pvp fourm : each week mesmer gained something with permanent uptime — Guild Wars 2 Forums

pvp fourm : each week mesmer gained something with permanent uptime

musu.9205musu.9205 Member ✭✭✭

it's the new trend of pvp forum . i thought the sanity would have stopped them at perma evade .

<1

Comments

  • Levetty.1279Levetty.1279 Member ✭✭✭

    No what are you talking about, if you use all these foods, runes and sigils that every class can use then you can evade a lot nerf mesmer pls

  • Sanity? What sanity? Confusion has driven them into such a state they don’t know what they’re talking about. I’ve seen three or four complain that confusion is STILL TOO STRONG. You know the one that got nerfed into uselessness?

  • OriOri.8724OriOri.8724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I learned on the pvp forum yesterday that mesmer has a 6 second block on shield 4. Been playing the class for years and never knew

    Eyyyy I unlocked signatures

  • Musty.3148Musty.3148 Member ✭✭✭

    @OriOri.8724 said:
    I learned on the pvp forum yesterday that mesmer has a 6 second block on shield 4. Been playing the class for years and never knew

    I'd take that aaaaaall day long LOL

  • Well, a major part of the mesmer design is to confuse the enemy.

    Looking at those posts, I'd say they are legitimately confused.

    But I do agree on at least one thing, something needs to be done about phantasms after the illusion rework. I'd start with changing Chronophantasma.

    Maybe make so only one phantasm per skill use is copied.

    Or maybe make it reduce the cool down of the skill itself after being used once (50%). Making it a more 'active' trait, less passive.

  • @SlimChance.6593 said:
    Well, a major part of the mesmer design is to confuse the enemy.

    Looking at those posts, I'd say they are legitimately confused.

    But I do agree on at least one thing, something needs to be done about phantasms after the illusion rework. I'd start with changing Chronophantasma.

    Maybe make so only one phantasm per skill use is copied.

    Or maybe make it reduce the cool down of the skill itself after being used once (50%). Making it a more 'active' trait, less passive.

    If you cap phantasms to three you probably wouldn’t have to touch CP

  • And if fix CP and make it an "active" trait instead of one of the most powerful "passive" traits in the game, then you wouldn't have to limit phantasms.

  • @SlimChance.6593 said:
    And if fix CP and make it an "active" trait instead of one of the most powerful "passive" traits in the game, then you wouldn't have to limit phantasms.

    You still would because of F5 and SoE. Not that anyone is going to use SoE just to get more phantasms in PvP but I’ve seen people complain about it.

  • But with F5 and SOE, you have to give up something for them. F5 is costing you clones and the cool down between phantasm casts. SOE is costing you a slot and has to be activated between phantasm casts.

    CP let's the game re-cast the phantasm for you. It doesn't cost anything. There's no counter to it. It's as passive as they come. It's way worse then EM.

    Fix CP, then we can discuss whether phantasm limits are needed.

  • Levetty.1279Levetty.1279 Member ✭✭✭

    @SlimChance.6593 said:
    Well, a major part of the mesmer design is to confuse the enemy.

    Looking at those posts, I'd say they are legitimately confused.

    But I do agree on at least one thing, something needs to be done about phantasms after the illusion rework. I'd start with changing Chronophantasma.

    Maybe make so only one phantasm per skill use is copied.

    Or maybe make it reduce the cool down of the skill itself after being used once (50%). Making it a more 'active' trait, less passive.

    How about you go back to the thief board and stop trolling here.

  • SlimChance.6593SlimChance.6593 Member ✭✭
    edited March 30, 2018

    guess again....

    Since the phantasm no longer gets applied to our shatters... we need to look differently at those phantasm skills.. They are weapon/utility skills with a cool animation...
    If you place a cap on phantasms, like Jace has mentioned, now your punishing the player that can chain several skills in a row. Are other professions going to get punished for chaining several skills in a row??

    I don't want another knee jerk nerf like the "quickness/slow" no longer affects rez/stomps.. Do other professions have such stupid restrictions on where they can be used? Why put a restrictions on chaining phantasm skills.

    Chronophantasma give us two skill executions with the risk of one. Chronophantasma is the first trait that should be looked at.

    Make CP a cooldown reduction.. "after summoning a phantasm, for 10 seconds that phantasm skill's cooldown is 1 sec"
    Now, a good player can chain the same skill right after the other. And still get the same benefit, but there's a cost. A chance for countering,,

  • OriOri.8724OriOri.8724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jace al Thor.6745 said:

    @SlimChance.6593 said:
    Well, a major part of the mesmer design is to confuse the enemy.

    Looking at those posts, I'd say they are legitimately confused.

    But I do agree on at least one thing, something needs to be done about phantasms after the illusion rework. I'd start with changing Chronophantasma.

    Maybe make so only one phantasm per skill use is copied.

    Or maybe make it reduce the cool down of the skill itself after being used once (50%). Making it a more 'active' trait, less passive.

    If you cap phantasms to three you probably wouldn’t have to touch CP

    Take imagined burden. Use iZerker, swap to staff, use iWarlock. Boom 4 phantasms out, but your proposed "fix" would negate half of iWarlock, and that skill is designed around having 2 phantasms be summoned, because each one is pretty weak on its own.

    Capping phantasms is the wrong solution. Addressing the poweful synergies between imagined burden, CP, SotE and CS are the answer.

    Eyyyy I unlocked signatures

  • SlimChance.6593SlimChance.6593 Member ✭✭
    edited March 30, 2018

    @OriOri.8724 said:

    @Jace al Thor.6745 said:

    @SlimChance.6593 said:
    Well, a major part of the mesmer design is to confuse the enemy.

    Looking at those posts, I'd say they are legitimately confused.

    But I do agree on at least one thing, something needs to be done about phantasms after the illusion rework. I'd start with changing Chronophantasma.

    Maybe make so only one phantasm per skill use is copied.

    Or maybe make it reduce the cool down of the skill itself after being used once (50%). Making it a more 'active' trait, less passive.

    If you cap phantasms to three you probably wouldn’t have to touch CP

    Take imagined burden. Use iZerker, swap to staff, use iWarlock. Boom 4 phantasms out, but your proposed "fix" would negate half of iWarlock, and that skill is designed around having 2 phantasms be summoned, because each one is pretty weak on its own.

    Capping phantasms is the wrong solution. Addressing the poweful synergies between imagined burden, CP, SotE and CS are the answer.

    YES.. EXACTLY!!!!

    For example, Change Imagined Burden so the phantasm makes two attacks (reduced damage on 2nd). Now you have the same affect and better synergy with CP.

  • Kundry.1249Kundry.1249 Member ✭✭

    @OriOri.8724 said:

    @Jace al Thor.6745 said:

    @SlimChance.6593 said:
    Well, a major part of the mesmer design is to confuse the enemy.

    Looking at those posts, I'd say they are legitimately confused.

    But I do agree on at least one thing, something needs to be done about phantasms after the illusion rework. I'd start with changing Chronophantasma.

    Maybe make so only one phantasm per skill use is copied.

    Or maybe make it reduce the cool down of the skill itself after being used once (50%). Making it a more 'active' trait, less passive.

    If you cap phantasms to three you probably wouldn’t have to touch CP

    Take imagined burden. Use iZerker, swap to staff, use iWarlock. Boom 4 phantasms out, but your proposed "fix" would negate half of iWarlock, and that skill is designed around having 2 phantasms be summoned, because each one is pretty weak on its own.

    Capping phantasms is the wrong solution. Addressing the poweful synergies between imagined burden, CP, SotE and CS are the answer.

    Is that build even meta though?

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SlimChance.6593 said:
    guess again....

    Since the phantasm no longer gets applied to our shatters... we need to look differently at those phantasm skills.. They are weapon/utility skills with a cool animation...
    If you place a cap on phantasms, like Jace has mentioned, now your punishing the player that can chain several skills in a row. Are other professions going to get punished for chaining several skills in a row??

    I don't want another knee jerk nerf like the "quickness/slow" no longer affects rez/stomps.. Do other professions have such stupid restrictions on where they can be used? Why put a restrictions on chaining phantasm skills.

    Chronophantasma give us two skill executions with the risk of one. Chronophantasma is the first trait that should be looked at.

    Make CP a cooldown reduction.. "after summoning a phantasm, for 10 seconds that phantasm skill's cooldown is 1 sec"
    Now, a good player can chain the same skill right after the other. And still get the same benefit, but there's a cost. A chance for countering,,

    I like the idea of Chronophantasma being kind of like "Mimic" for phantasm skills.

    IH hybrid | My ears, how are you! | Kourna Jackrabbit for default Springer

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @OriOri.8724 said:
    I learned on the pvp forum yesterday that mesmer has a 6 second block on shield 4. Been playing the class for years and never knew

    I learnt Mesmer has the highest blocks of any class.
    I learnt Mesmer has the highest invuln uptime of any class.
    I learnt Mesmer has the highest number of dodges out of any class.
    I learnt Mesmer has the highest power dps of any class.
    They have all these in one build. I’m just waiting for Jazzman to explain it all to me in a clearly and concisely crafted guide or Pyro to condescendingly point it all out to me.

  • Mesmers with kitten perma all boons are cancer that need to be nerfed! I got hit by a Disenchanter that one shot me for 12k damage! Literally no counterplay smh.

    Dancer - Elite Spec Concept for Mesmer

  • Simonoly.4352Simonoly.4352 Member ✭✭✭

    It truly does have everything of all the things at every moment in all instances.

  • musu.9205musu.9205 Member ✭✭✭

    @OriOri.8724 said:

    @Jace al Thor.6745 said:

    @SlimChance.6593 said:
    Well, a major part of the mesmer design is to confuse the enemy.

    Looking at those posts, I'd say they are legitimately confused.

    But I do agree on at least one thing, something needs to be done about phantasms after the illusion rework. I'd start with changing Chronophantasma.

    Maybe make so only one phantasm per skill use is copied.

    Or maybe make it reduce the cool down of the skill itself after being used once (50%). Making it a more 'active' trait, less passive.

    If you cap phantasms to three you probably wouldn’t have to touch CP

    Take imagined burden. Use iZerker, swap to staff, use iWarlock. Boom 4 phantasms out, but your proposed "fix" would negate half of iWarlock, and that skill is designed around having 2 phantasms be summoned, because each one is pretty weak on its own.

    Capping phantasms is the wrong solution. Addressing the poweful synergies between imagined burden, CP, SotE and CS are the answer.

    mostly agree but
    even tho synergies between imagined burden, CP, SotE and CS is too much ,its hardly meta given Signet heal is still quite bad ,burning entire skill bar with long cd will never become viable .
    capping phantasms will just lead to tedious game play and back to step 1 : mesmer will be punished for using their phantasm skills .

    keep in mind , we just have an okish power dps build in pve , fundamental change should take care of both sides .
    easiest solution would be reduce phantasms damage when traited with CP and buff phantasms damage scale in pve .

  • musu.9205musu.9205 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 30, 2018

    and btw , pvp forum ignored or forgot the fact anet just nuked confusion mirage into non existence(while every other op build remain viable if not still op ) . and they still claimed that they don't want this class being deleted lol .

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I would like for dune cloak or desert distortion to be changed into if you evade sucessfully you get x barrier, just to see people complain about one more thing. :)

  • Exciton.8942Exciton.8942 Member ✭✭✭

    @Refia Montes.3205 said:
    Mesmers with kitten perma all boons are cancer that need to be nerfed! I got hit by a Disenchanter that one shot me for 12k damage! Literally no counterplay smh.

    Dodging sth every 30 sec seems too hard for you.

  • Imperadordf.2687Imperadordf.2687 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Exciton.8942 said:

    @Refia Montes.3205 said:
    Mesmers with kitten perma all boons are cancer that need to be nerfed! I got hit by a Disenchanter that one shot me for 12k damage! Literally no counterplay smh.

    Dodging sth every 30 sec seems too hard for you.

    It was sarcasm.

  • Exciton.8942Exciton.8942 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 30, 2018

    @Imperadordf.2687 said:

    @Exciton.8942 said:

    @Refia Montes.3205 said:
    Mesmers with kitten perma all boons are cancer that need to be nerfed! I got hit by a Disenchanter that one shot me for 12k damage! Literally no counterplay smh.

    Dodging sth every 30 sec seems too hard for you.

    It was sarcasm.

    Oh, okay. Sorry I am too dumb to get it.

  • RabbitUp.8294RabbitUp.8294 Member ✭✭✭

    @OriOri.8724 said:

    @Jace al Thor.6745 said:

    @SlimChance.6593 said:
    Well, a major part of the mesmer design is to confuse the enemy.

    Looking at those posts, I'd say they are legitimately confused.

    But I do agree on at least one thing, something needs to be done about phantasms after the illusion rework. I'd start with changing Chronophantasma.

    Maybe make so only one phantasm per skill use is copied.

    Or maybe make it reduce the cool down of the skill itself after being used once (50%). Making it a more 'active' trait, less passive.

    If you cap phantasms to three you probably wouldn’t have to touch CP

    Take imagined burden. Use iZerker, swap to staff, use iWarlock. Boom 4 phantasms out, but your proposed "fix" would negate half of iWarlock, and that skill is designed around having 2 phantasms be summoned, because each one is pretty weak on its own.

    Capping phantasms is the wrong solution. Addressing the poweful synergies between imagined burden, CP, SotE and CS are the answer.

    Changing Chronophantasma hurts the pve dps build for no reason. Same for putting a cap.

    How about targeted pvp nerfs? Nerf the overperforming phantasms directly, or increase Imagined Burden's damage reduction from 25% to 33% for pvp.

  • @RabbitUp.8294 said:

    @OriOri.8724 said:

    @Jace al Thor.6745 said:

    @SlimChance.6593 said:
    Well, a major part of the mesmer design is to confuse the enemy.

    Looking at those posts, I'd say they are legitimately confused.

    But I do agree on at least one thing, something needs to be done about phantasms after the illusion rework. I'd start with changing Chronophantasma.

    Maybe make so only one phantasm per skill use is copied.

    Or maybe make it reduce the cool down of the skill itself after being used once (50%). Making it a more 'active' trait, less passive.

    If you cap phantasms to three you probably wouldn’t have to touch CP

    Take imagined burden. Use iZerker, swap to staff, use iWarlock. Boom 4 phantasms out, but your proposed "fix" would negate half of iWarlock, and that skill is designed around having 2 phantasms be summoned, because each one is pretty weak on its own.

    Capping phantasms is the wrong solution. Addressing the poweful synergies between imagined burden, CP, SotE and CS are the answer.

    Changing Chronophantasma hurts the pve dps build for no reason. Same for putting a cap.

    How about targeted pvp nerfs? Nerf the overperforming phantasms directly, or increase Imagined Burden's damage reduction from 25% to 33% for pvp.

    Tbh, IB isn't really that strong of a trait. Sure, you can deal more damage with one swing of GS4, but it only really works when your opponent has low armor, no blocks, evades etc and countering CP is pretty easy with it. Once you see two Zerkers do their first animation just ready yourself ffor the second strike by dodging or jumping up some height.

    Dancer - Elite Spec Concept for Mesmer

  • Exciton.8942Exciton.8942 Member ✭✭✭

    The funny part is even mesmer players in this thread thinking chronophantasma + IB is OP?

    This is not even a meta-worthy build.

    Just like I was surprised to see mental anguish being nerfed as it is not even the best trait in domi GM. Because people complain about 1 shot build so it get nerfed. Similarly with these GS phantasm builds, just because it creates a lot of phantasms so people freak out.

  • RabbitUp.8294RabbitUp.8294 Member ✭✭✭

    I don't think it's OP, but I do think it's a brainless build. It's no different to pewpew ranger, with a bit more aoe, and you can stealth away if someone looks at you the wrong way. Honestly it gives mesmers a bad name.

  • SlimChance.6593SlimChance.6593 Member ✭✭
    edited March 30, 2018

    You have to look at the bigger picture. IB & CP ends up spawning 4 phantasm and 2 clones. It adds visual clutter and easily sets up 3 clone shatter, all done with a single skill cast. This is textbook powercreep.

    You change IB to a single phantasm with a double attack. Now your only getting one clone with or without CP and less visual clutter. Your still getting the same damage/utility, but theres a minor nerf to clone generation.

    Im just saying that the phantasm rework needs to be tweeked more, but do it smart! Dont do another “slap exhaustion” on it and move on.

  • Levetty.1279Levetty.1279 Member ✭✭✭

    @RabbitUp.8294 said:

    @OriOri.8724 said:

    @Jace al Thor.6745 said:

    @SlimChance.6593 said:
    Well, a major part of the mesmer design is to confuse the enemy.

    Looking at those posts, I'd say they are legitimately confused.

    But I do agree on at least one thing, something needs to be done about phantasms after the illusion rework. I'd start with changing Chronophantasma.

    Maybe make so only one phantasm per skill use is copied.

    Or maybe make it reduce the cool down of the skill itself after being used once (50%). Making it a more 'active' trait, less passive.

    If you cap phantasms to three you probably wouldn’t have to touch CP

    Take imagined burden. Use iZerker, swap to staff, use iWarlock. Boom 4 phantasms out, but your proposed "fix" would negate half of iWarlock, and that skill is designed around having 2 phantasms be summoned, because each one is pretty weak on its own.

    Capping phantasms is the wrong solution. Addressing the poweful synergies between imagined burden, CP, SotE and CS are the answer.

    Changing Chronophantasma hurts the pve dps build for no reason. Same for putting a cap.

    How about targeted pvp nerfs? Nerf the overperforming phantasms directly, or increase Imagined Burden's damage reduction from 25% to 33% for pvp.

    @Exciton.8942 said:
    The funny part is even mesmer players in this thread thinking chronophantasma + IB is OP?

    This is not even a meta-worthy build.

    Just like I was surprised to see mental anguish being nerfed as it is not even the best trait in domi GM. Because people complain about 1 shot build so it get nerfed. Similarly with these GS phantasm builds, just because it creates a lot of phantasms so people freak out.

    Notice how when Anet starts doing patches that are purely PvP/PvE splits then the suggested fixes for mesmer change from damage numbers to nerfing mechanics. Its not about making Mesmer balanced in PvP, to these people, Its about removing Mesmer from all modes.

  • Exciton.8942Exciton.8942 Member ✭✭✭

    @SlimChance.6593 said:
    You have to look at the bigger picture. IB & CP ends up spawning 4 phantasm and 2 clones. It adds visual clutter and easily sets up 3 clone shatter, all done with a single skill cast. This is textbook powercreep.

    You change IB to a single phantasm with a double attack. Now your only getting one clone with or without CP and less visual clutter. Your still getting the same damage/utility, but theres a minor nerf to clone generation.

    Im just saying that the phantasm rework needs to be tweeked more, but do it smart! Dont do another “slap exhaustion” on it and move on.

    Bigger picture? One has to invest in Two GM traits to just get an 'overpowered' phantasmal berserker skill. So what is your overpowered build. Domination/Inspiration/Chrono? The build is not even meta-worthy.

    And honestly, I don't even think it is strong. This is one very telegraphed and easy-to-avoid skill. It is also based on stupid AI and you can kite them easily as well.

    The clone set up is not reliable either. You want to set up clones right next to target and shatter. Chronophantasm delays clone generation, which is counter-productive for shatter build.

    Bottom line is imagine burden is so much inferior to power block. I don't even know what this build is good at doing. I think I can easily outplay it with any decent meta build out there.

  • Honestly I can't wait for next week. I'm excited to see which part of mesmer is now permanent. Perma double elite specs?

    Dancer - Elite Spec Concept for Mesmer

  • OriOri.8724OriOri.8724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kundry.1249 said:

    @OriOri.8724 said:

    @Jace al Thor.6745 said:

    @SlimChance.6593 said:
    Well, a major part of the mesmer design is to confuse the enemy.

    Looking at those posts, I'd say they are legitimately confused.

    But I do agree on at least one thing, something needs to be done about phantasms after the illusion rework. I'd start with changing Chronophantasma.

    Maybe make so only one phantasm per skill use is copied.

    Or maybe make it reduce the cool down of the skill itself after being used once (50%). Making it a more 'active' trait, less passive.

    If you cap phantasms to three you probably wouldn’t have to touch CP

    Take imagined burden. Use iZerker, swap to staff, use iWarlock. Boom 4 phantasms out, but your proposed "fix" would negate half of iWarlock, and that skill is designed around having 2 phantasms be summoned, because each one is pretty weak on its own.

    Capping phantasms is the wrong solution. Addressing the poweful synergies between imagined burden, CP, SotE and CS are the answer.

    Is that build even meta though?

    GS/Staff? No, not nearly. But it was meant to point out how bad of an idea capping phantasms is. That would be a horrible change to the class.

    To everyone else complaining that IB + CP isn't that great, or that it isn't meta and everything else. You are still missing the point. The phantasms were changed to be a single attack entity for a good reason. To then be able to turn around and have a single cast of a phantasm skill output 4 phantasms, essentially quadrupling the damage output they do (3x damage for iZerker due to the damage nerf from IB), not to mention doubling the clones that skill produces, is silly. And you can then turn around and do the same thing again if you run SotE.

    That synergy is not healthy for the class honestly. Quite frankly, it doesn't really matter if you think its overpowered or underpowered, or if it is meta or not. Its still not a healthy synergy, which is why something needs to change.

    @RabbitUp.8294 You don't have to gut power chrono's DPS in order to address this synergy.

    Eyyyy I unlocked signatures

  • Levetty.1279Levetty.1279 Member ✭✭✭

    @Refia Montes.3205 said:
    Honestly I can't wait for next week. I'm excited to see which part of mesmer is now permanent. Perma double elite specs?

    Well people are already all over this board claiming Chronophantasma is too strong even though everybody is still playing Mirage.

  • Kundry.1249Kundry.1249 Member ✭✭

    @OriOri.8724 said:

    @Kundry.1249 said:

    @OriOri.8724 said:

    @Jace al Thor.6745 said:

    @SlimChance.6593 said:
    Well, a major part of the mesmer design is to confuse the enemy.

    Looking at those posts, I'd say they are legitimately confused.

    But I do agree on at least one thing, something needs to be done about phantasms after the illusion rework. I'd start with changing Chronophantasma.

    Maybe make so only one phantasm per skill use is copied.

    Or maybe make it reduce the cool down of the skill itself after being used once (50%). Making it a more 'active' trait, less passive.

    If you cap phantasms to three you probably wouldn’t have to touch CP

    Take imagined burden. Use iZerker, swap to staff, use iWarlock. Boom 4 phantasms out, but your proposed "fix" would negate half of iWarlock, and that skill is designed around having 2 phantasms be summoned, because each one is pretty weak on its own.

    Capping phantasms is the wrong solution. Addressing the poweful synergies between imagined burden, CP, SotE and CS are the answer.

    Is that build even meta though?

    GS/Staff? No, not nearly. But it was meant to point out how bad of an idea capping phantasms is. That would be a horrible change to the class.

    To everyone else complaining that IB + CP isn't that great, or that it isn't meta and everything else. You are still missing the point. The phantasms were changed to be a single attack entity for a good reason. To then be able to turn around and have a single cast of a phantasm skill output 4 phantasms, essentially quadrupling the damage output they do (3x damage for iZerker due to the damage nerf from IB), not to mention doubling the clones that skill produces, is silly. And you can then turn around and do the same thing again if you run SotE.

    That synergy is not healthy for the class honestly. Quite frankly, it doesn't really matter if you think its overpowered or underpowered, or if it is meta or not. Its still not a healthy synergy, which is why something needs to change.

    @RabbitUp.8294 You don't have to gut power chrono's DPS in order to address this synergy.

    I was referring to the 16 izerker build (with staff or not). What is not healthy about it, if it's a meme build? The potential that some component of it gets buffed and becomes OP in the future? Or are you worried that it's too strong against bad players, and hence will invite too much demand for mesmer nerfs from the general populace?

  • OriOri.8724OriOri.8724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kundry.1249 said:

    @OriOri.8724 said:

    @Kundry.1249 said:

    @OriOri.8724 said:

    @Jace al Thor.6745 said:

    @SlimChance.6593 said:
    Well, a major part of the mesmer design is to confuse the enemy.

    Looking at those posts, I'd say they are legitimately confused.

    But I do agree on at least one thing, something needs to be done about phantasms after the illusion rework. I'd start with changing Chronophantasma.

    Maybe make so only one phantasm per skill use is copied.

    Or maybe make it reduce the cool down of the skill itself after being used once (50%). Making it a more 'active' trait, less passive.

    If you cap phantasms to three you probably wouldn’t have to touch CP

    Take imagined burden. Use iZerker, swap to staff, use iWarlock. Boom 4 phantasms out, but your proposed "fix" would negate half of iWarlock, and that skill is designed around having 2 phantasms be summoned, because each one is pretty weak on its own.

    Capping phantasms is the wrong solution. Addressing the poweful synergies between imagined burden, CP, SotE and CS are the answer.

    Is that build even meta though?

    GS/Staff? No, not nearly. But it was meant to point out how bad of an idea capping phantasms is. That would be a horrible change to the class.

    To everyone else complaining that IB + CP isn't that great, or that it isn't meta and everything else. You are still missing the point. The phantasms were changed to be a single attack entity for a good reason. To then be able to turn around and have a single cast of a phantasm skill output 4 phantasms, essentially quadrupling the damage output they do (3x damage for iZerker due to the damage nerf from IB), not to mention doubling the clones that skill produces, is silly. And you can then turn around and do the same thing again if you run SotE.

    That synergy is not healthy for the class honestly. Quite frankly, it doesn't really matter if you think its overpowered or underpowered, or if it is meta or not. Its still not a healthy synergy, which is why something needs to change.

    @RabbitUp.8294 You don't have to gut power chrono's DPS in order to address this synergy.

    I was referring to the 16 izerker build (with staff or not). What is not healthy about it, if it's a meme build? The potential that some component of it gets buffed and becomes OP in the future? Or are you worried that it's too strong against bad players, and hence will invite too much demand for mesmer nerfs from the general populace?

    What is healthy about 3 skills landing 16 attacks from 16 different entities, along with giving you enough clones to pull off 2 4 illusion shatters? That is absurd levels of powercreep, to be able to get so much kitten out of using 3 skills.

    I'm not a fan of overloaded skills. And this is overloaded to kitten and back. Its a fundamentally unhealthy synergy

    Eyyyy I unlocked signatures

  • Ori gets it.

  • Kundry.1249Kundry.1249 Member ✭✭
    edited March 31, 2018

    @OriOri.8724 said:

    @Kundry.1249 said:

    @OriOri.8724 said:

    @Kundry.1249 said:

    @OriOri.8724 said:

    @Jace al Thor.6745 said:

    @SlimChance.6593 said:
    Well, a major part of the mesmer design is to confuse the enemy.

    Looking at those posts, I'd say they are legitimately confused.

    But I do agree on at least one thing, something needs to be done about phantasms after the illusion rework. I'd start with changing Chronophantasma.

    Maybe make so only one phantasm per skill use is copied.

    Or maybe make it reduce the cool down of the skill itself after being used once (50%). Making it a more 'active' trait, less passive.

    If you cap phantasms to three you probably wouldn’t have to touch CP

    Take imagined burden. Use iZerker, swap to staff, use iWarlock. Boom 4 phantasms out, but your proposed "fix" would negate half of iWarlock, and that skill is designed around having 2 phantasms be summoned, because each one is pretty weak on its own.

    Capping phantasms is the wrong solution. Addressing the poweful synergies between imagined burden, CP, SotE and CS are the answer.

    Is that build even meta though?

    GS/Staff? No, not nearly. But it was meant to point out how bad of an idea capping phantasms is. That would be a horrible change to the class.

    To everyone else complaining that IB + CP isn't that great, or that it isn't meta and everything else. You are still missing the point. The phantasms were changed to be a single attack entity for a good reason. To then be able to turn around and have a single cast of a phantasm skill output 4 phantasms, essentially quadrupling the damage output they do (3x damage for iZerker due to the damage nerf from IB), not to mention doubling the clones that skill produces, is silly. And you can then turn around and do the same thing again if you run SotE.

    That synergy is not healthy for the class honestly. Quite frankly, it doesn't really matter if you think its overpowered or underpowered, or if it is meta or not. Its still not a healthy synergy, which is why something needs to change.

    @RabbitUp.8294 You don't have to gut power chrono's DPS in order to address this synergy.

    I was referring to the 16 izerker build (with staff or not). What is not healthy about it, if it's a meme build? The potential that some component of it gets buffed and becomes OP in the future? Or are you worried that it's too strong against bad players, and hence will invite too much demand for mesmer nerfs from the general populace?

    What is healthy about 3 skills landing 16 attacks from 16 different entities, along with giving you enough clones to pull off 2 4 illusion shatters? That is absurd levels of powercreep, to be able to get so much kitten out of using 3 skills.

    I'm not a fan of overloaded skills. And this is overloaded to kitten and back. Its a fundamentally unhealthy synergy

    Power in pvp is only really meaningful relative to others' power. If it's not meta, then it's most likely not powerful. "Power" or "how much you get out" of a set of skills is measured by how much it contributes toward winning the game, not how many NPCs they spawn.

  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 31, 2018

    @Jace al Thor.6745 said:

    @SlimChance.6593 said:
    And if fix CP and make it an "active" trait instead of one of the most powerful "passive" traits in the game, then you wouldn't have to limit phantasms.

    You still would because of F5 and SoE. Not that anyone is going to use SoE just to get more phantasms in PvP but I’ve seen people complain about it.

    It's actually really good atm if you want to abuse Phantasms with CP and Continuum Split. You summon 3 defenders, 3 disenchanters, 6 Warlocks and 3 Mages and rotate the shatters as they pop up, bonus points for being a grievers illusions/inspiration build.

    I agree that there needs to be a limit although 3 is way too low... Maybe 5 at most because thats 3 skills.

    Not to brag, but I put together a puzzle in 4 days and the box said 2-4 years.
    Please allow team queue with rewards again at our own discretion.
    Apologies if I come off as dry or blunt.

  • Exciton.8942Exciton.8942 Member ✭✭✭

    @OriOri.8724 said:

    @Kundry.1249 said:

    @OriOri.8724 said:

    @Kundry.1249 said:

    @OriOri.8724 said:

    @Jace al Thor.6745 said:

    @SlimChance.6593 said:
    Well, a major part of the mesmer design is to confuse the enemy.

    Looking at those posts, I'd say they are legitimately confused.

    But I do agree on at least one thing, something needs to be done about phantasms after the illusion rework. I'd start with changing Chronophantasma.

    Maybe make so only one phantasm per skill use is copied.

    Or maybe make it reduce the cool down of the skill itself after being used once (50%). Making it a more 'active' trait, less passive.

    If you cap phantasms to three you probably wouldn’t have to touch CP

    Take imagined burden. Use iZerker, swap to staff, use iWarlock. Boom 4 phantasms out, but your proposed "fix" would negate half of iWarlock, and that skill is designed around having 2 phantasms be summoned, because each one is pretty weak on its own.

    Capping phantasms is the wrong solution. Addressing the poweful synergies between imagined burden, CP, SotE and CS are the answer.

    Is that build even meta though?

    GS/Staff? No, not nearly. But it was meant to point out how bad of an idea capping phantasms is. That would be a horrible change to the class.

    To everyone else complaining that IB + CP isn't that great, or that it isn't meta and everything else. You are still missing the point. The phantasms were changed to be a single attack entity for a good reason. To then be able to turn around and have a single cast of a phantasm skill output 4 phantasms, essentially quadrupling the damage output they do (3x damage for iZerker due to the damage nerf from IB), not to mention doubling the clones that skill produces, is silly. And you can then turn around and do the same thing again if you run SotE.

    That synergy is not healthy for the class honestly. Quite frankly, it doesn't really matter if you think its overpowered or underpowered, or if it is meta or not. Its still not a healthy synergy, which is why something needs to change.

    @RabbitUp.8294 You don't have to gut power chrono's DPS in order to address this synergy.

    I was referring to the 16 izerker build (with staff or not). What is not healthy about it, if it's a meme build? The potential that some component of it gets buffed and becomes OP in the future? Or are you worried that it's too strong against bad players, and hence will invite too much demand for mesmer nerfs from the general populace?

    What is healthy about 3 skills landing 16 attacks from 16 different entities, along with giving you enough clones to pull off 2 4 illusion shatters? That is absurd levels of powercreep, to be able to get so much kitten out of using 3 skills.

    I'm not a fan of overloaded skills. And this is overloaded to kitten and back. Its a fundamentally unhealthy synergy

    Typical mistake people make is to link the number of button presses to effort or skill. Back in the days when DD ele was OP, it takes a lot of button press. But that is one the least skill demanding build I've ever played.

    Two of the skills you are talking about are key high CD skills chrono has at disposal. One of them is the heal skill that cuts your sustain for 30 sec if you use it offensively. By your standard, builds that rely on skills with long CD and high impact will always be the broken builds that need fixes.

    For example, in your book, signet of the ether is probably one of the most OP skills out there because of its synergies with every single one of our phantasm skills, because it doubles up their damage as you said. But in reality, it is a skill that has been struggling to see usage even after many rounds of buffs.

    You can't simply measure skill/trait power from such a simplistic view. True that in PvE, chronophantasma doubles your phantasm skill damage. But in PvP, you have to consider how likely you are gonna land those hits and also how it delays your clone spawn. Phantasmal berserker has always been a low-impact skill in PvP. Speccing heavily into enhancing it won't give you a strong build.

  • And here I thought skill cast times and cool downs were "balance mechanics". Silly me.

    Powercreep is real.

  • OriOri.8724OriOri.8724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Exciton.8942 said:

    @OriOri.8724 said:

    @Kundry.1249 said:

    @OriOri.8724 said:

    @Kundry.1249 said:

    @OriOri.8724 said:

    @Jace al Thor.6745 said:

    @SlimChance.6593 said:
    Well, a major part of the mesmer design is to confuse the enemy.

    Looking at those posts, I'd say they are legitimately confused.

    But I do agree on at least one thing, something needs to be done about phantasms after the illusion rework. I'd start with changing Chronophantasma.

    Maybe make so only one phantasm per skill use is copied.

    Or maybe make it reduce the cool down of the skill itself after being used once (50%). Making it a more 'active' trait, less passive.

    If you cap phantasms to three you probably wouldn’t have to touch CP

    Take imagined burden. Use iZerker, swap to staff, use iWarlock. Boom 4 phantasms out, but your proposed "fix" would negate half of iWarlock, and that skill is designed around having 2 phantasms be summoned, because each one is pretty weak on its own.

    Capping phantasms is the wrong solution. Addressing the poweful synergies between imagined burden, CP, SotE and CS are the answer.

    Is that build even meta though?

    GS/Staff? No, not nearly. But it was meant to point out how bad of an idea capping phantasms is. That would be a horrible change to the class.

    To everyone else complaining that IB + CP isn't that great, or that it isn't meta and everything else. You are still missing the point. The phantasms were changed to be a single attack entity for a good reason. To then be able to turn around and have a single cast of a phantasm skill output 4 phantasms, essentially quadrupling the damage output they do (3x damage for iZerker due to the damage nerf from IB), not to mention doubling the clones that skill produces, is silly. And you can then turn around and do the same thing again if you run SotE.

    That synergy is not healthy for the class honestly. Quite frankly, it doesn't really matter if you think its overpowered or underpowered, or if it is meta or not. Its still not a healthy synergy, which is why something needs to change.

    @RabbitUp.8294 You don't have to gut power chrono's DPS in order to address this synergy.

    I was referring to the 16 izerker build (with staff or not). What is not healthy about it, if it's a meme build? The potential that some component of it gets buffed and becomes OP in the future? Or are you worried that it's too strong against bad players, and hence will invite too much demand for mesmer nerfs from the general populace?

    What is healthy about 3 skills landing 16 attacks from 16 different entities, along with giving you enough clones to pull off 2 4 illusion shatters? That is absurd levels of powercreep, to be able to get so much kitten out of using 3 skills.

    I'm not a fan of overloaded skills. And this is overloaded to kitten and back. Its a fundamentally unhealthy synergy

    Typical mistake people make is to link the number of button presses to effort or skill. Back in the days when DD ele was OP, it takes a lot of button press. But that is one the least skill demanding build I've ever played.

    Two of the skills you are talking about are key high CD skills chrono has at disposal. One of them is the heal skill that cuts your sustain for 30 sec if you use it offensively. By your standard, builds that rely on skills with long CD and high impact will always be the broken builds that need fixes.

    For example, in your book, signet of the ether is probably one of the most OP skills out there because of its synergies with every single one of our phantasm skills, because it doubles up their damage as you said. But in reality, it is a skill that has been struggling to see usage even after many rounds of buffs.

    You can't simply measure skill/trait power from such a simplistic view. True that in PvE, chronophantasma doubles your phantasm skill damage. But in PvP, you have to consider how likely you are gonna land those hits and also how it delays your clone spawn. Phantasmal berserker has always been a low-impact skill in PvP. Speccing heavily into enhancing it won't give you a strong build.

    SotE is not the most OP skills out there, not by a large margin. All I'm saying is that the synergy between our traits and skills right now is fundamentally unhealthy. Point out to me where I said that this was all overpowered? Something doesn't have to be overpowered to have an unhealthy design. I mean look at Rev for crying out loud....

    And no, I'm not linking the amount of buttons pressed to the effort required or skill of playing the class. If that's what you got out of my comment then you really don't understand what I am saying. Having 3 skills pull off 16 different attacks from 16 different entities, and then prime you for 2 4 illusion shatters back to back is stupid amounts of powercreep from even PoF release. That's independent of player skill. The fact is that you are getting significantly too much out of 3 skills. This is almost exactly the same problem as a single skill being overloaded to kitten and back.

    Eyyyy I unlocked signatures

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RabbitUp.8294 said:

    @OriOri.8724 said:

    @Jace al Thor.6745 said:

    @SlimChance.6593 said:
    Well, a major part of the mesmer design is to confuse the enemy.

    Looking at those posts, I'd say they are legitimately confused.

    But I do agree on at least one thing, something needs to be done about phantasms after the illusion rework. I'd start with changing Chronophantasma.

    Maybe make so only one phantasm per skill use is copied.

    Or maybe make it reduce the cool down of the skill itself after being used once (50%). Making it a more 'active' trait, less passive.

    If you cap phantasms to three you probably wouldn’t have to touch CP

    Take imagined burden. Use iZerker, swap to staff, use iWarlock. Boom 4 phantasms out, but your proposed "fix" would negate half of iWarlock, and that skill is designed around having 2 phantasms be summoned, because each one is pretty weak on its own.

    Capping phantasms is the wrong solution. Addressing the poweful synergies between imagined burden, CP, SotE and CS are the answer.

    Changing Chronophantasma hurts the pve dps build for no reason. Same for putting a cap.

    How about targeted pvp nerfs? Nerf the overperforming phantasms directly, or increase Imagined Burden's damage reduction from 25% to 33% for pvp.

    Well considering chrono was meant as a support spec I think perhaps damage increase isn’t and shouldn’t be the priority for it. If only there was a DPS elite spec....

  • @apharma.3741 said:

    @RabbitUp.8294 said:

    @OriOri.8724 said:

    @Jace al Thor.6745 said:

    @SlimChance.6593 said:
    Well, a major part of the mesmer design is to confuse the enemy.

    Looking at those posts, I'd say they are legitimately confused.

    But I do agree on at least one thing, something needs to be done about phantasms after the illusion rework. I'd start with changing Chronophantasma.

    Maybe make so only one phantasm per skill use is copied.

    Or maybe make it reduce the cool down of the skill itself after being used once (50%). Making it a more 'active' trait, less passive.

    If you cap phantasms to three you probably wouldn’t have to touch CP

    Take imagined burden. Use iZerker, swap to staff, use iWarlock. Boom 4 phantasms out, but your proposed "fix" would negate half of iWarlock, and that skill is designed around having 2 phantasms be summoned, because each one is pretty weak on its own.

    Capping phantasms is the wrong solution. Addressing the poweful synergies between imagined burden, CP, SotE and CS are the answer.

    Changing Chronophantasma hurts the pve dps build for no reason. Same for putting a cap.

    How about targeted pvp nerfs? Nerf the overperforming phantasms directly, or increase Imagined Burden's damage reduction from 25% to 33% for pvp.

    Well considering chrono was meant as a support spec I think perhaps damage increase isn’t and shouldn’t be the priority for it. If only there was a DPS elite spec....

    Chronomancer was meant to be a support spec? Hmmm... where did you get that? From what I got is that Chronomancer is a master of time with past and future themes intact in it.

    Dancer - Elite Spec Concept for Mesmer

  • Levetty.1279Levetty.1279 Member ✭✭✭

    Can we stop trying to ruin Chronophantasma because we are under the mistaken impression that PvP still matters. Synergy between skills and traits are a good thing.

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @RabbitUp.8294 said:

    @OriOri.8724 said:

    @Jace al Thor.6745 said:

    @SlimChance.6593 said:
    Well, a major part of the mesmer design is to confuse the enemy.

    Looking at those posts, I'd say they are legitimately confused.

    But I do agree on at least one thing, something needs to be done about phantasms after the illusion rework. I'd start with changing Chronophantasma.

    Maybe make so only one phantasm per skill use is copied.

    Or maybe make it reduce the cool down of the skill itself after being used once (50%). Making it a more 'active' trait, less passive.

    If you cap phantasms to three you probably wouldn’t have to touch CP

    Take imagined burden. Use iZerker, swap to staff, use iWarlock. Boom 4 phantasms out, but your proposed "fix" would negate half of iWarlock, and that skill is designed around having 2 phantasms be summoned, because each one is pretty weak on its own.

    Capping phantasms is the wrong solution. Addressing the poweful synergies between imagined burden, CP, SotE and CS are the answer.

    Changing Chronophantasma hurts the pve dps build for no reason. Same for putting a cap.

    How about targeted pvp nerfs? Nerf the overperforming phantasms directly, or increase Imagined Burden's damage reduction from 25% to 33% for pvp.

    Well considering chrono was meant as a support spec I think perhaps damage increase isn’t and shouldn’t be the priority for it. If only there was a DPS elite spec....

    If you look at Chrono when it was first revealed it was very much a QoL spec. The run speed increase trait, Chronophantasma was supposed to help with the shatter vs phantasms problem, Wells were to give us more aoe (I even think they used the word tagging when they were showing them off), alacrity and F5 for our long cooldowns. Alacrity was almost exclusively a self buff, the only way to give it to others was through the phantasm which at the time used the bouncing mechanic. Support Chrono was made accidentally because during HoT beta they seemed to implement every idea that players had for the elite specs.

  • OriOri.8724OriOri.8724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Levetty.1279 said:
    Can we stop trying to ruin Chronophantasma because we are under the mistaken impression that PvP still matters. Synergy between skills and traits are a good thing.

    Most synergy is good. The current synergy we have is unhealthy. And, again, you don't have to ruin CP in order to address this. Changing SotE active effect would actually address all the problems I currently have with this, and that doesn't touch CP at all. Or if you leave SotE alone, CP could be changed to something like simply giving each phantasm a second attack instead of respawning a second phantasm. Lowers the synergy of these traits and skills in PvP because you have a fairly big opportunity to kill those phantasms before they get their second attack off, doesn't affect PvE negatively at all (could even be a slight buff if it ends up getting the clones out faster). Or even more basic, to only respawning a single phantasm per phantasm skill, regardless of whether the phantasm skill itself summons 1 or 2 phantasms.

    Eyyyy I unlocked signatures

  • EpicTurtle.8571EpicTurtle.8571 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'm excited for when we get permafury, 25 might, protection, swiftness, and quickness too.

  • Levetty.1279Levetty.1279 Member ✭✭✭

    @OriOri.8724 said:

    @Levetty.1279 said:
    Can we stop trying to ruin Chronophantasma because we are under the mistaken impression that PvP still matters. Synergy between skills and traits are a good thing.

    Most synergy is good. The current synergy we have is unhealthy. And, again, you don't have to ruin CP in order to address this. Changing SotE active effect would actually address all the problems I currently have with this, and that doesn't touch CP at all. Or if you leave SotE alone, CP could be changed to something like simply giving each phantasm a second attack instead of respawning a second phantasm. Lowers the synergy of these traits and skills in PvP because you have a fairly big opportunity to kill those phantasms before they get their second attack off, doesn't affect PvE negatively at all (could even be a slight buff if it ends up getting the clones out faster). Or even more basic, to only respawning a single phantasm per phantasm skill, regardless of whether the phantasm skill itself summons 1 or 2 phantasms.

    I'm glad you people never got your claws into GW1.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 31, 2018

    @Refia Montes.3205 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @RabbitUp.8294 said:

    @OriOri.8724 said:

    @Jace al Thor.6745 said:

    @SlimChance.6593 said:
    Well, a major part of the mesmer design is to confuse the enemy.

    Looking at those posts, I'd say they are legitimately confused.

    But I do agree on at least one thing, something needs to be done about phantasms after the illusion rework. I'd start with changing Chronophantasma.

    Maybe make so only one phantasm per skill use is copied.

    Or maybe make it reduce the cool down of the skill itself after being used once (50%). Making it a more 'active' trait, less passive.

    If you cap phantasms to three you probably wouldn’t have to touch CP

    Take imagined burden. Use iZerker, swap to staff, use iWarlock. Boom 4 phantasms out, but your proposed "fix" would negate half of iWarlock, and that skill is designed around having 2 phantasms be summoned, because each one is pretty weak on its own.

    Capping phantasms is the wrong solution. Addressing the poweful synergies between imagined burden, CP, SotE and CS are the answer.

    Changing Chronophantasma hurts the pve dps build for no reason. Same for putting a cap.

    How about targeted pvp nerfs? Nerf the overperforming phantasms directly, or increase Imagined Burden's damage reduction from 25% to 33% for pvp.

    Well considering chrono was meant as a support spec I think perhaps damage increase isn’t and shouldn’t be the priority for it. If only there was a DPS elite spec....

    Chronomancer was meant to be a support spec? Hmmm... where did you get that? From what I got is that Chronomancer is a master of time with past and future themes intact in it.

    If it wasn’t then it wouldn’t have had 4 wells which gave AoE effects to allies nor would it have had the ability to grant alacrity and quickness to allies like it did. I find it hard to believe ANet would have simply overlooked the amount of quickness a chrono could give out with SoI and traited version.

  • Refia Montes.3205Refia Montes.3205 Member ✭✭✭

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Refia Montes.3205 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @RabbitUp.8294 said:

    @OriOri.8724 said:

    @Jace al Thor.6745 said:

    @SlimChance.6593 said:
    Well, a major part of the mesmer design is to confuse the enemy.

    Looking at those posts, I'd say they are legitimately confused.

    But I do agree on at least one thing, something needs to be done about phantasms after the illusion rework. I'd start with changing Chronophantasma.

    Maybe make so only one phantasm per skill use is copied.

    Or maybe make it reduce the cool down of the skill itself after being used once (50%). Making it a more 'active' trait, less passive.

    If you cap phantasms to three you probably wouldn’t have to touch CP

    Take imagined burden. Use iZerker, swap to staff, use iWarlock. Boom 4 phantasms out, but your proposed "fix" would negate half of iWarlock, and that skill is designed around having 2 phantasms be summoned, because each one is pretty weak on its own.

    Capping phantasms is the wrong solution. Addressing the poweful synergies between imagined burden, CP, SotE and CS are the answer.

    Changing Chronophantasma hurts the pve dps build for no reason. Same for putting a cap.

    How about targeted pvp nerfs? Nerf the overperforming phantasms directly, or increase Imagined Burden's damage reduction from 25% to 33% for pvp.

    Well considering chrono was meant as a support spec I think perhaps damage increase isn’t and shouldn’t be the priority for it. If only there was a DPS elite spec....

    Chronomancer was meant to be a support spec? Hmmm... where did you get that? From what I got is that Chronomancer is a master of time with past and future themes intact in it.

    If it wasn’t then it wouldn’t have had 4 wells which gave AoE effects to allies nor would it have had the ability to grant alacrity and quickness to allies like it did. I find it hard to believe ANet would have simply overlooked the amount of quickness a chrono could give out with SoI and traited version.

    It does give some ally effects, 3 out of 5 wells did. But there's still WoC and GW. Not to mention that most of the support actually comes from being selfish to sharing it with SoI and Inspiration. This doesn't mean it was purely support in this aspect (it is really partly support) cause there's definitely some damage and selfishness there on its other aspects, just that base mesmer was already really good at sharing boons and Chrono compounds this with CS and Alacrity.

    Dancer - Elite Spec Concept for Mesmer

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