Think we could work on getting rid of resource mechanics and create "stances" instead? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Think we could work on getting rid of resource mechanics and create "stances" instead?

Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

I have a feeling players would welcome a change that gets rid of resource generating and gating mechanics, that are forced on only certain professions and specializations, and create "stances" in their place. Think we can consider this?

Comments

  • Phosphorite.6192Phosphorite.6192 Member ✭✭✭

    Can you elaborate? How would that improve gameplay in your opinion?

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 15, 2018

    @Phosphorite.6192 said:
    Can you elaborate? How would that improve gameplay in your opinion?

    So we get rid of the resource mechanics to access stuff like Druid Celestial Avatar, Necro Shroud, Warrior Burst, Holosmith Photon Forge... and make these "forms" into combat "stances" the player can use without having to manage resources to activate and use. Put some timers on reentering the "stance" like we have with weapon swaps while in combat. Balance out some numbers so a player can stay in the combat "stance" if they choose. Stuff like that.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Phosphorite.6192 said:
    So making those things just like any other skill with a cooldown? Sounds a lot less interesting to me. Personally, I enjoy variants in gameplay.

    That's great. I, however, enjoy just playing the game, not resource gate, and like the idea of more balance between professions in wvw. Profession skills are varied enough to appease my need for variants in gameplay.

  • ReaverKane.7598ReaverKane.7598 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 15, 2018

    For that to work, those skills would have to be severely nerfed and/or the cooldowns be immense... I'd rather have an option where you can control, to a degree, when you get to engage those mechanics, instead of having to wait for an arbitrary cooldown, or have them nerfed to uselessness.

  • Phosphorite.6192Phosphorite.6192 Member ✭✭✭

    Regardless of the mode played it, the change you propose would make all those professions that use these kinds of skills, feel even more the same than before. I think it's good that the classes stand out as they do and I don't mind the resources at all. The time it takes to build up said resource already is a kind of cooldown, just one that is more engaging than simply waiting for being able to use it again.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Phosphorite.6192 said:
    Regardless of the mode played it, the change you propose would make all those professions that use these kinds of skills, feel even more the same than before. I think it's good that the classes stand out as they do and I don't mind the resources at all. The time it takes to build up said resource already is a kind of cooldown, just one that is more engaging than simply waiting for being able to use it again.

    So you feel resource and gating mechanics, on select professions or elites, are what truly defines each profession or elite and makes the experience of playing said professions or elites an enjoyable gameplay experience?

  • Phosphorite.6192Phosphorite.6192 Member ✭✭✭

    Not all but for some of these, yes they are defining features. The Astral force of the druid was specifically implemented for the Celestial Avatar. There are traits that synergize with these resources. All of these things give the class/specs more flavor and make them, imho, more interesting than a simple cooldown that would make these things just another skill you blow when it's ready.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Phosphorite.6192 said:
    Not all but for some of these, yes they are defining features. The Astral force of the druid was specifically implemented for the Celestial Avatar. There are traits that synergize with these resources. All of these things give the class/specs more flavor and make them, imho, more interesting than a simple cooldown that would make these things just another skill you blow when it's ready.

    Have you ever tried roaming around on any necro build in wvw? Have you ever roamed with a small team in heal support Druid and ever been locked out of CA skills when your team is getting blasted for a lot of damage?

    I mean, if we are looking at this from a stand at pve boss feet and dodge the scripted and telegraph attacks, then we don’t worry much. However, WvW and SPvP are different beasts.

    Based off of your thoughts, we could just give each profession and elite resource gated profession mechanics, as opposed to just some of them. We could, in theory, rework all Mesmer builds to have shatter skills require resources to access, and deduct X amount of resources for each shatter. We could also put in a diminishing timer on shatter skills, so players need to use them before the timer runs out. I’m sure we could figure a great formula so each profession can be on more equal “footing” so to speak.

  • Phosphorite.6192Phosphorite.6192 Member ✭✭✭

    To roaming with a necro in wvw, yes I have. But it was a condi minion master build so I don't see much of a problem. I'm mostly a PvE player though, I can't say anything about PvP.

    Thieves are resource-gated too, not just for a specific skill, but for all of their weapon skills. Revenant is too. Pretty much every class has some sort of resource and cooldowns are pretty much "time-gating" too. I don't see the difference. Just more flavor.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Phosphorite.6192 said:
    To roaming with a necro in wvw, yes I have. But it was a condi minion master build so I don't see much of a problem. I'm mostly a PvE player though, I can't say anything about PvP.

    Thieves are resource-gated too, not just for a specific skill, but for all of their weapon skills. Revenant is too. Pretty much every class has some sort of resource and cooldowns are pretty much "time-gating" too. I don't see the difference. Just more flavor.

    Initiative on thief is a naturally regenerating resource that allows the thief to spam multiple weapon skills. Their resource design is actually a boon, and only applied to weapons. Rev is a different beast, and over done with cooldown combined with energy mechanics. Both of those are still different than some other designs. You can't make a comparison to thief initiative to necro lifeforce and shroud mechanics.

    What you call "flavor" is part of the reason for the unbalanced design of classes. Player's who "mostly pve" don't think about the extreme imbalances, because most stuff works in pve, because most stuff was built for pve. If we stick to your "flavor" route, then we could make sure each profession needs to build resources like a necro or druid spec to use certain functions, and I highly doubt that more in the community would call it "flavor". With the exception of raids, players can play half asleep in pve, but that's not the case for competitive play such as wvw and spvp. That's my angle.

    There are enough differences between profession skills and weapons, and resource mechanics have zero to do with it.

  • TheAgedGnome.7520TheAgedGnome.7520 Member ✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    I have a feeling players would welcome a change that gets rid of resource generating and gating mechanics, that are forced on only certain professions and specializations, and create "stances" in their place. Think we can consider this?

    No.

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    There's already a lot of professions that get rewarded a lot even without using those resources. Mesmer can do quite a lot of damage/support without shattering clones, warrior practically has adrenaline all the time and with elite spec you dont even have to bother with higher tier bursts, necro gets life force from everything that dies around it without even doing anything, thief regenerates initiative both passively and with certain traits/skills. Holo can regulate heat both in and out of combat. Druid might be a bit lackluster for wvw for example, but it would be unkillable otherwise (it's already quite tanky). FB has high cooldowns on tomes, but all (or 2 at least) have quite easy way of reducing their cooldowns through traits.

    Rev and ele are quite balanced with attunement/legend cooldowns, but thats also why they are the weakest links for pvp/roaming, which really makes you think whats up with other classes' resources.

  • Lunateric.3708Lunateric.3708 Member ✭✭✭

    Stances are an important thing in combat archetypes like what Bless Online uses. Suffice to say it's not a successful or engaging thing to implement for the sake of oversimplification.

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Yes that's a naw from me dawg

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • starlinvf.1358starlinvf.1358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Definitely whatever downvote is here. Resource management done right allows you weight options to maximize expenditures for a given situation. Its the cases of overbearing resource costs (like on Rev) which force you to make too narrow decisions, when needing a lot of them, that this becomes a problem. Druid's problem is how CE is generated and how CA itself is purely time based rather then expenditure based; this combination forces it to dump skills whenever it goes into CA, regardless of how much you actually need for a situation. Thief got weird because has too much initiate in practice, but then completely shuts itself down once it runs out..... its a lopsided set up, because the cost distribution isn't weighted in the areas that you'd think. Its spike attacks are insanely cheap, with all the big initiative costs going to skills that setup or disengage. Daredevil uses this a lot better with the Staff being both utility and attack, and then moving some of the stronger attacks into utilities with traditional cool down.

    then you look at stances on Soul Beast.... and its just..... not that interesting or flexiable beyond the ability to stack them enmass.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    I have a feeling players would welcome a change that gets rid of resource generating and gating mechanics, that are forced on only certain professions and specializations, and create "stances" in their place. Think we can consider this?

    As someone who Mains necromancer, I feel that the fact that Arena net didn't implement Energy and Adrenaline mechanics they had in GW1 was a massive mistake. Scourge is the most rewarding spec for me to play because of how it uses life force. So no, I can't agree with this, not in the slightest. Energy mechanics make these skills more thought provoking and interesting.

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 18, 2018

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Phosphorite.6192 said:
    So making those things just like any other skill with a cooldown? Sounds a lot less interesting to me. Personally, I enjoy variants in gameplay.

    That's great. I, however, enjoy just playing the game, not resource gate, and like the idea of more balance between professions in wvw. Profession skills are varied enough to appease my need for variants in gameplay.

    I prefer things the way they are. I find it hard to call such mechanics a gate. If I don't want to resource manage then I pick one of my toons that doesn't have to do that. I think the strength of the game is the fact that it's open to different playstyles. There's no sane reason why ALL the professions need to be on the same mechanic and that same mechanic be stances. Downplaying flavor and claiming it creates an imbalance in modes such as WvW is not a compelling argument. I play WvW mostly and I'm not convinced by your argument that resource management creates an imbalance there ( I also think your backhanded slight against PvE players isn't really necessary to make a point but that's me). There are numerous reasons that imbalances exist and I see little evidence that would suggest that switching to stances suddenly fixes those problems.

    However, the biggest thing you haven't considered is that it would be a nightmare to implement. You're pretty much suggesting that players relearn their professions because you don't like something. These are the kind of things a game considers in its design phase. Not 5 or 6 years into the life of the game. There is no material benefit for what you suggest aside from you not liking managing your resources.

    Frankly, some of us actually enjoy resource management (managing Photon Forge is fun and I enjoy the challenge of getting the most out of the time you're in Forge mode before you drop out or burn) and some of us who have played WvW and PvP really don't see it as a problem, despite your assertion that players would welcome such a change.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 18, 2018

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Phosphorite.6192 said:
    So making those things just like any other skill with a cooldown? Sounds a lot less interesting to me. Personally, I enjoy variants in gameplay.

    That's great. I, however, enjoy just playing the game, not resource gate, and like the idea of more balance between professions in wvw. Profession skills are varied enough to appease my need for variants in gameplay.

    I prefer things the way they are. I find it hard to call such mechanics a gate. If I don't want to resource manage then I pick one of my toons that doesn't have to do that. I think the strength of the game is the fact that it's open to different playstyles. There's no sane reason why ALL the professions need to be on the same mechanic and that same mechanic be stances. Downplaying flavor and claiming it creates an imbalance in modes such as WvW is not a compelling argument. I play WvW mostly and I'm not convinced by your argument that resource management creates an imbalance there ( I also think your backhanded slight against PvE players isn't really necessary to make a point but that's me). There are numerous reasons that imbalances exist and I see little evidence that would suggest that switching to stances suddenly fixes those problems.

    However, the biggest thing you haven't considered is that it would be a nightmare to implement. You're pretty much suggesting that players relearn their professions because you don't like something. These are the kind of things a game considers in its design phase. Not 5 or 6 years into the life of the game. There is no material benefit for what you suggest aside from you not liking managing your resources.

    Frankly, some of us actually enjoy resource management (managing Photon Forge is fun and I enjoy the challenge of getting the most out of the time you're in Forge mode before you drop out or burn) and some of us who have played WvW and PvP really don't see it as a problem, despite your assertion that players would welcome such a change.

    So you’re saying that Druid and Shroud are not gated by resource?

    Why should a player play something else because they don’t like the mechanics of the profession? Someone could love playing a mage type Elementalist in games, but hate the design. So your answer of “play something else” doesn’t really cut it.

    So you’re aguing that the difference in 9 unique professions, with unique weapon skills across those professions, with unique slot skills and traits... are all basically the same, but what truly defines their “varied playstyle” is the resources on only some of the different professions?

    The “sane reason” is called a simple step toward balancing.

    Someone’s angle was “mostly pve”, as stated. My angle is mostly competitive play vs other players. There is a huge difference.

    Being “5 or 6 years into the lifecycle” is meaningless. Don’t act as if change isn’t possible. Games that have been around just as long, or longer, have made various changes from their original launch state. That’s a weak argument.

  • Ertrak.9506Ertrak.9506 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 18, 2018

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Phosphorite.6192 said:
    So making those things just like any other skill with a cooldown? Sounds a lot less interesting to me. Personally, I enjoy variants in gameplay.

    That's great. I, however, enjoy just playing the game, not resource gate, and like the idea of more balance between professions in wvw. Profession skills are varied enough to appease my need for variants in gameplay.

    I prefer things the way they are. I find it hard to call such mechanics a gate. If I don't want to resource manage then I pick one of my toons that doesn't have to do that. I think the strength of the game is the fact that it's open to different playstyles. There's no sane reason why ALL the professions need to be on the same mechanic and that same mechanic be stances. Downplaying flavor and claiming it creates an imbalance in modes such as WvW is not a compelling argument. I play WvW mostly and I'm not convinced by your argument that resource management creates an imbalance there ( I also think your backhanded slight against PvE players isn't really necessary to make a point but that's me). There are numerous reasons that imbalances exist and I see little evidence that would suggest that switching to stances suddenly fixes those problems.

    However, the biggest thing you haven't considered is that it would be a nightmare to implement. You're pretty much suggesting that players relearn their professions because you don't like something. These are the kind of things a game considers in its design phase. Not 5 or 6 years into the life of the game. There is no material benefit for what you suggest aside from you not liking managing your resources.

    Frankly, some of us actually enjoy resource management (managing Photon Forge is fun and I enjoy the challenge of getting the most out of the time you're in Forge mode before you drop out or burn) and some of us who have played WvW and PvP really don't see it as a problem, despite your assertion that players would welcome such a change.

    So you’re saying that Druid and Shroud are not gated by resource?

    Why should a player play something else because they don’t like the mechanics of the profession? Someone could love playing a mage type Elementalist in games, but hate the design. So your answer of “play something else” doesn’t really cut it.

    So you’re aguing that the difference in 9 unique professions, with unique weapon skills across those professions, with unique slot skills and traits... are all basically the same, but what truly defines their “varied playstyle” is the resources on only some of the different professions?

    The “sane reason” is called a simple step toward balancing.

    Someone’s angle was “mostly pve”, as stated. My angle is mostly competitive play vs other players. There is a huge difference.

    Being “5 or 6 years into the lifecycle” is meaningless. Don’t act as if change isn’t possible. Games that have been around just as long, or longer, have made various changes from their original launch state. That’s a weak argument.

    I would have to agree with them and add to what they said:

    I would absolutely say that 40+ skills per class is not what makes them unique. Three resource management is literally the profession unique mechanic that literally identifies how each class plays

    Wirh that, each class becomes homogenized. Warriors simply have another skill to use. Revs just get nothing. Necros get +5 skills. Mesmers just have +5 skills (if u include cs). Everything looses its meaning.

    You seem to believe druid is grated by the resource, yet i would argue the 15s cool down is what you're actually gated by *which is seemingly what youre advocating for? *. Sorry but of your not generating full ca before the cd its a l2p issue, not a resource issue. Yes. I mean for pvp.

    You are also under the impression this will somehow bring better balance? You realize that your shroud necro skills are as powerful as they are because of the fact that they are gated by a resource? If this was implemented your skills would end up nerfed and you would further complain.

    Think about this actually critically. What happens to warrior skills if there's only a cool down? Did you think about why specifically the spellbreaker only gets 2 bars instead of 3? That's a balance decision. With only a cool down that makes burst skills on spellbreaker equally damaging as berserker, while also getting full counter abd the utility of the spellbreakers kit. This inherently makes the spellbreaker better in all scenarios and actually harder to balance in the long run

    Take a look at mesmers. Ppl complain they're already over powered. Now imagine they don't even have to generate clones to get the full power of a shatter or ambush even?

    See where this is going?

    Face value of this looks great from a bias point of view. Now actually think about it critically from every angle and realize the ramifications.

    Edit there's probably of spelling errors. I blame my phone. I'm sorry.

  • MarshallLaw.9260MarshallLaw.9260 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 18, 2018

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    I have a feeling players would welcome a change that gets rid of resource generating and gating mechanics, that are forced on only certain professions and specializations, and create "stances" in their place. Think we can consider this?

    From what I understand, this would be a huge change which in some cases would tear apart the core mechanics of a class or elite spec. I mean, I can't even imagine currently what would happen to Rev.
    With all due respect, the idea is both massively game-changing and also rather shallow and vague.
    In doing this, devs would be ripping apart established classes and functionality to rebuild it into something that may or may not work and currently sounds a bit more bland.

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MarshallLaw.9260 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    I have a feeling players would welcome a change that gets rid of resource generating and gating mechanics, that are forced on only certain professions and specializations, and create "stances" in their place. Think we can consider this?

    From what I understand, this would be a huge change which in some cases would tear apart the core mechanics of a class or elite spec. I mean, I can't even imagine currently what would happen to Rev.
    With all due respect, the idea is both massively game-changing and also rather shallow and vague.
    In doing this, devs would be ripping apart established classes and functionality to rebuild it into something that may or may not work and currently sounds a bit more bland.

    Not to mention reapers sitting in shroud, druids sitting in CA, holos sitting in PF. The amount of balance work required to make this idea not awful is ridiculous.

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 18, 2018

    @Ertrak.9506 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Phosphorite.6192 said:
    So making those things just like any other skill with a cooldown? Sounds a lot less interesting to me. Personally, I enjoy variants in gameplay.

    That's great. I, however, enjoy just playing the game, not resource gate, and like the idea of more balance between professions in wvw. Profession skills are varied enough to appease my need for variants in gameplay.

    I prefer things the way they are. I find it hard to call such mechanics a gate. If I don't want to resource manage then I pick one of my toons that doesn't have to do that. I think the strength of the game is the fact that it's open to different playstyles. There's no sane reason why ALL the professions need to be on the same mechanic and that same mechanic be stances. Downplaying flavor and claiming it creates an imbalance in modes such as WvW is not a compelling argument. I play WvW mostly and I'm not convinced by your argument that resource management creates an imbalance there ( I also think your backhanded slight against PvE players isn't really necessary to make a point but that's me). There are numerous reasons that imbalances exist and I see little evidence that would suggest that switching to stances suddenly fixes those problems.

    However, the biggest thing you haven't considered is that it would be a nightmare to implement. You're pretty much suggesting that players relearn their professions because you don't like something. These are the kind of things a game considers in its design phase. Not 5 or 6 years into the life of the game. There is no material benefit for what you suggest aside from you not liking managing your resources.

    Frankly, some of us actually enjoy resource management (managing Photon Forge is fun and I enjoy the challenge of getting the most out of the time you're in Forge mode before you drop out or burn) and some of us who have played WvW and PvP really don't see it as a problem, despite your assertion that players would welcome such a change.

    So you’re saying that Druid and Shroud are not gated by resource?

    Why should a player play something else because they don’t like the mechanics of the profession? Someone could love playing a mage type Elementalist in games, but hate the design. So your answer of “play something else” doesn’t really cut it.

    So you’re aguing that the difference in 9 unique professions, with unique weapon skills across those professions, with unique slot skills and traits... are all basically the same, but what truly defines their “varied playstyle” is the resources on only some of the different professions?

    The “sane reason” is called a simple step toward balancing.

    Someone’s angle was “mostly pve”, as stated. My angle is mostly competitive play vs other players. There is a huge difference.

    Being “5 or 6 years into the lifecycle” is meaningless. Don’t act as if change isn’t possible. Games that have been around just as long, or longer, have made various changes from their original launch state. That’s a weak argument.

    I would have to agree with them and add to what they said:

    I would absolutely say that 40+ skills per class is not what makes them unique. Three resource management is literally the profession unique mechanic that literally identifies how each class plays

    Wirh that, each class becomes homogenized. Warriors simply have another skill to use. Revs just get nothing. Necros get +5 skills. Mesmers just have +5 skills (if u include cs). Everything looses its meaning.

    You seem to believe druid is grated by the resource, yet i would argue the 15s cool down is what you're actually gated by *which is seemingly what youre advocating for? *. Sorry but of your not generating full ca before the cd its a l2p issue, not a resource issue. Yes. I mean for pvp.

    You are also under the impression this will somehow bring better balance? You realize that your shroud necro skills are as powerful as they are because of the fact that they are gated by a resource? If this was implemented your skills would end up nerfed and you would further complain.

    Think about this actually critically. What happens to warrior skills if there's only a cool down? Did you think about why specifically the spellbreaker only gets 2 bars instead of 3? That's a balance decision. With only a cool down that makes burst skills on spellbreaker equally damaging as berserker, while also getting full counter abd the utility of the spellbreakers kit. This inherently makes the spellbreaker better in all scenarios and actually harder to balance in the long run

    Take a look at mesmers. Ppl complain they're already over powered. Now imagine they don't even have to generate clones to get the full power of a shatter or ambush even?

    See where this is going?

    Face value of this looks great from a bias point of view. Now actually think about it critically from every angle and realize the ramifications.

    Edit there's probably of spelling errors. I blame my phone. I'm sorry.

    Are you joking? If you think, for example, that astral force defines playing a heal support role... that is pretty irrational. So if we were to remove astral force and make CA a stance, you see zero difference between Druid and a daredevil? You see zero difference between a damage spec vs a heal support spec??? What?

    Later I’ll post a game that had 10x more build diversity and playable roles than gw2 will ever have... That didn’t have gating resources like gw2 has on certain professions... Combat was also 10x more balanced and almost every class spec was viable in pvp, unlike gw2... Who is currently in the process of, 6 years later, starting to talk about adding in more “high level build diversity”.

    Sorry, but gw2 has some of the poorest pvp and wvw balance designs out of many mmos. This game was made for pve. MO himself stated long ago, in the wvw section, that the team was “looking for balance wins that won’t screw over pve”... And raids are the primary consideration when new elites are designed...

    This game has struggled with balance and professions development since launch, and you may think that intentionally unbalanced mechanics are some super designs for mmos, but the failed esports dream should be an indication of how subpar things are for competitive gameplay.

    And no, I don’t want to be fiddling with life force when roaming, especially when you have stuff like 3 seconds 24k Mesmer bursts from stealth on my full trailblazer necro... The devs created unnecessary imbalances that ruin what good elements they created with combat and professions...

    I said nothing about Mesmer not needing to generate clones to get the benefits of shatter... You’re not reading things correctly...

  • Ertrak.9506Ertrak.9506 Member ✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Ertrak.9506 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Phosphorite.6192 said:
    So making those things just like any other skill with a cooldown? Sounds a lot less interesting to me. Personally, I enjoy variants in gameplay.

    That's great. I, however, enjoy just playing the game, not resource gate, and like the idea of more balance between professions in wvw. Profession skills are varied enough to appease my need for variants in gameplay.

    I prefer things the way they are. I find it hard to call such mechanics a gate. If I don't want to resource manage then I pick one of my toons that doesn't have to do that. I think the strength of the game is the fact that it's open to different playstyles. There's no sane reason why ALL the professions need to be on the same mechanic and that same mechanic be stances. Downplaying flavor and claiming it creates an imbalance in modes such as WvW is not a compelling argument. I play WvW mostly and I'm not convinced by your argument that resource management creates an imbalance there ( I also think your backhanded slight against PvE players isn't really necessary to make a point but that's me). There are numerous reasons that imbalances exist and I see little evidence that would suggest that switching to stances suddenly fixes those problems.

    However, the biggest thing you haven't considered is that it would be a nightmare to implement. You're pretty much suggesting that players relearn their professions because you don't like something. These are the kind of things a game considers in its design phase. Not 5 or 6 years into the life of the game. There is no material benefit for what you suggest aside from you not liking managing your resources.

    Frankly, some of us actually enjoy resource management (managing Photon Forge is fun and I enjoy the challenge of getting the most out of the time you're in Forge mode before you drop out or burn) and some of us who have played WvW and PvP really don't see it as a problem, despite your assertion that players would welcome such a change.

    So you’re saying that Druid and Shroud are not gated by resource?

    Why should a player play something else because they don’t like the mechanics of the profession? Someone could love playing a mage type Elementalist in games, but hate the design. So your answer of “play something else” doesn’t really cut it.

    So you’re aguing that the difference in 9 unique professions, with unique weapon skills across those professions, with unique slot skills and traits... are all basically the same, but what truly defines their “varied playstyle” is the resources on only some of the different professions?

    The “sane reason” is called a simple step toward balancing.

    Someone’s angle was “mostly pve”, as stated. My angle is mostly competitive play vs other players. There is a huge difference.

    Being “5 or 6 years into the lifecycle” is meaningless. Don’t act as if change isn’t possible. Games that have been around just as long, or longer, have made various changes from their original launch state. That’s a weak argument.

    I would have to agree with them and add to what they said:

    I would absolutely say that 40+ skills per class is not what makes them unique. Three resource management is literally the profession unique mechanic that literally identifies how each class plays

    Wirh that, each class becomes homogenized. Warriors simply have another skill to use. Revs just get nothing. Necros get +5 skills. Mesmers just have +5 skills (if u include cs). Everything looses its meaning.

    You seem to believe druid is grated by the resource, yet i would argue the 15s cool down is what you're actually gated by *which is seemingly what youre advocating for? *. Sorry but of your not generating full ca before the cd its a l2p issue, not a resource issue. Yes. I mean for pvp.

    You are also under the impression this will somehow bring better balance? You realize that your shroud necro skills are as powerful as they are because of the fact that they are gated by a resource? If this was implemented your skills would end up nerfed and you would further complain.

    Think about this actually critically. What happens to warrior skills if there's only a cool down? Did you think about why specifically the spellbreaker only gets 2 bars instead of 3? That's a balance decision. With only a cool down that makes burst skills on spellbreaker equally damaging as berserker, while also getting full counter abd the utility of the spellbreakers kit. This inherently makes the spellbreaker better in all scenarios and actually harder to balance in the long run

    Take a look at mesmers. Ppl complain they're already over powered. Now imagine they don't even have to generate clones to get the full power of a shatter or ambush even?

    See where this is going?

    Face value of this looks great from a bias point of view. Now actually think about it critically from every angle and realize the ramifications.

    Edit there's probably of spelling errors. I blame my phone. I'm sorry.

    Are you joking? If you think, for example, that astral force defines playing a heal support role... that is pretty irrational. So if we were to remove astral force and make CA a stance, you see zero difference between Druid and a daredevil? You see zero difference between a damage spec vs a heal support spec??? What?

    Later I’ll post a game that had 10x more build diversity and playable roles than gw2 will ever have... That didn’t have gating resources like gw2 has on certain professions... Combat was also 10x more balanced and almost every class spec was viable in pvp, unlike gw2... Who is currently in the process of, 6 years later, starting to talk about adding in more “high level build diversity”.

    Sorry, but gw2 has some of the poorest pvp and wvw balance designs out of many mmos. This game was made for pve. MO himself stated long ago, in the wvw section, that the team was “looking for balance wins that won’t screw over pve”... And raids are the primary consideration when new elites are designed...

    This game has struggled with balance and professions development since launch, and you may think that intentionally unbalanced mechanics are some super designs for mmos, but the failed esports dream should be an indication of how subpar things are for competitive gameplay.

    And no, I don’t want to be fiddling with life force when roaming, especially when you have stuff like 3 seconds 24k Mesmer bursts from stealth on my full trailblazer necro... The devs created unnecessary imbalances that ruin what good elements they created with combat and professions...

    I said nothing about Mesmer not needing to generate clones to get the benefits of shatter... You’re not reading things correctly...

    Right. Since you don't seem to understand the difference between playstyle and fulfilling a role...

    The druid is defined by its astral force as a playstyle in which it has to build a resource, then dump it all for gain. That defines it as a druid. That defines the strategies and tactics you use with that spec

    It's CA skills and traits define are what define it as a healer/ buffer instead of a damage spec. I dont understand how this concept is hard to grasp.

    You specifically stated an example where you said you had to sit and watch your allies take damage because you were gated out of CA form. That is a player skill problem. I'm sorry. Get better.

    Yes this game has struggled with balance but homogenization will not fix that. Rs3 being a great example of a game that homogenized its combat (due to years of pvp complaints) , years into its life span, and ended up alienating over 50%of its player base (dwindling further everyday).

    You didn't address the spellbreaker example.

    I brought up mesmers because its the same principle. Clones are a mesmers resource they have to micro manage. Its the same concept for necros. You have to micro manage your resource because how that class plays.

    What you want is a new elite spec for necro that completely changes the profession mechanic. That's not, in and of itself, 100% unreasonable. That was part of the design intent of new elite specs.

    But to want all professions to get rid of resource management just because you specifically do not like it however, is unreasonable when it won't actually solve any of the problems you think it will.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ertrak.9506 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Ertrak.9506 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Phosphorite.6192 said:
    So making those things just like any other skill with a cooldown? Sounds a lot less interesting to me. Personally, I enjoy variants in gameplay.

    That's great. I, however, enjoy just playing the game, not resource gate, and like the idea of more balance between professions in wvw. Profession skills are varied enough to appease my need for variants in gameplay.

    I prefer things the way they are. I find it hard to call such mechanics a gate. If I don't want to resource manage then I pick one of my toons that doesn't have to do that. I think the strength of the game is the fact that it's open to different playstyles. There's no sane reason why ALL the professions need to be on the same mechanic and that same mechanic be stances. Downplaying flavor and claiming it creates an imbalance in modes such as WvW is not a compelling argument. I play WvW mostly and I'm not convinced by your argument that resource management creates an imbalance there ( I also think your backhanded slight against PvE players isn't really necessary to make a point but that's me). There are numerous reasons that imbalances exist and I see little evidence that would suggest that switching to stances suddenly fixes those problems.

    However, the biggest thing you haven't considered is that it would be a nightmare to implement. You're pretty much suggesting that players relearn their professions because you don't like something. These are the kind of things a game considers in its design phase. Not 5 or 6 years into the life of the game. There is no material benefit for what you suggest aside from you not liking managing your resources.

    Frankly, some of us actually enjoy resource management (managing Photon Forge is fun and I enjoy the challenge of getting the most out of the time you're in Forge mode before you drop out or burn) and some of us who have played WvW and PvP really don't see it as a problem, despite your assertion that players would welcome such a change.

    So you’re saying that Druid and Shroud are not gated by resource?

    Why should a player play something else because they don’t like the mechanics of the profession? Someone could love playing a mage type Elementalist in games, but hate the design. So your answer of “play something else” doesn’t really cut it.

    So you’re aguing that the difference in 9 unique professions, with unique weapon skills across those professions, with unique slot skills and traits... are all basically the same, but what truly defines their “varied playstyle” is the resources on only some of the different professions?

    The “sane reason” is called a simple step toward balancing.

    Someone’s angle was “mostly pve”, as stated. My angle is mostly competitive play vs other players. There is a huge difference.

    Being “5 or 6 years into the lifecycle” is meaningless. Don’t act as if change isn’t possible. Games that have been around just as long, or longer, have made various changes from their original launch state. That’s a weak argument.

    I would have to agree with them and add to what they said:

    I would absolutely say that 40+ skills per class is not what makes them unique. Three resource management is literally the profession unique mechanic that literally identifies how each class plays

    Wirh that, each class becomes homogenized. Warriors simply have another skill to use. Revs just get nothing. Necros get +5 skills. Mesmers just have +5 skills (if u include cs). Everything looses its meaning.

    You seem to believe druid is grated by the resource, yet i would argue the 15s cool down is what you're actually gated by *which is seemingly what youre advocating for? *. Sorry but of your not generating full ca before the cd its a l2p issue, not a resource issue. Yes. I mean for pvp.

    You are also under the impression this will somehow bring better balance? You realize that your shroud necro skills are as powerful as they are because of the fact that they are gated by a resource? If this was implemented your skills would end up nerfed and you would further complain.

    Think about this actually critically. What happens to warrior skills if there's only a cool down? Did you think about why specifically the spellbreaker only gets 2 bars instead of 3? That's a balance decision. With only a cool down that makes burst skills on spellbreaker equally damaging as berserker, while also getting full counter abd the utility of the spellbreakers kit. This inherently makes the spellbreaker better in all scenarios and actually harder to balance in the long run

    Take a look at mesmers. Ppl complain they're already over powered. Now imagine they don't even have to generate clones to get the full power of a shatter or ambush even?

    See where this is going?

    Face value of this looks great from a bias point of view. Now actually think about it critically from every angle and realize the ramifications.

    Edit there's probably of spelling errors. I blame my phone. I'm sorry.

    Are you joking? If you think, for example, that astral force defines playing a heal support role... that is pretty irrational. So if we were to remove astral force and make CA a stance, you see zero difference between Druid and a daredevil? You see zero difference between a damage spec vs a heal support spec??? What?

    Later I’ll post a game that had 10x more build diversity and playable roles than gw2 will ever have... That didn’t have gating resources like gw2 has on certain professions... Combat was also 10x more balanced and almost every class spec was viable in pvp, unlike gw2... Who is currently in the process of, 6 years later, starting to talk about adding in more “high level build diversity”.

    Sorry, but gw2 has some of the poorest pvp and wvw balance designs out of many mmos. This game was made for pve. MO himself stated long ago, in the wvw section, that the team was “looking for balance wins that won’t screw over pve”... And raids are the primary consideration when new elites are designed...

    This game has struggled with balance and professions development since launch, and you may think that intentionally unbalanced mechanics are some super designs for mmos, but the failed esports dream should be an indication of how subpar things are for competitive gameplay.

    And no, I don’t want to be fiddling with life force when roaming, especially when you have stuff like 3 seconds 24k Mesmer bursts from stealth on my full trailblazer necro... The devs created unnecessary imbalances that ruin what good elements they created with combat and professions...

    I said nothing about Mesmer not needing to generate clones to get the benefits of shatter... You’re not reading things correctly...

    Right. Since you don't seem to understand the difference between playstyle and fulfilling a role...

    The druid is defined by its astral force as a playstyle in which it has to build a resource, then dump it all for gain. That defines it as a druid. That defines the strategies and tactics you use with that spec

    It's CA skills and traits define are what define it as a healer/ buffer instead of a damage spec. I dont understand how this concept is hard to grasp.

    You specifically stated an example where you said you had to sit and watch your allies take damage because you were gated out of CA form. That is a player skill problem. I'm sorry. Get better.

    Yes this game has struggled with balance but homogenization will not fix that. Rs3 being a great example of a game that homogenized its combat (due to years of pvp complaints) , years into its life span, and ended up alienating over 50%of its player base (dwindling further everyday).

    You didn't address the spellbreaker example.

    I brought up mesmers because its the same principle. Clones are a mesmers resource they have to micro manage. Its the same concept for necros. You have to micro manage your resource because how that class plays.

    What you want is a new elite spec for necro that completely changes the profession mechanic. That's not, in and of itself, 100% unreasonable. That was part of the design intent of new elite specs.

    But to want all professions to get rid of resource management just because you specifically do not like it however, is unreasonable when it won't actually solve any of the problems you think it will.

    I’m sorry, but it’s hard to hold a discussion with someone who believes a resource mechanic defines the intended role. Druid is a healer spec. Removing astral force from the equation, and creating a stance, still makes Druid a heal spec... sans annoying mechanics. And making said change doesn’t homogenize anything, because the skills and traits are the defining factor... Your argument is like saying Druid and Daredevil staff skills are the same...

    GL

  • Ertrak.9506Ertrak.9506 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 18, 2018

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Ertrak.9506 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Ertrak.9506 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Phosphorite.6192 said:
    So making those things just like any other skill with a cooldown? Sounds a lot less interesting to me. Personally, I enjoy variants in gameplay.

    That's great. I, however, enjoy just playing the game, not resource gate, and like the idea of more balance between professions in wvw. Profession skills are varied enough to appease my need for variants in gameplay.

    I prefer things the way they are. I find it hard to call such mechanics a gate. If I don't want to resource manage then I pick one of my toons that doesn't have to do that. I think the strength of the game is the fact that it's open to different playstyles. There's no sane reason why ALL the professions need to be on the same mechanic and that same mechanic be stances. Downplaying flavor and claiming it creates an imbalance in modes such as WvW is not a compelling argument. I play WvW mostly and I'm not convinced by your argument that resource management creates an imbalance there ( I also think your backhanded slight against PvE players isn't really necessary to make a point but that's me). There are numerous reasons that imbalances exist and I see little evidence that would suggest that switching to stances suddenly fixes those problems.

    However, the biggest thing you haven't considered is that it would be a nightmare to implement. You're pretty much suggesting that players relearn their professions because you don't like something. These are the kind of things a game considers in its design phase. Not 5 or 6 years into the life of the game. There is no material benefit for what you suggest aside from you not liking managing your resources.

    Frankly, some of us actually enjoy resource management (managing Photon Forge is fun and I enjoy the challenge of getting the most out of the time you're in Forge mode before you drop out or burn) and some of us who have played WvW and PvP really don't see it as a problem, despite your assertion that players would welcome such a change.

    So you’re saying that Druid and Shroud are not gated by resource?

    Why should a player play something else because they don’t like the mechanics of the profession? Someone could love playing a mage type Elementalist in games, but hate the design. So your answer of “play something else” doesn’t really cut it.

    So you’re aguing that the difference in 9 unique professions, with unique weapon skills across those professions, with unique slot skills and traits... are all basically the same, but what truly defines their “varied playstyle” is the resources on only some of the different professions?

    The “sane reason” is called a simple step toward balancing.

    Someone’s angle was “mostly pve”, as stated. My angle is mostly competitive play vs other players. There is a huge difference.

    Being “5 or 6 years into the lifecycle” is meaningless. Don’t act as if change isn’t possible. Games that have been around just as long, or longer, have made various changes from their original launch state. That’s a weak argument.

    I would have to agree with them and add to what they said:

    I would absolutely say that 40+ skills per class is not what makes them unique. Three resource management is literally the profession unique mechanic that literally identifies how each class plays

    Wirh that, each class becomes homogenized. Warriors simply have another skill to use. Revs just get nothing. Necros get +5 skills. Mesmers just have +5 skills (if u include cs). Everything looses its meaning.

    You seem to believe druid is grated by the resource, yet i would argue the 15s cool down is what you're actually gated by *which is seemingly what youre advocating for? *. Sorry but of your not generating full ca before the cd its a l2p issue, not a resource issue. Yes. I mean for pvp.

    You are also under the impression this will somehow bring better balance? You realize that your shroud necro skills are as powerful as they are because of the fact that they are gated by a resource? If this was implemented your skills would end up nerfed and you would further complain.

    Think about this actually critically. What happens to warrior skills if there's only a cool down? Did you think about why specifically the spellbreaker only gets 2 bars instead of 3? That's a balance decision. With only a cool down that makes burst skills on spellbreaker equally damaging as berserker, while also getting full counter abd the utility of the spellbreakers kit. This inherently makes the spellbreaker better in all scenarios and actually harder to balance in the long run

    Take a look at mesmers. Ppl complain they're already over powered. Now imagine they don't even have to generate clones to get the full power of a shatter or ambush even?

    See where this is going?

    Face value of this looks great from a bias point of view. Now actually think about it critically from every angle and realize the ramifications.

    Edit there's probably of spelling errors. I blame my phone. I'm sorry.

    Are you joking? If you think, for example, that astral force defines playing a heal support role... that is pretty irrational. So if we were to remove astral force and make CA a stance, you see zero difference between Druid and a daredevil? You see zero difference between a damage spec vs a heal support spec??? What?

    Later I’ll post a game that had 10x more build diversity and playable roles than gw2 will ever have... That didn’t have gating resources like gw2 has on certain professions... Combat was also 10x more balanced and almost every class spec was viable in pvp, unlike gw2... Who is currently in the process of, 6 years later, starting to talk about adding in more “high level build diversity”.

    Sorry, but gw2 has some of the poorest pvp and wvw balance designs out of many mmos. This game was made for pve. MO himself stated long ago, in the wvw section, that the team was “looking for balance wins that won’t screw over pve”... And raids are the primary consideration when new elites are designed...

    This game has struggled with balance and professions development since launch, and you may think that intentionally unbalanced mechanics are some super designs for mmos, but the failed esports dream should be an indication of how subpar things are for competitive gameplay.

    And no, I don’t want to be fiddling with life force when roaming, especially when you have stuff like 3 seconds 24k Mesmer bursts from stealth on my full trailblazer necro... The devs created unnecessary imbalances that ruin what good elements they created with combat and professions...

    I said nothing about Mesmer not needing to generate clones to get the benefits of shatter... You’re not reading things correctly...

    Right. Since you don't seem to understand the difference between playstyle and fulfilling a role...

    The druid is defined by its astral force as a playstyle in which it has to build a resource, then dump it all for gain. That defines it as a druid. That defines the strategies and tactics you use with that spec

    It's CA skills and traits define are what define it as a healer/ buffer instead of a damage spec. I dont understand how this concept is hard to grasp.

    You specifically stated an example where you said you had to sit and watch your allies take damage because you were gated out of CA form. That is a player skill problem. I'm sorry. Get better.

    Yes this game has struggled with balance but homogenization will not fix that. Rs3 being a great example of a game that homogenized its combat (due to years of pvp complaints) , years into its life span, and ended up alienating over 50%of its player base (dwindling further everyday).

    You didn't address the spellbreaker example.

    I brought up mesmers because its the same principle. Clones are a mesmers resource they have to micro manage. Its the same concept for necros. You have to micro manage your resource because how that class plays.

    What you want is a new elite spec for necro that completely changes the profession mechanic. That's not, in and of itself, 100% unreasonable. That was part of the design intent of new elite specs.

    But to want all professions to get rid of resource management just because you specifically do not like it however, is unreasonable when it won't actually solve any of the problems you think it will.

    I’m sorry, but it’s hard to hold a discussion with someone who believes a resource mechanic defines the intended role. Druid is a healer spec. Removing astral force from the equation, and creating a stance, still makes Druid a heal spec... sans annoying mechanics. And making said change doesn’t homogenize anything, because the skills and traits are the defining factor... Your argument is like saying Druid and Daredevil staff skills are the same...

    GL

    Did you... did you really just reverse exactly what i literally spelled out for you? Wow.

    Indeed, Good Luck.

    Edit i changed my mind. I am going to make one finall effort, for you.

    I just said, and i quote:

    The resource.
    Defines.
    The playstyle.

    The playstyle
    Is not.
    The role.

    The playstyle, is building a resource to dump.

    The role, is to heal and buff.

    The playstyle, comes from generating the resource, and when you decide to dump it.

    The role, comes from what the skills physically do.

    The generating and dumping of a resource, is what druids do. Druid, is just, a name.

    The healing, is a result of the physical output by the skills.

    One. Does not. Cause. The other.

    Three resource mechanic is there to define how you go about accessing ca.

    You can either a) generate it slowly with damage output or b) generate it rapidly by healing.

    This defines whether you have to sacrifice your dps (burst in the case of pvp) to dedicate yourself to healing or only use the CA form for key moments.

    That is how the resource defines the playstyle.

    A time gate makes it so there's only 1 way to play: burst dps, since you're going to be locked out for a specific set of time anyways which is harder to balance since it inherently makes it impossible to be worth going full healing.

    I did not say, as per your example, a dare devil and druid would fill the same role. i did however say the would have the same playstyle. In this case the playstyle is just using your strongest skills off CD. One does this for damage, the other does this for healing.

    That's it. That is my best explanation i can give you.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ertrak.9506 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Ertrak.9506 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Ertrak.9506 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Phosphorite.6192 said:
    So making those things just like any other skill with a cooldown? Sounds a lot less interesting to me. Personally, I enjoy variants in gameplay.

    That's great. I, however, enjoy just playing the game, not resource gate, and like the idea of more balance between professions in wvw. Profession skills are varied enough to appease my need for variants in gameplay.

    I prefer things the way they are. I find it hard to call such mechanics a gate. If I don't want to resource manage then I pick one of my toons that doesn't have to do that. I think the strength of the game is the fact that it's open to different playstyles. There's no sane reason why ALL the professions need to be on the same mechanic and that same mechanic be stances. Downplaying flavor and claiming it creates an imbalance in modes such as WvW is not a compelling argument. I play WvW mostly and I'm not convinced by your argument that resource management creates an imbalance there ( I also think your backhanded slight against PvE players isn't really necessary to make a point but that's me). There are numerous reasons that imbalances exist and I see little evidence that would suggest that switching to stances suddenly fixes those problems.

    However, the biggest thing you haven't considered is that it would be a nightmare to implement. You're pretty much suggesting that players relearn their professions because you don't like something. These are the kind of things a game considers in its design phase. Not 5 or 6 years into the life of the game. There is no material benefit for what you suggest aside from you not liking managing your resources.

    Frankly, some of us actually enjoy resource management (managing Photon Forge is fun and I enjoy the challenge of getting the most out of the time you're in Forge mode before you drop out or burn) and some of us who have played WvW and PvP really don't see it as a problem, despite your assertion that players would welcome such a change.

    So you’re saying that Druid and Shroud are not gated by resource?

    Why should a player play something else because they don’t like the mechanics of the profession? Someone could love playing a mage type Elementalist in games, but hate the design. So your answer of “play something else” doesn’t really cut it.

    So you’re aguing that the difference in 9 unique professions, with unique weapon skills across those professions, with unique slot skills and traits... are all basically the same, but what truly defines their “varied playstyle” is the resources on only some of the different professions?

    The “sane reason” is called a simple step toward balancing.

    Someone’s angle was “mostly pve”, as stated. My angle is mostly competitive play vs other players. There is a huge difference.

    Being “5 or 6 years into the lifecycle” is meaningless. Don’t act as if change isn’t possible. Games that have been around just as long, or longer, have made various changes from their original launch state. That’s a weak argument.

    I would have to agree with them and add to what they said:

    I would absolutely say that 40+ skills per class is not what makes them unique. Three resource management is literally the profession unique mechanic that literally identifies how each class plays

    Wirh that, each class becomes homogenized. Warriors simply have another skill to use. Revs just get nothing. Necros get +5 skills. Mesmers just have +5 skills (if u include cs). Everything looses its meaning.

    You seem to believe druid is grated by the resource, yet i would argue the 15s cool down is what you're actually gated by *which is seemingly what youre advocating for? *. Sorry but of your not generating full ca before the cd its a l2p issue, not a resource issue. Yes. I mean for pvp.

    You are also under the impression this will somehow bring better balance? You realize that your shroud necro skills are as powerful as they are because of the fact that they are gated by a resource? If this was implemented your skills would end up nerfed and you would further complain.

    Think about this actually critically. What happens to warrior skills if there's only a cool down? Did you think about why specifically the spellbreaker only gets 2 bars instead of 3? That's a balance decision. With only a cool down that makes burst skills on spellbreaker equally damaging as berserker, while also getting full counter abd the utility of the spellbreakers kit. This inherently makes the spellbreaker better in all scenarios and actually harder to balance in the long run

    Take a look at mesmers. Ppl complain they're already over powered. Now imagine they don't even have to generate clones to get the full power of a shatter or ambush even?

    See where this is going?

    Face value of this looks great from a bias point of view. Now actually think about it critically from every angle and realize the ramifications.

    Edit there's probably of spelling errors. I blame my phone. I'm sorry.

    Are you joking? If you think, for example, that astral force defines playing a heal support role... that is pretty irrational. So if we were to remove astral force and make CA a stance, you see zero difference between Druid and a daredevil? You see zero difference between a damage spec vs a heal support spec??? What?

    Later I’ll post a game that had 10x more build diversity and playable roles than gw2 will ever have... That didn’t have gating resources like gw2 has on certain professions... Combat was also 10x more balanced and almost every class spec was viable in pvp, unlike gw2... Who is currently in the process of, 6 years later, starting to talk about adding in more “high level build diversity”.

    Sorry, but gw2 has some of the poorest pvp and wvw balance designs out of many mmos. This game was made for pve. MO himself stated long ago, in the wvw section, that the team was “looking for balance wins that won’t screw over pve”... And raids are the primary consideration when new elites are designed...

    This game has struggled with balance and professions development since launch, and you may think that intentionally unbalanced mechanics are some super designs for mmos, but the failed esports dream should be an indication of how subpar things are for competitive gameplay.

    And no, I don’t want to be fiddling with life force when roaming, especially when you have stuff like 3 seconds 24k Mesmer bursts from stealth on my full trailblazer necro... The devs created unnecessary imbalances that ruin what good elements they created with combat and professions...

    I said nothing about Mesmer not needing to generate clones to get the benefits of shatter... You’re not reading things correctly...

    Right. Since you don't seem to understand the difference between playstyle and fulfilling a role...

    The druid is defined by its astral force as a playstyle in which it has to build a resource, then dump it all for gain. That defines it as a druid. That defines the strategies and tactics you use with that spec

    It's CA skills and traits define are what define it as a healer/ buffer instead of a damage spec. I dont understand how this concept is hard to grasp.

    You specifically stated an example where you said you had to sit and watch your allies take damage because you were gated out of CA form. That is a player skill problem. I'm sorry. Get better.

    Yes this game has struggled with balance but homogenization will not fix that. Rs3 being a great example of a game that homogenized its combat (due to years of pvp complaints) , years into its life span, and ended up alienating over 50%of its player base (dwindling further everyday).

    You didn't address the spellbreaker example.

    I brought up mesmers because its the same principle. Clones are a mesmers resource they have to micro manage. Its the same concept for necros. You have to micro manage your resource because how that class plays.

    What you want is a new elite spec for necro that completely changes the profession mechanic. That's not, in and of itself, 100% unreasonable. That was part of the design intent of new elite specs.

    But to want all professions to get rid of resource management just because you specifically do not like it however, is unreasonable when it won't actually solve any of the problems you think it will.

    I’m sorry, but it’s hard to hold a discussion with someone who believes a resource mechanic defines the intended role. Druid is a healer spec. Removing astral force from the equation, and creating a stance, still makes Druid a heal spec... sans annoying mechanics. And making said change doesn’t homogenize anything, because the skills and traits are the defining factor... Your argument is like saying Druid and Daredevil staff skills are the same...

    GL

    Did you... did you really just reverse exactly what i literally spelled out for you? Wow.

    Indeed, Good Luck.

    Edit i changed my mind. I am going to make one finall effort, for you.

    I just said, and i quote:

    The resource.
    Defines.
    The playstyle.

    The playstyle
    Is not.
    The role.

    The playstyle, is building a resource to dump.

    The role, is to heal and buff.

    The playstyle, comes from generating the resource, and when you decide to dump it.

    The role, comes from what the skills physically do.

    The generating and dumping of a resource, is what druids do. Druid, is just, a name.

    The healing, is a result of the physical output by the skills.

    One. Does not. Cause. The other.

    Three resource mechanic is there to define how you go about accessing ca.

    You can either a) generate it slowly with damage output or b) generate it rapidly by healing.

    This defines whether you have to sacrifice your dps (burst in the case of pvp) to dedicate yourself to healing or only use the CA form for key moments.

    That is how the resource defines the playstyle.

    A time gate makes it so there's only 1 way to play: burst dps, since you're going to be locked out for a specific set of time anyways which is harder to balance since it inherently makes it impossible to be worth going full healing.

    I did not say, as per your example, a dare devil and druid would fill the same role. i did however say the would have the same playstyle. In this case the playstyle is just using your strongest skills off CD. One does this for damage, the other does this for healing.

    That's it. That is my best explanation i can give you.

    You... "I would absolutely say that 40+ skills per class is not what makes them unique."...

    I can't have a productive conversation with your way of thinking. To think that resource mechanics is a some sort of "playstyle" is beyond me. The skills created by the devs define the role a player can access to play. Resources are a means to access X skills to perform X job, or result, in combat... Astral force doesn't heal people. CA skills heal people. Building the resources to get CA skills is not a "playstyle", it's a requirement to access those skills...

    And if you think resource mechanics, like on druid and necro, are such a great thing, then let's make sure we have those same types of resource gating designs on every core and elite profession build.. so we can improve what you consider a "playstyle".

  • Ertrak.9506Ertrak.9506 Member ✭✭✭

    K gl i tried. I really did.

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Phosphorite.6192 said:
    So making those things just like any other skill with a cooldown? Sounds a lot less interesting to me. Personally, I enjoy variants in gameplay.

    That's great. I, however, enjoy just playing the game, not resource gate, and like the idea of more balance between professions in wvw. Profession skills are varied enough to appease my need for variants in gameplay.

    I prefer things the way they are. I find it hard to call such mechanics a gate. If I don't want to resource manage then I pick one of my toons that doesn't have to do that. I think the strength of the game is the fact that it's open to different playstyles. There's no sane reason why ALL the professions need to be on the same mechanic and that same mechanic be stances. Downplaying flavor and claiming it creates an imbalance in modes such as WvW is not a compelling argument. I play WvW mostly and I'm not convinced by your argument that resource management creates an imbalance there ( I also think your backhanded slight against PvE players isn't really necessary to make a point but that's me). There are numerous reasons that imbalances exist and I see little evidence that would suggest that switching to stances suddenly fixes those problems.

    However, the biggest thing you haven't considered is that it would be a nightmare to implement. You're pretty much suggesting that players relearn their professions because you don't like something. These are the kind of things a game considers in its design phase. Not 5 or 6 years into the life of the game. There is no material benefit for what you suggest aside from you not liking managing your resources.

    Frankly, some of us actually enjoy resource management (managing Photon Forge is fun and I enjoy the challenge of getting the most out of the time you're in Forge mode before you drop out or burn) and some of us who have played WvW and PvP really don't see it as a problem, despite your assertion that players would welcome such a change.

    So you’re saying that Druid and Shroud are not gated by resource?

    Why should a player play something else because they don’t like the mechanics of the profession? Someone could love playing a mage type Elementalist in games, but hate the design. So your answer of “play something else” doesn’t really cut it.

    So you’re aguing that the difference in 9 unique professions, with unique weapon skills across those professions, with unique slot skills and traits... are all basically the same, but what truly defines their “varied playstyle” is the resources on only some of the different professions?

    The “sane reason” is called a simple step toward balancing.

    Someone’s angle was “mostly pve”, as stated. My angle is mostly competitive play vs other players. There is a huge difference.

    Being “5 or 6 years into the lifecycle” is meaningless. Don’t act as if change isn’t possible. Games that have been around just as long, or longer, have made various changes from their original launch state. That’s a weak argument.

    Why should everyone who has been playing the game since release change how they play because you don't like something? You're whole "why should a player something else because they don’t like the mechanics of the profession?" is a faulty premise because I'm suggesting that if you don't like a particular mechanic then play a profession that suits your taste. There are plenty of professions that would suit your tastes. What you are suggesting is upending the entire game because YOU don't like something. You are suggesting that all the mechanics work the exact same way, stances, because you don't like it. I'm arguing that the current set up provides people who like resource management something to play with and people who don't like it something to play with it. If someone likes playing a mage type but hates the design then that's on them. Some people like the design. So should the rest of us suffer because of one person who doesn't like it? On no level can you argue against people playing different professions to avoid the resource mechanic when you are essentially arguing that the entire game be reworked to avoid having to use resources.

    So why should the rest of us be forced to change how we play the game just to suit you? I can use the entirety of your response to me to argue against your premise.

    And no, there is no sane reason. You have not effectively established that the game is not balanced due to resource-based mechanics. The only thing you've established is that you don't like it and that the rest of us should change our playstyles because of that. So no, I'm not arguing that resource is what defines their playstyle. There is a lot that defines a playstyle of which resource management is just one thing. Your entire argument from start to finish is fairly weak. So yeah, there is no sane or logical reasons to rework the entire game design six years into it's life to fix a balance issue you have not effectively established as being there.

    Also, you still opted to be insulting to an entire playstyle. You can't justify it by claiming you are talking about playing competitively. In case you missed it, several folks who have responded to you play competitively, myself included, who stand firmly against your suggestion.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 18, 2018

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Phosphorite.6192 said:
    So making those things just like any other skill with a cooldown? Sounds a lot less interesting to me. Personally, I enjoy variants in gameplay.

    That's great. I, however, enjoy just playing the game, not resource gate, and like the idea of more balance between professions in wvw. Profession skills are varied enough to appease my need for variants in gameplay.

    I prefer things the way they are. I find it hard to call such mechanics a gate. If I don't want to resource manage then I pick one of my toons that doesn't have to do that. I think the strength of the game is the fact that it's open to different playstyles. There's no sane reason why ALL the professions need to be on the same mechanic and that same mechanic be stances. Downplaying flavor and claiming it creates an imbalance in modes such as WvW is not a compelling argument. I play WvW mostly and I'm not convinced by your argument that resource management creates an imbalance there ( I also think your backhanded slight against PvE players isn't really necessary to make a point but that's me). There are numerous reasons that imbalances exist and I see little evidence that would suggest that switching to stances suddenly fixes those problems.

    However, the biggest thing you haven't considered is that it would be a nightmare to implement. You're pretty much suggesting that players relearn their professions because you don't like something. These are the kind of things a game considers in its design phase. Not 5 or 6 years into the life of the game. There is no material benefit for what you suggest aside from you not liking managing your resources.

    Frankly, some of us actually enjoy resource management (managing Photon Forge is fun and I enjoy the challenge of getting the most out of the time you're in Forge mode before you drop out or burn) and some of us who have played WvW and PvP really don't see it as a problem, despite your assertion that players would welcome such a change.

    So you’re saying that Druid and Shroud are not gated by resource?

    Why should a player play something else because they don’t like the mechanics of the profession? Someone could love playing a mage type Elementalist in games, but hate the design. So your answer of “play something else” doesn’t really cut it.

    So you’re aguing that the difference in 9 unique professions, with unique weapon skills across those professions, with unique slot skills and traits... are all basically the same, but what truly defines their “varied playstyle” is the resources on only some of the different professions?

    The “sane reason” is called a simple step toward balancing.

    Someone’s angle was “mostly pve”, as stated. My angle is mostly competitive play vs other players. There is a huge difference.

    Being “5 or 6 years into the lifecycle” is meaningless. Don’t act as if change isn’t possible. Games that have been around just as long, or longer, have made various changes from their original launch state. That’s a weak argument.

    Why should everyone who has been playing the game since release change how they play because you don't like something? You're whole "why should a player something else because they don’t like the mechanics of the profession?" is a faulty premise because I'm suggesting that if you don't like a particular mechanic then play a profession that suits your taste. There are plenty of professions that would suit your tastes. What you are suggesting is upending the entire game because YOU don't like something. You are suggesting that all the mechanics work the exact same way, stances, because you don't like it. I'm arguing that the current set up provides people who like resource management something to play with and people who don't like it something to play with it. If someone likes playing a mage type but hates the design then that's on them. Some people like the design. So should the rest of us suffer because of one person who doesn't like it? On no level can you argue against people playing different professions to avoid the resource mechanic when you are essentially arguing that the entire game be reworked to avoid having to use resources.

    So why should the rest of us be forced to change how we play the game just to suit you? I can use the entirety of your response to me to argue against your premise.

    And no, there is no sane reason. You have not effectively established that the game is not balanced due to resource-based mechanics. The only thing you've established is that you don't like it and that the rest of us should change our playstyles because of that. So no, I'm not arguing that resource is what defines their playstyle. There is a lot that defines a playstyle of which resource management is just one thing. Your entire argument from start to finish is fairly weak. So yeah, there is no sane or logical reasons to rework the entire game design six years into it's life to fix a balance issue you have not effectively established as being there.

    Also, you still opted to be insulting to an entire playstyle. You can't justify it by claiming you are talking about playing competitively. In case you missed it, several folks who have responded to you play competitively, myself included, who stand firmly against your suggestion.

    You can’t understand that requiring resources to access certain skills is gating skills. Some have stricter resources than other, and that’s an unnecessary design that contributes to 1, of many, balance issues.

    You’re acting as if having some design changes, on certain professions and elites, is somehow a catastrophic change. It’s not, sorry.

    Most play the class and role they like, not the mechanic they like... Time to differentiate between the two.

    Removing a resource gate in selective areas is somehow associated with “suffering”? Please explain more?

    You haven’t provided any rational, or “sane”, reason why things shouldn’t change. Your rebuttal was that the game in in a later lifecycle... Like other game companies haven’t made revamps from original designs...

    Spin doctoring my “pve” comment doesn’t really work. Try reading the entire exchange and my full sentences.

  • aceofbass.2163aceofbass.2163 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lunateric.3708 said:
    oversimplification.

    This pretty much sums up this post. Mind you this is still an MMORPG and I feel you are just wanting it to have the mechanics of MOBAs or games like OW.

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Phosphorite.6192 said:
    So making those things just like any other skill with a cooldown? Sounds a lot less interesting to me. Personally, I enjoy variants in gameplay.

    That's great. I, however, enjoy just playing the game, not resource gate, and like the idea of more balance between professions in wvw. Profession skills are varied enough to appease my need for variants in gameplay.

    I prefer things the way they are. I find it hard to call such mechanics a gate. If I don't want to resource manage then I pick one of my toons that doesn't have to do that. I think the strength of the game is the fact that it's open to different playstyles. There's no sane reason why ALL the professions need to be on the same mechanic and that same mechanic be stances. Downplaying flavor and claiming it creates an imbalance in modes such as WvW is not a compelling argument. I play WvW mostly and I'm not convinced by your argument that resource management creates an imbalance there ( I also think your backhanded slight against PvE players isn't really necessary to make a point but that's me). There are numerous reasons that imbalances exist and I see little evidence that would suggest that switching to stances suddenly fixes those problems.

    However, the biggest thing you haven't considered is that it would be a nightmare to implement. You're pretty much suggesting that players relearn their professions because you don't like something. These are the kind of things a game considers in its design phase. Not 5 or 6 years into the life of the game. There is no material benefit for what you suggest aside from you not liking managing your resources.

    Frankly, some of us actually enjoy resource management (managing Photon Forge is fun and I enjoy the challenge of getting the most out of the time you're in Forge mode before you drop out or burn) and some of us who have played WvW and PvP really don't see it as a problem, despite your assertion that players would welcome such a change.

    So you’re saying that Druid and Shroud are not gated by resource?

    Why should a player play something else because they don’t like the mechanics of the profession? Someone could love playing a mage type Elementalist in games, but hate the design. So your answer of “play something else” doesn’t really cut it.

    So you’re aguing that the difference in 9 unique professions, with unique weapon skills across those professions, with unique slot skills and traits... are all basically the same, but what truly defines their “varied playstyle” is the resources on only some of the different professions?

    The “sane reason” is called a simple step toward balancing.

    Someone’s angle was “mostly pve”, as stated. My angle is mostly competitive play vs other players. There is a huge difference.

    Being “5 or 6 years into the lifecycle” is meaningless. Don’t act as if change isn’t possible. Games that have been around just as long, or longer, have made various changes from their original launch state. That’s a weak argument.

    Why should everyone who has been playing the game since release change how they play because you don't like something? You're whole "why should a player something else because they don’t like the mechanics of the profession?" is a faulty premise because I'm suggesting that if you don't like a particular mechanic then play a profession that suits your taste. There are plenty of professions that would suit your tastes. What you are suggesting is upending the entire game because YOU don't like something. You are suggesting that all the mechanics work the exact same way, stances, because you don't like it. I'm arguing that the current set up provides people who like resource management something to play with and people who don't like it something to play with it. If someone likes playing a mage type but hates the design then that's on them. Some people like the design. So should the rest of us suffer because of one person who doesn't like it? On no level can you argue against people playing different professions to avoid the resource mechanic when you are essentially arguing that the entire game be reworked to avoid having to use resources.

    So why should the rest of us be forced to change how we play the game just to suit you? I can use the entirety of your response to me to argue against your premise.

    And no, there is no sane reason. You have not effectively established that the game is not balanced due to resource-based mechanics. The only thing you've established is that you don't like it and that the rest of us should change our playstyles because of that. So no, I'm not arguing that resource is what defines their playstyle. There is a lot that defines a playstyle of which resource management is just one thing. Your entire argument from start to finish is fairly weak. So yeah, there is no sane or logical reasons to rework the entire game design six years into it's life to fix a balance issue you have not effectively established as being there.

    Also, you still opted to be insulting to an entire playstyle. You can't justify it by claiming you are talking about playing competitively. In case you missed it, several folks who have responded to you play competitively, myself included, who stand firmly against your suggestion.

    You can’t understand that requiring resources to access certain skills is gating skills. Some have stricter resources than other, and that’s an unnecessary design that contributes to 1, of many, balance issues.

    You’re acting as if having some design changes, on certain professions and elites, is somehow a catastrophic change. It’s not, sorry.

    Most play the class and role they like, not the mechanic they like... Time to differentiate between the two.

    Removing a resource gate in selective areas is somehow associated with “suffering”? Please explain more?

    You haven’t provided any rational, or “sane”, reason why things shouldn’t change. Your rebuttal was that the game in in a later lifecycle... Like other game companies haven’t made revamps from original designs...

    Spin doctoring my “pve” comment doesn’t really work. Try reading the entire exchange and my full sentences.

    Yeah, no I'm not explaining anything about suffering. You have done ZERO work to establish an actual imbalance in gameplay or design. You've just told people that they don't understand or can't understand. I don't need to provide a rational or a reason for anything. I'm not the one arguing for a change. You are. The burden of proof is on you. You are the one that has to provide a sane and logical rational beyond you not liking gating mechanics. You have to illustrate exactly how an imbalance is created and why that imbalance is specifically related to resource management. You also need to establish why it's an actual imbalance and not a poor play style, inability to manage your resources properly, or the professions just not being suited to you.

    You have yet to actually formulate an argument, true counterpoints or counter-arguments, or a sufficient rebuttal to anything anyone has said. You have continually deflected and attempted to shift the burden of proof from yourself to other people. However, that's not how a discussion works. The person who makes the claim must also provide the warrant for the proposed change. Claiming it fixes game imbalances in competitive play (while at the same time trying to slight PvE play) is not a sufficient warrant without you establishing to a reasonable degree that whatever game imbalance you talk of is related to resource management or that what you speak of is actually an imbalance. The closest you have gotten on that mark is complaining that a Druid is not being able to heal his buddies during combat, but that's not a game imbalance but improper management of your abilities. You have made the claim that it acts as a gate without even remotely establishing that gate as a bad thing or an imbalance. You have pretty much constructed an argument from ignorance. That may work with your group of friends but I'm actually trained in formal debate and discussions. You have done nothing to build a case, prove your case, or provide a reason why it's needed.

    I actually don't have to do anything. I can opt to counter anything you say but I'm actually not required to do anything other than disagree. The burden of proof does not rest on me since I did not make the inherent claim that started this discussion. So spin all the tricks you wish but they aren't going to fly with me. I have consistently pointed out that you have not provided any evidence for your case, a point to which you have dodged and instead attempted to shift the conversation back onto what I haven't proven. That tactic may work with your group of friends, but it doesn't work on me.

    So prove your case. Prove an actual imbalance. Prove how stances fix this imbalance. Illustrate how what you are complaining about is an actual gaming problem and not just your inability to manage your resources properly. At present no one has stood in agreement with you, despite your erroneous claim that people would welcome the change. Provide the sane and logical rational because at present all we have is you complaining about something you don't like and nothing else.

  • Diak Atoli.2085Diak Atoli.2085 Member ✭✭✭

    I quite like the resource management aspect of the professions I play; they make the gameplay more fun for me.

    As such, I prefer that they remain as they are.

  • I would absolutely dislike further homogenization of the classes. Having a complex mechanic or one that requires more management allows for new and different types of skills and playstyles that can consist of stronger and more complex skills that enriches combat and class identity. Like others have said, if you turn these mechanics into just regular old cooldown skills you would have to nerf them immensley. Holosmiths forge mode would become nothing more than a flashy looking kit for engis instead of a direct power upgrade dependant on resource management that keeps it from being op.

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