Anet why are you so fixed on making power reaper a thing in Raids?

[Lahmia.2193]

@Warcry.1596 said:

@Lahmia.2193 said:

@Warcry.1596 said:

@nekretaal.6485 said:I don't think power Reaper has ever been raid quality. It doesn't have enough damage or utility.

I would love to bring my power Reaper to raids.

So do it. As I stated above, I do. Why don't you?

Because people resent other people not pulling their weight. And bringing a subpar build is often a sign of a player wanting a free run.

Well I definitely can't speak to that as I've never experienced such a thing before =/ usually I get compliments for doing well. Sorry you've had unfortunate experiences but generally mine have been extremely positive.

I never really knew people cared what was brought for builds. Aside from a healer of sorts and a tank.

I've not been on the receiving end of it but I've seen people that have. Most of the time because they lacked flexibility. They'd be asked if they had something else they could play but they said no. So the group said okay and started but it was obvious said player was inexperienced despite the lfg asking for experienced players. After a few screw ups or wipes, they would be dropped. Now again this isn't always because of their build. But as I said before, it is often a sign of inexperience.

[KrHome.1920]

@"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:As i said before: "more dps for something" should be a player's choice done via traits. Then those that are ok with the deal pick it, those that aren't stay tanky but hit less hard.Scourge traits:111: self sustain and sustain support222: damage333: utility

Most traitlines in the game work like this. The traitlines itself follow a specific theme and within the traitlines you have mostly the choices damage, sustain, utility when picking single traits.

That's how it should be done but unfortunately ANet is not very competent in the implementation - they try, but the results are bad most of the time: Awaken the Pain is badly implemented, Vampiric Presence is badly implemented.

[ZDragon.3046]

@KrHome.1920 said:

@"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:As i said before: "more dps for something" should be a player's choice done via traits. Then those that are ok with the deal pick it, those that aren't stay tanky but hit less hard.Scourge traits:111: self sustain and sustain support222: damage333: utility

Most traitlines in the game work like this. The traitlines itself follow a specific theme and within the traitlines you have mostly the choices damage, sustain, utility when picking single traits.

That's how it should be done but unfortunately ANet is not very competent in the implementation - they try, but the results are bad most of the time: Awaken the Pain is badly implemented, Vampiric Presence is badly implemented.

I wouldn't say things are badly implemented they are just limited too much in fear of them being to strong. Instead of letting them be strong then toning them down in the next balance they tone them low start or limit them with too much of safety net and of course next balance change comes around "Looks good to us." and its forgotten. Where as most other professions things are changed in a way where they are often too strong for a long period of time then toned down to be decent later on down the line.

If awaken the pain was more potent it would be fine if it simply shifted all bonus points to power damage and none to condi damage it would be an excellent trait. It was a good attempt and in a way it bosted axe damage by a free 10% across any build by removing the old trait.

Vampiric was not bad either its just limited by a very bad cooldown.All they need to do here is remove the ICD and remove the shroud boost effect to make up for removing the icd and its numbers would be :+1:

[KrHome.1920]

@ZDragon.3046 said:I wouldn't say things are badly implemented they are just limited too much in fear of them being to strong.That's what I am talking about. All they had to do was to run some Golem tests with a metabattle Power Reaper with variant numbers of AtP and VP and they could have positioned Power Reaper at 30 or 32k DPS - and everybody would be happy. They did not...

PvP balancing might be tricky, but PvE balancing is the easiest thing in the world.

[Anchoku.8142]

Why not request a raid design that plays to Reaper's best?

Power-Reaper has very good multi-target sustained dps and sustained defense when Defiance is not in play. Hybrid-Reaper is even higher. Single, large hit-box opponents with defiance is a significant nerf to both dps and sustain while a single, small hit-box opponent is even more of a nerf. A Reaper's high sustained trash mob dps may be the reason its raid dps is where it is. Reaper's peak dps requires 5+ targets in melee range.

The best raid type to demonstrate this would be a tower-defense style with a large number of veterans, and lower, mobs advancing in an enclosed space. I am reasonably confident Reaper's sustainable dps would be top tier.

If raids were like WvW, Necro would belong to the meta.

[Dadnir.5038]

@"KrHome.1920" said:All they had to do was to run some Golem tests with a metabattle Power Reaper with variant numbers of AtP and VP and they could have positioned Power Reaper at 30 or 32k DPS - and everybody would be happy. They did not...

Well... That's an optimistic point of view. Especially since reaper's optimal damage depend on a 100% chill uptime. You'd have soon players asking to lengthen chill uptime PvE only (which would be an understandable request after all) and then the matter of the shroud uptime and reaper onslaught would come back on the table... Not to say that some cheeky boys would have wrecked some a** in WvW, stiring some cry that would soon reach PvP... etc.

VP is a dangerous tool to be used to improve the necromancer's dps and to be honest, the fact that it doesn't crit is part of the fact that it's dangerous. As for AtP, it already reached the ceiling of what they can do with that (Sure we can imagine even less condi damage for even more power damage but it wouldn't be meaningfull).

In it's current form, a way to make power reaper a thing would be to change Reaper onslaugth to something like:Reaper onslaught: Now your might stack also grant you ferocity. Ferocity per might stack between 15 and 20.This change might hurt PvP, I'm not sure.

And modifying chilling nova (PvE only) to something like:Chilling nova: ICD reduced to 5 seconds, Base chill duration increased to 2-3 seconds.

And only then you migth have a "power reaper" able to pull out reliably, in PvE, 30-32k. But you'd have to love being the necrocopter obviously.

[ZDragon.3046]

@KrHome.1920 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:I wouldn't say things are badly implemented they are just limited too much in fear of them being to strong.That's what I am talking about. All they had to do was to run some Golem tests with a metabattle Power Reaper with variant numbers of AtP and VP and they could have positioned Power Reaper at 30 or 32k DPS - and everybody would be happy. They did not...

PvP balancing might be tricky, but PvE balancing is the easiest thing in the world.

Ughhh... See here is the problem in most parts of the game most professions will never do maximum dps for very long periods of time as seen in raids and a few endgame bosses that allow it. Golem test only apply to damage under the best conditions provided they dont attack, force the player to move, or move away, etc.YOU CAN NOT DO PROPER BALANCE BASED ON A GOLEM dps TEST.GOLEM TEST CANT TEST A PLAYERS SKILL (outside of memorizing buttons to press).

People dont want necro to do more damage to simply 30-32k dps specifically people just want necro to hit equally as hard when spec'ed to similar conditions as other professions. This does no necessarily mean hitting 32k+ dps for long periods of time on a immobile golem

It means if i build like a glass cannon i should hit hard af, not moderately hard or semi hard or kinda hardWhere as other professions can building semi durable or very durable and hit just as hard if not harder than you when you build glass. Its simply unbalanced in that aspect.

Most devs dont consider how players will use the tools given to them because they simply cannot predict based on all those choices during development. They usually pick a few things they like best and make sure those work. Then try other things to make sure they are okish and wont flop completely or have 0 use in the game. They cant predict the 100's of combinations the games community will come up with in their own minds.This is why I say they should over tune things, then put them in, let the community use them in general in all aspects of the game (NOT JUST ON TEST GOLEM) then follow up from there with what needs to be toned down or up.This is usually what happens for many other professions (Might makes right, warriors original stances, ele back in the day, Firebrands tomes, Old condi mirage, and if you even want to count it bugged scourge but i wouldn't count that) etc etc

But in most cases necro has this bad habit of getting reworked traits with bad trade offs that have very hard limiting factors like ICD's or even built in risk built in that dont match the reward of the trait in value. New things come in way too under tuned rather than over tuned then just get stuck that way for unreasonably long periods of time.And if its not that we have way too many tools and traits that have not been touched sense 2014/early 2015

Now you have reaper which is beaten out by nearly everything in sustain and damage, scourge which is lost between subpar dps / great team fight dps and support not excelling in either category and core which is left in the dust due to a lack of many needed QoL updates.

Ideally any profession that has a strong core right now has strong and stable e-specs with the exception to that being rev and engi who depend upon elite specs but have been tuned in such a way that it it can be made acceptable. Ideally if core rev was a strong as core warrior then a rev using glint would utterly destroy everything.

I really hate what raids have brought to this game in the long run in terms of what people look for in balance.IF you dont do 30k you need more just so you can see that number then why you will cry about why 1 profession does 0.5k-1k more than you and still need more. Im almost starting to think they should have built a damage cap into this game that every profession could easily reach but not exceed.

[Dadnir.5038]

Im almost starting to think they should have built a damage cap into this game that every profession could easily reach but not exceed.

Indeed, that wouldn't have been a bad idea.

Most devs dont consider how players will use the tools given to them because they simply cannot predict based on all those choices during development. They usually pick a few things they like best and make sure those work. Then try other things to make sure they are okish and wont flop completely or have 0 use in the game. They cant predict the 100's of combinations the games community will come up with in their own minds.

Let's be honest, in the case of the necromancer in particular, you don't need to come out from a reknown university to instantly understand that boon corruption and drawing conditions weren't tools that really fit a gamemode were there are barely any boons to corrupt and few conditions to draw to you or way to many.

The necromancer's community have been complaining about the profession's inability to perform well in PvE end game since launch. Reaper was a nice try but they should have learned from it instead of pushing even more forward with scourge. The necromancer wasn't domineering in PvP or WvW but it was a thing that didn't needed to be "stronger" there, while in PvE, it really needed something to stand out.

The issue of the necromancer in raid and more accurately in the PvE end game since launch didn't change in any way: the tools that he got aren't adapted. I understand that there was a need to tone down the boon meta in PvP/WvW but that should have been done without breaking the whole necromancer's professions. Reaper had somehow found a balanced state before PoF and only really needed the core profession to be brought to a decent level. Why d'you break 2 years of balance work to introduce a gamebreaking e-spec?

I'm sorry but there are thing that are easy to predict, some would say "obvious". Scourge was such a thing. Breaking reaper's balance state for scourge was plain stupid and using this as an excuse to make reaper lean more toward power than condition was assinine.

[Obtena.7952]

@Sephylon.4938 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Sephylon.4938 said:Wasn't your point that devs of competitive games don't care about what players play?

II said nothing about competitive games so ... I don't even know what that means in the context of PVE.

No, I did, as you post seems to say that devs shouldn't bring under performing specs in line with other specs with the excuse of "the spec is fun" and that "it's what the devs intended" with no regard for the effects it would have in an environment where one has to compete such as pvp/wvw and to some extent fractals and raids where every class is a dps class and the question becomes: why should we bring you over the other people? (All assuming equal skill on both ends) Additionally, you still haven't answered my original question: do you play competitive games; i.e games where you have to compete against other players, to fulfill an objective where there will be an indisputable team/player that won?

You are completely right. my post doesn't SEEM to say devs shouldn't bring underperforming specs to the same level of others, it DOES say it. Why? because the game is designed in a way that it's not necessary for equivalent-performance for different specs. And also ... I am avoiding that question because I don't see the relevance as GW2 isn't a competitive game for PVE. If you want to make some relation with GW2, balance and competitive gaming, just do it so we can discuss it.

@Obtena.7952 said:The only people that resent other people not pulling their weight are meta-worshippers. It's all about who you choose to play with.

Or, you know, the people who want to improve themselves and don't settle for mediocrity.

Improving the class has nothing to do with improving yourself as a player. Those two aren't EVEN close to the same thing; I'm not even going to try to explain the difference to save you the loss of face. You don't settle for mediocrity? That's funny ... and here I thought you were aware you have been playing Necro ... Obviously you do settle for mediocrity ... for 5+ years now. Let's be clear, I'm not disputing necro has lackluster DPS in PVE ... I just think it's not a big deal if you embrace how the game was designed in the first place. The argument that we MUST have equivalent performance for different classes/specs/builds/whatever just DOESN'T make sense in THIS game; it's a problem people make in their heads because of how they were 'trained' to think in other MMO's. Drop your WoW baggage and get on the train.

[DeceiverX.8361]

@Anchoku.8142 said:Why not request a raid design that plays to Reaper's best?

Power-Reaper has very good multi-target sustained dps and sustained defense when Defiance is not in play. Hybrid-Reaper is even higher. Single, large hit-box opponents with defiance is a significant nerf to both dps and sustain while a single, small hit-box opponent is even more of a nerf. A Reaper's high sustained trash mob dps may be the reason its raid dps is where it is. Reaper's peak dps requires 5+ targets in melee range.

The best raid type to demonstrate this would be a tower-defense style with a large number of veterans, and lower, mobs advancing in an enclosed space. I am reasonably confident Reaper's sustainable dps would be top tier.

If raids were like WvW, Necro would belong to the meta.

Only the last statement of your post is true, sadly. They have good AoE burst but horrendously low AoE sustained DPS compared to most other DPS builds as it is.

PvE-only players just for whatever reasons have no capacity to see how strong this class is in environments where it's allowed to fully utilize its strengths; unfortunately, due to ANet's encounter design blundering, PvE encounters have none of the things in them that allow the necromancer to do its job well, such as vast numbers of enemies, boon-dependent/spamming foes, need for AoE coverage, etc (why they're dominant in the PvP formats).

Reaper needs some major buffing in its sustain and changing as it is, but that's another story altogether. Right now the implementation does not match the vision/concepts originally designed for the spec, and thus it's weak across the board.

[Sephylon.4938]

You are completely right. my post doesn't SEEM to say devs shouldn't bring underperforming specs to the same level of others, it DOES say it. Why? because the game is >designed in a way that it's not necessary for equivalent-performance for different specs. And also ... I am avoiding that question because I don't see the relevance as GW2 >isn't a competitive game for PVE. If you want to make some relation with GW2, balance and competitive gaming, just do it so we can discuss it.

So being top or bottom doesn't matter, yet us have things that doesn't make us the bottom does? And we don't have to compete with other players playing other classes for a spot in a pug? They should just take us irregardless of performance because we're having fun?

And as to the relation between balancing and competitive gaming in gw2, what's your explanation for the .5 sec arming time that was given to shades? Or the reason as to why deathly chill turned into chill>bleed?

Improving the class has nothing to do with improving yourself as a player. Those two aren't EVEN close to the same thing; I'm not even going to try to explain the >difference to save you the loss of face.

First off, while gesture is appreciated, I have no face to save so don't hold back.Second off, Are you saying that if a class, in terms of what it can do, is improved, then we as a player won't grow and improve with it by exploring the new possibilities presented to us? That we won't work to improve ourselves by pushing the class to its limits and seeing how far we can take it? So you don't believe that the mesmer rework allowed mesmer players to grow in pve, or any game mode, and that it's more of the same old despite the changes?

You don't settle for mediocrity? That's funny ... and here I thought you were aware you have been playing Necro ... Obviously you do settle for mediocrity ... for 5+ years >now.

You assume I play nothing but necro.

Let's be clear, I'm not disputing necro has lackluster DPS in PVE ... I just think it's not a big deal if you embrace how the game was designed in the first place.

So the way you interpret it is the be all and end all of interpretations, everyone else is just plain wrong and you're the only one we should listen to when it comes to how classes should work because you totally know what you're talking about and not just inserting your own interpretation like everyone else, myself included.

The argument that we MUST have equivalent performance for different classes/specs/builds/whatever just DOESN'T make sense in THIS game; it's a problem people make >in their heads because of how they were 'trained' to think in other MMO's. Drop your WoW baggage and get on the train.

So that time my friend let me play their account for a few hours made me a meta addict and it's not just that I like being efficient and feel like I'm contributing to the group instead of just feeling like a rusted cog that others have to carry?

P.s. I only take the bus.

[Murdock.6547]

This thread hurts my head. So much wrong and biased info, so many arguements that make no sense.

People following the words of others with religious zeal, but only some of those words. A fundamental lack of understanding coming from all sides...

And most irritatingly, someone called gw2 "competitive."

Gw raids have less complexity and arguably the same buginess as WARFRAME'S. Calling PvE content "competitive" is only true for speedruns: which its been brought up time and again, is not taken seriously even by most speedrun groups.

I actually had forgotten what the OP was about. And to that I say: who knows? Power nec is strong for its braindead rota that anyone can do while also being unkillable. It was a decent starter class and once the user has xp, should either roll condi for epi, or be dropped entirely for a different class.

Thats just how raids work in most games. You cant do it without multiclassing

[ZDragon.3046]

@"Murdock.6547" said:This thread hurts my head. So much wrong and biased info, so many arguements that make no sense.

People following the words of others with religious zeal, but only some of those words. A fundamental lack of understanding coming from all sides...

And most irritatingly, someone called gw2 "competitive."

Gw raids have less complexity and arguably the same buginess as WARFRAME'S. Calling PvE content "competitive" is only true for speedruns: which its been brought up time and again, is not taken seriously even by most speedrun groups.

I actually had forgotten what the OP was about. And to that I say: who knows? Power nec is strong for its braindead rota that anyone can do while also being unkillable. It was a decent starter class and once the user has xp, should either roll condi for epi, or be dropped entirely for a different class.

Thats just how raids work in most games. You cant do it without multiclassing

The thing is this game was not originally designed without raids keep that in mind. The core professions and their first series of elite specs also probably follow this design.When most here talk about competitiveness in pve they are referring to their profession of choice and the maximum dps number it can perform under its best situation.

In many games people see that dps number as a competitive thing.In many games most classes are able to perform near the same dps under the right builds and stat conditions. (Maybe some a bit more orless if they have major unique qualities such as, Being better at aoe clear vs single target damage only)In many games the only thing that separates one from doing more or less damage by a sizable gap is the skill to play that profession to its maximum and a difference in having better gear or level.This is what is being competitive in pve comes down too. They do not mean it in the same way of pvp competitivness that i think you are thinking of.

How ever guildwars2 tried to remove alot of this from its design. If you notice the difference between exotic ascended and legendary is not extreme. Level caps are not locked based on what xpac you own or dont. Weapons across many professions have the same power effective stats the thing that modifies the damage is the professions weapon skills/triats and not the weapon itself.Everyone can loot their own instance of gear and drops from any chest or node in the world instead of it being who gets their first or having people camp certain areas for resources etc.

Ideally this game was set up to be very uncompetitive in pve this would allow players at all levels to help one another and play what they enjoyed without elitist coming into say if you dont do x/y/z. you cant run with this or that.

Thats said for the most part in pve people will still help you do things regardless of what you run but people here only want things based on raids now. Raids were a bad addition to how people seek balance in this game in the long run. I still say raids should have came with a damage cap that all professions can easily hit on multiple builds with ease. This would remove alot of the blind "We need more because warrior or mesmer does xx dps on a test golem"

[Obtena.7952]

@Sephylon.4938 said:

You are completely right. my post doesn't SEEM to say devs shouldn't bring underperforming specs to the same level of others, it DOES say it. Why? because the game is >designed in a way that it's not necessary for equivalent-performance for different specs. And also ... I am avoiding that question because I don't see the relevance as GW2 >isn't a competitive game for PVE. If you want to make some relation with GW2, balance and competitive gaming, just do it so we can discuss it.

So being top or bottom doesn't matter, yet us have things that doesn't make us the bottom does? And we don't have to compete with other players playing other classes for a spot in a pug? They should just take us irregardless of performance because we're having fun?

And as to the relation between balancing and competitive gaming in gw2, what's your explanation for the .5 sec arming time that was given to shades? Or the reason as to why deathly chill turned into chill>bleed?

Improving the class has nothing to do with improving yourself as a player. Those two aren't EVEN close to the same thing; I'm not even going to try to explain the >difference to save you the loss of face.

First off, while gesture is appreciated, I have no face to save so don't hold back.Second off, Are you saying that if a class, in terms of what it can do, is improved, then we as a player won't grow and improve with it by exploring the new possibilities presented to us? That we won't work to improve ourselves by pushing the class to its limits and seeing how far we can take it? So you don't believe that the mesmer rework allowed mesmer players to grow in pve, or any game mode, and that it's more of the same old despite the changes?

You don't settle for mediocrity? That's funny ... and here I thought you were aware you have been playing Necro ... Obviously you do settle for mediocrity ... for 5+ years >now.

You assume I play nothing but necro.

Let's be clear, I'm not disputing necro has lackluster DPS in PVE ... I just think it's not a big deal if you embrace how the game was designed in the first place.

So the way you interpret it is the be all and end all of interpretations, everyone else is just plain wrong and you're the only one we should listen to when it comes to how classes should work because you totally know what you're talking about and not just inserting your own interpretation like everyone else, myself included.

The argument that we MUST have equivalent performance for different classes/specs/builds/whatever just DOESN'T make sense in THIS game; it's a problem people make >in their heads because of how they were 'trained' to think in other MMO's. Drop your WoW baggage and get on the train.

So that time my friend let me play their account for a few hours made me a meta addict and it's not just that I like being efficient and feel like I'm contributing to the group instead of just feeling like a rusted cog that others have to carry?

P.s. I only take the bus.

I'm reading what you said .. I see nothing that changes what I've said already. The game is designed to allow people to play how they want ... and you can, successfully even. Nothing you say changes that. If you lump yourself into the group of players concerned with things that do not matter in the game to play it, that's your problem.

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@"Murdock.6547" said:This thread hurts my head. So much wrong and biased info, so many arguements that make no sense.

People following the words of others with religious zeal, but only some of those words. A fundamental lack of understanding coming from all sides...

And most irritatingly, someone called gw2 "competitive."

Gw raids have less complexity and arguably the same buginess as WARFRAME'S. Calling PvE content "competitive" is only true for speedruns: which its been brought up time and again, is not taken seriously even by most speedrun groups.

I actually had forgotten what the OP was about. And to that I say: who knows? Power nec is strong for its braindead rota that anyone can do while also being unkillable. It was a decent starter class and once the user has xp, should either roll condi for epi, or be dropped entirely for a different class.

Thats just how raids work in most games. You cant do it without multiclassing

The thing is this game was not originally designed without raids keep that in mind. The core professions and their first series of elite specs also probably follow this design.When most here talk about competitiveness in pve they are referring to their profession of choice and the maximum dps number it can perform under its best situation.

In many games people see that dps number as a competitive thing.In many games most classes are able to perform near the same dps under the right builds and stat conditions. (Maybe some a bit more orless if they have major unique qualities such as, Being better at aoe clear vs single target damage only)In many games the only thing that separates one from doing more or less damage by a sizable gap is the skill to play that profession to its maximum and a difference in having better gear or level.This is what is being competitive in pve comes down too. They do not mean it in the same way of pvp competitivness that i think you are thinking of.

How ever guildwars2 tried to remove alot of this from its design. If you notice the difference between exotic ascended and legendary is not extreme. Level caps are not locked based on what xpac you own or dont. Weapons across many professions have the same power effective stats the thing that modifies the damage is the professions weapon skills/triats and not the weapon itself.Everyone can loot their own instance of gear and drops from any chest or node in the world instead of it being who gets their first or having people camp certain areas for resources etc.

Ideally this game was set up to be very uncompetitive in pve this would allow players at all levels to help one another and play what they enjoyed without elitist coming into say if you dont do x/y/z. you cant run with this or that.

Thats said for the most part in pve people will still help you do things regardless of what you run but people here only want things based on raids now. Raids were a bad addition to how people seek balance in this game in the long run. I still say raids should have came with a damage cap that all professions can easily hit on multiple builds with ease. This would remove alot of the blind "We need more because warrior or mesmer does xx dps on a test golem"

Even within raids though ... the margin that you can complete them STILL allows players a very large margin of playing how they want. In fact, all this complaining about 'competitive' is just Deja Vu ... people were saying the exact same arguments about dungeons and fractals. Raids is just different in mechanics .. but it's the same misconceptions about 'balance' and 'competitive PVE' since day 1 in this game.

[ZDragon.3046]

@Obtena.7952 said:Even within raids though ... the margin that you can complete them STILL allows players a very large margin of playing how they want. In fact, all this complaining about 'competitive' is just Deja Vu ... people were saying the exact same arguments about dungeons and fractals. Raids is just different in mechanics .. but it's the same misconceptions about 'balance' and 'competitive PVE' since day 1 in this game.

Maybe so, i just want old non used mechanics to get changed or QoL updates to be in line with other professions and not just all scourge updates because its whats meta at the moment. :U

Fix some older thing that they have to know people dont use.Fix minions.Update the wells.Update the corruptions and its horrid traitSome of the signets are very bad too.Signet of spite passively provides power.... but applies conditions on use.. and not even every condition or decent strike damagePlague signet suppose to be a support signet why is that even a thing... no one really uses it for that part of its function on top of that it provides no positive passive to the user which is very odd for a signet.Look into death magic again.Redefine core shroud as a ranged profession mechanic. (make it really dominate at range)

Why do we have traits all over the placeA healing trait in the spite line (???)(minion traits in blood magic and in death magic)(3 different fear traits in 3 different trait lines)The lack of natural boon generation is almost non-existent compared to all other professions why dont we have more boon stealing optionsThe only boon stealing trait is on scourge when core or especially reaper could make far better use of it.

There are things that are too far behind in effectiveness and functionality in general and thats only the tip of the problem.

[Obtena.7952]

Game history suggests that Anet has SOME affinity to buffed underused tools ... but when they do, it feels like it's in small increments so they don't 'go to far'. The continual Axe damage buffs are good examples of that. I think we have had 4 now?

[Vlad Morbius.1759]

@"Obtena.7952" said:You are completely right. my post doesn't SEEM to say devs shouldn't bring underperforming specs to the same level of others, it DOES say it. Why? because the game is designed in a way that it's not necessary for equivalent-performance for different specs. And also ... I am avoiding that question because I don't see the relevance as GW2 isn't a competitive game for PVE. If you want to make some relation with GW2, balance and competitive gaming, just do it so we can discuss it.

"A message from the Competitive and Skills & Balance Teams: Increase build diversityBy decreasing the power of some of the more dominant builds, we hope to give increased viability to builds that previously were pushed out by these dominant specs. We're also increasing power levels in some targeted areas that previously were underperforming."

" https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/29690/pvp-wvw-skill-split-release/p1

[Obtena.7952]

Awesome ... NOW show me how they did that despite the 17% range difference between highest and lowest class DPS in the latest benchmarks ... It's not like they JUST created the ability to split PVE and PVP/WVW ... that's old news.

The only thing that says to me is that they are going to focus on continuing PVP/WvW splits. Sure that might enable them to make an easier time to balance PVE, and I embrace that but nothing there convinces me that they are going to ensure all classes are going to perform in a narrow range of damage. In otherwords, I'm not holding my breath here.

Here is the best part ... let's do a thought experiment where every class is buffed to the same amount of damage tomorrow ... what does the meta look like then? meta doesn't go away, it's just becomes something else. Do you think necro is part of the new meta? What do you offer a team that wants to complete raids optimally if damage output is no longer a factor? I guess the safest answer there is that you are no worse than you are now ... but I'm not sure you are any better off.

[Vlad Morbius.1759]

I have nothing to add, i haven't been the one postulating that they know all the reasons the game is created the way nor how everyone needs to play it is or that they won't ever try and bring balance to DPS.

[Obtena.7952]

@Vlad Morbius.1759 said:I have nothing to add, ...

That's exactly what I suspected anyways ... the second I discuss something you post, you run off accusing me of 'working at Anet' when it's simple enough to see these things by observing what the devs do, how they change the game and what they tell us. Typical ...

Maybe in a year, you can tell me I was wrong and you got a whole bunch of examples from in game to show it. Until then, I've got 5 years worth of examples and devs' actions from in game that favour my view, not yours. Perhaps the next time you do try and enter the discussion, you stick around long enough to support the content of your posts.

[Axl.8924]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Vlad Morbius.1759 said:I have nothing to add, ...

That's exactly what I suspected anyways ... the second I discuss something you post, you run off accusing me of 'working at Anet' when it's simple enough to see these things by observing what the devs do, how they change the game and what they tell us. Typical ...

Maybe in a year, you can tell me I was wrong and you got a whole bunch of examples from in game to show it. Until then, I've got 5 years worth of examples and devs' actions from in game that favour my view, not yours. Perhaps the next time you do try and enter the discussion, you stick around long enough to support the content of your posts.

You are wrong though.I still think that Anet is trying to balance it out but pvp and wvw is making it hard.I'm not sure why necros skills aren't split, maybe its beyond their ability, i don't know, but its hurting pve.It must be very difficult to balance out abilities that are very strong pvp abilities, and we keep getting them.Its almost like they are asking to hear loads of crying and complaining, i mean:WHO IN THEIR RIGHT MIND WOULD GIVE ABILITIES THAT ARE TOO STRONG IN PVP? its clear that aoes spewing constant boon corrupt is pretty dangerous, but, that part is useless in anything but fractals in the pve areas, unless things have 100 billion boons, and if they give boons to corrupt in other areas of pve, it will be surely underperforming then vs boon strip because it harms pvp.

Can't they add a limit to how many boons can be corrupted in pvp and leave as is in pve? or something like that?

[DeceiverX.8361]

I'm pretty sure a lot more of it is unwillingness to solve the core problem than just WvW and PvP making "balance hard." If it were anything like what you suggest, we'd be seeing major weapon/kit designs which suck on the conceptual level and can't be balanced on the conceptual level in any game mode be reworked. Several are still useless and have been since launch.

You can't balance PvE. I've written at length on multiple occasions why. There is literature on game design about the subject. You literally can't do it. It's by definition just outright impossible in this context, and all this nonsense about "viability" and the PvE "meta" is objectively myth. It's a perception warped by optimization of a subset of players using unrealistic environments as their basis for theory to begin with.

Complain about the gap all you want, but there will always be a class in this position as long as the PvE content is designed the way it is.

Thing is, why are you acting like mass boon corruption in PvE would be an issue if it's necro's biggest strength? There's an entire trait line, elite specialization, and set of utility skills all targeted towards this. It's a HUGE part of necro. It's the reality of the PvP formats. So why are so many things in endgame PvE not utilizing these mechanics to begin with? It seems totally asinine.

The necro isn't strong in the PvP formats because its abilities are overtuned implicitly, either. It's strong because PvP formats have (or should have) real metagames (please look up this word and what it means if you have not); the necro is so important because everything else has basically reached critical mass by stacking/spamming mass boons indefinitely. The class is simply a requirement in these other formats due to boon powercreep. Now, people have been asking for nerfs to boon spam for over three years. It defined the addition of rules in sPvP tourneys to prevent allowing more than one profession of the same kind on a team. ANet downright refuses to do anything about it. It's not going to change, as much as everyone would like it to. Then that'd allow for necro buffs outside of just spamming corrupts. The problem is unless a game-wide re-assessment of boons happens, you can't just make necro any different without breaking the PvP formats. It has historically gotten to a point where boons are so overpowered that fights on even-numbers literally went on forever with infinite sustain without necromancers spamming corrupts (also why Winds of Disenchantment is a major problem right now in terms of instantly deciding fights).

If there were effective boonless builds (like there used to be years ago), there would be precedence and a healthy meta to justify buffing necro's base power, because it'd fall off in these encounters. Problem is we've just gone deeper down the rabbit hole since 2012.

If you really want to attack why necro is weak in PvE, that's the real truth of the matter. It's the best sustained disabler in the game by miles such that the entirety of the game's PvP-environment balance largely hinges on its interaction with keeping boons in check, and it can't fulfill that role in PvE because of systems like the Break Bar punishing soft disablement and enemies not having things like boons to disable. Either you attack boons or attack encounter design. Necro's base power level isn't the problem; its over-dependence on shutting down other power creep which has no real counter to what's dominant outside of just bringing more necros to the table, is.

[Nimon.7840]

Guys just stop trying to discuss with obtena. Im not doing that again. Seems like the biggest troll of this forum and always sais the complete opposite of all other players.And from her/ his created posts, it doesnt even seem, that she actually plays necro.

More like a ranger player, that has no problems in any gamemode.

[Vlad Morbius.1759]

@Obtena.7952 said:

That's exactly what I suspected anyways ... the second I discuss something you post, you run off accusing me of 'working at Anet' when it's simple enough to see these things by observing what the devs do, how they change the game and what they tell us. Typical ...

Maybe in a year, you can tell me I was wrong and you got a whole bunch of examples from in game to show it. Until then, I've got 5 years worth of examples and devs' actions from in game that favour my view, not yours. Perhaps the next time you do try and enter the discussion, you stick around long enough to support the content of your posts.

I have no intention of wasting my time on someone who doesn't know the meaning of discussion, frankly all you have ever done is spout your opinions and stand on your soapbox telling everyone else that disagrees with you they're wrong and you're view of their actions is the one and only view that counts.Another good example of a differing view than yours brought up yesterday by the devs;We'll probably look at some of them to see if they can go game-wide. Our first focus for this release was on splits only. But as we revise the list, a few old splits and maybe some new ones might get changed to game-wide.

Ben PhongluangthamGame Designer

[Obtena.7952]

@Vlad Morbius.1759 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

That's exactly what I suspected anyways ... the second I discuss something you post, you run off accusing me of 'working at Anet' when it's simple enough to see these things by observing what the devs do, how they change the game and what they tell us. Typical ...

Maybe in a year, you can tell me I was wrong and you got a whole bunch of examples from in game to show it. Until then, I've got 5 years worth of examples and devs' actions from in game that favour my view, not yours. Perhaps the next time you do try and enter the discussion, you stick around long enough to support the content of your posts.

Another good example of a differing view than yours brought up yesterday by the devs;

That view doesn't differ from mine at all; no where in that statement does Anet say they balance according to the meta. That statement is about making PVP/WvW splits ... for the benefit of PVP/WvW, not to balance PVE ... also if you didn't notice, NONE of the class changes below that statement were related to PVE changes ... so Like I said, the current state of the game favours a non-meta view for PVE balance. The splits to enable Anet to make PVE vs. PVP/WVW balance changes have been there for a few balance patches now ... but I still don't see anything that makes me believe they are targeting equivalent performance in PVE with their class changes ... HUM, yes ... I must be just making things up to argue with you right?

@"DeceiverX.8361" said:I'm pretty sure a lot more of it is unwillingness to solve the core problem than just WvW and PvP making "balance hard." If it were anything like what you suggest, we'd be seeing major weapon/kit designs which suck on the conceptual level and can't be balanced on the conceptual level in any game mode be reworked. Several are still useless and have been since launch.You can't balance PvE. I've written at length on multiple occasions why. There is literature on game design about the subject. You literally can't do it. It's by definition just outright impossible in this context, and all this nonsense about "viability" and the PvE "meta" is objectively myth. It's a perception warped by optimization of a subset of players using unrealistic environments as their basis for theory to begin with.

Complain about the gap all you want, but there will always be a class in this position as long as the PvE content is designed the way it is.

... and yet ANOTHER example of why people should be convinced Anet does not balance according to the meta.