigger without getting any compensation anywhere else. Necro is really in an odd spot right now 100%.

  • Crinn.7864Crinn.7864 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2018

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    Bottom line is people hate condi reaper. They dont like fighting it they dont like it sitting on a point with a full bar of shroud despite the fact it has not defensive tools.

    I am not talking about the Q2 2016 condi reaper nerfs. Also Condi Reaper fell out of the solo queue PvP meta in Q1 2017 and fell out of the tournament meta in Q3 2017. Power Reaper was part of the solo queue PvP meta for all of 2017 prior to PoF, and even with PoF was viable up until the November 2017 patch.

    To be clear this thread is exclusively about the November 2017 changes to reaper shroud, and the February 2018 rework of vampiric presence. Both changes where seemingly designed to improve power reaper's raid DPS at the expense of survivability, and that survivability loss ended up completely destroying Reaper's last grip on viability in PvP given that Reaper was already struggling in a Scourge dominated meta.

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    I do agree that while i do enjoy power reaper I dislike not being able to make use of shroud because simply landing grave digger under 50% just deals better damage but at the same time. Asking for a change is just asking them to nerf gravedigger without getting any compensation anywhere else. Necro is really in an odd spot right now 100%.

    I do not understand where you got the idea that I want Gravedigger nerfed. I want Reaper's survivability returned to a level that will allow us to hold our own again. Currently a Reaper running a Paladin's Amulet and Soldier Runes is significantly squishier than the marauder builds of other classes.

    You cannot make a low mobility melee class function as a glass cannon in PvP formats, yet ArenaNet has spent the past few patches trying to turn Reaper into exactly that.

    Sanity is for the weak minded
    YouTube

  • Lahmia.2193Lahmia.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @vicious.5683 said:
    Sad part is Power Reaper is still trash tier in PVE.

    I'd happily take a power reaper that was trash in pvp and wvw but top tier in pve.

    "Surrender and serve me in life, or die and slave for me in death."

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2018

    @Crinn.7864 said:
    Both this recent patch and the November patch both brought changes that where clearly intended to improve power reaper in PvE formats, with the side effect of destroying Reaper's sustain in PvP.

    I do PvP/WvW exclusively on Power Reaper since Hot Release and I can say that when you look at the big picture the spec became more viable.

    The last patch changed nothing for Power Reaper except the corrupt table but was still a huge buff because a lot of counter-specs were nerfed - esp. Scourge and Mirage. Warrior and Power/Shiro is a doable matchup now because you can switch your utilites from anti-condi to anti-power while still being capable of killing a Scourge. I would even say that at the moment there do not exist any hardcounters to Power Reaper. So much about 1v1...

    When we consider team scenarios Power Reaper performs great as long as you don't team up with low-fight-presence specs like Thief, LB-Ranger or Mesmer. You need someone right next to you for support - it does not matter if it is a Warrior, Revenant, Guardian, Engineer... as long as it's no Teef.

  • Lahmia.2193Lahmia.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2018

    @Crinn.7864 said:

    @Lahmia.2193 said:

    @vicious.5683 said:
    Sad part is Power Reaper is still trash tier in PVE.

    I'd happily take a power reaper that was trash in pvp and wvw but top tier in pve.

    Power Reaper will never be that. Power Reaper was never suited for PvE, or rather I should say Power necro is not suited for PvE. Condi Reaper however is very well suited to PvE.

    I do not understand why people are so obsessed with it having to be power reaper and not condi reaper for PvE.

    Power reaper was introduced to fill in the missing gaps that were necros lack of a two handed cleaving melee weapon (reaper greatsword was clearly a pve weapon by design) and the uselessness that was death shroud (especially in pve - whereby it wasn't even used for the most part, instead being "flashed"). I don't see how it meant they weren't suited for pve. They could bump up the current low tier damage that is power reaper (with trait damage modifiers - something necro has always been bottom tier in) to mid tier easily, without completely breaking it in pvp or wvw.

    "Surrender and serve me in life, or die and slave for me in death."

  • pah.4931pah.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lahmia.2193 said:

    @Crinn.7864 said:

    @Lahmia.2193 said:

    @vicious.5683 said:
    Sad part is Power Reaper is still trash tier in PVE.

    I'd happily take a power reaper that was trash in pvp and wvw but top tier in pve.

    Power Reaper will never be that. Power Reaper was never suited for PvE, or rather I should say Power necro is not suited for PvE. Condi Reaper however is very well suited to PvE.

    I do not understand why people are so obsessed with it having to be power reaper and not condi reaper for PvE.

    Power reaper was introduced to fill in the missing gaps that were necros lack of a two handed cleaving melee weapon (reaper greatsword was clearly a pve weapon by design) and the uselessness that was death shroud (especially in pve - whereby it wasn't even used for the most part, instead being "flashed"). I don't see how it meant they weren't suited for pve. They could bump up the current low tier damage that is power reaper (with trait damage modifiers - something necro has always been bottom tier in) to mid tier easily, without completely breaking it in pvp or wvw.

    I disagree with your assessment of GS on Power Reaper. It seems more like a /failed/ attempt at a PvP weapon for necro. The skill-shot pull (with damage), the AoE blind, and the huge AoE hits (plus the <50% health mechanic of Gravedigger) seems more designed for a PvP bruiser archetype. I mean... in a 10-minute long PvE boss fight, who in the hell wants to spam #2 for 4 minutes straight once the boss is below that 50% mark? Talk about a terrible PvE "rotation" ... but now Power Reaper is a low-mobility, glass canon with a slow GS attack and no defense skills... kitten?

    The main problem is that, just as a basic design philosophy, the shroud mechanic is flawed because it is either good for PvP (tool for strong defense) and almost useless for PvE or it's good for PvE (and great, but quick, DPS boost) and therefore mostly useless for PvP. And then the side effect of this is that -- as the profession's core , defining mechanic -- all other design decisions are informed by the purpose of Shroud (like having ZERO blocks or extra evades or easy access to Stab/Invuln/Aegis, etc). But with the latest patches (November, especially) Shroud has been pushed to a more offensive role... which leaves PvP Power Reaper with absolutely NO defensive abilities. That's a problem.

  • I don’t pvp, only fractals, light raiding and mostly wvw. The damage buffs on reaper were sorely needed in wvw even if our survivability took a nerf. The shroud decay going to 5% is unnecessary but I was still very happy with the overall damage increase. What we really need is the cd trait to get back into shroud in 7 seconds along with the original 3%. This imho is the #1 wvw buff we need right now. Not only, but first.

    Overall I agree with the OP. Nerfing condi reaper was stupid, I thought the whole point of this game was build diversity and here we have anet blatantly trying to shoehorn us into builds. Power reaper still needed the dps boost, at least for wvw play.

    It would be nice to be able to power reaper in raids/fractals too, viably, with more than gs2 spam. But, I probably ask for a bit much.

    CD-FA-TC-HoD-SoS-TC-FA-SBI-SoS-JQ-ET-SFR-FA-DR-SF- Mag
    Darth

  • pah.4931pah.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @cobracommander.5861 said:
    I don’t pvp, only fractals, light raiding and mostly wvw. The damage buffs on reaper were sorely needed in wvw even if our survivability took a nerf. The shroud decay going to 5% is unnecessary but I was still very happy with the overall damage increase. What we really need is the cd trait to get back into shroud in 7 seconds along with the original 3%. This imho is the #1 wvw buff we need right now. Not only, but first.

    Overall I agree with the OP. Nerfing condi reaper was stupid, I thought the whole point of this game was build diversity and here we have anet blatantly trying to shoehorn us into builds. Power reaper still needed the dps boost, at least for wvw play.

    It would be nice to be able to power reaper in raids/fractals too, viably, with more than gs2 spam. But, I probably ask for a bit much.

    But here's the problem. Everyone wants Power Reaper to be viable in their respective realm / desired game mode ... but shroud, as a mechanic, cannot support that level of diversity without a complete redesign OR complete and drastic splits between modes (which Anet does NOT do).

    In WvW you are asking for more damage, at the loss of survivability. This absolutely decimates Power Reaper in sPvP (where Power Reaper burst is great but sustain is terrible). Anet has been pretty open with their thoughts around shroud. Because it's a "second life bar" they are under the impression that Necro cannot have great damage or great defensive abilities (other than shroud). But, over the years, and after countless complaints to be "raid viable" ... shroud has slowly turned into a dps tool and not a defensive tool, so now nobody wins!

    Bottom line. Shroud needs redesigned. Or, if they keep it as is, Necro needs more blocks/defensive abilities.

  • @pah.4931 said:

    @cobracommander.5861 said:
    I don’t pvp, only fractals, light raiding and mostly wvw. The damage buffs on reaper were sorely needed in wvw even if our survivability took a nerf. The shroud decay going to 5% is unnecessary but I was still very happy with the overall damage increase. What we really need is the cd trait to get back into shroud in 7 seconds along with the original 3%. This imho is the #1 wvw buff we need right now. Not only, but first.

    Overall I agree with the OP. Nerfing condi reaper was stupid, I thought the whole point of this game was build diversity and here we have anet blatantly trying to shoehorn us into builds. Power reaper still needed the dps boost, at least for wvw play.

    It would be nice to be able to power reaper in raids/fractals too, viably, with more than gs2 spam. But, I probably ask for a bit much.

    But here's the problem. Everyone wants Power Reaper to be viable in their respective realm / desired game mode ... but shroud, as a mechanic, cannot support that level of diversity without a complete redesign OR complete and drastic splits between modes (which Anet does NOT do).

    In WvW you are asking for more damage, at the loss of survivability. This absolutely decimates Power Reaper in sPvP (where Power Reaper burst is great but sustain is terrible). Anet has been pretty open with their thoughts around shroud. Because it's a "second life bar" they are under the impression that Necro cannot have great damage or great defensive abilities (other than shroud). But, over the years, and after countless complaints to be "raid viable" ... shroud has slowly turned into a dps tool and not a defensive tool, so now nobody wins!

    Bottom line. Shroud needs redesigned. Or, if they keep it as is, Necro needs more blocks/defensive abilities.

    If the devs gave us an endure pain, resistance, or blocks, I’d be over the moon. Anet always seems to take the simple route which is never the best, so I’d at least like to get back into shroud again and have it last longer.

    power reaper damage sucked, it needed a buff without the survivability nerf. I get the concerns about how shroud works in general, I’m just assuming Anet isn’t going to change that.

    CD-FA-TC-HoD-SoS-TC-FA-SBI-SoS-JQ-ET-SFR-FA-DR-SF- Mag
    Darth

  • I don’t believe in mutually exclusive build changes. You can buff one and leave others unchanged. I think that’s the big thing anet got wrong with the major reaper changes last year.

    CD-FA-TC-HoD-SoS-TC-FA-SBI-SoS-JQ-ET-SFR-FA-DR-SF- Mag
    Darth

  • UMS.1976UMS.1976 Member ✭✭

    I run power reaper in spvp now instead of scourge (after 06 feb). Im still plat 1. I found power reaper great burst class with some problems with sustain. I mean i have a lot of problems with condi pressure, but i can be usefull in mass fight with my wells / protections / gs4 and axe boonstreaping.
    Some glass builds like zerk ele even get blastet with one axe 2.
    But power reaper is a real glass canon... At least i have some damage )) (btw this build is far more fun for me than scourge)

  • Crinn.7864Crinn.7864 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2018

    @pah.4931 said:

    @cobracommander.5861 said:
    I don’t pvp, only fractals, light raiding and mostly wvw. The damage buffs on reaper were sorely needed in wvw even if our survivability took a nerf. The shroud decay going to 5% is unnecessary but I was still very happy with the overall damage increase. What we really need is the cd trait to get back into shroud in 7 seconds along with the original 3%. This imho is the #1 wvw buff we need right now. Not only, but first.

    Overall I agree with the OP. Nerfing condi reaper was stupid, I thought the whole point of this game was build diversity and here we have anet blatantly trying to shoehorn us into builds. Power reaper still needed the dps boost, at least for wvw play.

    It would be nice to be able to power reaper in raids/fractals too, viably, with more than gs2 spam. But, I probably ask for a bit much.

    Everyone wants Power Reaper to be viable in their respective realm / desired game mode ... but shroud, as a mechanic, cannot support that level of diversity without a complete redesign OR complete and drastic splits between modes (which Anet does NOT do).

    Except Shroud did support it. Less than 5 months ago Reaper was meta in both PvP modes while also pulling competitive DPS in PvE.

    You lot keep insisting that Reaper's design is 'broken' when in reality it is was really close to working everywhere, but then you lot had to ruin it by peer pressuring Anet into trying to convert the class into a glass cannon.

    Sanity is for the weak minded
    YouTube

  • pah.4931pah.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Crinn.7864 said:

    @pah.4931 said:

    @cobracommander.5861 said:
    I don’t pvp, only fractals, light raiding and mostly wvw. The damage buffs on reaper were sorely needed in wvw even if our survivability took a nerf. The shroud decay going to 5% is unnecessary but I was still very happy with the overall damage increase. What we really need is the cd trait to get back into shroud in 7 seconds along with the original 3%. This imho is the #1 wvw buff we need right now. Not only, but first.

    Overall I agree with the OP. Nerfing condi reaper was stupid, I thought the whole point of this game was build diversity and here we have anet blatantly trying to shoehorn us into builds. Power reaper still needed the dps boost, at least for wvw play.

    It would be nice to be able to power reaper in raids/fractals too, viably, with more than gs2 spam. But, I probably ask for a bit much.

    Everyone wants Power Reaper to be viable in their respective realm / desired game mode ... but shroud, as a mechanic, cannot support that level of diversity without a complete redesign OR complete and drastic splits between modes (which Anet does NOT do).

    Except Shroud did support it. Less than 5 months ago Reaper was meta in both PvP modes while also pulling competitive DPS in PvE.

    You lot keep insisting that Reaper's design is 'broken' when in reality it is was really close to working everywhere, but then you lot had to ruin it by peer pressuring Anet into trying to convert the class into a glass cannon.

    I disagree. Being "competitive dps" isn't always the goal. In PvE, especially raids and dungeons and fractals, shroud didn't do anything but serve as an "OH kitten" button. It's weird to have your class mechanic not benefit you all that much in an entire aspect of the game.

  • Crinn.7864Crinn.7864 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @pah.4931 said:

    @Crinn.7864 said:

    @pah.4931 said:

    @cobracommander.5861 said:
    I don’t pvp, only fractals, light raiding and mostly wvw. The damage buffs on reaper were sorely needed in wvw even if our survivability took a nerf. The shroud decay going to 5% is unnecessary but I was still very happy with the overall damage increase. What we really need is the cd trait to get back into shroud in 7 seconds along with the original 3%. This imho is the #1 wvw buff we need right now. Not only, but first.

    Overall I agree with the OP. Nerfing condi reaper was stupid, I thought the whole point of this game was build diversity and here we have anet blatantly trying to shoehorn us into builds. Power reaper still needed the dps boost, at least for wvw play.

    It would be nice to be able to power reaper in raids/fractals too, viably, with more than gs2 spam. But, I probably ask for a bit much.

    Everyone wants Power Reaper to be viable in their respective realm / desired game mode ... but shroud, as a mechanic, cannot support that level of diversity without a complete redesign OR complete and drastic splits between modes (which Anet does NOT do).

    Except Shroud did support it. Less than 5 months ago Reaper was meta in both PvP modes while also pulling competitive DPS in PvE.

    You lot keep insisting that Reaper's design is 'broken' when in reality it is was really close to working everywhere, but then you lot had to ruin it by peer pressuring Anet into trying to convert the class into a glass cannon.

    I disagree. Being "competitive dps" isn't always the goal. In PvE, especially raids and dungeons and fractals, shroud didn't do anything but serve as an "OH kitten" button. It's weird to have your class mechanic not benefit you all that much in an entire aspect of the game.

    PvE Condi Reaper uses shroud as part of it's rotation.

    Sanity is for the weak minded
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  • vicious.5683vicious.5683 Member ✭✭✭

    @Crinn.7864 said:

    @Lahmia.2193 said:

    @vicious.5683 said:
    Sad part is Power Reaper is still trash tier in PVE.

    I'd happily take a power reaper that was trash in pvp and wvw but top tier in pve.

    Power Reaper will never be that. Power Reaper was never suited for PvE, or rather I should say Power necro is not suited for PvE. Condi Reaper however is very well suited to PvE.

    I do not understand why people are so obsessed with it having to be power reaper and not condi reaper for PvE.

    That big kitten sword screams Power Build.
    Besides, Power Reaper was great at release, but again those cry babies in forums cried and Reaper was gutted.

  • The thing is, Reaper was below average everywhere before the November balance patch. Having a tradeoff was completely unecessary, because it just needed a buff.

    People keep saying that Shroud is a defensive tool and an offensive tool, so they can't make either part too strong.

    This is incorrect. Yes, Shroud can function as either, but it's used as one or the other at any given time, not both. Think of Nocturne in League of Legends. Every single part of his kit has offensive and defensive applications, but players never use the skills as both at the same time. The situations just don't allow for it. Shroud is the same way. You can actually balance the offensive applications almost separately from the defensive applications and still be fine.

    Plague Signet is the only skill in the game that is worse when traited.

  • Crinn.7864Crinn.7864 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 15, 2018

    @Sublimatio.6981 said:
    As for your complaint, OP, you literally act like "my game mode is more important, I want power reaper special only in pvp". thats not how balance or even constructive feedback works.

    My complaint is not that my mode is more important. My complaint is that we went from being meta in 2 of 3 modes and viable in third to being trash in all 3 modes. Reaper has lost all viability in all modes all because this subforum and reddit had to go whine campaign back in August about "muh true power spec" as if preferred damage type means anything beyond informing gear choices.

    @Sublimatio.6981 said:
    I want to play power reaper, and I want to do respectable DPS. I don't care about pvp or wvw, but I'm not gonna ask ANet to completely abandon power reaper in these game modes. That would be inappropriate. You're not the only one who plays this game.

    I am not asking ArenaNet to abandon anything, I'm asking ArenaNet to stop throwing 2/3rds of the gamemodes under the bus just to suit a tiny minority of players that insist on being able to do top tier DPS in raids by rebinding all their keys to gravedigger.

    Sanity is for the weak minded
    YouTube

  • @Crinn.7864 said:

    @Sublimatio.6981 said:
    As for your complaint, OP, you literally act like "my game mode is more important, I want power reaper special only in pvp". thats not how balance or even constructive feedback works.

    My complaint is not that my mode is more important. My complaint is that we went from being meta in 2 of 3 modes and viable in third to being trash in all 3 modes. Reaper has lost all viability in all modes all because this subforum and reddit had to go whine campaign back in August about "muh true power spec" as if preferred damage type means anything beyond informing gear choices.

    @Sublimatio.6981 said:
    I want to play power reaper, and I want to do respectable DPS. I don't care about pvp or wvw, but I'm not gonna ask ANet to completely abandon power reaper in these game modes. That would be inappropriate. You're not the only one who plays this game.

    I am not asking ArenaNet to abandon anything, I'm asking ArenaNet to stop throwing 2/3rds of the gamemodes under the bus just to suit a tiny minority of players that insist on being able to do top tier DPS in raids by rebinding all their keys to gravedigger.

    1) Power reaper was never good in all 3 game modes. Hardly. Definitely not in PvE, ever. It was doing 24k dps. Even less at HoT launch.
    2) Oh so PvE is suddenly a tiny minority of players but PvP isn't? You know, besides raids there are also fractals, raids and open world events. You're being exclusive and only care about your "tiny" enclave within the game. The proper way to address reaper issues would be to suggest sensible balance changes, not "hurr durr trash power in pve let them play condi reaper i want my power reaper in pvp". I don't think you realize how immature that is.

    "clang clang shriiiiek clang!" -Belinda Delaqua
    When I join your LFG

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    @Crinn.7864 said:
    Both this recent patch and the November patch both brought changes that where clearly intended to improve power reaper in PvE formats, with the side effect of destroying Reaper's sustain in PvP.

    I do PvP/WvW exclusively on Power Reaper since Hot Release and I can say that when you look at the big picture the spec became more viable.

    The last patch changed nothing for Power Reaper except the corrupt table but was still a huge buff because a lot of counter-specs were nerfed - esp. Scourge and Mirage. Warrior and Power/Shiro is a doable matchup now because you can switch your utilites from anti-condi to anti-power while still being capable of killing a Scourge. I would even say that at the moment there do not exist any hardcounters to Power Reaper. So much about 1v1...

    When we consider team scenarios Power Reaper performs great as long as you don't team up with low-fight-presence specs like Thief, LB-Ranger or Mesmer. You need someone right next to you for support - it does not matter if it is a Warrior, Revenant, Guardian, Engineer... as long as it's no Teef.

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    @Crinn.7864 said:
    Both this recent patch and the November patch both brought changes that where clearly intended to improve power reaper in PvE formats, with the side effect of destroying Reaper's sustain in PvP.

    I do PvP/WvW exclusively on Power Reaper since Hot Release and I can say that when you look at the big picture the spec became more viable.

    The last patch changed nothing for Power Reaper except the corrupt table but was still a huge buff because a lot of counter-specs were nerfed - esp. Scourge and Mirage. Warrior and Power/Shiro is a doable matchup now because you can switch your utilites from anti-condi to anti-power while still being capable of killing a Scourge. I would even say that at the moment there do not exist any hardcounters to Power Reaper. So much about 1v1...

    When we consider team scenarios Power Reaper performs great as long as you don't team up with low-fight-presence specs like Thief, LB-Ranger or Mesmer. You need someone right next to you for support - it does not matter if it is a Warrior, Revenant, Guardian, Engineer... as long as it's no Teef.

    You are kidding right?
    Every thief, engi, firebrand, ranger can easily win 1v1 vs reaper.
    Yes i have to say some matchups got better with the last balance patch.
    But still you are no matchup on reaprr for most oponents

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    What still baffle me is how the hell you end up thinking that the "power reaper" changes were done for PvE... That's nonsense...

    If we had been pre HoT in the zerk PvE meta it would have had some sense but ultimately since HoT the will to step out of the "condi cancer" always came from PvP and, especially, WvW.

    WvW is not a PvE mode. It has never been and will never be.

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    What still baffle me is how the hell you end up thinking that the "power reaper" changes were done for PvE... That's nonsense...

    If we had been pre HoT in the zerk PvE meta it would have had some sense but ultimately since HoT the will to step out of the "condi cancer" always came from PvP and, especially, WvW.

    WvW is not a PvE mode. It has never been and will never be.

    Did you ever read a description of wvw?

    "World versus World (also known as WvW) is a combination Player versus Player/Player versus Environment game mode where players from three different servers (worlds), or more, battle in the Mists."

    So i guess you are wrong xD

  • InsaneQR.7412InsaneQR.7412 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Well it wouldnt be inherently bad if reaper could be taken as a power dps in raids and T4 fractals.
    The one true thing thats holding necro back as a power high end dps is epidemic.
    It has just huge utility and scales with condi dmg. And its the reason why necros got into raids in the first place.
    Maybe a hybrid reaper? Wouldnt optimal dps but maybe.

  • @Crinn.7864 said:> I am not asking ArenaNet to abandon anything, I'm asking ArenaNet to stop throwing 2/3rds of the gamemodes under the bus just to suit a tiny minority of players that insist on being able to do top tier DPS in raids by rebinding all their keys to gravedigger.>

    First off PvE is the majority of players and all the damage that has been done to power reaper was to try and fix it for the minority and we can all see how that's worked out. Most power reapers are not looking for top DPS what they want is respectable DPS in all game modes. As far as Reaper being a power build that was the intention all along and it's been slowly converted to condition because they have not properly balanced power on all classes for the most part and over powered condition damage.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Crinn.7864 said:

    I am not talking about the Q2 2016 condi reaper nerfs. Also Condi Reaper fell out of the solo queue PvP meta in Q1 2017 and fell out of the tournament meta in Q3 2017. Power Reaper was part of the solo queue PvP meta for all of 2017 prior to PoF, and even with PoF was viable up until the November 2017 patch.

    To be clear this thread is exclusively about the November 2017 changes to reaper shroud, and the February 2018 rework of vampiric presence. Both changes where seemingly designed to improve power reaper's raid DPS at the expense of survivability, and that survivability loss ended up completely destroying Reaper's last grip on viability in PvP given that Reaper was already struggling in a Scourge dominated meta.

    Thats fine i was simply implying that anet hits both pvp and pve at the same time in most cases without doing a skill split which leads to a loss on both ends

    I do not understand where you got the idea that I want Gravedigger nerfed. I want Reaper's survivability returned to a level that will allow us to hold our own again. Currently a Reaper running a Paladin's Amulet and Soldier Runes is significantly squishier than the marauder builds of other classes.

    I agree with your amulet example 100% that is a thing that should not be happening. But boon gain is insane right now on almost every other profession allowing them to get away with things like that.

    No, no, no,.... Im not implying that you want Gravedigger nerfed. You mentioned getting reworked to use more than too buttons. I feel like they could do this but they all too often implement changes for what they assume is "the better" leads to a complexity or a risk for reward trade. For example giving reaper more damage for less shroud up time or boosting Vamp Presence but putting a potential limiting icd on it which it really didnt need. Usually any trade that comes for making one part of necro better often has some limit factor thrown in just because.... Once you count those factors things feels like a nerf more than a buff. Sorry for the confusion on that part.

    You cannot make a low mobility melee class function as a glass cannon in PvP formats, yet ArenaNet has spent the past few patches trying to turn Reaper into exactly that.

    Im starting thing necro is at a loss for getting a proper fix like lily wrote in her post perhaps its just not a high priority thing based on cost it would take.
    My idea would just be to give reaper more mobility and higher sustain possibly through boon stealing / blighters boon combo (but we dont have anything that does that with reaper)

  • Anchoku.8142Anchoku.8142 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 15, 2018

    Necromancer is a debuffing profession so balance is impossible across the game modes.

    Debuffing has been purposely weakened in PvE to keep bosses from being completely dominated by Necromancer staples like blind, chill, and weakness. Defiance is a direct counter to Necromancer and all other profession skills with control effects or "soft CC" like blind and weakness versus dps conditions.

    The break bar was introduced to return some of that lost value but Necromancer was short-changed. Perhaps Reaper's original chill durations was an attempt to provide accelerated break bar ablation but it was too strong in PvP. The break bar damage table likely needs adjustment.

    However, it would be much easier to split Necro in game modes more than it already is.

    p.s.
    One last thought is that, while other professions have received increased condition dps and condition management over the years, Necro has not received enough in the way of boons, group utility, mobility, blocks, evades, immunity, etc. Conditions and boons are still a huge problem given how prevalent they are.

  • Crinn.7864Crinn.7864 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sublimatio.6981 said:

    @Crinn.7864 said:

    @Sublimatio.6981 said:
    As for your complaint, OP, you literally act like "my game mode is more important, I want power reaper special only in pvp". thats not how balance or even constructive feedback works.

    My complaint is not that my mode is more important. My complaint is that we went from being meta in 2 of 3 modes and viable in third to being trash in all 3 modes. Reaper has lost all viability in all modes all because this subforum and reddit had to go whine campaign back in August about "muh true power spec" as if preferred damage type means anything beyond informing gear choices.

    @Sublimatio.6981 said:
    I want to play power reaper, and I want to do respectable DPS. I don't care about pvp or wvw, but I'm not gonna ask ANet to completely abandon power reaper in these game modes. That would be inappropriate. You're not the only one who plays this game.

    I am not asking ArenaNet to abandon anything, I'm asking ArenaNet to stop throwing 2/3rds of the gamemodes under the bus just to suit a tiny minority of players that insist on being able to do top tier DPS in raids by rebinding all their keys to gravedigger.

    1) Power reaper was never good in all 3 game modes. Hardly. Definitely not in PvE, ever. It was doing 24k dps. Even less at HoT launch.

    Condi Reaper was meta in WvW up until Scourge. Power Reaper was in the regular queue meta in sPvP for all of 2017 prior to November. Condi Reaper was in the tournament meta from Q1 2016 to Q3 2017.
    Condi Reaper was also competitive DPS wise for most of 2017 in PvE.

    But see you're arbitrarily requiring it "power reaper" to be meta. You don't want to talk about the perfectly viable condi build that was available. People like you are why I made this thread.

    2) Oh so PvE is suddenly a tiny minority of players but PvP isn't? You know, besides raids there are also fractals, raids and open world events. You're being exclusive and only care about your "tiny" enclave within the game. The proper way to address reaper issues would be to suggest sensible balance changes, not "hurr durr trash power in pve let them play condi reaper i want my power reaper in pvp". I don't think you realize how immature that is.

    I want ANY Reaper build to viable in PvP I don't care if it's condi or power, right now all variants of Reaper are kitten in all PvP modes. Meanwhile you lot weren't satisfied with condi reaper's 32k DPS so you got the entire class destroyed just to add 7k to power reaper's golem benchmark.

    Sanity is for the weak minded
    YouTube

  • Sublimatio.6981Sublimatio.6981 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 15, 2018

    @Crinn.7864 said:
    Condi Reaper was meta in WvW up until Scourge. Power Reaper was in the regular queue meta in sPvP for all of 2017 prior to November. Condi Reaper was in the tournament meta from Q1 2016 to Q3 2017.
    Condi Reaper was also competitive DPS wise for most of 2017 in PvE.

    Condi reaper was never competitive dps wise in pve. Even when you could spam jagged horrors, there were better dps options (deathly chill didn't stack 3 bleeds back then). People were still running condi rangers and tempests.

    @Crinn.7864 said:
    But see you're arbitrarily requiring it "power reaper" to be meta. You don't want to talk about the perfectly viable condi build that was available. People like you are why I made this thread.

    Yes I am specifically saying what I want to play, same like you. Since you made a thread about power reaper why would I want to talk about condi builds here?

    @Crinn.7864 said:
    I want ANY Reaper build to viable in PvP I don't care if it's condi or power, right now all variants of Reaper are kitten in all PvP modes. Meanwhile you lot weren't satisfied with condi reaper's 32k DPS so you got the entire class destroyed just to add 7k to power reaper's golem benchmark.

    Lmao, I think you're forgetting GotL was removed from the game, and so has everyone's dps dropped. So it's not like Condi Reaper used to be a great 32k dps. Every class had higher dps before the GotL nerf.
    Also, power reaper was 24k dps pre-GotL nerf. During GotL nerf power reaper received buffs which made it stay unaffected at 24k DPS. Later the shroud deplete rate patch added ~3k dps (27.5k). Recently, alacrity was nerfed but vampiric presence got more damage, which left power reaper at 27.1k-27.4k DPS. I hope you get your power reaper dps history correct now.

    I think it's ridiculous how you're distancing yourself from "the pve players who ruined your class in your beloved pvp". Share some constructive ideas that would benefit every player in every mode instead of rambling about how I should be playing condi reaper and leave your power build alone for pvp lol.

    "clang clang shriiiiek clang!" -Belinda Delaqua
    When I join your LFG

  • Sephylon.4938Sephylon.4938 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I get the impression that you believe that it's the players wanting things that's the problem, instead of anet delivering half baked concepts of an idea of a plan. At that point you may as well complain that the ocean is wet. People will keep wanting things, but it is ultimately up to anet to decide which demands they cave to and how they implement it. Keep in mind that the forum is only the vocal minority of the population and are unlikely to affect their bottom line. The majority of the population aren't exposed to us and that's where all the "whales" and "dolphins" lie.

    To address your point, the request was to bring power reaper up to par with condi reaper not to kill condi reaper. Now granted that some of the ideas that were tossed around revolved around changing deathly chill into a power dps boosting trait, but none of that came into fruition did it. No, instead anet went to push their rhetoric of "necro can't have good dps coz it has 2 hp bars", which some people bought and allowed for the nerfs to reaper shroud. (The whole premise of which is utter bs imo; a block, an in invul, an invis, or an extra dodge will grant more survivability than having a 2nd hp bar that deteriorates, but that's just me.) The loudest voice that called for nerfs to condi reaper came from the wvw crowd where a group of reapers could stack bleed stacks rivaling pre-nerf firebrand's burn stacking. Pve players ever asked for a nerf to lich form's mark of horror, granted a few people were making memes about it, but that didn't last long because it was "unintended game play", and the change to plaguelands came from left field. Granted most people had problems with transformation skills for several reasons, but none of us expected what anet did.

    I am a giant tomato filled with love. I have come to sell you a house made out of pancakes.

  • Crinn.7864Crinn.7864 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sephylon.4938 said:
    To address your point, the request was to bring power reaper up to par with condi reaper not to kill condi reaper. Now granted that some of the ideas that were tossed around revolved around changing deathly chill into a power dps boosting trait, but none of that came into fruition did it. No, instead anet went to push their rhetoric of "necro can't have good dps coz it has 2 hp bars", which some people bought and allowed for the nerfs to reaper shroud. (The whole premise of which is utter bs imo; a block, an in invul, an invis, or an extra dodge will grant more survivability than having a 2nd hp bar that deteriorates, but that's just me.) The loudest voice that called for nerfs to condi reaper came from the wvw crowd where a group of reapers could stack bleed stacks rivaling pre-nerf firebrand's burn stacking. Pve players ever asked for a nerf to lich form's mark of horror, granted a few people were making memes about it, but that didn't last long because it was "unintended game play", and the change to plaguelands came from left field. Granted most people had problems with transformation skills for several reasons, but none of us expected what anet did.

    My problem is that in literally every thread about Reaper's Raid performance there are invariably several posters saying that they would be totally ok with trading survivability for DPS, which is literally just affirming the dev's misguided notions about necro's defensive capabilities.

    If the raid community would just say "give us moar DPS" I wouldn't have a issue, but instead the raiders are like "we'll trade X for more DPS" where X is always something that's really important for other gamemodes. And this behavior is limited only to necro community, none of the other class communities constantly ask Anet to take stuff away from them.

    Sanity is for the weak minded
    YouTube

  • Crinn.7864Crinn.7864 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sublimatio.6981 said:

    @Crinn.7864 said:
    Condi Reaper was meta in WvW up until Scourge. Power Reaper was in the regular queue meta in sPvP for all of 2017 prior to November. Condi Reaper was in the tournament meta from Q1 2016 to Q3 2017.
    Condi Reaper was also competitive DPS wise for most of 2017 in PvE.

    Condi reaper was never competitive dps wise in pve. Even when you could spam jagged horrors, there were better dps options (deathly chill didn't stack 3 bleeds back then). People were still running condi rangers and tempests.

    You'll notice I said condi reaper in 2017 which is the 3 bleed deathly chill incarnation of condi reaper. The entire Jagged Horrors fiasco was back in 2016.

    random strawmans

    You keep saying "your power build." I do not care whether I play power or condi in PvP. I play power reaper right now because condi reaper is even more trash because condi reaper cannot use blighter's boon and reaper without blighter's boon is literally unplayable in pvp formats.

    Sanity is for the weak minded
    YouTube

  • Sephylon.4938Sephylon.4938 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 15, 2018

    @Crinn.7864 said:

    @Sephylon.4938 said:
    To address your point, the request was to bring power reaper up to par with condi reaper not to kill condi reaper. Now granted that some of the ideas that were tossed around revolved around changing deathly chill into a power dps boosting trait, but none of that came into fruition did it. No, instead anet went to push their rhetoric of "necro can't have good dps coz it has 2 hp bars", which some people bought and allowed for the nerfs to reaper shroud. (The whole premise of which is utter bs imo; a block, an in invul, an invis, or an extra dodge will grant more survivability than having a 2nd hp bar that deteriorates, but that's just me.) The loudest voice that called for nerfs to condi reaper came from the wvw crowd where a group of reapers could stack bleed stacks rivaling pre-nerf firebrand's burn stacking. Pve players ever asked for a nerf to lich form's mark of horror, granted a few people were making memes about it, but that didn't last long because it was "unintended game play", and the change to plaguelands came from left field. Granted most people had problems with transformation skills for several reasons, but none of us expected what anet did.

    My problem is that in literally every thread about Reaper's Raid performance there are invariably several posters saying that they would be totally ok with trading survivability for DPS, which is literally just affirming the dev's misguided notions about necro's defensive capabilities.

    If the raid community would just say "give us moar DPS" I wouldn't have a issue, but instead the raiders are like "we'll trade X for more DPS" where X is always something that's really important for other gamemodes. And this behavior is limited only to necro community, none of the other class communities constantly ask Anet to take stuff away from them.

    I agree that the community holds some of the fault for believing in the dev's misguided notion. (The best example of which in my opinion is awaken the pain, a trait that is basically the warrior's pinnacle of strength, but ours costs us the condition bonus of might, but most defend as okay because pinnacle of strength is a minor and awaken is a major.) But anet also has to carry some of the blame, most of it I believe. They were the ones that decided to balance necro this way and refused to budge from their stance, they were the ones that put this notion into the head of most players. Additionally, they are the ones that dictate how much of a split is present in pvp/wvw/pve, but refuse to do so because of "reasons". As I've come to accept with the recent balance patch; we need a bigger split between the balances of the game mode. Have traits and skills work differently between game modes as it is now evident to me that this is what is needed to get necro, and all of its especs, in a better stat in all game modes, that or a complete rework of the class surpassing the rework of mesmer.

    I am a giant tomato filled with love. I have come to sell you a house made out of pancakes.

  • Crinn.7864Crinn.7864 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sephylon.4938 said:
    But anet also has to carry some of the blame, most of it I believe. They were the ones that decided to balance necro this way and refused to budge from their stance, they were the ones that put this notion into the head of most players.

    And it's our job as the necro community to disabuse them of this misguided notion, rather than trying to bargain.

    Sanity is for the weak minded
    YouTube

  • Sephylon.4938Sephylon.4938 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 15, 2018

    agreed

    edit
    The method of how is still up to be discussed, the method you are using right now has the effect of making pve players feel somewhere between attacked and being guilt-shamed into making pvp worse. Also, while an open discussion will be useful to players, a method that is loud enough to get their attention also has to be devised. History has shown that discussions, no matter how many good ideas there are, will be ignored by anet.

    Side note I have a bit if a bias/agenda here: as of the recent patch, I have come to believe that the game modes needs to be split completely, or that necro must have a complete rework. Also I lean more towards the pve side of things. I just want to make that abundantly clear and leave no doubts about it.

    I am a giant tomato filled with love. I have come to sell you a house made out of pancakes.

  • Scarran.9845Scarran.9845 Member ✭✭
    edited February 15, 2018

    I would love to see the changes to power reaper reverted but going with past experience that is never going to happen. The increased damage is basically useless unless your fighting a static golem or mindless mobs but anyone who is competent enough to move their character it is a nerf in PvP & WvW.

    I think at this point it is safe to assume we will never be "meta" in PvE and we have always found a home in WvW from small havoc groups to larger zergs. sPvP is a bit of a hit and miss in that some months we are good, others we are not but again it was more than viable. For me it would be great if it got reverted as I hate playing Scourge and at this moment in time my Necro is parked as I hate the direction Reaper has taken.....which is a shame as its been my main class to play from beta till now.

    But for me the class is no longer fun anymore as I can do similar on other classes and not be a hindrance to the group.

  • Crinn.7864Crinn.7864 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sephylon.4938 said:
    agreed

    edit
    The method of how is still up to be discussed, the method you are using right now has the effect of making pve players feel somewhere between attacked and being guilt-shamed into making pvp worse. Also, while an open discussion will be useful to players, a method that is loud enough to get their attention also has to be devised. History has shown that discussions, no matter how many good ideas there are, will be ignored by anet.

    Obviously bring loud enough isn't as much as a obstacle as one would think. ArenaNet clearly cowed to the giant 600 post reddit thread that popped up after the August balance, and it's that uproar that I personally blame for the November patch.
    Also yes I am aware that the stance in this thread is highly confrontational. However if I had written a polite considerate wall of text this thread would have gotten maybe 5 posts before it dropped off. Sometimes shock value is necessary for generating discussion.

    Side note I have a bit if a bias/agenda here: as of the recent patch, I have come to believe that the game modes needs to be split completely, or that necro must have a complete rework. Also I lean more towards the pve side of things. I just want to make that abundantly clear and leave no doubts about it.

    Honestly the only split the class really needs is for LF pool size and LF degeneration due to the massive difference in enemy damage output between PvE and PvP.

    Sanity is for the weak minded
    YouTube

  • Arzurag.7506Arzurag.7506 Member ✭✭✭

    I would like to get a coin for every time someone takes the effort to write a solid complaint about necro/reaper/scourge and its state.

    Anet will ALWAYS buff X whilst nerfing Y, a trade-off every frickin´time which is in my opinion a bad way to balance out a class but, what we say, what you say, what everyone who loves and wants to see necro improved is saying: doesn´t even matter due Anet not balancing together with the community.

    "I´m not big on sermons nor words, Broken bones teach better lessons and speak for themselves."

  • Warcry.1596Warcry.1596 Member ✭✭
    edited February 16, 2018

    I play power in raid content, among other content like T4s and CMs. Am I not supposed to? :(

    "He shall make whole that which was torn asunder,
    Restore that which was lost, and all shall be as one."

  • @Crinn.7864 said:

    @Sephylon.4938 said:
    To address your point, the request was to bring power reaper up to par with condi reaper not to kill condi reaper. Now granted that some of the ideas that were tossed around revolved around changing deathly chill into a power dps boosting trait, but none of that came into fruition did it. No, instead anet went to push their rhetoric of "necro can't have good dps coz it has 2 hp bars", which some people bought and allowed for the nerfs to reaper shroud. (The whole premise of which is utter bs imo; a block, an in invul, an invis, or an extra dodge will grant more survivability than having a 2nd hp bar that deteriorates, but that's just me.) The loudest voice that called for nerfs to condi reaper came from the wvw crowd where a group of reapers could stack bleed stacks rivaling pre-nerf firebrand's burn stacking. Pve players ever asked for a nerf to lich form's mark of horror, granted a few people were making memes about it, but that didn't last long because it was "unintended game play", and the change to plaguelands came from left field. Granted most people had problems with transformation skills for several reasons, but none of us expected what anet did.

    My problem is that in literally every thread about Reaper's Raid performance there are invariably several posters saying that they would be totally ok with trading survivability for DPS, which is literally just affirming the dev's misguided notions about necro's defensive capabilities.

    If the raid community would just say "give us moar DPS" I wouldn't have a issue, but instead the raiders are like "we'll trade X for more DPS" where X is always something that's really important for other gamemodes. And this behavior is limited only to necro community, none of the other class communities constantly ask Anet to take stuff away from them.

    It's funny that you say this, and I'm not sure if it's really true about the other classes bargaining, or not, but it's definitely visible within the Necro community, indeed. Although I don't think it's the community to blame though, I think it's the pure NEGLECT from ANet since 2012 for the Necro in PvE. At some stage you're just going to try to lower yourself to their level and hope that they will then finally listen to you. Even if you know that you only deserve huge buffs, you some kind of know that they won't listen anyway, so maybe they will, if you present yourself vulnerable. It's human nature!
    I don't think there is any other class out there which has been systematically ignored or even outright overall nerfed since the very beginning of the game as the Necro is in PvE! The Necro has (save those couple of weeks after a launch, and because of so called 'bugs') NEVER been in the meta in PvE endgame: be it raids, T4 fractals or even dungeons back in the day! So I can more than imagine that the Necro community is at some stage going to be desperate (or at least the PvE part of it, which imo is still the biggest part)! And you do funny things when you're desperate. I think I even suggested a change to ask for defensive nerfs (making shroud and/or life force punishing but giving us (far) more dps in return), just in order to actually get them (=ANet) listen to us, but no, still they don't: leaving us atm in the worst spot ever (hmm, not sure about the ever part: there's so many 'worst spot moments' to choose from ...)!

  • Sephylon.4938Sephylon.4938 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Warcry.1596 said:
    I play power in raid content, among other content like T4s and CMs. Am I not supposed to? :(

    compare your dps with that of others. I will agree that most pugs in fractals are horrible, very rarely was I not top dps in t4s pre this nerf to scourge. But if you aren't bottom of the dps in raids, then all I can say is that you're either the best of the best, pulling off golem levels of dps, or that you're playing with horrible people, most likely pugs. Or possibly both.

    I am a giant tomato filled with love. I have come to sell you a house made out of pancakes.

  • ZeftheWicked.3076ZeftheWicked.3076 Member ✭✭✭✭

    As i said before: "more dps for something" should be a player's choice done via traits. Then those that are ok with the deal pick it, those that aren't stay tanky but hit less hard.

    Hardcoding such things into a profession will obviously make one side of the fence livid.

  • @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @Warcry.1596 said:
    I play power in raid content, among other content like T4s and CMs. Am I not supposed to? :(

    compare your dps with that of others. I will agree that most pugs in fractals are horrible, very rarely was I not top dps in t4s pre this nerf to scourge. But if you aren't bottom of the dps in raids, then all I can say is that you're either the best of the best, pulling off golem levels of dps, or that you're playing with horrible people, most likely pugs. Or possibly both.

    I don't know how to compare my DPS to others. I don't even know how much I'm dealing, i just make sure I am always dealing damage whatever way I can. I don't pug anymore due to volatility of groups and how soon people give up.

    I just play what I enjoy as long as content is beatable. Like in PvP for example I personally can't win with power, so i use Condi.

    "He shall make whole that which was torn asunder,
    Restore that which was lost, and all shall be as one."

  • Arzurag.7506Arzurag.7506 Member ✭✭✭

    @Warcry.1596 said:

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @Warcry.1596 said:
    I play power in raid content, among other content like T4s and CMs. Am I not supposed to? :(

    compare your dps with that of others. I will agree that most pugs in fractals are horrible, very rarely was I not top dps in t4s pre this nerf to scourge. But if you aren't bottom of the dps in raids, then all I can say is that you're either the best of the best, pulling off golem levels of dps, or that you're playing with horrible people, most likely pugs. Or possibly both.

    I don't know how to compare my DPS to others. I don't even know how much I'm dealing, i just make sure I am always dealing damage whatever way I can. I don't pug anymore due to volatility of groups and how soon people give up.

    I just play what I enjoy as long as content is beatable. Like in PvP for example I personally can't win with power, so i use Condi.

    Give this guy an award for doing it right.^^

    "I´m not big on sermons nor words, Broken bones teach better lessons and speak for themselves."

  • shagwell.1349shagwell.1349 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lahmia.2193 said:

    @vicious.5683 said:
    Sad part is Power Reaper is still trash tier in PVE.

    I'd happily take a power reaper that was trash in pvp and wvw but top tier in pve.

    Why not both. Many classes have three sometimes four builds in the different areas of the game. When I play my guard I have a power build for roaming that's great, I have a condition build that's great, I have two zerg builds that are great, I have two great pve builds, at least two pvp builds, etc. On Necro I have to be condi scourge.

    To be honest I always preferred playing GS power reaper and I hate the shade mechanic.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Warcry.1596 said:

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @Warcry.1596 said:
    I play power in raid content, among other content like T4s and CMs. Am I not supposed to? :(

    compare your dps with that of others. I will agree that most pugs in fractals are horrible, very rarely was I not top dps in t4s pre this nerf to scourge. But if you aren't bottom of the dps in raids, then all I can say is that you're either the best of the best, pulling off golem levels of dps, or that you're playing with horrible people, most likely pugs. Or possibly both.

    I don't know how to compare my DPS to others. I don't even know how much I'm dealing, i just make sure I am always dealing damage whatever way I can. I don't pug anymore due to volatility of groups and how soon people give up.

    I just play what I enjoy as long as content is beatable. Like in PvP for example I personally can't win with power, so i use Condi.

    More people should follow this example. You don't need to know how to compare you DPS to others to play necro in whatever content you want; that's the way the game is designed. This game was MADE for people like this.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

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