Flesh golem's charge rework suggestion (and other things)

This is mostly to allow necromancer who are not using specializations (Core necro) to have a decent elite that does not have an exorbitant cooldown (Lich being 180 secs, plaguelands 120 secs).In it's curent state, the golem is acceptable when it comes to it's auto-attacks and the small cripple it applies, but beyond that, it's incredibly weak.
It's charge's knockdown is only 1 second long (While most other classes have access to 2 second knockdowns, stuns, launches and watnot with UTILITY skills and/or even simple weapon skills) and deals about 200-ish damage with said knockdown (ridiculously small damage ability are quite common on core necro and I do not know why... like "corrupt boon" dealing no damage, "Dark path" dealing very little damage and applying few conditions despite having a rather substancial CD, "Doom" also dealing low damage and only hitting a single target for ONLY 1.5 seconds of fear untraited...) Although there is the small possibility of hitting a foe with the last tick of the charge which launches the target and deals around 2k-ish damage... but that happen very rarely. We all know that. Too rarely to be acceptable.

SO! My suggestion to rework the charge would be the following : make it (functionality-wise) similar to a warrior's "Bull's charge" (which is a 3 second knockdown... just saying...) and allow the golem to TRACK its target while charging and smack it to knock the foe down. It should also deal a decent chunk of damage, say, about 2.5k and if possible, make the critical hit chance of the knockdown strike the necromancer's. Enemies between the golem and its main target could be launched aside and take maybe 66% of the damage mentioned before.

ADDITIONALLY, I believe it would be better if the golem (and also the bone fiend along with the shadow fiend, for that matter) performed its unique skill immediately as it is summoned. Like that, should the golem be killed, summoning it again is less "passive"... if that makes sense..? You would not have to channel two full sequences to get a 1 second knockdown.

OK I'M DONE RAMBLING NOW xD

I completely agree and think the minion skills should get a spirit weapon, turret style re-work. This way they would focus more on an active, summoning minions playstyle rather than a passive, having minions playstyle. Their active skills would trigger on summon and the minion would linger for a brief duration before returning to the grave. Give them charges and any needed reworks.

@"Allarius.5670" said:I completely agree and think the minion skills should get a spirit weapon, turret style re-work. This way they would focus more on an active, summoning minions playstyle rather than a passive, having minions playstyle. Their active skills would trigger on summon and the minion would linger for a brief duration before returning to the grave. Give them charges and any needed reworks.

I duno about the "returning to the grave" part. A part of playing with minions is keeping them alive. You should still be able to use their active skill after summoning them, but only after the CD is done.

@"killfil.3472" said:I duno about the "returning to the grave" part. A part of playing with minions is keeping them alive. You should still be able to use their active skill after summoning them, but only after the CD is done.

I understand and fully respect your perspective and the appeal of maintaining an army of minions, I just have a different view on how best it could be handled.

Current implementation reminds me too much of how phatasms used to work for Mesmer. Although there is no general shatter or minion consumption involved (Bone Minions excepted), their mechanic requires over investment in keeping them alive to use them with any kind of effectiveness and consequently holds back their utility. I think they would have more potential use with a more disposable design.

With enough charges, low enough charge recovery, and a reasonable minion up time you could create a much more active minion controller/summoner build.

I completely understand if you and others disagree.

Oooh.... I see what you mean!

Youre suggestions are good for fixing the golems attack but it wont fix the golem as a whole or any other minions for that matter. Fact is they will still be slow deal very little damage on a target that moves and be unable to hit their target unless the necromancer themselves can stop them.

Minions need to have higher base movement speed period. No ifs ands or buts. They are monsters they dont need to specifically be slow.While they dont need to be as fast as a rangers pet (under traits) which is too fast as it is. They do need to be fast enough to chase a foe not using any additional movement skills and be able to hit them at least once every few seconds if not more. Right now they dont land hits unless your target is standing still, cc'ed, or only on skill activation say haunt from shadow fiend.Or what they could doIs what the other person pointed out that minions being made active would be good to think of them in the same respective manner as Mesmer phants.Although these things are utility skills. Not weapon skills. Most of Mesmrers phantasms are weapon skills that come out at 2 twice the speed or more of what it takes to summon one minion.

Even on charges that would be painful to have to go through such a long cast for the minion to perform 1 action then poof ideally is not enough. Not to mention some of them dont perform their actions right away when the necro tells them to do so anyways.Haunt has cast time for exampleBone fiend takes time to immobilize it self (not to mention its projectiles are bad) This thing can take any where from 2 to 8 seconds to actually perform its action.

Reworking any of them with the thought of phantoms in mind would require MASSIVE and i mean MASSIVE work because necro minions have not gotten a single update in so long they dont even fit in this game anymore out side pve and even there they are barely clinging to acceptable use)Some of the minions have not seen any QoL or updates going back to 2014 and in one case 2012. Ideally these things are pretty much still Gw2 launch material.

IdeallyEach minion would have to be summoned and attack a foe with its key skill then do some kind of weapon skill even to make up for the fact that it would die some time laterMinions getting charges of 2 and doing things likeFlesh GolemSpawn > Performs bull charge action > Performs a frenzy of swings that hits like hundred blades > lingers for 10 seconds > despawnsShadow fiendSpawn > Haunts in applying current conditions + fear > Performs an attack similar to rev sword 3 on the target > Lingers for 10 seconds > despawnsBone fiend (with projectiles similar to bristle back )Spawn > Immobilizes its foe > Fires an attack similar to the bristle back pet> Lingers for a few attacks > despawnsBone minionsSpawn > Lunge attack the target > Explodes

Although making them more active like this would make a much better use of Death NovaBut at the same time i feel like they still need to have some stats scale with the necros if they become active skills like this that includes crit chance power and or condi application effects just as mesmers phantom utilities do with a few exceptions.

I like those ideas!

Keep in mind minions are easy-mode for Necromancer. Improving the AI is fine but minions' overall effectiveness will probably be limited by Arenanet because of the low skill threshold.

I'm not sure that I'm ready to give up the fact that the current golem charge knock down up to 10 foes on it's path...I think the golem is already quite strong as he is, I would understand if someone want to rework summon bone minions thought.

@Anchoku.8142 said:Keep in mind minions are easy-mode for Necromancer. Improving the AI is fine but minions' overall effectiveness will probably be limited by Arenanet because of the low skill threshold.

That has nothing to do with skill. No amount of skill is going to keep those minions alive in a competitive situation when a single skill from any other profession can kill them including the elite golem on top of the fact that this can happen when you trait them to be tougher and stronger. Its why death magic is so bad right now investing in your minions literally does almost nothing for them or for you. Had anet not made the change at HoT to reduce the damage they take in pve they would be utterly useless because most content that exist in the game now would 1hit or 2 hit them to deaht. The fact that this is the case shows that they are in need of some changes maybe not specifically the changes we have in mind but yes the minions and their traits are way too outdated for the current game.

As soon as your minions die you are a necro with 0 utility. So to say its EZ mode is just rather ignorance to see a problem more than anything. Making a build so you can play easy mode in pve is not a issue its pve no one really cares if you dont run general utility (which you just spam off cd anyways which is not skill). IF you think minions in pvp or any competitive mode is easy i invite you to try it and see how that works out for you.There is a difference in things being outdated and skill level.

@Dadnir.5038 said:I'm not sure that I'm ready to give up the fact that the current golem charge knock down up to 10 foes on it's path...I think the golem is already quite strong as he is, I would understand if someone want to rework summon bone minions thought.

The golem's charge can indeed hit multiple targets, but even if it would, the damage it currently inflicts on knockdown is ridiculously low (Barely reaching 250). Plus, it only inflicts a 1 second knockdown.If you are worried about AOE, the rework I suggested would still allow it to hit multiple foes, so long as they are between it and its charge's target.

@killfil.3472 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:I'm not sure that I'm ready to give up the fact that the current golem charge knock down up to 10 foes on it's path...I think the golem is already quite strong as he is, I would understand if someone want to rework

summon bone minions

thought.

But that's not how bull charge work, bull charge only knock down your target. There is a price to pay for the ability to knock down 10 players, if it's just a little bit less damage and less time being knock down, it's fair.

If your issue is the ability of the golem to stay alive in order to perform the charge, it's a whole different problem. The golem is a mindless beast that charge when you tell him to charge, tracking a target don't fit this design either.

The golem is a good elite, it's not transcendent, I agree, but it's still a good elite. It deal damage continuously, apply cripple reliably, can be used as a wide area hard CC and all of that on a pretty short CD. It's a crowd control skill with some damage, not a damage skill with some crowd control. No seriously, I don't think changing it would do any good to the necromancer. There are skill that need a lot more work than this one does.

@Dadnir.5038 said:

But that's not how bull charge work, bull charge only knock down your target. There is a price to pay for the ability to knock down 10 players, if it's just a little bit less damage and less time being knock down, it's fair.

The rework I suggested would still be able to hit multiple foes in the right condition, just as it can now, in the right condition.

@"killfil.3472" said:SO! My suggestion to rework the charge would be the following : make it (functionality-wise) similar to a warrior's "Bull's charge" (which is a 3 second knockdown... just saying...) and allow the golem to TRACK its target while charging and smack it to knock the foe down. It should also deal a decent chunk of damage, say, about 2.5k and if possible, make the critical hit chance of the knockdown strike the necromancer's. Enemies between the golem and its main target could be launched aside and take maybe 66% of the damage mentioned before.

And I have to say, how often has anyone knocked down 10 players, if even 5 with a golem's charge?In 4 years of necromancer gameplay, alternating from PvP, WvW and PvE, I can still only count on one hand the number of times I knockdowned 4 or more foes.

Also, the ability to hit multiple foes with hard CC doesn't mean you should deal little to no damage. Plenty of skills from the other classes prove this point.A Chronomancer's "Gravity Well" (Elite skill) can CC up to five foes for 3 seconds and still deal a respectable amount of damage at a good range.An Elementalist's "Earthquake" (Dagger off-hand earth skill) can knockdown up to 5 foes for 2 seconds and deal a good amount of damage.A Revenant's "Drop the Hammer" (Hammer skill) can knockdown up to 5 foes for 2 seconds and deal a large amount of damage.A Holosmith's "Holographic Shockwave" (Profession skill) Can """Launch""" up to 5 foes, affecting them for about 2 seconds, over a very large area and ALWAYS critically hits.

This is just a few example.

I guess you haven't read the wiki on Charge.

Enemies at the absolute edge of the flesh golem's hitbox will be launched away from the flesh golem, while enemies closer to the flesh golem's hitbox will be knocked down. A defiance bar will be affected by both.Actual knockdown duration is 2 seconds.

@Anchoku.8142 said:Keep in mind minions are easy-mode for Necromancer. Improving the AI is fine but minions' overall effectiveness will probably be limited by Arenanet because of the low skill threshold.

Well id like to see a more active playstyle for minions and minions doing better than now.

So this would also affect afk famers.

So i think minions dieing is rlly good. But you should be abe toresummon them right away.

Flesh Golem used to be good. It's Anets fault and the bad playerbase' fault that have ruined it and most all things in the game since launch.

https://youtu.be /k3DZde1Q9Zk?t=11https://youtu.be /k3DZde1Q9Zk?t=159https://youtu.be /k3DZde1Q9Zk?t=425

Flesh Golem trick when in binding roots:https://youtu.be /k3DZde1Q9Zk?t=492

Remember when once upon a time you had to set up before using a skill to kill someone?:https://youtu.be /k3DZde1Q9Zk?t=527

Yeah, that doesn't happen anymore. Game had potential in 2013 and it's all gone to the kitten toilet now.

while we're talking about reworking minions, why is rigor mortis so bad? 2s immobillise on a 50 sec cooldown...

I dont like the idea OP suggested. It would be a nerf for many scenarios in PvE. Golem is already strong as it is. What needs to be done is Lich Form rework, new elite well, new spectral healing skill and plaguelands ticking for more direct damage. I could go on (and I did on numerous times), but to wrap it up, the entire class needs a major overhaul like Mesmer had.

@Sublimatio.6981 said:the entire class needs a major overhaul like Mesmer had.

AMEN!

I dont really agree with the tracking part of the OPs suggestion. As others above have said, the minions are kinda lifeless beings with no intelligence other than to do what they are ordered at the moment. If I could change anything, it would be to give shadow fiend, bone fiend and flesh golem 2 ammo charges (also 2 to all the staff marks but thats something seperate). That way you could have it charge for 1 second knockdown, delay, then recast.

@"Anchoku.8142" said:Keep in mind minions are easy-mode for Necromancer. Improving the AI is fine but minions' overall effectiveness will probably be limited by Arenanet because of the low skill threshold.

Necromancer without minions is already easy-mode enough, if not more, in pve. There's no need for having an entire utility type limited to what, open world pve farming?

I despise treating and designing class through prism of some handicapped player. New players aren't some special case people unless you start treating them as such. Classes in gw2 aren't some rocket science - making a set of utilities useless in regular play that can however carry your bum through the early content only harms the new player because transition to actual builds at max level will be just that that much harder.

The only minions that have ever seen any use were ones with utility. Flesh wurm, golem and more recently shadow fiend after slight rework. Making minions more universally viable, closer to regular utilities and less dependant on them living for extended time to have value is a win/win scenario. Players who love the idea of minion necro get to use them more and potentially in end-game content, the rest gain few extra good utilities.

And you don't want to "improve AI". First, it ain't happening in gw2 where npcs can't jump, eat all the damage and will always get kited. Secondly, even if it was possible, you are making passive play better instead of giving the control to the player.

From myself, the golem change from OP is good, charge after summon is not needed however. Minion I'd like to see changed the most is Bone Minions. Explosion should be ground-targeted and upon activation minion should get superspeed to move to the area in time.

@TheWolf.1602 said:while we're talking about reworking minions, why is rigor mortis so bad? 2s immobillise on a 50 sec cooldown...

lack of updates and Quality of life. Not to mention the skill takes ages for it to actually go off and the projectiles are slow arcs which means chance of them hitting a moving target is next to 0

@Rym.1469 said:

Necromancer without minions is already easy-mode enough, if not more, in pve. There's no need for having an entire utility type limited to what, open world pve farming?

What makes you say this specifically give us details on how its easy mode. I would love to hear your reasoning. Based on your wording it sounds like you mean pvp as well.

I dont wanna be that bad Guy..but they f*ck on necro longtime. Why u Think they Will do something Now?Quality of life: . Grasping darkness bug,reaper's touch(dont bounce after weapon swap), golem in water,core shroud Is mess, useless fear traitlines, Lich form ultimate CD, signets dont make sansa,bone minions dumb explodes, LF mechanic. I need dummy in everyday borderland fór LF THX anet. Passive traitlines like Corrupters Fever dont work in shroud. Why then i need to take them? And casttimes...omg casttimes.. (thats ONLY today's issue..)

Edit: ok i was little bit upset. They care. But it could be better..much better.