Silent Scope 'fix'.

On the plus side, we can now actually enter Stealth reliably.

On the flip side, there seems to be a slight delay after landing from the dodge before the stealth kicks in.

We dodge, the dodge ends, stealth kicks in. All makes for one heck of a telegraph/signal.

Well, folks getting hit by DJ can hardly complain they didn't see it coming anymore!

I believe the delay is normal.

Other traits work the same. Like Trapper Respite.

ANet said they liked Stealth on the start of the Dodge because it gave less indication to where the Thief went but everyone complained.

This just shows that the players actually don't know how to balance better than developers.

Enjoy the telegraph!

@Conscript.3657 said:ANet said they liked Stealth on the start of the Dodge because it gave less indication to where the Thief went but everyone complained.

This just shows that the players actually don't know how to balance better than developers.

Enjoy the telegraph!

But on the order hand, why changing kneel mechanic ? Why ? Is there a Dev who can explain why ?

@"Conscript.3657" said:ANet said they liked Stealth on the start of the Dodge because it gave less indication to where the Thief went but everyone complained.

This just shows that the players actually don't know how to balance better than developers.

Enjoy the telegraph!

No. We asked to get a short anti-Revealed protection just in case a projectile didn't hit before going into stealth to avoid getting insta-Revealed after dodging. As usual, they don't understand what that meant.

A simple, "You cannot be Revealed for 1s after going in stealth. This falls off if you attack." would have sufficed.

IIRC, they stated something along the lines of maybe not being able to apply a buff of sorts when the dodge provided stealth at start of dodge to prevent the reveal, so the other option was putting it at the end of the dodge. I can't exactly remember. I would also have preferred the stealth at start of dodge but with something that prevented a reveal.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@"Conscript.3657" said:ANet said they liked Stealth on the start of the Dodge because it gave less indication to where the Thief went but everyone complained.

This just shows that the players actually don't know how to balance better than developers.

Enjoy the telegraph!

the issue with that is, it would probably be tied to the dodgeroll so you could abuse it to shoot and not get revealed, you know a new ghost thief now with extra power damage!

@"SoulSin.5682" said:I believe the delay is normal.

Other traits work the same. Like Trapper Respite.

I disagree. The only reason Trapper Respite has a delay is because there's a 1 second arm time.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Needle_Trap See version history.

@"DemonSeed.3528" said:IIRC, they stated something along the lines of maybe not being able to apply a buff of sorts when the dodge provided stealth at start of dodge to prevent the reveal, so the other option was putting it at the end of the dodge. I can't exactly remember. I would also have preferred the stealth at start of dodge but with something that prevented a reveal.

Yeah, its not ideal but its a fix.

• they decide on their design intent. Ok, so far so good.

• they failed to spend the minute or two testing the talent before implementation. (And let's be clear, the talent didn't work not due to some cryptic bug but of a fairly obvious interaction between mechanical elements.)

• they then stated that they couldn't fix the talent in a way that stuck to their original design intent. (''We chose to go a different route since it was more difficult to determine what kind of impact this would have across the whole game.") Edit: So, technically they could fix it but practically they couldn't. Again a lack of investment in proper testing.

  • they 'fix' it in a way that goes against their initial design intent (stealth before dodging to be sneaking/tricky).

ON THE PLUS SIDE - we now have a reliable way to get into stealth.

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@"Conscript.3657" said:ANet said they liked Stealth on the start of the Dodge because it gave less indication to where the Thief went but everyone complained.

This just shows that the players actually don't know how to balance better than developers.

Enjoy the telegraph!

I disagree. If an anti-Revealed buff with a duration proportionate to the amount of time it takes for the bullet to hit the target at maximum range (e.g. 1s duration) exists, there is no way to abuse that since the buff will fall off if they attack after stealth.

Examples:Shoot then dodge = no Revealed for the durationDodge then Shoot = RevealedShoot then dodge then shoot = Revealed after 2nd shot hitDodge then shoot then dodge = Revealed, ICD kicks in after first Dodge

It's really not that complicated. This is one reason I dislike stealth-on-dodge.

I thought it'd be relatively easy to fix in-flight projectiles instantly breaking stealth. So if reveal protection cant be put in easy? why not just make the projectile hit first (regardless of how far it is) when you start your roll and keep the previous behaviour which feels more responsive.

Anyway I have another suggestion regarding the roll. What if instead of the standard dodge roll when kneeled you perform a short variable distance shadow step which has evade (similar to mirage cloak). This allows you to gain stealth without dodge rolling too far (i.e. off a ledge) and more accurately avoid template attacks without unkneeling. Visually speaking it could leave a smokey trail behind where you vanished. This would make it even harder to guess where the thief is too in PvP after relocating while making it easier to play in PvE.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@"Conscript.3657" said:ANet said they liked Stealth on the start of the Dodge because it gave less indication to where the Thief went but everyone complained.

This just shows that the players actually don't know how to balance better than developers.

Enjoy the telegraph!

what kind of ICD? i mean silent scope has only an ICD while standing and even that you can reset by a short kneel.what i am worried about is that you might stack stealth, then shoot and dodge to avoid being revealed while still dealing damage.

IMO the fact that stealth on dodge is uninterruptable frequent stealth access outshines for me all the cons, i mean thats super strong. before the rework i had to be careful while on rifle as apart from blinding powder utility all my stealth access was interruptable : mark, kneel, shadowmeld, blackpower +leap. now i can play very aggressive, keep shooting and dodge when i get pressured , before i had to vanish before i got my opponents attention.

so far with the patch out i dont feel my opponents actually utilize knowing the direction i dodge. adding a particle effect to silent scope was also a great change as now my opponents get a chance to spot me when i decide to permastealth with mainly silent scope + hidden thief, as an opponent you can see a little black animation were the thief stealthed now. no animation permastealth was a little too strong to avoid being found in keeps/towers in WvW.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@"Conscript.3657" said:ANet said they liked Stealth on the start of the Dodge because it gave less indication to where the Thief went but everyone complained.

This just shows that the players actually don't know how to balance better than developers.

Enjoy the telegraph!

It's not they didn't understand, they said they were blatantly not doing that. It was basically a "We would only make a change like that if it applied to ALL stealth skills on all classes, and we aren't prepared to make that change from a balance perspective." It was never going to happen. Stealth at the end is fine. You don't have to be kneeling for the stealth to happen the first time, so there should be no reason this tells them where you're going.

Personally while I have not tested extensively I think I prefer stealth after dodge as it is now. I also think the out of combat stealth on dodge a plus. What i have to get used to is when on my DE rifle DON't dodge to build swiftness as I do on my DE s/d when crossing the map. :)

Some suggested that silent scope be available to all weapon sets. I think this would be OP given the amount of endurance gain one can get in an acro s/x build. The Combination of stealths and ports would be too much. I suspect even now more DE rifle builds will use the orrian truffle and meat stew if in wvw or pve.

This feels waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better than stealth at the beginning of the dodge. Personally I don't think it should have been allowed to activate out of combat, but it's not really game-breaking.

It really wasn't hard to not get revealed beforehand. Simply turn off auto attack for rifle and you'll likely only land the hits you intend to.

That said, I have played around with the new stealth mechanic last night. I dig it. It has a telegraph, but I am ok with that. It feels it "flows" much better in combat. I am not as confused when I enter stealth or see an immune.

Funny, I was attacked by a thief that didn't unstealth until her attack completed...not the way I understand the mechanic should work.

@Turk.5460 said:This feels waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better than stealth at the beginning of the dodge. Personally I don't think it should have been allowed to activate out of combat, but it's not really game-breaking.

Oh yes, regardless of how we got here, having such ready access to stealth is very very nice.

@Eypheha.5831 said:Funny, I was attacked by a thief that didn't unstealth until her attack completed...not the way I understand the mechanic should work, but hey, It's Anet and their Darling. Who cares, eventually everyone will run a thief because it's the only class Anet hasn't ground down to nothing.

I've also fired DJ while seemingly not in stealth, after the dodge. No idea what someone else sees..

@eldrjth.7384 said:Anyway I have another suggestion regarding the roll. What if instead of the standard dodge roll when kneeled you perform a short variable distance shadow step which has evade (similar to mirage cloak). This allows you to gain stealth without dodge rolling too far (i.e. off a ledge) and more accurately avoid template attacks without unkneeling. Visually speaking it could leave a smokey trail behind where you vanished. This would make it even harder to guess where the thief is too in PvP after relocating while making it easier to play in PvE.

I suggested something similar before, except more like a lean in a shooter to peek around corners, just that it would have you lean a bit so you wouldn't lose your foot print, but that would only happen if you're already Kneeling while doge to stealth could still be a thing while standing for people who like daredevil rifle. This new DE is really just stupid in general now though, from dodging to stealth to the trait selection dumbing it all down for both single target and group builds, getting kind of bored with the game in general lately, didn't expect this new silent scope to have such an impact.

@kash.9213 said:

@eldrjth.7384 said:Anyway I have another suggestion regarding the roll. What if instead of the standard dodge roll when kneeled you perform a short variable distance shadow step which has evade (similar to mirage cloak). This allows you to gain stealth without dodge rolling too far (i.e. off a ledge) and more accurately avoid template attacks without unkneeling. Visually speaking it could leave a smokey trail behind where you vanished. This would make it even harder to guess where the thief is too in PvP after relocating while making it easier to play in PvE.

On the plus side: We can juggle between Silent Scope and our other Stealth abilities for a good 10-15+ seconds of stealth on demand. Of course, the longer we extend said stealth the less options we have since we're sacrificing heals, utility and Elites in order to do so.

Still, its a gradient -- a little stealth push and we pop out with a more options. A longer stealth push and we pop out with less.

For me, this has added a level or risk/reward to the DE, and a layer of guerilla tactics/play.

Very enjoyable.

@Scud.5067 said:

@kash.9213 said:

@eldrjth.7384 said:Anyway I have another suggestion regarding the roll. What if instead of the standard dodge roll when kneeled you perform a short variable distance shadow step which has evade (similar to mirage cloak). This allows you to gain stealth without dodge rolling too far (i.e. off a ledge) and more accurately avoid template attacks without unkneeling. Visually speaking it could leave a smokey trail behind where you vanished. This would make it even harder to guess where the thief is too in PvP after relocating while making it easier to play in PvE.

It is an upside that some people like the flow and sequence of the new Silent Scope, it's just frustrating that it changed it so fundamentally for people who enjoyed the sniper or deadeye game play to now go back to daredevil game play. I wouldn't even mind using endurance, as head scratching as that aspect is, as long as I didn't lose my spot while in kneel mode. It's weird to be talking about a fix for a fix for something that didn't really need fixing, but now needs a fix because of the unneeded fix.

@kash.9213 said:

@Scud.5067 said:

@kash.9213 said:

@eldrjth.7384 said:Anyway I have another suggestion regarding the roll. What if instead of the standard dodge roll when kneeled you perform a short variable distance shadow step which has evade (similar to mirage cloak). This allows you to gain stealth without dodge rolling too far (i.e. off a ledge) and more accurately avoid template attacks without unkneeling. Visually speaking it could leave a smokey trail behind where you vanished. This would make it even harder to guess where the thief is too in PvP after relocating while making it easier to play in PvE.

I guess it's down to how folks define 'sniper' gameplay. I've played a lot of PS2, with a reputable group on a prime server, serving as their sniper/counter sniper. In said game, there was a percentage of the playerbase who enjoyed camping afar, out of sight, and plinking off the occasional shot. It netted kills but it barely impacted play.

On the flip side there were folks playing as I did, counter sniping and close quarter sniping. Marksman? play some might call it - striking key targets, decisively, from afar but close enough to put constant pressure on enemy players.

Before, DE felt more like the former example - sneak, stalk, pop out and kill. Which, while each to their own, is a fairly undynamic playstyle, and one that offered few active counters. At the very least, it was not the kinda play that would be endorsed by folks following the little academic/professional texts regarding quality game design.

Now, we stalk less but plink more. Or rather, I find we're more up close and personal, using stealth options and Malice burst to pressure high value targets. I totally understand why folks who preferred a more stalker style of play would have a grudge against the shift in playstyle focus. Still, what we have now is certainly more dynamic and places the DE in more danger, which potentially rewards our enemies as much as the skilled DE player.

@Sojourner.4621 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@"Conscript.3657" said:ANet said they liked Stealth on the start of the Dodge because it gave less indication to where the Thief went but everyone complained.

This just shows that the players actually don't know how to balance better than developers.

Enjoy the telegraph!

Just like I said, they didn't understand it. Why in the world would they even consider applying it to all stealth in all classes when the functionality is tied to a single trait? No one is asking them to change the stealth mechanic.

It's like asking them to change a flat tire and they refuse to do it unless they change all four tires.

But as always, I've made my complaints and either I will live with it or play another profession. There are other changes outside the Rifle build that I like (e.g. Premed + M7) , but I will not pretend that Rifle is suddenly a godsend after these changes.

@Scud.5067 said:

@kash.9213 said:

@Scud.5067 said:

@kash.9213 said:

@eldrjth.7384 said:Anyway I have another suggestion regarding the roll. What if instead of the standard dodge roll when kneeled you perform a short variable distance shadow step which has evade (similar to mirage cloak). This allows you to gain stealth without dodge rolling too far (i.e. off a ledge) and more accurately avoid template attacks without unkneeling. Visually speaking it could leave a smokey trail behind where you vanished. This would make it even harder to guess where the thief is too in PvP after relocating while making it easier to play in PvE.

It's not so much stalker style as control and options. What we have now isn't more dynamic, I have to disagree with that, from actual game play to build. Before, I could work to get the right angle that will give line of site in a large fight in say SMC, that didn't take long stretches of stalking and set up, it just meant I had control of my positioning to set up the shot and to take the shot and I could adjust. Now, we have to pump it all out in melee range with extra cc and hope there's no more than maybe three other people around to body block and hope it's out in the open while we flip from our spot.

It's fine if people enjoy this new version of silent scope and malice building, but why not play daredevil which is actually designed well? Or, allow us to hold the position while in Kneel and keep it how it is now while not in in Kneel? The rest of DE would still need work since it's pretty much trash for our pve people but at least that would keep the elite Deadeye and not something else.