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Eater of Souls fight is too difficult.

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  • castlemanic.3198castlemanic.3198 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:

    @castlemanic.3198 said:
    The eater of souls needs to be reworked, I got super lucky that I managed to beat him on the first try because my build had plenty of cc and I accidentally broke is defiance bar before he jumps (btw, breaking his breakbar right before/as he jumps prevents his health recovery entirely, he will not go into that suck everything in phase right after).

    Like seriously, how is anyone supposed to figure it out on their own? That defiance bar barely registers on the UI.

    maybe it's just me, but I saw the defiance bar easily, and when I noticed it I focused on it.

    I should clarify i'm talking about the defiance bar when the eater of souls jumps, not when he's doing the health steal vortex. The health steal vortex is obvious, if short, however the one before he jumps barely registers because the skill takes less than a second to complete. I only started noticing it after i accidentally stunned him during the jump, because I knew to look out for it then. Otherwise it's nearly impossible to register.

    @Norseman.4280 said:
    It's predictable, that in almost everything new, people want it to be easier. Look, most people are done with this new story within a week, on a brand new expansion! That's a sign of way too easy to me. Nothing in the personal story was what I would call hard. Maybe a few retries on a few things, but I would hope for at least that!!
    Nice job ANet, on a fantastic expansion!

    For you, it's easy, for some, it can be unplayable as it is, and Path of Fire is much much much more than just it's personal story steps, much more, meaning that personal story steps can and should be made easier if there's a barrier many can't cross. This is one of those cases.

    Whataboutism is disingenuous at best. If you join a debate and provide little to no proof when the other side provides lots of evidence, you can't then declare yourself the winner of that debate. I won't engage with bad faith arguments.

  • Rio.4259Rio.4259 Member ✭✭

    @Boysenberry.1869 said:
    I cheesed it with my necro minions. They ran over and attacked it at beyond max range and it became confused and just kind of wondered around until it died.

    I did this, too. >.> I was giving it one more try, thought I was gonna die, and ran away. Minions stayed engaged and he kinda just....randomly spun in place until the minions chipped him down. I know he's gonna be a pain on my other characters, though.

  • The fight difficulty was fine... Either have a couple interrupts, or movement skills to get out of range of the health drain. Every class has that or a combination of them.

    If you are having issues here, wait until the last battle mission... I will be waiting for your new thread.

  • JustTrogdor.7892JustTrogdor.7892 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 3, 2017

    Finally got this on my power reaper, yeah I know.. Basically what I did was DPS for a few seconds, then run away when I saw the circle. Then dodge, dodge.. The further away you are when he sucks on your soul or whatever it is the less he gets. Then run in DPS for a few seconds, then run as far away as you can again until he does the soul sucking thing, dodge when you can. Then run back and DPS. Wash and repeat and you can do it.

    tl:dr

    DPs at start. Then run away. Create distance so the soul thing doesn't work as well if you miss a dodge or two. Wash and repeat.

  • I was able to do this easily on my vanilla Guardian with Scepter and Torch. Just have to kite and dodge roll when the life drain starts.

  • Haishao.6851Haishao.6851 Member ✭✭✭

    @castlemanic.3198 said:

    For you, it's easy, for some, it can be unplayable as it is, and Path of Fire is much much much more than just it's personal story steps, much more, meaning that personal story steps can and should be made easier if there's a barrier many can't cross. This is one of those cases.

    I don't think it should not be made easier. It's already very easy and personal story fights serve as training. This is where you learn how the different game mechanics works so that you can then apply them in open world events and everywhere else in the game. This fight requires nothing more than dodging and/or canceling 1 skill with a crowd control while doing moderate amount of damage and keeping your health in check. If you fail at that you can take some distance to prevent him from leeching too much and try again.

  • castlemanic.3198castlemanic.3198 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Haishao.6851 said:
    I don't think it should not be made easier. It's already very easy and personal story fights serve as training. This is where you learn how the different game mechanics works so that you can then apply them in open world events and everywhere else in the game. This fight requires nothing more than dodging and/or canceling 1 skill with a crowd control while doing moderate amount of damage and keeping your health in check. If you fail at that you can take some distance to prevent him from leeching too much and try again.

    Nowhere have I ever seen a fight with an enemy that has a crucial half a second break bar followed by a short breakbar and the ability to heal at least a quarter of it's health, in a fight where you can't open your inventory, have no ability to get a friend to aid you or able to leave and go back to prep for it in an efficient manner.

    The final three boss fights in Hearts and Minds where if you're even downed the fight restarts and your allies cannot be rezzed either has NO content preparing for it, and NO content similar to it later on, and I doubt we'll ever come across a fight with those exact circumstances again, same with the eater of souls fight. There's very little in the way of traditional gameplay for that mission, and as a result should be adjusted properly to be easier and doable in an efficient manner. Slowing down that initial jump so that the break bar has two seconds to be broken instead of the half a second it is would make all the difference in the fight and would make it that much more manageable for people who can't do it as it is.

    Whataboutism is disingenuous at best. If you join a debate and provide little to no proof when the other side provides lots of evidence, you can't then declare yourself the winner of that debate. I won't engage with bad faith arguments.

  • This boss fight is actually extremely easy, you need only understand it's mechanics. My only gripe is that the model is pretty much a reused Mouth of Zhaitan.

    How to beat this boss with any profession, based on my experience:
    1. Do not use your CC to break his break bar right off the bat, just DPS him until he is about to leap. Save your CC, do not use it.
    2. Once the circle appears signaling his jump destination, move quickly away from it as once he lands, he will laser you (removing all boons) and pull you in. Stability is ineffective. Dodge away from him to avoid getting too close. Movement skills like Shadowstep, Blink, Lightning Reflexes can help too.
    3. As soon as he stops his laser, ready your CC and run at him full speed into attacking distance. Once he looks up he will begin to prepare to self-heal, CC him before the circle around him gets "fully charged" to prevent him from healing (the circle charges very fast so be aware). He will then be stunned as his entire break bar is broken and you can DPS him.
    4. Once he recovers he will run around some more for a little while, attacking you. Keep attacking him until he prepares to leap, and repeat the previous steps.
    5. His behaviors change a bit once he gets low, but overall it is very much the same rinse and repeat scenario. Just watch for that leap and you will do fine.

    (I might be missing something here, it's been a few days since I've fought him. I think I covered it all though.)

    I keep hearing about bugs with AI such as Mesmer clones and ranger pets healing him. I haven't done this boss with anything but Spellbreaker and Holosmith thus far, but I recommend maybe saving a low CD shatter for when he begins his tractor-beam-laser attack so you can clear all clones before he can pull them in. Keep your pet on passive or be ready to swap pets before they get munched on. I haven't tested this or anything but if there is nothing there for him to munch on it should not be a problem, I would think.

    The fight can be kind of intense, but everything in this game should not be a walk in the park. Learn the mechanics and timing. I'm positive that every class and reasonable build can beat him. All you need is one CC on a decently low CD, at the very least.

    Best of luck defeating the Soul Muncher.

  • BlaqueFyre.5678BlaqueFyre.5678 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 3, 2017

    I don’t think it was too difficult I did it in one attempt with no issues, using Marauder gear, all of the Attacks from the boss have large tells allowing ample reaction time.> @castlemanic.3198 said:

    @Haishao.6851 said:
    I don't think it should not be made easier. It's already very easy and personal story fights serve as training. This is where you learn how the different game mechanics works so that you can then apply them in open world events and everywhere else in the game. This fight requires nothing more than dodging and/or canceling 1 skill with a crowd control while doing moderate amount of damage and keeping your health in check. If you fail at that you can take some distance to prevent him from leeching too much and try again.

    Nowhere have I ever seen a fight with an enemy that has a crucial half a second break bar followed by a short breakbar and the ability to heal at least a quarter of it's health, in a fight where you can't open your inventory, have no ability to get a friend to aid you or able to leave and go back to prep for it in an efficient manner.

    The final three boss fights in Hearts and Minds where if you're even downed the fight restarts and your allies cannot be rezzed either has NO content preparing for it, and NO content similar to it later on, and I doubt we'll ever come across a fight with those exact circumstances again, same with the eater of souls fight. There's very little in the way of traditional gameplay for that mission, and as a result should be adjusted properly to be easier and doable in an efficient manner. Slowing down that initial jump so that the break bar has two seconds to be broken instead of the half a second it is would make all the difference in the fight and would make it that much more manageable for people who can't do it as it is.

    You never fought Vinetooth Prime then, Eater Of Souls has similar mechanics toned extremely toned down and is easily soloable

  • Samnang.1879Samnang.1879 Member ✭✭✭✭

    rip.... no wonder yall hate raids and 100cm...
    even this simple easy boss is hard to some ppl... it's not even about op builds or classes... u just have to cc or dodge...

    Anet: give us in-game customizable human NPC companion please
    Please, no more balance changes, or at least reset our gears so we don't have to waste gold changing gears every time.
    Please have option to not receive bloodstone dusts, empyreal fragments, dragonite etc

  • castlemanic.3198castlemanic.3198 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:
    You never fought Vinetooth Prime then, Eater Of Souls has similar mechanics toned extremely toned down and is easily soloable

    Except Eater of Souls doesn't allow friends to help fight, nor does it allow you to use inventory and restock on item effects like food as a part of the story in that instance. There is nowhere else in the entire game that has both of those things occuring at the same time. You're forced to solo it because your friends turn into a useless sprite with limited capability.

    The tuning of the initial jump to allow it to be more easily cced is all i'm asking for. That's not even a major rework of the fight's design, it still leaves the whole life steal vortex thing to happen if players mismanage their ccs, but having a better chance at stopping it from even happening allows more people through that story gate without drastically changing the fight.

    A bunch of people forget that personal story is supposed to be tuned for a solo, unoptimized build used by a player who's not a pro at the game. Slight tunings like the one i'm suggesting don't drastically redesign the fight, they change it to be more manageable for those having a difficult time. There's plenty of open world experiences to help build up experience for more difficult fights, but this fight is literally impossible to have a friend help because of the design of the instance (not that relying on a friend should even be a considered alternative), so just slightly retuning the fight helps the vast majority of players who go through the story content. It's not even a small ask that the personal story of all things be made easier, why are people taking it like it's a demand for all enemies to be killed in one shot.

    Whataboutism is disingenuous at best. If you join a debate and provide little to no proof when the other side provides lots of evidence, you can't then declare yourself the winner of that debate. I won't engage with bad faith arguments.

  • Deihnyx.6318Deihnyx.6318 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 3, 2017

    @Seera.5916 said:
    Correct me if I'm wrong:

    1. It's the first instance where we are locked out of our own inventory. Which means we can't access our bank. We can't reapply boosters. We can't use our repair canisters. We can't buy a more defensive set of gear if we've been zerker so long we've gotten rid of the non-zerker gear in our inventory. The only players that were able to change gear/weapons alongside traits and skills were those who happened to carry different stated sets in their inventory since we weren't locked out of the Equipment tab in the Hero panel. We had only 7 tries to kill the boss before the lack of repair canisters would start punishing us. Especially if we didn't have a spare set of gear in our inventory. There's no warning on this or anything.
    2. It's already after a long fight with Balthazar for those of us who aren't the best at the game. This makes quitting and coming back a harder pill to swallow than if there was a check point where players could leave and come back to the story at a later time. I likely would have quit and come back after the second failure on Eater of Souls due to a lack of time issue if it had not been that I had already invested at least 1.25 hours into the mission.
    3. It's the first fight where those besides the instance starter can't really help. So players who have an L2P issue who would normally group up, find that that isn't as helpful here.
    4. I don't recall many bosses who do their big attacks back to back in the same order every time. If any. Recognizing that this boss does that may not be obvious for everyone. Especially for those who just use numbers to get past mechanics. This gets even less likely of an instance players would find if they don't do Dungeons, Fractals, or Raids on a regular basis.

    I think there wouldn't be as much of a backlash if there had been a check point between the Balthazar fight and the Realm of the Dead portion. Where players could leave and come back after reformulating a strategy or just cooling off.

    A checkpoint, maybe. But many people here are asking to nerf the fight. And that's a definite no.

    It is not because some people haven't assimilated some fight mechanics that everything needs to be nerfed to suit their needs. It's the second expansion, about time to get some challenging content.
    I don't see why because this is story, everything should be stupidly easy.

    Also, you can still change your traits, there's a minimum you can do.

  • faceurfears.1472faceurfears.1472 Member
    edited October 3, 2017

    If there are any Rangers out there, please tell me how you took this boss down! I have tried twice and can't come close to getting him low in health. It's been very frustrating for me. I am a solo player and I am not some ultimate gamer. So any advice would be much appreciated :)

  • Korval.3751Korval.3751 Member ✭✭✭

    @Egg Shennn.6240 said:

    @Deihnyx.6318 said:
    These A> @Egg Shennn.6240 said:

    @Korval.3751 said:

    @Avelione.6075 said:
    I HATE bosses that require very SPECIFIC approach : /that's very characteristic to Asian games. Blah. I want to fight, not solve a puzzle while my char. almost gets killed zillion times :/ And now, I have to do this nasty story part 3rd time! I wish I could just switch to the Soul Eater fight, not fight Balthazar and have all these idiotic conversations again. It made a great impression on me the 1st time, but it's just pissing me off now...
    I use my Guardian for the story, since I'm kinda the best with him, but kitten. Try not to use boons with a guardian.... I prepared for Balthazar for the 2nd approach and it went quick, but then there is no way to change my build for the soul eater! What kind of an idea is that?!?!?!

    That's literally the point of the fight. It requires forethought ahead of the fight. Before you enter the story, you need to think ahead past the fight with Balt to the fight with the Eater. I changed my Guardian spec from Firebrand to Dragonhunter and changed my utilities and elites to speed and CC-related stuff. Then I just circled Joko's cage. The fight was much easier the second time around.

    TL;DR this is NOT a melee fight. It's a ranged fight with a strong mix of speed and CC. All classes have these abilities. You will not be able to faceroll this boss, so don't try.

    How exactly are you supposed to "think ahead to the fight with the Eater" when you've never gotten there before? Psychic?
    Of course, once people have done it and posted how the fight is and what the best tactics are, you could prepare for it specifically, but if you're playing your story like a lot of people you have no idea what the fight will entail until you're there and see. Can't prepare for something when you don't know what is needed beforehand...

    You are NOT supposed to defeat a boss first try!
    It's a boss, it requires some L2P, there's nothing wrong with thinking of a strategy, failing, and redoing it better.

    I can't believe most people here never played a old school RPG, or any game with decent challenge for that matter....

    Don't quote me in your jabbering. I replied to the person saying to think ahead. You can't "think ahead" before you've encountered the bloody foe and have no idea what his mechanics are. Think ahead and bring these specific skills and do this specific strategy without knowing what's needed?

    The point is, it's a drawn out process to get to the Eater, so I'm sure it was a major pain for people that failed and had to go back through all the blah blah blah. I killed him the first time, but the build I had wouldn't do it well, and as I said, ended up catching him and let minions slowly kill him, which wasn't much fun, but more fun than dying and redoing all the kitten before just to get back to him.

    I meant precisely what I typed by "think ahead." It literally means don't spec and gear up for the Balthazar fight. Do that for the Eater of Souls fight. That's the one that requires forethought not facerolling.

  • Korval.3751Korval.3751 Member ✭✭✭

    @castlemanic.3198 said:
    The eater of souls needs to be reworked, I got super lucky that I managed to beat him on the first try because my build had plenty of cc and I accidentally broke is defiance bar before he jumps (btw, breaking his breakbar right before/as he jumps prevents his health recovery entirely, he will not go into that suck everything in phase right after).

    Like seriously, how is anyone supposed to figure it out on their own? That defiance bar barely registers on the UI.

    That's not super lucky. That's actually how you're supposed to defeat the boss.

  • Korval.3751Korval.3751 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 3, 2017

    @faceurfears.1472 said:
    If there are any Rangers out there, please tell me how you took this boss down! I have tried twice and can't come close to getting him low in health. It's been very frustrating for me. I am a solo player and I am not some ultimate gamer. So any advice would be much appreciated :)

    I don't play Ranger but AFAIK they have plenty of CC abilities, plus a run buff, plus a pet, plus a longbow. Use all of that to your advantage. The goal is to chip away at its health without letting it get close to you and drain your health. If it does, you have dodge rolls and enough stamina for back-to-back pairs. That's enough to prevent it from stealing health (e.g. it can't drain an evading target). Lastly, interrupt its healing ability as it will attempt to heal back to 100%. So it's super important you stop it. If successful the boss will be stunned for a few seconds. That's when you wallop on it, but remember to do it from a distance and don't get greedy. Time it, and you should be victorious! Also, I recommend run around Joko's cage. It creates a nice buffer against the boss bee-lining you. Also, if you can do ground damage or traps I highly recommend that, especially those that do damage and slow like caltrops.

  • Substance E.4852Substance E.4852 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @faceurfears.1472 said:
    If there are any Rangers out there, please tell me how you took this boss down! I have tried twice and can't come close to getting him low in health. It's been very frustrating for me. I am a solo player and I am not some ultimate gamer. So any advice would be much appreciated :)

    Spec as beastmaster and stay in BM the whole fight.

  • Faux Play.6104Faux Play.6104 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 4, 2017

    I would agree with the OP for the following reasons:
    1) game was a face roll up to that point
    2) No indication you were going to fight a major boss. You were supposed to call taimi.
    3) The fight is at the end of a long mission and hard counters some builds.
    4) YOU CAN'T CHANGE YOUR BUILD OR EVEN WEAPONS SET. EVEN IF YOU DIE AND ARE NOT IN COMBAT. -- correction you can't if you equip weapons by double clicking in inventory, but you can through hero panel.

    If this was the level of difficulty of all the missions up to this point I have no issue with it. However this was a total outlier. Either make everything leading up to it harder, alter the mechanic so it isn't extremely difficult for some builds and easy for others, or let people change their comp when they realize what they specked isn't going to work.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Egg Shennn.6240 said:

    @Korval.3751 said:

    @Avelione.6075 said:
    I HATE bosses that require very SPECIFIC approach : /that's very characteristic to Asian games. Blah. I want to fight, not solve a puzzle while my char. almost gets killed zillion times :/ And now, I have to do this nasty story part 3rd time! I wish I could just switch to the Soul Eater fight, not fight Balthazar and have all these idiotic conversations again. It made a great impression on me the 1st time, but it's just pissing me off now...
    I use my Guardian for the story, since I'm kinda the best with him, but kitten. Try not to use boons with a guardian.... I prepared for Balthazar for the 2nd approach and it went quick, but then there is no way to change my build for the soul eater! What kind of an idea is that?!?!?!

    That's literally the point of the fight. It requires forethought ahead of the fight. Before you enter the story, you need to think ahead past the fight with Balt to the fight with the Eater. I changed my Guardian spec from Firebrand to Dragonhunter and changed my utilities and elites to speed and CC-related stuff. Then I just circled Joko's cage. The fight was much easier the second time around.

    TL;DR this is NOT a melee fight. It's a ranged fight with a strong mix of speed and CC. All classes have these abilities. You will not be able to faceroll this boss, so don't try.

    How exactly are you supposed to "think ahead to the fight with the Eater" when you've never gotten there before? Psychic?
    Of course, once people have done it and posted how the fight is and what the best tactics are, you could prepare for it specifically, but if you're playing your story like a lot of people you have no idea what the fight will entail until you're there and see. Can't prepare for something when you don't know what is needed beforehand...

    Once you see his life drain for the first time you can adapt your strategy. Maybe if the boss is healing back to full you need to use your brain and find out why. It's not rocket science

  • Supz.9836Supz.9836 Member ✭✭

    I have completed the story myself but agree completely the fight should occur in its own part of the story, the first fight and long series of dialogue and mini fight in between should be another.

  • castlemanic.3198castlemanic.3198 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Korval.3751 said:

    @castlemanic.3198 said:
    The eater of souls needs to be reworked, I got super lucky that I managed to beat him on the first try because my build had plenty of cc and I accidentally broke is defiance bar before he jumps (btw, breaking his breakbar right before/as he jumps prevents his health recovery entirely, he will not go into that suck everything in phase right after).

    Like seriously, how is anyone supposed to figure it out on their own? That defiance bar barely registers on the UI.

    That's not super lucky. That's actually how you're supposed to defeat the boss.

    It is super lucky because I discovered it by accident. I was getting really frustrated up until that point, because i was too busy trying to dodge roll out of the way during his swirling vortex of life steal to be able to effectively cc him during that period, and finding out i could cc him before he even does the jump with it's half a second breakbar does, in fact, mean I was lucky to discover that method.

    Whataboutism is disingenuous at best. If you join a debate and provide little to no proof when the other side provides lots of evidence, you can't then declare yourself the winner of that debate. I won't engage with bad faith arguments.

  • Deihnyx.6318Deihnyx.6318 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 3, 2017

    @castlemanic.3198 said:

    @Korval.3751 said:

    @castlemanic.3198 said:
    The eater of souls needs to be reworked, I got super lucky that I managed to beat him on the first try because my build had plenty of cc and I accidentally broke is defiance bar before he jumps (btw, breaking his breakbar right before/as he jumps prevents his health recovery entirely, he will not go into that suck everything in phase right after).

    Like seriously, how is anyone supposed to figure it out on their own? That defiance bar barely registers on the UI.

    That's not super lucky. That's actually how you're supposed to defeat the boss.

    It is super lucky because I discovered it by accident. I was getting really frustrated up until that point, because i was too busy trying to dodge roll out of the way during his swirling vortex of life steal to be able to effectively cc him during that period, and finding out i could cc him before he even does the jump with it's half a second breakbar does, in fact, mean I was lucky to discover that method.

    Please look at quite a decent number of posts in this thread. Many people have given strategies that work.
    Also even if you miss the cc window, you can simply run away, and he won't heal. The description under his health bar also give clues. It can't possible be "luck" for everyone who figured it out.

    It's a L2P issue. You figured it out and that's great, but there's no reason to nerf it because some players can't figure it out first try. It doesn't mean they're less good or anything, simply that easy content for the sake of easy content only serves a category of people who want to faceroll everything without effort. A boss is a boss and in most games a boss isn't meant to be defeated with simplicity.

    There's also some people who consider the vanilla campaign/hot boring merely for the fact that it is too easy and offers no challenge, so it basically becomes a series of talk, fight, move, talk fight move, repeat. It is a bit unfair to -systematically- nerf everything for the category of players who like easy and leave out players who like thinking of efficient ways to win a fight. It's not like it was a nearly impossible fight. If they can take time to ask for nerf, they have time to look at strategies or even just ask a guildy.

  • castlemanic.3198castlemanic.3198 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Deihnyx.6318 said:
    Please look at quite a decent number of posts in this thread. Many people have given strategies that work.

    It's a L2P issue. You figured it out and that's great, but there's no reason to nerf it because some players can't figure it out first try. It doesn't mean they're less good or anything, simply that easy content for the sake of easy content only serves a category of people who try to faceroll everything without effort. A boss is a boss and in most games a boss isn't meant to be defeated with simplicity.

    There's also some people who consider the vanilla campaign/hot boring merely for the fact that it is too easy and offers no challenge, so it basically becomes a series of talk, fight, move, talk fight move, repeat. It is a bit unfair to -systematically- nerf everything for the category of players who like easy and leave out players who like thinking of efficient ways to win a fight.

    Those strategies work for people who look at the forums, the vast majority of players don't look at the forums or reddit, and that is where the issue lies. People who don't look at the forums, don't look up guides and just play the game.

    Is it really so important that the personal story, of all things in this game, the purely soloable content of the game, not be nerfed to accommodate the vast majority of the playerbase?

    Like, this is the thing that baffles me about the people complaining about those asking for nerfs, this isn't open world content, this isn't legendary bounties or metas, we're talking about some of the only soloable content in the game and asking it to become soloable for all people.

    How is that such a divisive ask that soloable content be made soloable to all players?

    Whataboutism is disingenuous at best. If you join a debate and provide little to no proof when the other side provides lots of evidence, you can't then declare yourself the winner of that debate. I won't engage with bad faith arguments.

  • The content IS soloable for everyone. Just gotta learn how to do it.

    This is GW style stuff right here. If you think this one solo story instance is bad, I strongly recommend not playing GW1. Learning from your failures is part of getting better at the game, and I'm glad ANet has taken some steps over the years to encourage their player base to become more skilled. Yeah, it's frustrating sometimes, but the great thing about learning is that it opens up new horizons for your experience.

    I remember back when GW2 launched, and doing dungeons with undergeared, level-appropriate groups, before specializations, when people hadn't even unlocked their elite skills, etc. What the experience taught me was that 1) Dying was a natural part of the game experience, and 2) You needed to be flexible in your approach to solving problems. Now, at level 80 that all kinda fell apart, but those lessons stuck with me, so I've resisted all the calls to go pure Zerk, etc., because I learned early on that having survivability through traits and gear made the game MUCH more palatable, and really made it quite easy, but that you also can't go too tanky if you're doing solo content because it takes FOREVER.

    People just need to learn the game better, swap some stuff around, and find something works. If you're failing at a fight like this, it's possible you've been carried by some meta build that suddenly doesn't work anymore, or by a tanky build that lives through most content, but has numbed you to specific content that requires timelier counters. But GW has always been, since GW1, about being adaptable and flexible, so you just gotta adapt. Hopefully, you'll get past it, because the story really only gets better after this instance. :P

  • castlemanic.3198castlemanic.3198 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Manijin.3428 said:
    The content IS soloable for everyone. Just gotta learn how to do it.

    This is GW style stuff right here. If you think this one solo story instance is bad, I strongly recommend not playing GW1. Learning from your failures is part of getting better at the game, and I'm glad ANet has taken some steps over the years to encourage their player base to become more skilled. Yeah, it's frustrating sometimes, but the great thing about learning is that it opens up new horizons for your experience.

    I remember back when GW2 launched, and doing dungeons with undergeared, level-appropriate groups, before specializations, when people hadn't even unlocked their elite skills, etc. What the experience taught me was that 1) Dying was a natural part of the game experience, and 2) You needed to be flexible in your approach to solving problems. Now, at level 80 that all kinda fell apart, but those lessons stuck with me, so I've resisted all the calls to go pure Zerk, etc., because I learned early on that having survivability through traits and gear made the game MUCH more palatable, and really made it quite easy, but that you also can't go too tanky if you're doing solo content because it takes FOREVER.

    People just need to learn the game better, swap some stuff around, and find something works. If you're failing at a fight like this, it's possible you've been carried by some meta build that suddenly doesn't work anymore, or by a tanky build that lives through most content, but has numbed you to specific content that requires timelier counters. But GW has always been, since GW1, about being adaptable and flexible, so you just gotta adapt. Hopefully, you'll get past it, because the story really only gets better after this instance. :P

    There's being flexible and there's being completely unable to do soloable content. Sometimes it's a learn to play issue, this is not a learn to play issue, and I'm speaking as someone who has finished it. There are a thousand reasons why someone isn't as good at the game as you, and 'not being good enough' is only one of them, this needs to get nerfed to accommodate players who enjoy the solo content, because they can't even bring in friends to help, those friends are turned into useless wisps, and they can't even access their inventory as well, making the situation much harder than standard GW2 gameplay, and if i remember, gw1 was all about having a full party to complete everything, whereas this one situation in gw2, the only one like it, is now impossible for some because they can't do things they could regularly do in the rest of the game. While yes, that does require some adapting, you're asking people who are suddenly kitten in a couple of ways to further adapt to a boss that can fully heal itself if someone doesn't have the required cc, and in which having cc is the only solution to the problem, but the window in which to use that cc is extremely small for the maximum benefit.

    Sounds nothing like GW1 to me. People are having issues in a soloable experience, it needs to be looked at and nerfed. The most tasteful nerf I can think of is having that initial jumps breakbar be extended from a mere half a second to two or three seconds. That's all it would take to make the experience go from unplayable to manageable Because some people just have high ping or low fps based on things out of their control like what country they live in, but there's also things with disabilities too, people who just don't have a fast enough reaction time, and on top of that some classes will have a harder time with it too if they have longer cast times for ccs.

    Whataboutism is disingenuous at best. If you join a debate and provide little to no proof when the other side provides lots of evidence, you can't then declare yourself the winner of that debate. I won't engage with bad faith arguments.

  • tigirius.9014tigirius.9014 Member ✭✭✭

    @Bloodtau.4672 said:
    The fight: punishes you for taking boons, punishes you for taking little defiance bar reduction skills, punishes you for taking no movement benefiting skills and punishes you for using your endurance...
    some classes don;t have access to all that.

    Ridiculous yep. They seem to revel in making bosses that make class mechanics completely useless. It's a sick obsession really. Give class huge amount of CC - Make it useless.

  • @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Egg Shennn.6240 said:

    @Korval.3751 said:

    @Avelione.6075 said:
    I HATE bosses that require very SPECIFIC approach : /that's very characteristic to Asian games. Blah. I want to fight, not solve a puzzle while my char. almost gets killed zillion times :/ And now, I have to do this nasty story part 3rd time! I wish I could just switch to the Soul Eater fight, not fight Balthazar and have all these idiotic conversations again. It made a great impression on me the 1st time, but it's just pissing me off now...
    I use my Guardian for the story, since I'm kinda the best with him, but kitten. Try not to use boons with a guardian.... I prepared for Balthazar for the 2nd approach and it went quick, but then there is no way to change my build for the soul eater! What kind of an idea is that?!?!?!

    That's literally the point of the fight. It requires forethought ahead of the fight. Before you enter the story, you need to think ahead past the fight with Balt to the fight with the Eater. I changed my Guardian spec from Firebrand to Dragonhunter and changed my utilities and elites to speed and CC-related stuff. Then I just circled Joko's cage. The fight was much easier the second time around.

    TL;DR this is NOT a melee fight. It's a ranged fight with a strong mix of speed and CC. All classes have these abilities. You will not be able to faceroll this boss, so don't try.

    How exactly are you supposed to "think ahead to the fight with the Eater" when you've never gotten there before? Psychic?
    Of course, once people have done it and posted how the fight is and what the best tactics are, you could prepare for it specifically, but if you're playing your story like a lot of people you have no idea what the fight will entail until you're there and see. Can't prepare for something when you don't know what is needed beforehand...

    Once you see his life drain for the first time you can adapt your strategy. Maybe if the boss is healing back to full you need to use your brain and find out why. It's not rocket science

    The build makes a huge difference, and when you have NOT seen the battle/foe before, you can't have prepped a build suitable for it, so you can be stuck for a long time. The build I had, couldn't burst him like some suggest, and long enough range to stay well away on Necro, staff it would take an hour to bring him down, IF I never got caught ever by his heal, since one mistake and he erased what took so lng to do.

    I love the posts acting like I don't know how to play and or thinking I had to have failed to beat him just because I point out that when people said to THINK AHEAD to the battle, I say that you can't when you've never seen the fight. The majority of GW2 players never come near these or other forums, so they won't have ever read about the battle before doing the story the first time. Which means that a lot of people have and will encounter that fight with builds that make it way more difficult than it would be, or so slow that they don't even want to proceed... And if they die, having to go back so far and waste so much time to get to the eater again isn't enjoyable.

    Earlier, someone says combat doesn't have to be fun, well, that's moronic, the point of playing the game is to enjoy it, battles should be fun. Fun doesn't mean easy, but it means not slow, tedious, or frustrating. It's the basic storyline, not high end content. The fact that groups of less skilled players can't play together to get through it makes the situation worse., not only making your friends you play with mostly useless, but making it boring as all hell for them too.

  • Zaltys.7649Zaltys.7649 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 3, 2017

    @Deihnyx.6318 said:
    It's a L2P issue. You figured it out and that's great, but there's no reason to nerf it because some players can't figure it out first try. It doesn't mean they're less good or anything, simply that easy content for the sake of easy content only serves a category of people who want to faceroll everything without effort.

    I didn't think that it'd be necessary to say it, but... everyone plays MMORPGs for different reasons. Some enjoy combat, some don't. For some, combat is just an annoying roadblock that gets in the way of the enjoyable things: story, exploration, crafting, playing the market, jumping puzzles, etc.

    Here's a thought: what if the storyline had featured a difficult jump puzzle that you needed to complete to advance? And no help from mesmers. 'Get good at jumping, learn to play'. Do you think that everyone would've been happy with that? This is no different.

    Forcing everyone to 'get good' in something that they don't enjoy is never good for the game. Seen it happen numerous times over the decades: the 'casuals' quit, and the 'hardcore' players aren't enough to support further development.

  • I switched to ranged and it became an easy fight. I'm not trying to poke at the folks having a hard time but there are times when you have to adapt to the fight and not the other way around.

    The future not set. There is no fate but what we make for ourselves.
    Engineer Advocate - MEGA "Make Engineer Great Again"
    Member of LinuxMasterRace

  • Deihnyx.6318Deihnyx.6318 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 3, 2017

    @castlemanic.3198 said:

    @Manijin.3428 said:
    The content IS soloable for everyone. Just gotta learn how to do it.

    This is GW style stuff right here. If you think this one solo story instance is bad, I strongly recommend not playing GW1. Learning from your failures is part of getting better at the game, and I'm glad ANet has taken some steps over the years to encourage their player base to become more skilled. Yeah, it's frustrating sometimes, but the great thing about learning is that it opens up new horizons for your experience.

    I remember back when GW2 launched, and doing dungeons with undergeared, level-appropriate groups, before specializations, when people hadn't even unlocked their elite skills, etc. What the experience taught me was that 1) Dying was a natural part of the game experience, and 2) You needed to be flexible in your approach to solving problems. Now, at level 80 that all kinda fell apart, but those lessons stuck with me, so I've resisted all the calls to go pure Zerk, etc., because I learned early on that having survivability through traits and gear made the game MUCH more palatable, and really made it quite easy, but that you also can't go too tanky if you're doing solo content because it takes FOREVER.

    People just need to learn the game better, swap some stuff around, and find something works. If you're failing at a fight like this, it's possible you've been carried by some meta build that suddenly doesn't work anymore, or by a tanky build that lives through most content, but has numbed you to specific content that requires timelier counters. But GW has always been, since GW1, about being adaptable and flexible, so you just gotta adapt. Hopefully, you'll get past it, because the story really only gets better after this instance. :P

    There's being flexible and there's being completely unable to do soloable content. Sometimes it's a learn to play issue, this is not a learn to play issue, and I'm speaking as someone who has finished it. There are a thousand reasons why someone isn't as good at the game as you, and 'not being good enough' is only one of them, this needs to get nerfed to accommodate players who enjoy the solo content, because they can't even bring in friends to help, those friends are turned into useless wisps, and they can't even access their inventory as well, making the situation much harder than standard GW2 gameplay, and if i remember, gw1 was all about having a full party to complete everything, whereas this one situation in gw2, the only one like it, is now impossible for some because they can't do things they could regularly do in the rest of the game. While yes, that does require some adapting, you're asking people who are suddenly kitten in a couple of ways to further adapt to a boss that can fully heal itself if someone doesn't have the required cc, and in which having cc is the only solution to the problem, but the window in which to use that cc is extremely small for the maximum benefit.

    Sounds nothing like GW1 to me. People are having issues in a soloable experience, it needs to be looked at and nerfed. The most tasteful nerf I can think of is having that initial jumps breakbar be extended from a mere half a second to two or three seconds. That's all it would take to make the experience go from unplayable to manageable Because some people just have high ping or low fps based on things out of their control like what country they live in, but there's also things with disabilities too, people who just don't have a fast enough reaction time, and on top of that some classes will have a harder time with it too if they have longer cast times for ccs.

    How is that not a learn to play issue?
    Really, what are these "thousands reasons", what is it that makes new generation of gamers so unable to tolerate a single challenge?
    Strategies were given for pretty much ALL classes about how to do it, EVEN if you have difficulties (which you SHOULD at some point in a game), you can simply stay away from the boss whe he does his infamous jump attack. How, like... how, does that translate to "unable to do solo content"??
    If it was unplayable, nobody would manage it. There would be much more people asking for nerfs, and there wouldn't be many strategies about it, or people saying it wasn't that hard.
    It is because Anet constantly nerf everything worth little challenge in story that we get pugs in meta that have no idea how to do any mechanics of any boss.

    It's a game for everyone yes, but they have the entire core game, plus HoT, worth of easy content, and they have guides here and there, there is no excuse for asking for nerf not even a week after expansion release (it was started within the first week).

    And no, GW1 had nothing to do with this constant faceroll of story missions.
    Remember Augury Rock? Remember having to defeat your double? Remember the siege in Droknar with Confessor Dorian? Remember the fight with Varesh? The fight with Shiro? Remember that missions in Maguuma where you were fighting another team of white mantle ? All of that content could be done solo too.
    Everything needed to know some mechanics, and you couldn't change ANYTHING about your build once in the instance. Elite zones? If you wipes, you had to restart it all.

    And people were not complaining about every little challenge just about constantly.
    It baffles me that people don't realize how games in general have become increasingly easier, with checkpoint every 2 minutes and basically no need for strategy or anything, and STILL find a way to want it easier.

    @Zaltys.7649 said:

    @Deihnyx.6318 said:
    It's a L2P issue. You figured it out and that's great, but there's no reason to nerf it because some players can't figure it out first try. It doesn't mean they're less good or anything, simply that easy content for the sake of easy content only serves a category of people who want to faceroll everything without effort.

    I didn't think that it'd be necessary to say it, but... everyone plays MMORPGs for different reasons. Some enjoy combat, some don't. For some, combat is just a pointless roadblock that gets in the way of the enjoyable things: story, exploration, crafting, playing the market, etc.

    Here's a thought: what if the storyline had featured a difficult jump puzzle that you needed to complete to advance? And no help from mesmers. 'Get good at jumping, learn to play'. Do you think that everyone would've been happy with that? This is no different.

    Forcing everyone to 'get good' in something that they don't enjoy is never good for the game. Seen it happen numerous times over the decades: the 'casuals' quit, and the 'hardcore' players aren't enough to support further development.

    Yeah I would be happy with jumping puzzles, but that's another story.
    Everyone play MMOs for different reasons. The problem comes when it's about a fight that is absolutely about mechanics and because people don't want to bother with a few simple mechanics, wants to nerf it so that nobody can enjoy it. Rather than asking for nerfing, you can ask for guiding, and you'll find out you don't need to waste time waiting for anet to nerf anything, you'll become better YOURSELF.
    It's not just story, people want to nerf the chef because this is "impossible", they want to nerf the memory mastery because "impossible"...
    Yeah well if everything is impossible let's just have us redo silverwastes 1000 more times and give us all the rewards immediately. Farming seems popular at least.

  • Seera.5916Seera.5916 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Deihnyx.6318 said:

    @castlemanic.3198 said:

    @Manijin.3428 said:
    The content IS soloable for everyone. Just gotta learn how to do it.

    This is GW style stuff right here. If you think this one solo story instance is bad, I strongly recommend not playing GW1. Learning from your failures is part of getting better at the game, and I'm glad ANet has taken some steps over the years to encourage their player base to become more skilled. Yeah, it's frustrating sometimes, but the great thing about learning is that it opens up new horizons for your experience.

    I remember back when GW2 launched, and doing dungeons with undergeared, level-appropriate groups, before specializations, when people hadn't even unlocked their elite skills, etc. What the experience taught me was that 1) Dying was a natural part of the game experience, and 2) You needed to be flexible in your approach to solving problems. Now, at level 80 that all kinda fell apart, but those lessons stuck with me, so I've resisted all the calls to go pure Zerk, etc., because I learned early on that having survivability through traits and gear made the game MUCH more palatable, and really made it quite easy, but that you also can't go too tanky if you're doing solo content because it takes FOREVER.

    People just need to learn the game better, swap some stuff around, and find something works. If you're failing at a fight like this, it's possible you've been carried by some meta build that suddenly doesn't work anymore, or by a tanky build that lives through most content, but has numbed you to specific content that requires timelier counters. But GW has always been, since GW1, about being adaptable and flexible, so you just gotta adapt. Hopefully, you'll get past it, because the story really only gets better after this instance. :P

    There's being flexible and there's being completely unable to do soloable content. Sometimes it's a learn to play issue, this is not a learn to play issue, and I'm speaking as someone who has finished it. There are a thousand reasons why someone isn't as good at the game as you, and 'not being good enough' is only one of them, this needs to get nerfed to accommodate players who enjoy the solo content, because they can't even bring in friends to help, those friends are turned into useless wisps, and they can't even access their inventory as well, making the situation much harder than standard GW2 gameplay, and if i remember, gw1 was all about having a full party to complete everything, whereas this one situation in gw2, the only one like it, is now impossible for some because they can't do things they could regularly do in the rest of the game. While yes, that does require some adapting, you're asking people who are suddenly kitten in a couple of ways to further adapt to a boss that can fully heal itself if someone doesn't have the required cc, and in which having cc is the only solution to the problem, but the window in which to use that cc is extremely small for the maximum benefit.

    Sounds nothing like GW1 to me. People are having issues in a soloable experience, it needs to be looked at and nerfed. The most tasteful nerf I can think of is having that initial jumps breakbar be extended from a mere half a second to two or three seconds. That's all it would take to make the experience go from unplayable to manageable Because some people just have high ping or low fps based on things out of their control like what country they live in, but there's also things with disabilities too, people who just don't have a fast enough reaction time, and on top of that some classes will have a harder time with it too if they have longer cast times for ccs.

    How is that not a learn to play issue?
    Really, what are these "thousands reasons", what is it that makes new generation of gamers so unable to tolerate a single challenge?
    Strategies were given for pretty much ALL classes about how to do it, EVEN if you have difficulties (which you SHOULD at some point in a game), you can simply stay away from the boss whe he does his infamous jump attack. How, like... how, does that translate to "unable to do solo content"??
    If it was unplayable, nobody would manage it. There would be much more people asking for nerfs, and there wouldn't be many strategies about it, or people saying it wasn't that hard.
    It is because Anet constantly nerf everything worth little challenge in story that we get pugs in meta that have no idea how to do any mechanics of any boss.

    It's a game for everyone yes, but they have the entire core game, plus HoT, worth of easy content, and they have guides here and there, there is no excuse for asking for nerf not even a week after expansion release (it was started within the first week).

    And no, GW1 had nothing to do with this constant faceroll of story missions.
    Remember Augury Rock? Remember having to defeat your double? Remember the siege in Droknar with Confessor Dorian? Remember the fight with Varesh? The fight with Shiro? Remember that missions in Maguuma where you were fighting another team of white mantle ? All of that content could be done solo too.
    Everything needed to know some mechanics, and you couldn't change ANYTHING about your build once in the instance. Elite zones? If you wipes, you had to restart it all.

    And people were not complaining about every little challenge just about constantly.
    It baffles me that people don't realize how games in general have become increasingly easier, with checkpoint every 2 minutes and basically no need for strategy or anything, and STILL find a way to want it easier.

    Someone in Australia who has bad ping just due to distance from the server may not be able to break the bar fast enough with their ping.

    People with a physical disability that make the quick play next to impossible or even impossible.

    Older players whose hand eye coordination has started to go down as happens when we get older.

  • here the problem that I have adapting too I try to get some range and the thing closes in. Also if it get the slightest hit with the heal mechanic it heals it 50 to 75% which erases all progress and for casual player that is what makes it unplayable. At least that has been my experience.

  • I agree that this boss can be quite easy, but if you don't have access to skills that take down their breakbar quickly it could become quite annoying. My mirage is using a pistol, so with pistol 5, i was able to break the cc bar on it, making it an easy encounter.

    Probably an easy "fix" on this boss is to make the CC breakbar prolong it's duration. Right now it's REALLY short, and you basically need an instant daze or stun skill to make him stop healing himself. Many casuals don't have the awareness or reaction time to do it. So it's probably easiest to prolong this breakbar duration to 5 seconds or so without having to change anything else of the mechanics. This gives a window in which players have enough time to react.

  • Deihnyx.6318Deihnyx.6318 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 3, 2017

    @Zaltys.7649 said:

    @Deihnyx.6318 said:
    It's a L2P issue. You figured it out and that's great, but there's no reason to nerf it because some players can't figure it out first try. It doesn't mean they're less good or anything, simply that easy content for the sake of easy content only serves a category of people who want to faceroll everything without effort.

    I didn't think that it'd be necessary to say it, but... everyone plays MMORPGs for different reasons. Some enjoy combat, some don't. For some, combat is just a pointless roadblock that gets in the way of the enjoyable things: story, exploration, crafting, playing the market, etc.

    Here's a thought: what if the storyline had featured a difficult jump puzzle that you needed to complete to advance? And no help from mesmers. 'Get good at jumping, learn to play'. Do you think that everyone would've been happy with that? This is no different.

    Forcing everyone to 'get good' in something that they don't enjoy is never good for the game. Seen it happen numerous times over the decades: the 'casuals' quit, and the 'hardcore' players aren't enough to support further development.

    @Seera.5916 said:

    @Deihnyx.6318 said:

    @castlemanic.3198 said:

    @Manijin.3428 said:
    The content IS soloable for everyone. Just gotta learn how to do it.

    This is GW style stuff right here. If you think this one solo story instance is bad, I strongly recommend not playing GW1. Learning from your failures is part of getting better at the game, and I'm glad ANet has taken some steps over the years to encourage their player base to become more skilled. Yeah, it's frustrating sometimes, but the great thing about learning is that it opens up new horizons for your experience.

    I remember back when GW2 launched, and doing dungeons with undergeared, level-appropriate groups, before specializations, when people hadn't even unlocked their elite skills, etc. What the experience taught me was that 1) Dying was a natural part of the game experience, and 2) You needed to be flexible in your approach to solving problems. Now, at level 80 that all kinda fell apart, but those lessons stuck with me, so I've resisted all the calls to go pure Zerk, etc., because I learned early on that having survivability through traits and gear made the game MUCH more palatable, and really made it quite easy, but that you also can't go too tanky if you're doing solo content because it takes FOREVER.

    People just need to learn the game better, swap some stuff around, and find something works. If you're failing at a fight like this, it's possible you've been carried by some meta build that suddenly doesn't work anymore, or by a tanky build that lives through most content, but has numbed you to specific content that requires timelier counters. But GW has always been, since GW1, about being adaptable and flexible, so you just gotta adapt. Hopefully, you'll get past it, because the story really only gets better after this instance. :P

    There's being flexible and there's being completely unable to do soloable content. Sometimes it's a learn to play issue, this is not a learn to play issue, and I'm speaking as someone who has finished it. There are a thousand reasons why someone isn't as good at the game as you, and 'not being good enough' is only one of them, this needs to get nerfed to accommodate players who enjoy the solo content, because they can't even bring in friends to help, those friends are turned into useless wisps, and they can't even access their inventory as well, making the situation much harder than standard GW2 gameplay, and if i remember, gw1 was all about having a full party to complete everything, whereas this one situation in gw2, the only one like it, is now impossible for some because they can't do things they could regularly do in the rest of the game. While yes, that does require some adapting, you're asking people who are suddenly kitten in a couple of ways to further adapt to a boss that can fully heal itself if someone doesn't have the required cc, and in which having cc is the only solution to the problem, but the window in which to use that cc is extremely small for the maximum benefit.

    Sounds nothing like GW1 to me. People are having issues in a soloable experience, it needs to be looked at and nerfed. The most tasteful nerf I can think of is having that initial jumps breakbar be extended from a mere half a second to two or three seconds. That's all it would take to make the experience go from unplayable to manageable Because some people just have high ping or low fps based on things out of their control like what country they live in, but there's also things with disabilities too, people who just don't have a fast enough reaction time, and on top of that some classes will have a harder time with it too if they have longer cast times for ccs.

    How is that not a learn to play issue?
    Really, what are these "thousands reasons", what is it that makes new generation of gamers so unable to tolerate a single challenge?
    Strategies were given for pretty much ALL classes about how to do it, EVEN if you have difficulties (which you SHOULD at some point in a game), you can simply stay away from the boss whe he does his infamous jump attack. How, like... how, does that translate to "unable to do solo content"??
    If it was unplayable, nobody would manage it. There would be much more people asking for nerfs, and there wouldn't be many strategies about it, or people saying it wasn't that hard.
    It is because Anet constantly nerf everything worth little challenge in story that we get pugs in meta that have no idea how to do any mechanics of any boss.

    It's a game for everyone yes, but they have the entire core game, plus HoT, worth of easy content, and they have guides here and there, there is no excuse for asking for nerf not even a week after expansion release (it was started within the first week).

    And no, GW1 had nothing to do with this constant faceroll of story missions.
    Remember Augury Rock? Remember having to defeat your double? Remember the siege in Droknar with Confessor Dorian? Remember the fight with Varesh? The fight with Shiro? Remember that missions in Maguuma where you were fighting another team of white mantle ? All of that content could be done solo too.
    Everything needed to know some mechanics, and you couldn't change ANYTHING about your build once in the instance. Elite zones? If you wipes, you had to restart it all.

    And people were not complaining about every little challenge just about constantly.
    It baffles me that people don't realize how games in general have become increasingly easier, with checkpoint every 2 minutes and basically no need for strategy or anything, and STILL find a way to want it easier.

    Someone in Australia who has bad ping just due to distance from the server may not be able to break the bar fast enough with their ping.

    People with a physical disability that make the quick play next to impossible or even impossible.

    Older players whose hand eye coordination has started to go down as happens when we get older.

    • Australian raiders are a thing, and lots are pretty good at it. Not that it makes it easier for them, but it's doable and as said by many you can simply range this fight and have no timing issue.
    • Would affect hard content like raiding, but there are still strategies that doesn't require fast thinking, aoe that do CC and stuff, and again, ranging.
    • Adapting a build has nothing to do with ping, disability or slow reaction.

    Just so you know, It took me a bit to get the mechanics and I was doing most of the fight ranged, effectively ignoring the core mechanic... and it's definitely doable.

  • <- Did the fight on a Carrion Geared Ele, Sword/Focus, with 0 hard CC, first time. Has a slow computer that plays the game only with the lowest settings, not great internet. It's a L2P issue.

    GW1 was designed around being group content, and had the frequent issue of having to worry about overpulls, spike damage, condition lockdown, and lots of other problems just from random wandering packs of PvE mobs. If one member of your party went down, it was a massive loss and could lead to a wipe. Escort missions? Frequently could lead to a wipe. Timed missions? Wipe. Some missions were just intensely difficult in their own right, regardless of party comp. GW1 was a hard game that required you to change your builds around on a mission by mission basis, and frequently wiping or failing was just a way that you learned your build was deficient in some way.

    But no. All of a sudden GW2 can't do that. It's terrible game design to encourage your players to learn and understand the depth of your game system. The fight isn't hard. Players are bad.

  • Haishao.6851Haishao.6851 Member ✭✭✭

    @Faux Play.6104 said:
    I would agree with the OP for the following reasons:
    1) game was a face roll up to that point
    2) No indication you were going to fight a major boss. You were supposed to call taimi.
    3) The fight is at the end of a long mission and hard counters some builds.
    4) YOU CAN'T CHANGE YOUR BUILD OR EVEN WEAPONS SET. EVEN IF YOU DIE AND ARE NOT IN COMBAT.

    If this was the level of difficulty of all the missions up to this point I have no issue with it. However this was a total outlier. Either make everything leading up to it harder, alter the mechanic so it isn't extremely difficult for some builds and easy for others, or let people change their comp when they realize what they specked isn't going to work.

    This is also a faceroll. You can just spam 1 and dodge a few time.
    It's not a major boss. It's not even legendary and doesn't even have that much HP. Balthazar was a major boss, he's the main antagonist.
    The fight is at the end of a mission that is pretty much the same length as other missions and is no counter to any build since there's no build that cannot dodge or take distance by running away.
    You can change your build or weapons at anytime when out of combat after you've found your weapons using Hero (H) window like you would normally do..

    @castlemanic.3198 said:

    Is it really so important that the personal story, of all things in this game, the purely soloable content of the game, not be nerfed to accommodate the vast majority of the playerbase?

    Like, this is the thing that baffles me about the people complaining about those asking for nerfs, this isn't open world content, this isn't legendary bounties or metas, we're talking about some of the only soloable content in the game and asking it to become soloable for all people.

    How is that such a divisive ask that soloable content be made soloable to all players?

    It's important that the personal story do not get nerfed because it's the only tutorial this game have. It's teaching you how to play.
    It make it so then when you show up in openworld event, you know what a CC and a defiance bar are and actually able to contribute more than just upscaling events for everyone else.
    If that fight could even teach a single ranger that their longbow skill 4 isn't used to push things out of aoe, but to break defiance bar, it is mission accomplished in my opinion.

  • The arrogance of the L2P commenters in here just infuriates me.

    I'm not a terrible player; I got through all the story content before, completely on my own. And yet with the soul eater I had to give up after over an hour of not getting his HP below 60%. This is because I do not have a high DPS build and all the CC I had was slow CC. I knew the mechanic, but I simply could not manage the timing. Later that evening I managed to cheese it, but that is clearly not the way you are meant to do it.

    IMO; If you recognise the mechanics and know what to do about it; you should be able to do any fight. But in this fight the extremely short CC window makes it near impossible for some. And to add insult to injury; if you give up you have to do this stupidly long instance alllll over again.

    I would feel differently if it was completely optional content like raids, but it's not.

  • castlemanic.3198castlemanic.3198 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 3, 2017

    @Deihnyx.6318 said:
    How is that not a learn to play issue?
    Really, what are these "thousands reasons", what is it that makes new generation of gamers so unable to tolerate a single challenge?

    disability, old age, simply not having a fast enough reaction time, ping, slow computer, being in a country with crappy internet, life commitments, injuries, mental illnesses, physical illnesses, temporary issues, unstable/unreliable internet, the list goes onh and on.

    Strategies were given for pretty much ALL classes about how to do it, EVEN if you have difficulties (which you SHOULD at some point in a game), you can simply stay away from the boss whe he does his infamous jump attack. How, like... how, does that translate to "unable to do solo content"??

    See above reasons why some people may not have the ability to do so, I don't get how you can be so apathetic to the needs of others. Also not everyone reads the forums, reddit or online guides, seem to have ignored that point, havent you?

    If it was unplayable, nobody would manage it. There would be much more people asking for nerfs, and there wouldn't be many strategies about it, or people saying it wasn't that hard.

    Unplayable to some. That's the key here, I've always, always, said that it's unplayable to some.

    It is because Anet constantly nerf everything worth little challenge in story that we get pugs in meta that have no idea how to do any mechanics of any boss.

    For good reason, to make the core story playable to all, how is that a bad thing?

    EDIT: didn;t read the second half there, so lemme leave my original statement and add to it. Nerfing the personal story is, in and of itself, not the bad idea you think it to be. It is how they have nerfed it that doesn't, in any way, teach the players how to effectively tackle certain scenarios. The nerf i suggest, having the breakbar last longer, still teaches the mechanics of dealing with a breakbar, still shows players that, at times, there will be abilities that need to be interrupted through cc. there are smart ways of nerfing boss fights without crippling or ruining the fight as a whole, simply extending the length of time breakbars exist is smarter than reducing the amount of health regained, the amount of damage done, or removing the unique mechanic all together.

    It's a game for everyone yes, but they have the entire core game, plus HoT, worth of easy content, and they have guides here and there, there is no excuse for asking for nerf not even a week after expansion release (it was started within the first week).

    Why should path of fire suddenly ask that a solo experience become unplayable to some who have had no issues up to now? And again, some people don't read guides, forums or reddit, so what is their solution?

    And no, GW1 had nothing to do with this constant faceroll of story missions.
    Remember Augury Rock? Remember having to defeat your double? Remember the siege in Droknar with Confessor Dorian? Remember the fight with Varesh? The fight with Shiro? Remember that missions in Maguuma where you were fighting another team of white mantle ? All of that content could be done solo too.
    Everything needed to know some mechanics, and you couldn't change ANYTHING about your build once in the instance. Elite zones? If you wipes, you had to restart it all.

    Different game, different mechanics and most important of all, a completely different audience.

    EDIT: I will wholly admit on flipflopping on this specific argument, you don't need to call me out on it, i messed up and am now taking a different stance. Sometimes an opinion can change mid argument and mine changed here. While it is important to make sure your core audience is still adhered to from a previous game, it's also important to expand that where possible to include more players for the health of the franchise as a whole. I messed up on the flip flop, but feel free to tackle this argument.

    And people were not complaining about every little challenge just about constantly.
    It baffles me that people don't realize how games in general have become increasingly easier, with checkpoint every 2 minutes and basically no need for strategy or anything, and STILL find a way to want it easier.

    Oh gee, I wonder why that is.

    Could it possibly be that the gaming industry has expanded ten thousand fold and now we have hundreds of millions of gamers world wide, each one of them with different tastes and abilities in gaming as a whole? Gosh, it's almost like the human experience is completely dependent on an individuals preferences, and that games like GW2 have expanded to an audience much larger than it previously had in GW1. Who'd have thunk?

    One fight, one single mechanic. You also seem to have completely missed the entire point of my suggestion, simply make the breakbar last longer. Guess what? That still teaches people about momentary break bars that need to be broken to stop overpowered abilities from happening, that still involves thinking out of the conventional "spam 1 until dead" narrative that l2p commenters constantly degrade others for using, that still does it's job in having that difficult ability need to be dealt with as a whole, it just makes it manageable to all where before, only some could deal with it.

    Is that, really, at it's core, such a huge ask, to extend the duration of a breakbar from half a second to 2 seconds? Are you really so offended at the idea that something could possibly need tweaking for people who are having a difficult time at a solo experience? Is it such an insult to the GW2 community as a whole that a single boss fight have a single mechanic tweaked slightly to help involve players and allow them to complete the whole Path of Fire personal story where they could not do so beforehand?

    I don't understand this hostile attitude to anyone who wants something to be manageable at a soloable level. The fight doesn't even need to be wholly redone or balanced, just make the breakbars last longer. The complete lack of ability to think about how someone else may be struggling is absolutely fascinating in ways that they bend over backwards to create arguments out of thin air why something should remain unplayable to some people. Empathy people, think about others who aren't as good/experienced at the game as you are, it's not a huge ask.

    Whataboutism is disingenuous at best. If you join a debate and provide little to no proof when the other side provides lots of evidence, you can't then declare yourself the winner of that debate. I won't engage with bad faith arguments.

  • Korval.3751Korval.3751 Member ✭✭✭

    @castlemanic.3198 said:

    @Korval.3751 said:

    @castlemanic.3198 said:
    The eater of souls needs to be reworked, I got super lucky that I managed to beat him on the first try because my build had plenty of cc and I accidentally broke is defiance bar before he jumps (btw, breaking his breakbar right before/as he jumps prevents his health recovery entirely, he will not go into that suck everything in phase right after).

    Like seriously, how is anyone supposed to figure it out on their own? That defiance bar barely registers on the UI.

    That's not super lucky. That's actually how you're supposed to defeat the boss.

    It is super lucky because I discovered it by accident. I was getting really frustrated up until that point, because i was too busy trying to dodge roll out of the way during his swirling vortex of life steal to be able to effectively cc him during that period, and finding out i could cc him before he even does the jump with it's half a second breakbar does, in fact, mean I was lucky to discover that method.

    Discovering a strategy by accident is super lucky. That only means you figured out the mechanics of fight quicker than most. That's not an insult but a testament to your boss killing skills. :+1:

  • Korval.3751Korval.3751 Member ✭✭✭

    @Anabaena.3670 said:
    The arrogance of the L2P commenters in here just infuriates me.

    I'm not a terrible player; I got through all the story content before, completely on my own. And yet with the soul eater I had to give up after over an hour of not getting his HP below 60%. This is because I do not have a high DPS build and all the CC I had was slow CC. I knew the mechanic, but I simply could not manage the timing. Later that evening I managed to cheese it, but that is clearly not the way you are meant to do it.

    IMO; If you recognise the mechanics and know what to do about it; you should be able to do any fight. But in this fight the extremely short CC window makes it near impossible for some. And to add insult to injury; if you give up you have to do this stupidly long instance alllll over again.

    I would feel differently if it was completely optional content like raids, but it's not.

    Arrogance? It's not arrogance to tell people that the fight is doable and to provide strategies; which is what most of us have been doing.

    If you don't understand Anet by now you should know this is how they make their content. They hit you consecutively easy stuff, then crazy hard. They did that routinely in GW1 and all the expansions.

  • HnRkLnXqZ.1870HnRkLnXqZ.1870 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 11, 2017

    I have to disagree with OP. The battle was challenging and very fun. One of the best bossfights I had in this game.

    When I first heared about the Eater of Souls in the instance, I had no clue what it was. But then I saw his silhouette in the distant and my first thought was "Please, not you!"

    I played the original personal story and I had a very long and ugly time with the Mouth of Zhaitan in Kitah Manse. As far as I remember, it took me more than 8 tries. One try means: armor 100% broken, ragequit and try again a few days later. This beast was a pain to defeat, and I was close to tears when I finally managed it - alone. Back then I had hardly a clue about game mechanics, combos or how reflects work. I was a noob. The entire Orr maps were a walk over the mine-field for me.

    So, yeah. The silhouette alone stroke fear and panic into me. Quickly checked my skills, motar kit and thumper turret equiped, here we go. From my point of view, it was a regular LS3 bossfight. First I did the stupid dps faceroll thing, which surprisingly worked pretty well in the previous fights. On first heal I was as confused as you. Tried again, healed again. Then I tried kiting. It worked a little, but when I turned arround after 10 minutes, its HP was still full, or again full? Then I tried to use my cc skills on the breakbar. But that kitten thing only appeared for a short time, during his attack charge. It remembered me instantly on that mushroom-HP in Auric Basin, which has exactly the same issue, with a even harder breakbar. So I started fighting again, trying to interrupt his attacks. Foolish as I was, I did not replace my skills with the battering ram. I got it down to 40%, messed up timing, back at 80 %. Got it to 30 %, messed up timing, back at 70%. When I had it at 5 %, I messed up timing again, but it luckyly was close to my thumper turret and so I defeated it.

    Compared to the Mouth of Zaithan, it was way easier. But I have two major problems with this boss:

    • We still do not have any proper tutorial, explaining new players CC skills and most meta builds do not contain cc-skills as well. When new players ask for help, they get directed to meta-builds (looking at this community) and in the field we have an army of people who dps all the time, but have no clue how to cc.
    • During the Mordremoth bossfight, we have an instructor (Laranthir?) who explains when to CC the boss. Personally I enjoyed figuring out this bosses weakpoints on my own. But the playerbase we deal with today is not much improvising any more. In bossfights like the Tripple Trouble, Tequatl or the Shatterer there are commanders, giving specific instructions on when to use what skill, with voice commands. People get used to that. Although it would be a giant step back and a slap into the developers face, I would appreciate to have some hints and instructions from that ghost lady. According to the story, she is a teacher anyway. That means she has good eyes and can figure out things fast. She could give the player a hint after ... 5 minutes?

    Note: About that L2P issue. If you started with GW2 now, the learning curve is actually a solid vertical line upwards. The longer you have played before, the more flat the curve is to you. Those of us who have played through the personal story, the living stories 1-3 are well prepared. We faced the introduction if the breakbar, learned its behaviour and the effects of low and high cc-skills, step by step. We learned bossmechanics and attack-systems, in the dragon-minion fights in the mother-tree area and in the silver-wastes. Those fights sharpened our eyes and skills. Those episodes are locked away for a large group of players. Some do not even know, they exist. For us, it is not an impossible task to defeat this boss. But imagine, purchasing this gamenow or returning after a long break without any knowledge about the changes in combat. Do you think you could stand a chance against any of these bosses? I doubt I could. I would get beaten up a few times, come to the forums and ask for help. And probably even complain, that the boss is unbeatable.

  • Deihnyx.6318Deihnyx.6318 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 3, 2017

    @Anabaena.3670 said:
    The arrogance of the L2P commenters in here just infuriates me.

    It's got nothing to do with arrogance. L2P means what it means, ask for help, read guides BEFORE saying it's impossible. It's not meant to be arrogant, but is a kitten good answer to people who are constantly asking to nerf the game to suit their own needs. Same to be said about chef mastery and all.
    The funny thing is that most people here actually MANAGED to do it, while saying it's impossible.
    That is ridiculous.

    @castlemanic.3198 said:
    disability, old age, simply not having a fast enough reaction time, ping, slow computer, being in a country with crappy internet, life commitments, injuries, mental illnesses, physical illnesses, temporary issues, unstable/unreliable internet, the list goes onh and on.

    I already answered to that: You have people RAIDING with high ping just fine.
    I'm sorry but life reasons aren't an excuse to make everything constantly easier. Changing something will end up affecting other people who liked the content. Adapting and a build and asking for help is nothing crazy. Do not hide lazyness behind some moral concepts.

    @castlemanic.3198 said:
    See above reasons why some people may not have the ability to do so, I don't get how you can be so apathetic to the needs of others. Also not everyone reads the forums, reddit or online guides, seem to have ignored that point, havent you?

    So people can come in the forums and ask for nerfs, but they can't read guides in the same thread?
    If it's about being lazy and impacting a game original vision because of it? Yes, totally apathetic.

    @castlemanic.3198 said:
    If it was unplayable, nobody would manage it. There would be much more people asking for nerfs, and there wouldn't be many strategies about it, or people saying it wasn't that hard.

    Yeah, a few GW1 fights seemed impossible to me at the beginning, now I would do them 5 years after without thinking too much about it... why? Cause I learned how they work, learned the mechanics and all.

    @castlemanic.3198 said:
    For good reason, to make the core story playable to all, how is that a bad thing?

    It is playable to all, in fact most players here, even among those who complain, managed to get the fight, we have thousands of gryphons already, and people talk about the end game everywhere. If it was elitist content like some of you seem to believe, that wouldn't be the case. The fact is, a minority only is complaining.

    @castlemanic.3198 said:
    Why should path of fire suddenly ask that a solo experience become unplayable to some who have had no issues up to now? And again, some people don't read guides, forums or reddit, so what is their solution?

    A bugged content is unplayable, broken gameplay resulting in RNG movement could be considered unplayable, in this case you can't say unplayable. Otherwise Dark Souls is unplayable, Mario Bros is unplayable, Tomb Raider is unplayable, and basically all games till this modern era of triple AAA interactive movies are unplayable.
    A solo experience doesn't mean it has to be facerolled. I don't know if that's a millenial concept but I've never seen that in any game.
    And again, if you can come on a forum and complain about difficulty, it's just as easy to look for help instead.

    @castlemanic.3198 said:

    And no, GW1 had nothing to do with this constant faceroll of story missions.

    Different game, different mechanics and most important of all, a completely different audience.

    Its audience is certainly wider, but GW1 veterans are still there and deserve better than see absolutely ALL content being incredibly and frustratingly made easy to suit the needs of (a few) new people. Right now the only "end game content" is raids and some high level fractals, and that's it.
    I'm one of the player who prefer a difficult fight 1 time than 100 times farming the same easy instance to get the same reward. Two different audiences, but right now the "easy" audience clearly got the most content. This same audience is also nitpicking at raids to have them made easier, and meta (KotJ, Ires Serpent), it just never stops.

    @castlemanic.3198 said:
    Is that, really, at it's core, such a huge ask, to extend the duration of a breakbar from half a second to 2 seconds? Are you really so offended at the idea that something could possibly need tweaking for people who are having a difficult time at a solo experience? Is it such an insult to the GW2 community as a whole that a single boss fight have a single mechanic tweaked slightly to help involve players and allow them to complete the whole Path of Fire personal story where they could not do so beforehand?
    I don't understand this hostile attitude to anyone who wants something to be manageable at a soloable level. The fight doesn't even need to be wholly redone or balanced, just make the breakbars last longer. The complete lack of ability to think about how someone else may be struggling is absolutely fascinating in ways that they bend over backwards to create arguments out of thin air why something should remain unplayable to some people. Empathy people, think about others who aren't as good/experienced at the game as you are, it's not a huge ask.

    Again, please leave out the morale out of that, It's got nothing to do with empathy, I do not recognize struggling in a video game as a valid reason for making said game easier. It's a game, it's not real life. It's not the end of the world if you don't win a fight first try.

    If we take the following case: 50% wants the game easy, 50% wants it challenging. All the easy missions (a vast majority of this game) are impacting players who like it challenging, and all challenging missions are impacting those who want it easy.
    You are basically telling me that people who want it easy should always have the last word. That somehow, they have priority and we should all accept to have our game made super easy for them, even though this is already the majority of the content in the game.
    Well, I simply don't agree, and I'm pretty sure there's less than 50% who want it easy.

    The ONLY acceptable case would be to have a CM (hard mode) for these missions, like we had with Mordremoth. In absence of that, when you ask to make a fight easier even though you got it (and most people here), you are basically telling us we won't be allowed this challenge anymore, and you refuse to see it as an issue, because you don't see the value in appreciating a good fight.
    Same issue, only reversed. Only there's a lot more easy missions in the game.

    Struggling for boss fights is absolutely normal and should become a norm again. It's what makes people learn, make game feel that they last longer and give some fulfillment when you accomplish something.
    Even if you don't have this feeling of accomplishment, you will have learned some things and will do better next time.
    If you can't see the CC, then just range it, it's doable and work. You have a way of going through the fight.

  • Deihnyx.6318Deihnyx.6318 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:
    Note: About that L2P issue. If you started with GW2 now, the learning curve is actually a solid vertical line upwards. The longer you have played before, the more flat the curve is to you. Those of us who have played through the personal story, the living stories 1-3 are well prepared. We faced the introduction if the breakbar, learned its behaviour and the effects of low and high cc-skills, step by step. We learned bossmechanics and attack-systems, in the dragon-minion fights in the mother-tree area and in the silver-wastes. Those fights sharpened our eyes and skills. Those episodes are locked away for a large group of players. Some do not even know, they exist. For us, it is not an impossible task to defeat this boss. But imagine, purchasing this gamenow or returning after a long break without any knowledge about the changes in combat. Do you think you could stand a chance against any of these bosses? I doubt I could. I would get beaten up a few times, come to the forums and ask for help. And probably even complain, that the boss is unbeatable.

    That is indeed a very good point. However just like most games, new players shouldn't start with the last expansion.
    I do agree however that it would be neat to get rid of this paywall behind living season, as it impacted the "skill progression" of a lot of players. Core Tyria doesn't require such skills.

  • castlemanic.3198castlemanic.3198 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Deihnyx.6318 said:

    @castlemanic.3198 said:
    See above reasons why some people may not have the ability to do so, I don't get how you can be so apathetic to the needs of others. Also not everyone reads the forums, reddit or online guides, seem to have ignored that point, havent you?

    So people can come in the forums and ask for nerfs, but they can't read guides in the same thread?
    If it's about being lazy and impacting a game original vision because of it? Yes, totally apathetic.

    How do you make the jump that just because some people post on the forums means there absolutely is no one who doesn't read them?
    Please tell me the logic behind that.

    Also, laziness is not what we're talking about here, but of course you'd frame it in a matter that has nothing to do with the conversation simply to 'make your point more legitimate'.

    Yeah, a few GW1 fights seemed impossible to me at the beginning, now I would do them 5 years after without thinking too much about it... why? Cause I learned how they work, learned the mechanics and all.

    You missed the point entirely and didn't even quote me correctly since you quoted me quoting you.

    It is playable to all, in fact most players here, even among those who complain, managed to get the fight, we have thousands of gryphons already, and people talk about the end game everywhere. If it was elitist content like some of you seem to believe, that wouldn't be the case. The fact is, a minority only is complaining.

    How does a topic like this arise if it was playable to all? How does that logic work out? How does the fact that some people have griffons means everyone is capable of playing at the same level? You really are making some massively false leaps in logic.

    A bugged content is unplayable, broken gameplay resulting in RNG movement could be considered unplayable, in this case you can't say unplayable. Otherwise Dark Souls is unplayable, Mario Bros is unplayable, Tomb Raider is unplayable, and basically all games till this modern era of triple AAA interactive movies are unplayable.
    A solo experience doesn't mean it has to be facerolled. I don't know if that's a millenial concept but I've never seen that in any game.
    And again, if you can come on a forum and complain about difficulty, it's just as easy to look for help instead.

    How do we keep running in circles, did you miss the section where i specifically pointed out i said to some, as in some people, not every single person on the planet, finds it unplayable. Some, it's a word I have explicitly used, why do you keep pretending like i've made it seem no one on earth can play through this content?

    Its audience is certainly wider, but GW1 veterans are still there and deserve better than see absolutely ALL content being incredibly and frustratingly made easy to suit the needs of (a few) new people. Right now the only "end game content" is raids and some high level fractals, and that's it.
    I'm one of the player who prefer a difficult fight 1 time than 100 times farming the same easy instance to get the same reward. Two different audiences, but right now the "easy" audience clearly got the most content. This same audience is also nitpicking at raids to have them made easier, and meta (KotJ, Ires Serpent), it just never stops.

    It's laughable that you say "all" content being incredible easy and then break your own argument with examples where that isn't the case. I love the leaps in logic you make. Clearly, as you pointed out, not all content is easy, but you're hilariously misguided if you think that "a few new people" are all it is that prefers easier content. The objective fact is that a very large number of players prefer having easy, soloable content when it comes to the personal story. Like, of all things, the personal story is where your gripe is? I don't get it, from the very beginning, the devs have designed the game to be playable by a majority of people who prefer easier content, and then slowly expanded more difficult content, up to and including locking the most useful set of gear (legendary) behind game content that is impossible to the majority of the playerbase. The reality here is that people who prefer difficult content in this game are a much smaller number than those who prefer easier content, but everyone has some content to enjoy.

    What never stops is that people like you feel so entitled to your content that you don't want anyone else touching it. The utter contempt, disrespect and vitriol pointed at me and others who had the misfortune of suggesting difficulty levels for raids, as in you get to keep your hard content but others get to experience it at easier difficulties, really shows the entitlement that people feel over difficult content. You may not be like that, but you have certainly shown that you share some of that mentality.

    Again, please leave out the morale out of that, It's got nothing to do with empathy, I do not recognize struggling in a video game as a valid reason for making said game easier. It's a game, it's not real life. It's not the end of the world if you don't win a fight first try.

    But there is a legitimate morale in this, in that you apparently can't comprehend the idea that some people may find content legitimately too difficult to complete, that ALONE suggests a lack of empathy, along with much that you've said already. You're also talking in broad strokes, where this entire discussion is centered on a single boss fight in a personal story mission with an extremely simple nerf that makes the fight manageable but still teaches important mechanics. Why do you keep ignoring the suggestion that does everything you wish it to except for making it easier for people to finish the fight? Why is that such a difficult thing for you to address?

    If we take the following case: 50% wants the game easy, 50% wants it challenging. All the easy missions (a vast majority of this game) are impacting players who like it challenging, and all challenging missions are impacting those who want it easy.
    You are basically telling me that people who want it easy should always have the last word. That somehow, they have priority and we should all accept to have our game made super easy for them, even though this is already the majority of the content in the game.
    Well, I simply don't agree, and I'm pretty sure there's less than 50% who want it easy.

    Lol, way to oversimplify and entirely miss the points that i've made. We're talking about a single boss fight in the personal story, we're not talking about raids and factals and every piece of open world content. I have also demonstrated a solution that makes it easier to many but hits all the important points that fight is supposed to teach, you're acting like i'm suggesting the boss should be killed with a single auto attack. You can disagree, but you also have those numbers hilariously wrong, where the numers are, in actuality, skewed heavily towards players who prefer easy content. Just because they don't post on the forums doesn't mean they don't exist. You also have content tailored to your tastes, fractals and raids, but the majority of the game is designed for people who prefer easier content.

    The ONLY acceptable case would be to have a CM (hard mode) for these missions, like we had with Mordremoth. In absence of that, when you ask to make a fight easier even though you got it (and most people here), you are basically telling us we won't be allowed this challenge anymore, and you refuse to see it as an issue, because you don't see the value in appreciating a good fight.
    Same issue, only reversed. Only there's a lot more easy missions in the game.

    No, that is far from the only acceptable case. You seem to misunderstand the design intentions for the personal story, in that they are absolutely made to be easy for the vast majority of the playerbase to be able to finish. Let me quote you from earlier:

    If it's about being lazy and impacting a game original vision because of it? Yes, totally apathetic.

    Guess what the original vision of the entirety of the personal story, including everything in PoF, is?

    Soloable for everyone.

    Currently that is not the case.

    Struggling for boss fights is absolutely normal and should become a norm again. It's what makes people learn, make game feel that they last longer and give some fulfillment when you accomplish something.
    Even if you don't have this feeling of accomplishment, you will have learned some things and will do better next time.
    If you can't see the CC, then just range it, it's doable and work. You have a way of going through the fight.

    How, please tell me, how does extending the breakbars by a few seconds ruin any of that? How does extending the breakbars existence prevent any of that?

    You seem to be completely ignoring a suggestion that falls within your established guidelines for how the fight should be, instead attacking the very design intention of the developers for the personal story to be soloable.

    How does that make sense?

    Whataboutism is disingenuous at best. If you join a debate and provide little to no proof when the other side provides lots of evidence, you can't then declare yourself the winner of that debate. I won't engage with bad faith arguments.

  • Vanive.3804Vanive.3804 Member ✭✭
    edited October 3, 2017

    Yeah this fight as a thief is pissing me off. This is the first time in all the years (since pre-launch) I have played this game that I actually had to leave a quest for a breather. I can dodge all day, which builds, which weapons, but some how he zeroes in on me within seconds of getting his bar below 80% leaving me with no way to escape. Currently I'm looking for a way to get him stuck in the scenery so I can finish it. If that considered an exploit, so be it. This fight is obviously built for specific classes which may have an easier time with it. Most of the posts I have read where they stated it was "easy" aren't playing on a thief. You can't even access your inventory to get to your bank to grab different gear. If you go in with the wrong stuff, you just wasted 45min of your life.

    To those spewing their toxic BS about L2P, realize not every class is the same, not all classes are geared the same. Based on some of the help posts i have seen some of you folks post; you may have to exploit the game to get the quest completed. Regardless of what you think any developer would say this is a broken mechanic; I don't GAF if you agree or not. If you can not use a boost/buff, the help of others and need to break the game to finish what is considered solo content, then it is broken.

  • Sleel.8365Sleel.8365 Member
    edited October 3, 2017

    Ain't nothing hard about him. When he goes to use his health drain, dodge, evade, MOVE out of range of it. Hell, if he fails he breaks automatically. If a middle aged guy with creaky joints can do it, then you are just whining. I ain't hardcore, I didn't play the game for two years. I melee d the fight. All it takes is paying attn. Which apparently is to much to expect for some of you. This needs NO nerf.

  • Haishao.6851Haishao.6851 Member ✭✭✭

    @castlemanic.3198 said:

    Guess what the original vision of the entirety of the personal story, including everything in PoF, is?

    Soloable for everyone.

    Currently that is not the case.

    Nothing can be soloable by everyone. There's always some people at the bottom who find everything too hard.
    Ask someone to help you if you're so completely unable to.

  • Zaltys.7649Zaltys.7649 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 3, 2017

    @Haishao.6851 said:
    Ask someone to help you if you're so completely unable to.

    Did you not read the thread? Bringing in help only makes the battle harder, because everyone else gets turned into spirits. Which have useless abilities, but heal the eater.

  • castlemanic.3198castlemanic.3198 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Haishao.6851 said:
    Nothing can be soloable by everyone. There's always some people at the bottom who find everything too hard.
    Ask someone to help you if you're so completely unable to.

    First, they can make efforts to accommodate as many people as possible, currently they aren't doing that with this design iteration. I also love how you skipped analysing the suggestion and went straight into misinformed talking points.

    Second, as above, any friends you have join are useless spirits that can't help you in the souleater fight.

    Thirdly, I beat the fight on the first try and I have the mental capacity and empathy to realise many people won't be able to beat the boss at all as is and that needs to change.

    Whataboutism is disingenuous at best. If you join a debate and provide little to no proof when the other side provides lots of evidence, you can't then declare yourself the winner of that debate. I won't engage with bad faith arguments.

  • Deihnyx.6318Deihnyx.6318 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 3, 2017

    @castlemanic.3198 said:
    How do you make the jump that just because some people post on the forums means there absolutely is no one who doesn't read them?
    Please tell me the logic behind that.

    I said that the people coming here (on forums) to ask for nerf are perfectly able to read guides as well. If you're not willing to read and try getting better at a game, even when people have spent time explaining how you can win, I call that lazy. Feel free to find it illegitimate but I stand strong on that opinion.

    Yeah, a few GW1 fights seemed impossible to me at the beginning, now I would do them 5 years after without thinking too much about it... why? Cause I learned how they work, learned the mechanics and all.

    You missed the point entirely and didn't even quote me correctly since you quoted me quoting you.

    A wrong quote, definitely a strong argument. (sarcasm)
    I could have quoted the whole thing but it didn't make sense since you admitted yourself that this game had a more challenging content. Somehow you found a way to turn it against me, good job.

    How does a topic like this arise if it was playable to all? How does that logic work out? How does the fact that some people have griffons means everyone is capable of playing at the same level? You really are making some massively false leaps in logic.

    Same reason we get topics complaining about pretty much every aspect of the game. Some people have specific issues and are blaming the game before even considering the fact that they're doing something wrong.
    Most people got through it, so maybe, just MAYBE consider the problem comes from you BEFORE asking for nerfing, is that too much to ask?

    How do we keep running in circles, did you miss the section where i specifically pointed out i said to some, as in some people, not every single person on the planet, finds it unplayable. Some, it's a word I have explicitly used, why do you keep pretending like i've made it seem no one on earth can play through this content?

    What I keep saying is that a minority of people unable to do something doesn't mean it's game issue, nor that it should be nerfed. They look for help instead. You have the tendency of assuming things I haven't said.

    It's laughable that you say "all" content being incredible easy and then break your own argument with examples where that isn't the case. I love the leaps in logic you make. Clearly, as you pointed out, not all content is easy, but you're hilariously misguided if you think that "a few new people" are all it is that prefers easier content. The objective fact is that a very large number of players prefer having easy, soloable content when it comes to the personal story. Like, of all things, the personal story is where your gripe is? I don't get it, from the very beginning, the devs have designed the game to be playable by a majority of people who prefer easier content, and then slowly expanded more difficult content, up to and including locking the most useful set of gear (legendary) behind game content that is impossible to the majority of the playerbase. The reality here is that people who prefer difficult content in this game are a much smaller number than those who prefer easier content, but everyone has some content to enjoy.

    I said twice that not all content is easy in that quote. What are you talking about?
    I'm willing to admit a communication issue here (through "be made easy" shows it's not the case as of right now, but should you have it your way it would be all easy) but please, there's no need to add all that sarcasm to strengthen a point that isn't there in the first place.

    What never stops is that people like you feel so entitled to your content that you don't want anyone else touching it. The utter contempt, disrespect and vitriol pointed at me and others who had the misfortune of suggesting difficulty levels for raids, as in you get to keep your hard content but others get to experience it at easier difficulties, really shows the entitlement that people feel over difficult content. You may not be like that, but you have certainly shown that you share some of that mentality.

    Again, the whole L2P argument being turned into "disrespect". Talk about leaps in logic...
    Meanwhile there are players who made a discord channel for raid training. These people are worth respect and are actually doing something positive that helps casuals AND veteran raiders alike.
    I have a mentality of a gamer who finds reward in beating a challenging content, rather than farming the same stuff 100 times to get a shiny reward. For a long while it's what video games were about but somehow today it turned into something where casual gamers are king and everything must be done for them. Allow me, as a GW1 veteran, to be against that without being insulted.
    And talking about disrespect with the tone you've been using in this last post is uncalled for.

    But there is a legitimate morale in this, in that you apparently can't comprehend the idea that some people may find content legitimately too difficult to complete, that ALONE suggests a lack of empathy, along with much that you've said already. You're also talking in broad strokes, where this entire discussion is centered on a single boss fight in a personal story mission with an extremely simple nerf that makes the fight manageable but still teaches important mechanics. Why do you keep ignoring the suggestion that does everything you wish it to except for making it easier for people to finish the fight? Why is that such a difficult thing for you to address?

    You're defending a done battle. People had issues with the fight but went through it. For the few people who learned something, they'll be better at the game. And that alone shows it doesn't need to be addressed.
    The suggestion isn't the issue, the issue is that it's not critical to win the fights, there are other ways.
    Like okay, find me someone who is having issues, who followed the guides for his class and who gave up after an hour or two of giving it a fair try.
    Because all you're doing right now is telling me how horrible I am for not caring about "these players", but all we see in this thread are player who made it (hence why unplayable = BS)
    What I see is simply people who've had issues, which I personally consider normal for a boss. We disagree on that and there's not point trying to debate about that.

    Lol, way to oversimplify and entirely miss the points that i've made. We're talking about a single boss fight in the personal story, we're not talking about raids and factals and every piece of open world content. I have also demonstrated a solution that makes it easier to many but hits all the important points that fight is supposed to teach, you're acting like i'm suggesting the boss should be killed with a single auto attack. You can disagree, but you also have those numbers hilariously wrong, where the numers are, in actuality, skewed heavily towards players who prefer easy content. Just because they don't post on the forums doesn't mean they don't exist. You also have content tailored to your tastes, fractals and raids, but the majority of the game is designed for people who prefer easier content.

    I can't have missed a point you made since I made this example from scratch. We both deviated from "the single boss fight" at that point.
    Let me give you a counter suggestion: Don't nerf the fight, but allow for a training of basic mechanics that aren't gated behind a living season content. And then after, let's see how many people find that fight "unplayable".
    You also have no numbers, nor I have any, I just see the trend of Anet trying to make things more interesting, suggesting players want them.
    If you don't have numbers, don't make it an argument against me at the very least, I've tried to be fair and divide the community in two. I don't care if it's 40/60, or 60/40. It's not the point, the point is there's a lot of easy content already and we don't need to nerf that one (or the chef, or pick random thread asking for nerf)

    No, that is far from the only acceptable case. You seem to misunderstand the design intentions for the personal story, in that they are absolutely made to be easy for the vast majority of the playerbase to be able to finish. Let me quote you from earlier:

    If it's about being lazy and impacting a game original vision because of it? Yes, totally apathetic.

    Guess what the original vision of the entirety of the personal story, including everything in PoF, is?

    Soloable for everyone.

    Currently that is not the case.

    Yet we're talking about a design from Anet that you find too hard and need nerf. Also talking after a fight like Caudecus, which was decently challenging, and got nerfed too.
    You're free to assume they want easy content, I'm free to assume the opposite, especially after LS3.
    Hardly an argument.

    How, please tell me, how does extending the breakbars by a few seconds ruin any of that? How does extending the breakbars existence prevent any of that?

    You seem to be completely ignoring a suggestion that falls within your established guidelines for how the fight should be, instead attacking the very design intention of the developers for the personal story to be soloable.

    How does that make sense?

    As I said multiple time, I defend having some form of challenge in a game, and am very happy with new content being less casual, the root of the issue is that we don't agree on that.
    You defend your vision of the game, I defend mine. I do not believe in bringing down a game to the level of the most casual, and I do not accept to be called apathetic or any other rude word simply for enjoying another form of rewarding feeling.