Think we could work on getting rid of resource mechanics and create "stances" instead?

I have a feeling players would welcome a change that gets rid of resource generating and gating mechanics, that are forced on only certain professions and specializations, and create "stances" in their place. Think we can consider this?

Can you elaborate? How would that improve gameplay in your opinion?

@"Phosphorite.6192" said:Can you elaborate? How would that improve gameplay in your opinion?

So we get rid of the resource mechanics to access stuff like Druid Celestial Avatar, Necro Shroud, Warrior Burst, Holosmith Photon Forge... and make these "forms" into combat "stances" the player can use without having to manage resources to activate and use. Put some timers on reentering the "stance" like we have with weapon swaps while in combat. Balance out some numbers so a player can stay in the combat "stance" if they choose. Stuff like that.

So making those things just like any other skill with a cooldown? Sounds a lot less interesting to me. Personally, I enjoy variants in gameplay.

@Phosphorite.6192 said:So making those things just like any other skill with a cooldown? Sounds a lot less interesting to me. Personally, I enjoy variants in gameplay.

That's great. I, however, enjoy just playing the game, not resource gate, and like the idea of more balance between professions in wvw. Profession skills are varied enough to appease my need for variants in gameplay.

For that to work, those skills would have to be severely nerfed and/or the cooldowns be immense... I'd rather have an option where you can control, to a degree, when you get to engage those mechanics, instead of having to wait for an arbitrary cooldown, or have them nerfed to uselessness.

Regardless of the mode played it, the change you propose would make all those professions that use these kinds of skills, feel even more the same than before. I think it's good that the classes stand out as they do and I don't mind the resources at all. The time it takes to build up said resource already is a kind of cooldown, just one that is more engaging than simply waiting for being able to use it again.

@Phosphorite.6192 said:Regardless of the mode played it, the change you propose would make all those professions that use these kinds of skills, feel even more the same than before. I think it's good that the classes stand out as they do and I don't mind the resources at all. The time it takes to build up said resource already is a kind of cooldown, just one that is more engaging than simply waiting for being able to use it again.

So you feel resource and gating mechanics, on select professions or elites, are what truly defines each profession or elite and makes the experience of playing said professions or elites an enjoyable gameplay experience?

Not all but for some of these, yes they are defining features. The Astral force of the druid was specifically implemented for the Celestial Avatar. There are traits that synergize with these resources. All of these things give the class/specs more flavor and make them, imho, more interesting than a simple cooldown that would make these things just another skill you blow when it's ready.

@Phosphorite.6192 said:Not all but for some of these, yes they are defining features. The Astral force of the druid was specifically implemented for the Celestial Avatar. There are traits that synergize with these resources. All of these things give the class/specs more flavor and make them, imho, more interesting than a simple cooldown that would make these things just another skill you blow when it's ready.

Have you ever tried roaming around on any necro build in wvw? Have you ever roamed with a small team in heal support Druid and ever been locked out of CA skills when your team is getting blasted for a lot of damage?

I mean, if we are looking at this from a stand at pve boss feet and dodge the scripted and telegraph attacks, then we don’t worry much. However, WvW and SPvP are different beasts.

Based off of your thoughts, we could just give each profession and elite resource gated profession mechanics, as opposed to just some of them. We could, in theory, rework all Mesmer builds to have shatter skills require resources to access, and deduct X amount of resources for each shatter. We could also put in a diminishing timer on shatter skills, so players need to use them before the timer runs out. I’m sure we could figure a great formula so each profession can be on more equal “footing” so to speak.

To roaming with a necro in wvw, yes I have. But it was a condi minion master build so I don't see much of a problem. I'm mostly a PvE player though, I can't say anything about PvP.

Thieves are resource-gated too, not just for a specific skill, but for all of their weapon skills. Revenant is too. Pretty much every class has some sort of resource and cooldowns are pretty much "time-gating" too. I don't see the difference. Just more flavor.

@"Phosphorite.6192" said:To roaming with a necro in wvw, yes I have. But it was a condi minion master build so I don't see much of a problem. I'm mostly a PvE player though, I can't say anything about PvP.

Thieves are resource-gated too, not just for a specific skill, but for all of their weapon skills. Revenant is too. Pretty much every class has some sort of resource and cooldowns are pretty much "time-gating" too. I don't see the difference. Just more flavor.

Initiative on thief is a naturally regenerating resource that allows the thief to spam multiple weapon skills. Their resource design is actually a boon, and only applied to weapons. Rev is a different beast, and over done with cooldown combined with energy mechanics. Both of those are still different than some other designs. You can't make a comparison to thief initiative to necro lifeforce and shroud mechanics.

What you call "flavor" is part of the reason for the unbalanced design of classes. Player's who "mostly pve" don't think about the extreme imbalances, because most stuff works in pve, because most stuff was built for pve. If we stick to your "flavor" route, then we could make sure each profession needs to build resources like a necro or druid spec to use certain functions, and I highly doubt that more in the community would call it "flavor". With the exception of raids, players can play half asleep in pve, but that's not the case for competitive play such as wvw and spvp. That's my angle.

There are enough differences between profession skills and weapons, and resource mechanics have zero to do with it.

@"Swagger.1459" said:I have a feeling players would welcome a change that gets rid of resource generating and gating mechanics, that are forced on only certain professions and specializations, and create "stances" in their place. Think we can consider this?

No.

There's already a lot of professions that get rewarded a lot even without using those resources. Mesmer can do quite a lot of damage/support without shattering clones, warrior practically has adrenaline all the time and with elite spec you dont even have to bother with higher tier bursts, necro gets life force from everything that dies around it without even doing anything, thief regenerates initiative both passively and with certain traits/skills. Holo can regulate heat both in and out of combat. Druid might be a bit lackluster for wvw for example, but it would be unkillable otherwise (it's already quite tanky). FB has high cooldowns on tomes, but all (or 2 at least) have quite easy way of reducing their cooldowns through traits.

Rev and ele are quite balanced with attunement/legend cooldowns, but thats also why they are the weakest links for pvp/roaming, which really makes you think whats up with other classes' resources.

Stances are an important thing in combat archetypes like what Bless Online uses. Suffice to say it's not a successful or engaging thing to implement for the sake of oversimplification.

Yes that's a naw from me dawg

Definitely whatever downvote is here. Resource management done right allows you weight options to maximize expenditures for a given situation. Its the cases of overbearing resource costs (like on Rev) which force you to make too narrow decisions, when needing a lot of them, that this becomes a problem. Druid's problem is how CE is generated and how CA itself is purely time based rather then expenditure based; this combination forces it to dump skills whenever it goes into CA, regardless of how much you actually need for a situation. Thief got weird because has too much initiate in practice, but then completely shuts itself down once it runs out..... its a lopsided set up, because the cost distribution isn't weighted in the areas that you'd think. Its spike attacks are insanely cheap, with all the big initiative costs going to skills that setup or disengage. Daredevil uses this a lot better with the Staff being both utility and attack, and then moving some of the stronger attacks into utilities with traditional cool down.

then you look at stances on Soul Beast.... and its just..... not that interesting or flexiable beyond the ability to stack them enmass.

@"Swagger.1459" said:I have a feeling players would welcome a change that gets rid of resource generating and gating mechanics, that are forced on only certain professions and specializations, and create "stances" in their place. Think we can consider this?

As someone who Mains necromancer, I feel that the fact that Arena net didn't implement Energy and Adrenaline mechanics they had in GW1 was a massive mistake. Scourge is the most rewarding spec for me to play because of how it uses life force. So no, I can't agree with this, not in the slightest. Energy mechanics make these skills more thought provoking and interesting.

@Swagger.1459 said:

@Phosphorite.6192 said:So making those things just like any other skill with a cooldown? Sounds a lot less interesting to me. Personally, I enjoy variants in gameplay.

I prefer things the way they are. I find it hard to call such mechanics a gate. If I don't want to resource manage then I pick one of my toons that doesn't have to do that. I think the strength of the game is the fact that it's open to different playstyles. There's no sane reason why ALL the professions need to be on the same mechanic and that same mechanic be stances. Downplaying flavor and claiming it creates an imbalance in modes such as WvW is not a compelling argument. I play WvW mostly and I'm not convinced by your argument that resource management creates an imbalance there ( I also think your backhanded slight against PvE players isn't really necessary to make a point but that's me). There are numerous reasons that imbalances exist and I see little evidence that would suggest that switching to stances suddenly fixes those problems.

However, the biggest thing you haven't considered is that it would be a nightmare to implement. You're pretty much suggesting that players relearn their professions because you don't like something. These are the kind of things a game considers in its design phase. Not 5 or 6 years into the life of the game. There is no material benefit for what you suggest aside from you not liking managing your resources.

Frankly, some of us actually enjoy resource management (managing Photon Forge is fun and I enjoy the challenge of getting the most out of the time you're in Forge mode before you drop out or burn) and some of us who have played WvW and PvP really don't see it as a problem, despite your assertion that players would welcome such a change.

@Dace.8173 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@Phosphorite.6192 said:So making those things just like any other skill with a cooldown? Sounds a lot less interesting to me. Personally, I enjoy variants in gameplay.

So you’re saying that Druid and Shroud are not gated by resource?

Why should a player play something else because they don’t like the mechanics of the profession? Someone could love playing a mage type Elementalist in games, but hate the design. So your answer of “play something else” doesn’t really cut it.

So you’re aguing that the difference in 9 unique professions, with unique weapon skills across those professions, with unique slot skills and traits... are all basically the same, but what truly defines their “varied playstyle” is the resources on only some of the different professions?

The “sane reason” is called a simple step toward balancing.

Someone’s angle was “mostly pve”, as stated. My angle is mostly competitive play vs other players. There is a huge difference.

Being “5 or 6 years into the lifecycle” is meaningless. Don’t act as if change isn’t possible. Games that have been around just as long, or longer, have made various changes from their original launch state. That’s a weak argument.

@Swagger.1459 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@Phosphorite.6192 said:So making those things just like any other skill with a cooldown? Sounds a lot less interesting to me. Personally, I enjoy variants in gameplay.

I would have to agree with them and add to what they said:

I would absolutely say that 40+ skills per class is not what makes them unique. Three resource management is literally the profession unique mechanic that literally identifies how each class plays

Wirh that, each class becomes homogenized. Warriors simply have another skill to use. Revs just get nothing. Necros get +5 skills. Mesmers just have +5 skills (if u include cs). Everything looses its meaning.

You seem to believe druid is grated by the resource, yet i would argue the 15s cool down is what you're actually gated by which is seemingly what youre advocating for? . Sorry but of your not generating full ca before the cd its a l2p issue, not a resource issue. Yes. I mean for pvp.

You are also under the impression this will somehow bring better balance? You realize that your shroud necro skills are as powerful as they are because of the fact that they are gated by a resource? If this was implemented your skills would end up nerfed and you would further complain.

Think about this actually critically. What happens to warrior skills if there's only a cool down? Did you think about why specifically the spellbreaker only gets 2 bars instead of 3? That's a balance decision. With only a cool down that makes burst skills on spellbreaker equally damaging as berserker, while also getting full counter abd the utility of the spellbreakers kit. This inherently makes the spellbreaker better in all scenarios and actually harder to balance in the long run

Take a look at mesmers. Ppl complain they're already over powered. Now imagine they don't even have to generate clones to get the full power of a shatter or ambush even?

See where this is going?

Face value of this looks great from a bias point of view. Now actually think about it critically from every angle and realize the ramifications.

Edit there's probably of spelling errors. I blame my phone. I'm sorry.

@"Swagger.1459" said:I have a feeling players would welcome a change that gets rid of resource generating and gating mechanics, that are forced on only certain professions and specializations, and create "stances" in their place. Think we can consider this?

From what I understand, this would be a huge change which in some cases would tear apart the core mechanics of a class or elite spec. I mean, I can't even imagine currently what would happen to Rev.With all due respect, the idea is both massively game-changing and also rather shallow and vague.In doing this, devs would be ripping apart established classes and functionality to rebuild it into something that may or may not work and currently sounds a bit more bland.

@MarshallLaw.9260 said:

@"Swagger.1459" said:I have a feeling players would welcome a change that gets rid of resource generating and gating mechanics, that are forced on only certain professions and specializations, and create "stances" in their place. Think we can consider this?

Not to mention reapers sitting in shroud, druids sitting in CA, holos sitting in PF. The amount of balance work required to make this idea not awful is ridiculous.

@Ertrak.9506 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@Phosphorite.6192 said:So making those things just like any other skill with a cooldown? Sounds a lot less interesting to me. Personally, I enjoy variants in gameplay.

Are you joking? If you think, for example, that astral force defines playing a heal support role... that is pretty irrational. So if we were to remove astral force and make CA a stance, you see zero difference between Druid and a daredevil? You see zero difference between a damage spec vs a heal support spec??? What?

Later I’ll post a game that had 10x more build diversity and playable roles than gw2 will ever have... That didn’t have gating resources like gw2 has on certain professions... Combat was also 10x more balanced and almost every class spec was viable in pvp, unlike gw2... Who is currently in the process of, 6 years later, starting to talk about adding in more “high level build diversity”.

Sorry, but gw2 has some of the poorest pvp and wvw balance designs out of many mmos. This game was made for pve. MO himself stated long ago, in the wvw section, that the team was “looking for balance wins that won’t screw over pve”... And raids are the primary consideration when new elites are designed...

This game has struggled with balance and professions development since launch, and you may think that intentionally unbalanced mechanics are some super designs for mmos, but the failed esports dream should be an indication of how subpar things are for competitive gameplay.

And no, I don’t want to be fiddling with life force when roaming, especially when you have stuff like 3 seconds 24k Mesmer bursts from stealth on my full trailblazer necro... The devs created unnecessary imbalances that ruin what good elements they created with combat and professions...

I said nothing about Mesmer not needing to generate clones to get the benefits of shatter... You’re not reading things correctly...

@Swagger.1459 said:

@Ertrak.9506 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@Phosphorite.6192 said:So making those things just like any other skill with a cooldown? Sounds a lot less interesting to me. Personally, I enjoy variants in gameplay.

Right. Since you don't seem to understand the difference between playstyle and fulfilling a role...

The druid is defined by its astral force as a playstyle in which it has to build a resource, then dump it all for gain. That defines it as a druid. That defines the strategies and tactics you use with that spec

It's CA skills and traits define are what define it as a healer/ buffer instead of a damage spec. I dont understand how this concept is hard to grasp.

You specifically stated an example where you said you had to sit and watch your allies take damage because you were gated out of CA form. That is a player skill problem. I'm sorry. Get better.

Yes this game has struggled with balance but homogenization will not fix that. Rs3 being a great example of a game that homogenized its combat (due to years of pvp complaints) , years into its life span, and ended up alienating over 50%of its player base (dwindling further everyday).

You didn't address the spellbreaker example.

I brought up mesmers because its the same principle. Clones are a mesmers resource they have to micro manage. Its the same concept for necros. You have to micro manage your resource because how that class plays.

What you want is a new elite spec for necro that completely changes the profession mechanic. That's not, in and of itself, 100% unreasonable. That was part of the design intent of new elite specs.

But to want all professions to get rid of resource management just because you specifically do not like it however, is unreasonable when it won't actually solve any of the problems you think it will.