[WvW] All Hail D/P

30k+ backstabs in permastealth SA with absolutely zero risk lol.

Like... this was so easy not to screw up and somehow they still managed to lol.

Inb4 backstab nerfed next patch in the wake of D/P stealth-camping Deadeye.

And let us all applaud ANet’s efforts, for without them, this new fotm would not be possible.Bravo!

Alas, this one change alone has nearly sold me on buying PoF... but I don't trust Anet to let us keep good things for long. So back to the waiting game.

Even more cheese, holy fuck it just never ends does it?I saw malice was going to improve stealth attacks and i already knew this was coming.And now im going to be the idiot that doesnt abuse the cheese for his main subspec : ^ )

so whats the build for 30k backstab?

I'd like to see the normal backstab damage of the general Marauder/Zerker mix gear thief before passing judgement. If a thief with 17k hp and formidable out-of-stealth damage is consistently hitting backstabs for 30k damage, then I'll see a problem. There will always be gimmicky builds, but they are generally sneezed on and they're out of the fight.

And where is the screen shoot?

Glady for us the "Malicious backstab" and the "Backstab" are different skills. At worse, only MB gets nerfed.

I mean... If you used withdraw to build stacks while maintaining stealth with M7, you'd have to stack for a little over a minute compared to just waiting the old 20 seconds or so. That's kinda like Goku channeling a spirit-bomb before it can be used.

Then again, someone will do it.

@TwiceDead.1963 said:I mean... If you used withdraw to build stacks while maintaining stealth with M7, you'd have to stack for a little over a minute compared to just waiting the old 20 seconds or so. That's kinda like Goku channeling a spirit-bomb before it can be used.

Then again, someone will do it.

It's worse actually.

Someone will actually have a glowing sun in their head for a whole minute and will still conplain that it got One-shoot-backstab from stealth from a thief.As if it was the Thiefs fault.

@TwiceDead.1963 said:I mean... If you used withdraw to build stacks while maintaining stealth with M7, you'd have to stack for a little over a minute compared to just waiting the old 20 seconds or so. That's kinda like Goku channeling a spirit-bomb before it can be used.

Then again, someone will do it.

Yes but the old 20s or so offered only a 15/21% increase in damage.

This is 50-70% assuming you even bother to cap it lol.

With just two stacks, getting applied on steal and heal, Malicious stab is out-damaging the 5-malice backstab as of previously with zero need to wait at all. 15s in, it's dealing even more damage than previous M7 maxed out. 20s in, mark refreshes and with the trait, should increase the malice to 4.

To put things into perspective, the damage gains from the 20s point are more potent than the entirety of the critical strikes line.

Malicious Intent needs to be deleted, and even then, D/P still remains incredibly potent with so much extra free damage with so much safety via Meld.

Even DJ had a tell and previously could be blocked. This has neither source of counterplay.

Would be cool if we had more weapons than dagger.

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@TwiceDead.1963 said:I mean... If you used withdraw to build stacks while maintaining stealth with M7, you'd have to stack for a little over a minute compared to just waiting the old 20 seconds or so. That's kinda like Goku channeling a spirit-bomb before it can be used.

Then again, someone will do it.

its 70%+ 10% instead of 21% because m7+ new ironsight so with malice on mark + malice on heal its +30% but you lack the might from perfectionist with wich you were able to stack to 25 easily. BUT without might and 7 malice you still do way more damage then before with 7 malice and 25 might.thing is before you had to be really carefull on a gimmick build when to attack so it was better to stay stealthed. now with dodge stealth you can attack with pretty low risk and get that malice quickly up as you dont need any ini to go into stealth and for DJ, for now i really like marking people then perma immob with spotters shot spamm on max range, go back into stealth and position for a good stab/DJ.if i was to make a pro/cons list of the changes for stealth camp oneshot DE as of now it would probably be:pro:

• ini refund on m7 , dj itself costing 0 ini and going into stealth also costing no ini => oneshots focused builds without trickery now aswell got enough ini to attack with more then AA outside of oneshot.
• alot higher BS burst => pretty safe oneshot of any class that can threaten the deadeye on their own. if you can survive the backstab your burst will be too low to in return burst the deadeye fast enough, even if he is full glass. and no need for perfectionist spamm to achieve safe high burst means no need to remain out of combat.
• stealth on evade => not interruptable
• rifles 4 ini 5sec duration smokefield is pretty cheap compared to BP.
• no longer need to kneel for DJ and DJ is now allways unblockable ( tho most still try to reflect XD ).
• baseline and improved iron sight helps if a burst fails.cons:
• no booncorrupt from CB wich was useful before a DJ against targets with protection now you need to go rending shade ( lose a lot of sustain), use binding shadows( lose a utility slot) or just ignore it and kill them with protection.
• the new silent scope requires to be in combat and uses your evades wich might be an issue if you try to hide in structurers in WvW as you need to use more leaps or use your evades only for stealth both can lead to your death. when already in stealth the old one was better as it was a no animation, no hit stealth with 40% uptime.
• little dmg nerf to DJ it used to be 105% +21% , now its 105%+ 10% from DE traits.
• ALOT longer till malice is up if you do not attack ( tho you now do have the resources to attack with ini, that you didnt have as much before. therefor no real need to camp anymore unless ofc against stacked group of opponents but trying to onehit one of em is just trolling anyway as downstate will safe them.).

( list may change when i get more used to playing the new stuff )

to summ it up stealth camping deadeye got buffed alot to push them towards getting out of hide more frequent, this is done by giving them more resources to attack and alot better restealth. at the same time playing super safe in permastealth is punished by even longer waiting time - depending on number of opponents you still have to go for this one tho, but that is only an issue if you fight in enemy keeps. people wont rally to hunt a single deadeye openfield. on top the stealth stacking rotation now depends on the thief being infight or not and weapon swap after field for cheaper leaps wich is minimally harder mechanically with the additional emhasize on more in and out playstyle, the deadeye now will require more 'skill' to play at full potential and maybe this will change a little the bad reputation of the deadeye as such and people will see the difference between a good and a bad deadeye better.

now i need to get rid of old muscle memory..

@DeceiverX.8361 said:Malicious Intent needs to be deleted, and even then, D/P still remains incredibly potent with so much extra free damage with so much safety via Meld.

the other 2 traits you could choose over it are also not really good in a 1 vs X situation. i mean if collateral damage proced on killing the mark and on using a stealth attack on the mark then maybe, else its more a PvE trait for trashmob fights or zerging to tag downstate people.changing malicious intent to gain malice if your attack gets evaded, missed or blocked -> that would be better i guess as it helps gaining malice against targets with lots of active defense but doesnt really allow for gaining malice during camping.

edit : a little calculation i did for my self, that might be interesting for others :

damage comparison for DE malicious Backstab vs DJ now:Backstab : power coefficient m7 bonus iron sight = 2.4 1.7 1.1 = 4.488DJ : power coefficient m7 bonus iron sight = 1.65 2.05 1.1 = 3,72075before patch:Backstab : power coefficient m7 bonus = 2.4 1.21 = 2,904DJ : power coefficient m7 boni = 1.65 2.05 * 1.21= 4,092825

backstab now does more damage then DJ before the patch did and more importantly backstab does more damage then DJ does now, but avoiding a DJ is alot easier - guess i got to change my playstyle. the only thing going for DJ is the higher crit chance but maybe i can add some into my build as with dagger while fury i only got 91,2 % crit chance atm and with rifle its 100%. but with rifle i still do not allways crit with standing DJ the tooltip even standing says +20% crit chance when silent scope traited but i think it doesnt apply - if any1 else could confirm this would be cool, because with DJ you are shortly rooted like kneeling so would be nice if it was allways considered kneeling.

btw does your stealth attack from spear also have a little more base damage and same modifier as DJ ? underwater oneshots XD

@MUDse.7623 said:the only thing going for DJ is the higher crit chance but maybe i can add some into my build as with dagger while fury i only got 91,2 % crit chance atm and with rifle its 100%. but with rifle i still do not allways crit with standing DJ the tooltip even standing says +20% crit chance when silent scope traited but i think it doesnt apply - if any1 else could confirm this would be cool, because with DJ you are shortly rooted like kneeling so would be nice if it was allways considered kneeling.

I can confirm this yes. I think i killed a million bears in front of spawn in WvW earlier testing things. Standing DJ does not get the 20% increased crit chance.

i have some very bad news for all our scouts and defenders!

oke this claim i made last night..

@MUDse.7623 said:

• the new silent scope requires to be in combat and uses your evades wich might be an issue if you try to hide in structurers in WvW as you need to use more leaps or use your evades only for stealth both can lead to your death. when already in stealth the old one was better as it was a no animation, no hit stealth with 40% uptime.

but then i figured i actually could use the fact that this trait has no cooldown aside from your dodge wich is endurance regen based. it is enough to use endurance food and rune of the adventurer , then you can permastealth with just dodging.if i do that in an enemy keep to keep low profile and flip it back once i am left alone inside, the only thing my opponents will see is one of their npcs sometimes being dazed from trickery to keep myself in combat. no smokefields no nothing. and i can be 1500 range around that npc somewhere and can change the npc with every new mark ready. good luck getting me out of there then.so you have to gank me at lords if you want to get me out, for now it was possible with enough people pressuring my occasional smokefield to hope that i make a mistake and die, but with that i really dont see how you can force me out of there.only needing rifle for permastealth and no ini for it means i can now use any set on back bar without losing the insane safety. i mean i could use s/d and be actually usefull in groupfights pressuring the supporters ripping their boons, and still could use DJ. maybe a bit weaker one as ill go berserk marauder mix , but as i keep attacking i dont need a 100-0 shot, 50-0 is probably enough :D

@SoulSin.5682 said:

@TwiceDead.1963 said:I mean... If you used withdraw to build stacks while maintaining stealth with M7, you'd have to stack for a little over a minute compared to just waiting the old 20 seconds or so. That's kinda like Goku channeling a spirit-bomb before it can be used.

Then again, someone will do it.

Outside of waypointing out, what exactly are they going to do about it?

@Coldtart.4785 said:

@SoulSin.5682 said:

@TwiceDead.1963 said:I mean... If you used withdraw to build stacks while maintaining stealth with M7, you'd have to stack for a little over a minute compared to just waiting the old 20 seconds or so. That's kinda like Goku channeling a spirit-bomb before it can be used.

Then again, someone will do it.

burst speed. / stealth. count seconds and get out of his range. for m7 with only MI you need to mark serveral times, so let the mark run out before. force him to reveal himself if he wants full malice. you also need LoS to start casting the mark, deny LoS when he needs to recast and the malice will drop to 0.but ofc allways depends on surroundings. sometimes i mark a person to scare them away so i can kill their mate in peace. till they realize it its too late :3

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Coldtart.4785 said:

@SoulSin.5682 said:

@TwiceDead.1963 said:I mean... If you used withdraw to build stacks while maintaining stealth with M7, you'd have to stack for a little over a minute compared to just waiting the old 20 seconds or so. That's kinda like Goku channeling a spirit-bomb before it can be used.

Then again, someone will do it.

Here's the thing, and it's worse than people think. With Dagger/Pistol, the standard leap through smoke in to stealth combo uses two initiative skills that both do damaging hits, and as long as those hits crit then they also give a second malice stack. What that means is Mark = 1 malice, Black Powder = 2 Malice, Heartseeker = 2 Malice. That's 5 stacks... with Be Quick or Be Killed, you have 5 malice stacks, stealth and a Malicious Backstab all in less than a second and a half because of quickness. Not only that, if you are running the Trickery traitline with Thrill of the Crime and Bountiful Theft, every Mark gives you Fury, Might, Swiftness, Vigor, Quickness. You should be running Premeditation trait with this, period, for 5% additional damage (1% per boon). You will also have 1% damage from each initiative spent for the combo, (6 for Black Powder, 3 for Heartseeker). This equals out to 14% from the two traits combined.

Why run trickery over Deadly Arts? DA gives 20% damage increase and an initial burst boost from the mark, but trickery gives the boons and damage per init spent. If the combo goes well, you will burst the person down to dead from ABOVE 50% HP which means you never get the boost from Executioner at all, but you WILL get the 14% boost from Initiative spent and from Boons gained 100% of the time

In summary that means your backstab is actually boosted by 9% (Lead Attacks) + 5% (Premeditation) + 10% (Iron Sight) +50% (Malicious Backstab bonus, 5 stacks) = 74% total... that's if you had no stacks of Lead Attacks to start with, which you probably did because why not spend some initiative first and push that up to a full 80%?

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Coldtart.4785 said:

@SoulSin.5682 said:

@TwiceDead.1963 said:I mean... If you used withdraw to build stacks while maintaining stealth with M7, you'd have to stack for a little over a minute compared to just waiting the old 20 seconds or so. That's kinda like Goku channeling a spirit-bomb before it can be used.

Then again, someone will do it.

Actually funny enough he's right. With the old system and dj in particular it was really obvious that the dj was coming so you'd watch for it and reflect/ block/ dodge/ invuln when you see the line appear. For backstab there's no indication, it's a harder move to hit with but there's no warning that a backstab is coming.

Also if my understanding is correct backstab does more damage on deadeye now and now you can perm stealth without dropping any fields so there really isn't much counter play.

It'll take more patience but there is less (or none) in the way of potential counter options.

This whole redesign is frankly just as bad as the original system.

@SoulSin.5682 said:

@"TwiceDead.1963" said:I mean... If you used withdraw to build stacks while maintaining stealth with M7, you'd have to stack for a little over a minute compared to just waiting the old 20 seconds or so. That's kinda like Goku channeling a spirit-bomb before it can be used.

Then again, someone will do it.

why its not thiefs fault? i mean dont get me wrong im thief main, but if i mark you what you gonna do?im faster then you im in stealth u dont even know where fuck im, eventually i just 1 shot you.

or are you insisting all these people should go hug "save zones" all the time cus of some retarded mechanic?i have personally never been fan of any kind of stealth build its simply to easy and to dumb to play in my eyes.i like the core D/D backstab build on the other hand, but it takes a bit more then lurking in stealth waiting for right moment to strike which could be in 1 second or 1 minute later.

@Sojourner.4621 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Coldtart.4785 said:

@SoulSin.5682 said:

@TwiceDead.1963 said:I mean... If you used withdraw to build stacks while maintaining stealth with M7, you'd have to stack for a little over a minute compared to just waiting the old 20 seconds or so. That's kinda like Goku channeling a spirit-bomb before it can be used.

Then again, someone will do it.

what has that to do with what you did quote? i mean my response was how to avoid being onehit by a backstab from out of permastealth and you try to explain how fast you stack malice walking up the target and BP+HS.especially HS used in melee to hit is pretty much asking to get punished.

@Legatus.3608 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Coldtart.4785 said:

@SoulSin.5682 said:

@TwiceDead.1963 said:I mean... If you used withdraw to build stacks while maintaining stealth with M7, you'd have to stack for a little over a minute compared to just waiting the old 20 seconds or so. That's kinda like Goku channeling a spirit-bomb before it can be used.

Then again, someone will do it.

with old system you didnt need to remark to gain malice up. now you do if you dont want to attack and high malice, therefor you can try to avoid being remarked. the hit as such is harder to avoid thats correct, but now you can interrupt the even longer buildup.

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Sojourner.4621 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Coldtart.4785 said:

@SoulSin.5682 said:

@TwiceDead.1963 said:I mean... If you used withdraw to build stacks while maintaining stealth with M7, you'd have to stack for a little over a minute compared to just waiting the old 20 seconds or so. That's kinda like Goku channeling a spirit-bomb before it can be used.

Then again, someone will do it.

@Legatus.3608 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Coldtart.4785 said:

@SoulSin.5682 said:

@TwiceDead.1963 said:I mean... If you used withdraw to build stacks while maintaining stealth with M7, you'd have to stack for a little over a minute compared to just waiting the old 20 seconds or so. That's kinda like Goku channeling a spirit-bomb before it can be used.

Then again, someone will do it.

How are you supposed to know you are LOS or not against a stealth opponent? How do you skillfully avoid remark? I don't think that's a reasonable expectation.

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Sojourner.4621 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Coldtart.4785 said:

@SoulSin.5682 said:

@TwiceDead.1963 said:I mean... If you used withdraw to build stacks while maintaining stealth with M7, you'd have to stack for a little over a minute compared to just waiting the old 20 seconds or so. That's kinda like Goku channeling a spirit-bomb before it can be used.

Then again, someone will do it.

I meant to quote someone else, but even still if you know how to hit-cancel Shadow Shot as a gap closer/backstab source you're not at that great a risk of being punished for trying to quick combo max malice stacks + backstab. Remember the entire combo takes less than 1.5 seconds from steal to the end of backstab's animation for a 74% damage boost.

@Legatus.3608 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Sojourner.4621 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Coldtart.4785 said:

@SoulSin.5682 said:

@TwiceDead.1963 said:I mean... If you used withdraw to build stacks while maintaining stealth with M7, you'd have to stack for a little over a minute compared to just waiting the old 20 seconds or so. That's kinda like Goku channeling a spirit-bomb before it can be used.

Then again, someone will do it.

@Legatus.3608 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Coldtart.4785 said:

@SoulSin.5682 said:

@TwiceDead.1963 said:I mean... If you used withdraw to build stacks while maintaining stealth with M7, you'd have to stack for a little over a minute compared to just waiting the old 20 seconds or so. That's kinda like Goku channeling a spirit-bomb before it can be used.

Then again, someone will do it.

count seconds from mark and then cover as much ground as you can in one random direction so he needs to chase, while doing so try to break LoS from where you cameso he cant mark you while chasing. if you have access to short stealth use it when he has to remark. if you are running a solo roaming build you already got enough speed / stealth to avoid groups so getting away in such a situation shouldnt be too much of an issue, if it is then you still have far greater issues then a try hard deadeye. if you are not running solo, then why do you even want to avoid him attacking, i mean dont even dodge let him get you in down hes not going to finish you anyway if your mates care for you and everytime he risks to die ontop.i do like about deadeye the option to chose any fight wich got improved with better permastealth. but to kill a single opponent using only MI for malice build up, i dont know why anyone would do that. i mean its rather safe on max range to spamm some spotters shot for malice and then restealth with dodge and use a burst of your liking.for me it was important to keep permastealth and shadow meld as i need it to infiltrate keeps, before the patch that forced me into a oneshot build - now i have more options and can for example play a s/d + rifle build wich IMO is better in group fights to help taking out bunkers as we lost the CB corrupt. that why i like the patch as i now have more options.i dont think that the oneshot camper will be a big issue now, there were already only few of them at least on EU before patch. and extending the wait even longer wont draw in new people to run it IMO. i mean we will see but i think people panic too much about a possibility. even if i get oneshot for 35k backstab once a month, wont really affect my gaming experience.

@Sojourner.4621 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Sojourner.4621 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Coldtart.4785 said:

@SoulSin.5682 said:

@TwiceDead.1963 said:I mean... If you used withdraw to build stacks while maintaining stealth with M7, you'd have to stack for a little over a minute compared to just waiting the old 20 seconds or so. That's kinda like Goku channeling a spirit-bomb before it can be used.

Then again, someone will do it.

Who is going to let you black powder/heartseeker on top of them. Since BP has a ranged projectile I can see how you can get 3 stacks of malice easily...but the following heartseeker is probably just for the leap. Unless you're already in stealth so they don't see you walking towards them, but then you'd have to time it so you don't accidentally reveal yourself with Black Power. And even then I think a vast majority of players in this situation would simple evade or block your hs.

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Legatus.3608 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Sojourner.4621 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Coldtart.4785 said:

@SoulSin.5682 said:

@TwiceDead.1963 said:I mean... If you used withdraw to build stacks while maintaining stealth with M7, you'd have to stack for a little over a minute compared to just waiting the old 20 seconds or so. That's kinda like Goku channeling a spirit-bomb before it can be used.

Then again, someone will do it.

@Legatus.3608 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Coldtart.4785 said:

@SoulSin.5682 said:

@TwiceDead.1963 said:I mean... If you used withdraw to build stacks while maintaining stealth with M7, you'd have to stack for a little over a minute compared to just waiting the old 20 seconds or so. That's kinda like Goku channeling a spirit-bomb before it can be used.

Then again, someone will do it.

Its not going to work that way. Most classes cannot stealth or outrun/LOS at just the right moment and unless the difference between timers is less than 3 seconds you can just wait out a mesmer stealth for example.

I didn't like this rework because I feel it deletes rifle, but in return they made backstab too good. It should be the opposite for an elite based on rifle.