Anet why are you so fixed on making power reaper a thing in Raids?

[Vlad Morbius.1759]

"We'll probably look at some of them to see if they can go game-wide. Our first focus for this release was on splits only. But as we revise the list, a few old splits and maybe some new ones might get changed to game-wide.Ben PhongluangthamGame Designer""ANET_BenPWe'll be doing revisions to our plans over the next week. Some old splits and some of these new splits may be changed to game-wide."

What part of game wide changes are you not understanding exactly?

[DeceiverX.8361]

Vlad, what you're quoting has no relevance to what you're arguing. If anything, necro becomes less-viable with game-wide changes because other classes which dominate in PvE under-perform in PvP/WvW.

[Brujeria.7536]

Hmmm lets be real here. They are actually not THAT far off. What reaper needs to be viable in raids:

• More damage. This is a no brainer, the damage should be equal to BS Warrior
• Trait changes: 1. Buff to Vampiric Presence Base numbers + Increase to 10 targets 2. Reapers Onslaught: Gives always 150 bonus ferocity to the reaper and 5-10 allies. The ferocity is doubled while in shroud (only for the necro) 3. Vampiric Rituals: Add function: Enemies standing in one of your wells take 10% increased damage. Solid group dps buff.
• Skill changes: Add an Elite Well. Reduce base well cooldowns. Add Pulsing Protection to Well of Blood.

That way power reaper has: solid offensive group support (+10% damage in wells, 150 ferocity for group, added damage with vampiric presence), solid defensive group support (high protection uptime, heal over time with vampiric presence, rezzsupport with well of blood, the choice of rezzpull) and BS like damage. Also some decent CC.

Now, if they also add the reduced cooldown spectral grasp you have 2 reliable tools to pull adds / do mechanics. If they tweak / change the signets a bit you could potentially have an option in spite to go for more personal dps or some other form of support as these line does not conflict with the "support". Then fine tune Soul Reaping to give some personal damage modifiers (there are many garbage traits in this line) and you have a decent raid spec, being able to support (reaper, blood magic, spite) or dealing damage (spite, reaper, soul reaping). Grandmaster traits in spite and reaper should obviously be a choice between support or more personal dps.

[Obtena.7952]

@"Vlad Morbius.1759" said:"We'll probably look at some of them to see if they can go game-wide. Our first focus for this release was on splits only. But as we revise the list, a few old splits and maybe some new ones might get changed to game-wide.Ben PhongluangthamGame Designer""ANET_BenPWe'll be doing revisions to our plans over the next week. Some old splits and some of these new splits may be changed to game-wide."

What part of game wide changes are you not understanding exactly?

@DeceiverX.8361 said:Vlad, what you're quoting has no relevance to what you're arguing. If anything, necro becomes less-viable with game-wide changes because other classes which dominate in PvE under-perform in PvP/WvW.

Not only that but for some reason, he's assumed that game-wide changes is going to bring all classes closer together in performance in PVE ... he's read WAY too much into what Ben is saying here.

[Murdock.6547]

@"Brujeria.7536" said:Hmmm lets be real here. They are actually not THAT far off. What reaper needs to be viable in raids:

• More damage. This is a no brainer, the damage should be equal to BS Warrior
• Trait changes: 1. Buff to Vampiric Presence Base numbers + Increase to 10 targets 2. Reapers Onslaught: Gives always 150 bonus ferocity to the reaper and 5-10 allies. The ferocity is doubled while in shroud (only for the necro) 3. Vampiric Rituals: Add function: Enemies standing in one of your wells take 10% increased damage. Solid group dps buff.
• Skill changes: Add an Elite Well. Reduce base well cooldowns. Add Pulsing Protection to Well of Blood.

That way power reaper has: solid offensive group support (+10% damage in wells, 150 ferocity for group, added damage with vampiric presence), solid defensive group support (high protection uptime, heal over time with vampiric presence, rezzsupport with well of blood, the choice of rezzpull) and BS like damage. Also some decent CC.

Now, if they also add the reduced cooldown spectral grasp you have 2 reliable tools to pull adds / do mechanics. If they tweak / change the signets a bit you could potentially have an option in spite to go for more personal dps or some other form of support as these line does not conflict with the "support". Then fine tune Soul Reaping to give some personal damage modifiers (there are many garbage traits in this line) and you have a decent raid spec, being able to support (reaper, blood magic, spite) or dealing damage (spite, reaper, soul reaping). Grandmaster traits in spite and reaper should obviously be a choice between support or more personal dps.

These changes are bandaid, bad, or outright insane.Necro (power) needs one thing that is its own. Vamp aura is a nice step towards that. It may even be enough as is. Youd know this be the case or not if your group tried new things.

But back on to your post.10% to all ally damage. Are you an absolute nut? Assuming it stacks with all wells thats a 40% dps increase for the entire raid. Thats fucking batty. And if it doesnt you can space wells to ensure 100% uptime for the entire raid. 10% more damage for 10 people.

[Dadnir.5038]

I said it before but making reaper a good dps in PvE is extremly simple. You just need a PvE only change that say:

• Chilling nova: reduce ICD to 5 seconds (PvE only). improve base chill duration from 1 second up to 3 seconds (PvE only).

And a game wide change to reaper's onslaught, changing it to:

• Reaper's onslaught: Might stacks now also grant you ferocity (10 ferocity in PvP/WvW, 15-20 ferocity in PvE)

2 changes and reaper is an ok dps in PvE.

As for the support, VP will always underperform as a dps tool and an healing tool due to the design of the life siphons in themself. The best thing that could happen to this trait would be to see the damage part of the effect disappear to free to healing part.

[Brujeria.7536]

@Murdock.6547 said:

@"Brujeria.7536" said:Hmmm lets be real here. They are actually not THAT far off. What reaper needs to be viable in raids:

• More damage. This is a no brainer, the damage should be equal to BS Warrior
• Trait changes: 1. Buff to Vampiric Presence Base numbers + Increase to 10 targets 2. Reapers Onslaught: Gives always 150 bonus ferocity to the reaper and 5-10 allies. The ferocity is doubled while in shroud (only for the necro) 3. Vampiric Rituals: Add function: Enemies standing in one of your wells take 10% increased damage. Solid group dps buff.
• Skill changes: Add an Elite Well. Reduce base well cooldowns. Add Pulsing Protection to Well of Blood.

That way power reaper has: solid offensive group support (+10% damage in wells, 150 ferocity for group, added damage with vampiric presence), solid defensive group support (high protection uptime, heal over time with vampiric presence, rezzsupport with well of blood, the choice of rezzpull) and BS like damage. Also some decent CC.

Now, if they also add the reduced cooldown spectral grasp you have 2 reliable tools to pull adds / do mechanics. If they tweak / change the signets a bit you could potentially have an option in spite to go for more personal dps or some other form of support as these line does not conflict with the "support". Then fine tune Soul Reaping to give some personal damage modifiers (there are many garbage traits in this line) and you have a decent raid spec, being able to support (reaper, blood magic, spite) or dealing damage (spite, reaper, soul reaping). Grandmaster traits in spite and reaper should obviously be a choice between support or more personal dps.

These changes are bandaid, bad, or outright insane.Necro (power) needs one thing that is its own. Vamp aura is a nice step towards that. It may even be enough as is. Youd know this be the case or not if your group tried new things.

But back on to your post.10% to all ally damage. Are you an absolute nut? Assuming it stacks with all wells thats a 40% dps increase for the entire raid. Thats kitten batty. And if it doesnt you can space wells to ensure 100% uptime for the entire raid. 10% more damage for 10 people.

10% more damage is reasonable, really. BS gives 300+ flat power +condi damage, ferocity and precision which equals more then a 10% damage increase. Also, at any point in the fight, no skillfull application needed, not paying attention to where the boss is moving etc. Just stand there, slap banners in the middle and go.

[Dadnir.5038]

@Brujeria.7536 said:

@Murdock.6547 said:

@Brujeria.7536 said:Hmmm lets be real here. They are actually not THAT far off. What reaper needs to be viable in raids:

• More damage. This is a no brainer, the damage should be equal to BS Warrior
• Trait changes: 1. Buff to Vampiric Presence Base numbers + Increase to 10 targets 2. Reapers Onslaught: Gives always 150 bonus ferocity to the reaper and 5-10 allies. The ferocity is doubled while in shroud (only for the necro) 3. Vampiric Rituals: Add function: Enemies standing in one of your wells take 10% increased damage. Solid group dps buff.
• Skill changes: Add an Elite Well. Reduce base well cooldowns. Add Pulsing Protection to Well of Blood.

That way power reaper has: solid offensive group support (+10% damage in wells, 150 ferocity for group, added damage with vampiric presence), solid defensive group support (high protection uptime, heal over time with vampiric presence, rezzsupport with well of blood, the choice of rezzpull) and BS like damage. Also some decent CC.

Now, if they also add the reduced cooldown spectral grasp you have 2 reliable tools to pull adds / do mechanics. If they tweak / change the signets a bit you could potentially have an option in spite to go for more personal dps or some other form of support as these line does not conflict with the "support". Then fine tune Soul Reaping to give some personal damage modifiers (there are many garbage traits in this line) and you have a decent raid spec, being able to support (reaper, blood magic, spite) or dealing damage (spite, reaper, soul reaping). Grandmaster traits in spite and reaper should obviously be a choice between support or more personal dps.

These changes are bandaid, bad, or outright insane.Necro (power) needs one thing that is its own. Vamp aura is a nice step towards that. It may even be enough as is. Youd know this be the case or not if your group tried new things.

But back on to your post.10% to all ally damage. Are you an absolute nut? Assuming it stacks with all wells thats a 40% dps increase for the entire raid. Thats kitten batty. And if it doesnt you can space wells to ensure 100% uptime for the entire raid. 10% more damage for 10 people.

10% more damage is reasonable, really. BS gives 300+ flat power +condi damage, ferocity and precision which equals more then a 10% damage increase. Also, at any point in the fight, no skillfull application needed, not paying attention to where the boss is moving etc. Just stand there, slap banners in the middle and go.

However, being mighty, inspiring allies on the battlefield do not fit the thematic of the necromancer. Strength is, thematically, a warrior thing. 10% damage increase do not fit the necromancer thematically and is something that would be "bad" for the game as a whole. A good example is that anet removed the 10% damage increase from druid for this very reason.

Now this would still be bad design but, what fit the necromancer thematically is to reduce it's opponent resilience to damage. Thematically the necromancer is not someone who impact it's allies but someone who "wither" it's foes making them frail and brittle.

[Brujeria.7536]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Brujeria.7536 said:

@Murdock.6547 said:

@Brujeria.7536 said:Hmmm lets be real here. They are actually not THAT far off. What reaper needs to be viable in raids:

• More damage. This is a no brainer, the damage should be equal to BS Warrior
• Trait changes: 1. Buff to Vampiric Presence Base numbers + Increase to 10 targets 2. Reapers Onslaught: Gives always 150 bonus ferocity to the reaper and 5-10 allies. The ferocity is doubled while in shroud (only for the necro) 3. Vampiric Rituals: Add function: Enemies standing in one of your wells take 10% increased damage. Solid group dps buff.
• Skill changes: Add an Elite Well. Reduce base well cooldowns. Add Pulsing Protection to Well of Blood.

That way power reaper has: solid offensive group support (+10% damage in wells, 150 ferocity for group, added damage with vampiric presence), solid defensive group support (high protection uptime, heal over time with vampiric presence, rezzsupport with well of blood, the choice of rezzpull) and BS like damage. Also some decent CC.

Now, if they also add the reduced cooldown spectral grasp you have 2 reliable tools to pull adds / do mechanics. If they tweak / change the signets a bit you could potentially have an option in spite to go for more personal dps or some other form of support as these line does not conflict with the "support". Then fine tune Soul Reaping to give some personal damage modifiers (there are many garbage traits in this line) and you have a decent raid spec, being able to support (reaper, blood magic, spite) or dealing damage (spite, reaper, soul reaping). Grandmaster traits in spite and reaper should obviously be a choice between support or more personal dps.

These changes are bandaid, bad, or outright insane.Necro (power) needs one thing that is its own. Vamp aura is a nice step towards that. It may even be enough as is. Youd know this be the case or not if your group tried new things.

But back on to your post.10% to all ally damage. Are you an absolute nut? Assuming it stacks with all wells thats a 40% dps increase for the entire raid. Thats kitten batty. And if it doesnt you can space wells to ensure 100% uptime for the entire raid. 10% more damage for 10 people.

10% more damage is reasonable, really. BS gives 300+ flat power +condi damage, ferocity and precision which equals more then a 10% damage increase. Also, at any point in the fight, no skillfull application needed, not paying attention to where the boss is moving etc. Just stand there, slap banners in the middle and go.

However, being mighty, inspiring allies on the battlefield do not fit the thematic of the necromancer. Strength is, thematically, a warrior thing. 10% damage increase do not fit the necromancer thematically and is something that would be "bad" for the game as a whole. A good example is that anet removed the 10% damage increase from druid for this very reason.

Now this would still be bad design but, what fit the necromancer thematically is to reduce it's opponent resilience to damage. Thematically the necromancer is not someone who impact it's allies but someone who "wither" it's foes making them frail and brittle.

It doesnt matter much how they name it in game, they can call it defiled or withered as long as its some potent offensive group support in the end. Im usually all for thematic solutions. But Anet had 5 years to do that and they still fail to deliver. At this point thematicly unfitting solutions are the lesser evil, being absolutly bottomline in raids and PvE is the real problem.

[Obtena.7952]

5 years or not, Anet is definitely going to stick the concept of the class; offensive buffing is simply not what we do. If they don't, then the idea of the class is just in names and labels only.

I think if there is a necro team 'love spreading' development, it's going to be along the lines of life stealing, reviving and 'on kill' effects. Lame, a little, but that's what necro concept is about. Personally, I would love to see life stealing get more attention, as it differentiates itself from healing and isn't affected by poison (or shouldn't be).

[Murdock.6547]

@Obtena.7952 said:5 years or not, Anet is definitely going to stick the concept of the class; offensive buffing is simply not what we do. If they don't, then the idea of the class is just in names and labels only.

I think if there is a necro team 'love spreading' development, it's going to be along the lines of life stealing, reviving and 'on kill' effects. Lame, a little, but that's what necro concept is about. Personally, I would love to see life stealing get more attention, as it differentiates itself from healing and isn't affected by poison (or shouldn't be).

It is, sadly. But its also affected by outgoing healing.Also the damage portion shouldnt be discounted. Its true damage.It ignores toughness entirely and certain invulns.

[Nimon.7840]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Brujeria.7536 said:

@Murdock.6547 said:

@Brujeria.7536 said:Hmmm lets be real here. They are actually not THAT far off. What reaper needs to be viable in raids:

• More damage. This is a no brainer, the damage should be equal to BS Warrior
• Trait changes: 1. Buff to Vampiric Presence Base numbers + Increase to 10 targets 2. Reapers Onslaught: Gives always 150 bonus ferocity to the reaper and 5-10 allies. The ferocity is doubled while in shroud (only for the necro) 3. Vampiric Rituals: Add function: Enemies standing in one of your wells take 10% increased damage. Solid group dps buff.
• Skill changes: Add an Elite Well. Reduce base well cooldowns. Add Pulsing Protection to Well of Blood.

That way power reaper has: solid offensive group support (+10% damage in wells, 150 ferocity for group, added damage with vampiric presence), solid defensive group support (high protection uptime, heal over time with vampiric presence, rezzsupport with well of blood, the choice of rezzpull) and BS like damage. Also some decent CC.

Now, if they also add the reduced cooldown spectral grasp you have 2 reliable tools to pull adds / do mechanics. If they tweak / change the signets a bit you could potentially have an option in spite to go for more personal dps or some other form of support as these line does not conflict with the "support". Then fine tune Soul Reaping to give some personal damage modifiers (there are many garbage traits in this line) and you have a decent raid spec, being able to support (reaper, blood magic, spite) or dealing damage (spite, reaper, soul reaping). Grandmaster traits in spite and reaper should obviously be a choice between support or more personal dps.

These changes are bandaid, bad, or outright insane.Necro (power) needs one thing that is its own. Vamp aura is a nice step towards that. It may even be enough as is. Youd know this be the case or not if your group tried new things.

But back on to your post.10% to all ally damage. Are you an absolute nut? Assuming it stacks with all wells thats a 40% dps increase for the entire raid. Thats kitten batty. And if it doesnt you can space wells to ensure 100% uptime for the entire raid. 10% more damage for 10 people.

10% more damage is reasonable, really. BS gives 300+ flat power +condi damage, ferocity and precision which equals more then a 10% damage increase. Also, at any point in the fight, no skillfull application needed, not paying attention to where the boss is moving etc. Just stand there, slap banners in the middle and go.

However, being mighty, inspiring allies on the battlefield do not fit the thematic of the necromancer. Strength is, thematically, a warrior thing. 10% damage increase do not fit the necromancer thematically and is something that would be "bad" for the game as a whole. A good example is that anet removed the 10% damage increase from druid for this very reason.

Now this would still be bad design but, what fit the necromancer thematically is to reduce it's opponent resilience to damage. Thematically the necromancer is not someone who impact it's allies but someone who "wither" it's foes making them frail and brittle.

It would fit perfectly. Ever read the discriptions?Necromancers use lifeforce to strenghten their allies. Well i dont sew that right now...

[Dadnir.5038]

@Nimon.7840 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Brujeria.7536 said:

@Murdock.6547 said:

@Brujeria.7536 said:Hmmm lets be real here. They are actually not THAT far off. What reaper needs to be viable in raids:

• More damage. This is a no brainer, the damage should be equal to BS Warrior
• Trait changes: 1. Buff to Vampiric Presence Base numbers + Increase to 10 targets 2. Reapers Onslaught: Gives always 150 bonus ferocity to the reaper and 5-10 allies. The ferocity is doubled while in shroud (only for the necro) 3. Vampiric Rituals: Add function: Enemies standing in one of your wells take 10% increased damage. Solid group dps buff.
• Skill changes: Add an Elite Well. Reduce base well cooldowns. Add Pulsing Protection to Well of Blood.

That way power reaper has: solid offensive group support (+10% damage in wells, 150 ferocity for group, added damage with vampiric presence), solid defensive group support (high protection uptime, heal over time with vampiric presence, rezzsupport with well of blood, the choice of rezzpull) and BS like damage. Also some decent CC.

Now, if they also add the reduced cooldown spectral grasp you have 2 reliable tools to pull adds / do mechanics. If they tweak / change the signets a bit you could potentially have an option in spite to go for more personal dps or some other form of support as these line does not conflict with the "support". Then fine tune Soul Reaping to give some personal damage modifiers (there are many garbage traits in this line) and you have a decent raid spec, being able to support (reaper, blood magic, spite) or dealing damage (spite, reaper, soul reaping). Grandmaster traits in spite and reaper should obviously be a choice between support or more personal dps.

These changes are bandaid, bad, or outright insane.Necro (power) needs one thing that is its own. Vamp aura is a nice step towards that. It may even be enough as is. Youd know this be the case or not if your group tried new things.

But back on to your post.10% to all ally damage. Are you an absolute nut? Assuming it stacks with all wells thats a 40% dps increase for the entire raid. Thats kitten batty. And if it doesnt you can space wells to ensure 100% uptime for the entire raid. 10% more damage for 10 people.

10% more damage is reasonable, really. BS gives 300+ flat power +condi damage, ferocity and precision which equals more then a 10% damage increase. Also, at any point in the fight, no skillfull application needed, not paying attention to where the boss is moving etc. Just stand there, slap banners in the middle and go.

However, being mighty, inspiring allies on the battlefield do not fit the thematic of the necromancer. Strength is, thematically, a warrior thing. 10% damage increase do not fit the necromancer thematically and is something that would be "bad" for the game as a whole. A good example is that anet removed the 10% damage increase from druid for this very reason.

Now this would still be bad design but, what fit the necromancer thematically is to reduce it's opponent resilience to damage. Thematically the necromancer is not someone who impact it's allies but someone who "wither" it's foes making them frail and brittle.

It would fit perfectly. Ever read the discriptions?Necromancers use lifeforce to strenghten their allies. Well i dont sew that right now...

Never, indeed.

The main issue that I have with the profession's descriptions is that they've been written before GW2's beta and never changed. In the case of the necromancer, for example, the shroud was it's down state which it no longer is. It made sense at that time to say that the shroud allowed the necromancer to "cheat" death, it no longer make sense. And for all I know, the necromancer never used life force to strengthen it's allies, himself sure but it's allies never. Before HoT and/or VP, I can't recall of any kind of support that "use life force to strengthen their allies". Now, with scourge and barrier, maybe, but that's all and it's not even close to be good outside of WvW.

The best is to forget what anet wrote on professions, it's just marketting anyway and not even close to reality. Beside, their hidden design for each professions seem really far off from what they wrote at that time.

[Lexan.5930]

pushing power reaping in pve is nice but i agree that survivability in pvp is terrible. Theres no lighting flash or blink or blocks or invulnerability if you mess up a rotation, burst or need to get away if a teamate goes down. Necro's are just too easy to focus down with all their limited survival options and pretty much forever depend on their teamates to carry them with support.

On the other hand, playing power reaper in raids is a lot of fun. Make sure to keep chill on the target at all times and rotate between axe 2, GS and shroud an you can make some decent dps. Not holo forge or elle, but still fun to play.

[Dadnir.5038]

@Lexan.5930 said:On the other hand, playing power reaper in raids is a lot of fun. Make sure to keep chill on the target at all times and rotate between axe 2, GS and shroud an you can make some decent dps. Not holo forge or elle, but still fun to play.

Not holo forge, or ele or power mesmer or power warrior or power thief or revenant or power guardian... Yeah still far behind most other professions.

[Idaeus.9564]

@Nimon.7840 said:Well. I thinks its nice, being able to play power reaper in raids. Because you know, its intended to be a power class.And for pvp/ wvw roaming it rlly needed the dmg buffs to keep up with the power creep thats going on.

The problem is: you still wont be able to kill any firebrand with it, cause he will just heal back up. And kill you by passivly adding burning onto you.

Same goes for good elementalist players.Good ranger playersGood thiefs ( well you wont even hit them once)Good mesmers (same as thief)Good revenants..........

Well, i think you will only win like 30% of the fights.But against equally skilled players with other professions you will loose more often.

But the thing is, thats not anything new. Its the same as it was before the changes

Currently playing boon corrupt reaper and firebrand is my second favorite flavor.

[Methuselah.4376]

Could we please stop having players who only play PvP moaning about the changes? Honestly, bugger off! For PvE these changes are good, and I use Berserker amulet in PvP and still do well so clearly Reaper is not that vulnerable. If you gonna play dumb and enter a 3 vs 1 with CC heavy classes, you will lose whatever you play.

[Crinn.7864]

@Methuselah.4376 said:I use Berserker amulet in PvP and still do well

You realize that saying is a strike against your argument.

This is a list of the good matchups Reaper has at a high level of play:

• Guardian
• ???

[Sephylon.4938]

Necroing this old thread?

[needbeer.1687]

@NekoNoKoi.9137 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:Both this recent patch and the November patch both brought changes that where clearly intended to improve power reaper in PvE formats, with the side effect of destroying Reaper's sustain in PvP.I do PvP/WvW exclusively on Power Reaper since Hot Release and I can say that when you look at the big picture the spec became more viable.

The last patch changed nothing for Power Reaper except the corrupt table but was still a huge buff because a lot of counter-specs were nerfed - esp. Scourge and Mirage. Warrior and Power/Shiro is a doable matchup now because you can switch your utilites from anti-condi to anti-power while still being capable of killing a Scourge. I would even say that at the moment there do not exist any hardcounters to Power Reaper. So much about 1v1...

When we consider team scenarios Power Reaper performs great as long as you don't team up with low-fight-presence specs like Thief, LB-Ranger or Mesmer. You need someone right next to you for support - it does not matter if it is a Warrior, Revenant, Guardian, Engineer... as long as it's no Teef.

• warrior and power/shiro is a doable matchup
• still capable of killing a scourge
• do not exist any hardcounters to power reaper

boiCan I have what you're smoking??

i want some to. i find thief or mesmer to be a great partner in wvw. i just put on my tanky gear and act as bait.

[Ghostt.1293]

its because we main necros have been asking for this since raids

[Obtena.7952]

The question doesn't really make sense. Why shouldn't it be? What even makes you think Anet makes changes on class because of raids? This is how it works:

1. Anet makes a change
2. If it makes something good for a specific game mode, then people use it

That's it. There isn't anything that should give anyone an indication Anet does things because of raids or whatever. They make changes because they see something that doesn't work how they want it to work.