T4 and pugging: why are things worse?

I have been doing T4 daily with pugs, throughout the years. Things were mostly fine, we did fractals without needing necessarily meta compositions or meta builds. The occasional wipe didnt bother anyone, really. Lately, however, I see a big difference in pugs. People who dont bother dodging, who dont use potions, who dont strafe to not get hit by the AoE, who just sit in the little agony AoEs and expect the druid or chrono to power them through everything, cause they "have to do dps, man, its your job to keep me alive". I have witnessed more wipes in the last 2 weeks than in the last 6 months. Do you have similar experiences, or is it just me?

No, if you don't take "carry" classes or roles it can be a wipe fiesta. After getting "Fractal God" I am running less and less CM fractals and only T4s + Recs and in my opinion the overall level of the average "T4 dailies"-LFGs has sunken because a good amount of players moved on to "CMs + T4s"-LFGs resulting in a smaller pool of players for T4s. Still, you can have good groups and run without issues like it was before but I also noticed a lot of lesser experienced players not knowing the tiniest basics or helpful skills of their classes, not to speak about boss mechanics.

For me, there are some specific fractals or bosses inside them which can be hard or unbreachable for the average T4 groups:

• Ooze at Thaumanova (a pain in the axx with inexperienced ppl)
• Mai Trin
• Twilight Oasis, although it is doable to carry peeps here.
• (First room at Underground Facility [dredge fractal] + boss depending on instabilities - more of a minor issue)

Shattered Observatory (100 normal mode) has become better but I only prefer playing it with a healer in pugs, players just step/dodge everywhere but the free space. A lot of pugs still don't run 100 (and Mai Trin + Twilight Oasis).

I've been observing that for quite a while now, several months at least. What Vinceman said, people having moved on to CM groups, is probably one factor; another one is likely that many veterans have reduced their general fractal activity by a lot. That's at least what I've noticed among the people I know. I've given up doing full PUG fractals - too many of those, like 100 and 99 normal, Mai Trin and Twilight are unbearable in the standard PUG, since people will have no clue what to do.

No "Hi" no "thanks", no food, sometimes no even potions. No communication. "Who do balls" at observatory, well it'll be me. They can't even read the special skill, at obervatory or thaumanova.People ragequit or simulate deafness when you suggest a single skill change in their build. People run away, dodge for nothing, making mesmer/druid job a bit complicated. Like Chaos "Hey guard, can you put some stabs too ?" No he can't "Can you people pack on boss ? we have druid/mesmer/stab/prot/heals...." No they can't "Can you use your buble on boss or something, SB ?" No he can't, better DPS a boss with regen/prot. OrThaumanova, people are breaking in circle all the trays at max speed, instead of just side stepping slowly; smart.

Yes PUGS sometimes are hard to understand, that's the fun. Many people, many compo,

If this is the "normal" for fractals, guess I should start doing them (and maybe even learn one or two). I could fit right in.

@"Vinceman.4572" said:No, if you don't take "carry" classes or roles it can be a wipe fiesta. After getting "Fractal God" I am running less and less CM fractals and only T4s + Recs and in my opinion the overall level of the average "T4 dailies"-LFGs has sunken because a good amount of players moved on to "CMs + T4s"-LFGs resulting in a smaller pool of players for T4s. Still, you can have good groups and run without issues like it was before but I also noticed a lot of lesser experienced players not knowing the tiniest basics or helpful skills of their classes, not to speak about boss mechanics.

For me, there are some specific fractals or bosses inside them which can be hard or unbreachable for the average T4 groups:

• Ooze at Thaumanova (a pain in the axx with inexperienced ppl)
• Mai Trin
• Twilight Oasis, although it is doable to carry peeps here.
• (First room at Underground Facility [dredge fractal] + boss depending on instabilities - more of a minor issue)

Shattered Observatory (100 normal mode) has become better but I only prefer playing it with a healer in pugs, players just step/dodge everywhere but the free space. A lot of pugs still don't run 100 (and Mai Trin + Twilight Oasis).

This is spot on.

For many old school fractal players or regulars, the influx of casual players into T4 (because their gear allows it) has created a noticeable bigger pool of players who have no clue of what they are doing.

Imagine the wipe fest that is T3 (and yes, T3 can and often is harder than T4 when your group is made up of idiots, no matter the scaling on enemies) sending more and more of these players into T4 who are no longer gated by armor (or skill requirements). The introduction of support builds like healers has allowed lower skill players to circumvent the skill gap which you had to pass in the past to get past T3. There is regularly groups looking for a druid healer for T3, FOR T3!!!

Now overall this is a good thing. More people in the game mode means more attention. Unfortunately it also means that more skilled people have moved on to challenge modes and will usually put up CM+T4 LFGs instead of only T4 daily LFGs.

It's also one of the reasons why Arenanet is so careful with implementing even slightly more challenging content. See Twilight Oasis. I do like the split between CMs and regular T4 though, it keeps higher skill players entertained while others can get their T4 rewards.

Some people just get burned out from carrying bad people every day. Why use 2 hours on something that can be done in less than 1

The skill differences between different t4 groups is so damn high, even between 100+kp groups there are such large differences.If Anet would get rid of CMs for some reason I would probably stop doing fractals completly instead of going back to t4 only russian roulette.You can imagine it like this: In a t4 only group 5 out of 6 chambers are loaded in the revolver, in the 100kp group it is only 1 in 6 chambers. So the choice is easy.

Balance patch hits and the meta is shifting. The odds of getting players trying out new class, builds or things they're not familiar with is high in LFG. Wait for the meta to stabilize or go with static groups. Sensed a slight of dejavu having this said sometime ago(?) :lol:.

A surprisingly large number of new players go straight into T4s or at least T3s before properly learning the fractal mechanics. They also go in with the mentality that it is the same as raids (most of the pugs I go with are usually playing with some [sC] raiding build). The results are what you see. Also with agony infusions being exchangeable, you don't have to ever set foot inside a fractal to be geared up for T4, save for the ring infusions that you can make up for with singularity+tears of alba.

It sucks because Anet has introduced agony as a means of minor vertical progression but this is so easily bypassed nowadays that it is irrelevant. Why do we even have agony again? It also doesn't help that players themselves (specially the ones that don't raid) consider fractals to be this supposedly easier version of raiding they can faceroll with their meta builds. Well, they obviously can't, and should obviously learn to carry their own weight. It is easy not to notice you're underperforming when there are 9 people to cover you instead of only 4. As for CMs, the groups doing those are smoother to run with but they are not without issues, and do not for a moment think that the people doing regular T4s right now are not going to eventually find their way into CMs without having improved in the slightest.

I just tried reg 99. 2 deadeyes, 1 sb, 1 chrono. No quickness, SB had no pots and kept permadying (didnt even try to dodge the jump attack of MAMA), deadeyes NEVER flanked the bosses (dps was laughable), they didnt even try to jump/dodge out of the growing AoE of Siax that spawns nightmares, they stood in the ring AoE of Siax (cause 100 blades HAD to be finished)... I quit.

@Eramonster.2718 said:Balance patch hits and the meta is shifting. The odds of getting players trying out new class, builds or things they're not familiar with is high in LFG. Wait for the meta to stabilize or go with static groups. Sensed a slight of dejavu having this said sometime ago(?) :lol:.

Nope, we are not talking about the past 8 days since balance patch. I could easily cancel it from the equation and the situation would be the same.

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Eramonster.2718 said:Balance patch hits and the meta is shifting. The odds of getting players trying out new class, builds or things they're not familiar with is high in LFG. Wait for the meta to stabilize or go with static groups. Sensed a slight of dejavu having this said sometime ago(?) :lol:.

Again this.

This is not a patch or meta issue. This has been noticeable as far back as December last year and earlier. I often take breaks of a couple of months and every time I come back the quality of players in T4 has surprised me in that it dropped even further.

@maxwelgm.4315 said:As for CMs, the groups doing those are smoother to run with but they are not without issues, and do not for a moment think that the people doing regular T4s right now are not going to eventually find their way into CMs without having improved in the slightest.

True but CMs are punishing enough (and PUG groups often fast on the kick button) that continuous failing will get people booted. While some might tolerate the druid covering for people's bad positioning, once you can't rely on him carrying you through avoidable damage combined with the lack of personal dps, CMs become a thing of futility for bad players.

I understand the complaints about new comers, random builds, descending skill. But what can we do ?It's simple : communication, adaptation.People whipe on final boss, so you'll leave, join another random PUG, do 10 minutes parkour, and leave again ? People can't even say "HI" when joining the group, so don't tell me people explain, or are "tired to explain", because it's false; I PUG almost everyday, at least W-E, I've been there for Observatory, Chaos, OT, CM's training, etc... no one ever explain me or to others the patterns, the mechanicals... no one. Okai it's T4, people should know a little about by the t1-t3; but difficulties, needs and bosses are not the always the same. I've been kick of Deepstone Fractal T2, 2 days after patch only because I ask at the beginning what we have to do. Really ??? It's shorter to kick than to say "Just DPS" ???Real problem isn't Beginners, it is communication in "HL". Or people are too proud to explain and join the beggars, or they have somethings to hide, because of the firsts. I don't know, but It doen't work.

Okai there is beginners in T4 we don't even know how they reach here, but there is also many auto-proclaim "skilled" gamers that just ragequit permanently or instakick. They come with generic meta build; okai if the others play the same and are awake everything goes well. But somethings don't go well ... errrrrrrrrr let's ragequit, Ciao noobs.How many "META ONLY" group I've seen, the mesmer or the SB couldn't even remove boons when "No Pain, No Gain", couldn't pull enemies with focus, no one could cleanse condi, druid change spirits for stone spirits, or two wars with the same banners (or no banner, at choice) ... And no one told them, and people left ... ????I don't know for you but I can change my skills, my specs, I can chat with my group; I can even change class. The generic meta build obviously are great when you play a generic meta compo; and again, even in raid there is a lot people full stuff, good rotation etc, that don't know what to do to the boss or their allies and they just wait that the boss standstills like the golem. We have to adapt, we have to find out what we lack of !We can ask politely people to pack or not, to take foods, to change builds for a particular situation, even if it's not their "role". People won't learn about their shitty build and the fractals needs if no one explain them. And if we ask you, it's not you're bad, you don't have to ragequit or complaint they're noobs, it's the need.

@"Zhaid Zhem.6508" said:I understand the complaints about new comers, random builds, descending skill. But what can we do ?It's simple : communication, adaptation.People whipe on final boss, so you'll leave, join another random PUG, do 10 minutes parkour, and leave again ? People can't even say "HI" when joining the group, so don't tell me people explain, or are "tired to explain", because it's false; I PUG almost everyday, at least W-E, I've been there for Observatory, Chaos, OT, CM's training, etc... no one ever explain me or to others the patterns, the mechanicals... no one. Okai it's T4, people should know a little about by the t1-t3; but difficulties, needs and bosses are not the always the same. I've been kick of Deepstone Fractal T2, 2 days after patch only because I ask at the beginning what we have to do. Really ??? It's shorter to kick than to say "Just DPS" ???Real problem isn't Beginners, it is communication in "HL". Or people are too proud to explain and join the beggars, or they have somethings to hide, because of the firsts. I don't know, but It doen't work.

Okai there is beginners in T4 we don't even know how they reach here, but there is also many auto-proclaim "skilled" gamers that just ragequit permanently or instakick. They come with generic meta build; okai if the others play the same and are awake everything goes well. But somethings don't go well ... errrrrrrrrr let's ragequit, Ciao noobs.How many "META ONLY" group I've seen, the mesmer or the SB couldn't even remove boons when "No Pain, No Gain", couldn't pull enemies with focus, no one could cleanse condi, druid change spirits for stone spirits, or two wars with the same banners (or no banner, at choice) ... And no one told them, and people left ... ????I don't know for you but I can change my skills, my specs, I can chat with my group; I can even change class. The generic meta build obviously are great when you play a generic meta compo; and again, even in raid there is a lot people full stuff, good rotation etc, that don't know what to do to the boss or their allies and they just wait that the boss standstills like the golem. We have to adapt, we have to find out what we lack of !We can ask politely people to pack or not, to take foods, to change builds for a particular situation, even if it's not their "role". People won't learn about their kitten build and the fractals needs if no one explain them. And if we ask you, it's not you're bad, you don't have to ragequit or complaint they're noobs, it's the need.

After break from GW for couple of months i returned to CM meta only fractals and problem is - total clueless people, who think they are best having no idea how to adapt to fractal. Even before eles would run wever only because "dps is better on golem" well shit, this isnt golem and this isnt raid, some bosses you have to move a lot more, because some retard cant stay close so boss doesnt jump all over the place. If anything, CM groups and "hardcore" raid groups know nothing about their classes besides copy pasting build off SC or whatever is guild of the half year for that time. Sometimes you need to run lower dps spec for more dps

It's the result of the playerbase becoming (aggresively) more and more casual. Many players promote not playing well, not playing meta and just jumping in anywhere until you learn. Most still don't make an effort when doing this to actually learn.

The players who end up doing all the work for them slowly but surely get fed up. Especially if this doesnt' happen once or twice but with half your group on a daily basis. It's quicker to ask for toxic requirements and do T4+cm's than to do T4 with a random group.

This also splits the community - as it should - more and more. Players willing to do high level play, do CM's and T4's together. The general population for T4 that remains are mostly the less skilled players. The few good players in these that remain struggle to get their fractals done in a reasonable time and eventually join the elitist group or quit; making the situation more dire for the remaining players.

If you want chill groups, make chill groups. If there aren't enough players that want to make chill groups; that's because not enough players want to put in the effort required to allow "chill" fractals. I'm sure it's chill and fun to join a fractal on whatever you desire; but leading a group that won't communicate, repeatedly wipes and has no interest in even learning what to do isn't.

The same happens in all other gamemodes. Openworld PvE is great and the style of play works nicely there; but it doesn't work for any type of difficult or instanced content. As long as players say they /must/ be able to play like open-world anywhere in the game, including instanced content, WvW and other areas where performance does "matter" - elitism and separation between both groups will increase.

I'm very OK with that. I'm pretty tired of having to carry players who don't respond to any questions but flame you if you exclude them.

@"Voltekka.2375" said:I have been doing T4 daily with pugs, throughout the years. Things were mostly fine, we did fractals without needing necessarily meta compositions or meta builds. The occasional wipe didnt bother anyone, really. Lately, however, I see a big difference in pugs. People who dont bother dodging, who dont use potions, who dont strafe to not get hit by the AoE, who just sit in the little agony AoEs and expect the druid or chrono to power them through everything, cause they "have to do dps, man, its your job to keep me alive". I have witnessed more wipes in the last 2 weeks than in the last 6 months. Do you have similar experiences, or is it just me?

The good players moved up a tier and seek "t4+cm" groups. Average skill level in "pure" T4 groups declined as a result.

@Feanor.2358 said:

@"Voltekka.2375" said:I have been doing T4 daily with pugs, throughout the years. Things were mostly fine, we did fractals without needing necessarily meta compositions or meta builds. The occasional wipe didnt bother anyone, really. Lately, however, I see a big difference in pugs. People who dont bother dodging, who dont use potions, who dont strafe to not get hit by the AoE, who just sit in the little agony AoEs and expect the druid or chrono to power them through everything, cause they "have to do dps, man, its your job to keep me alive". I have witnessed more wipes in the last 2 weeks than in the last 6 months. Do you have similar experiences, or is it just me?

This makes sense. The skill gap is just huge. The group is either great, or downright horrible.

@Eramonster.2718 said:Balance patch hits and the meta is shifting. The odds of getting players trying out new class, builds or things they're not familiar with is high in LFG. Wait for the meta to stabilize or go with static groups. Sensed a slight of dejavu having this said sometime ago(?) :lol:.

Balance patches and meta shifts are completely irrelevant, since fractal pug quality has been degrading for months.

There are good builds, and there are good players. Both not always corespondPeople joining with a pure DPS build, in hope there will be chrono-druid to buff them to heaven, but can't make a single change in their game because it's not "meta" (not the SC build), not their role, "dps decrease" (even if there is no DPS due to no players alive or buff) etc, they come selfish, braindead, deafness and mute to suggestion and explanation, hoping to get carry by a strong support/sustain, like they are in raids with a tank, a chronoboon,.. they don't deserve the "good player" title.As people joining with bearbow or soldier set war or other quirk ...

@Voltekka.2375 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Voltekka.2375 said:I have been doing T4 daily with pugs, throughout the years. Things were mostly fine, we did fractals without needing necessarily meta compositions or meta builds. The occasional wipe didnt bother anyone, really. Lately, however, I see a big difference in pugs. People who dont bother dodging, who dont use potions, who dont strafe to not get hit by the AoE, who just sit in the little agony AoEs and expect the druid or chrono to power them through everything, cause they "have to do dps, man, its your job to keep me alive". I have witnessed more wipes in the last 2 weeks than in the last 6 months. Do you have similar experiences, or is it just me?

That is the downstate of having no item progression. You cant make up being for anything by grinding out the next tier of equipment first. And sadly a lot of people barely put any effort in getting better (or maybe just get distracted by TV, facebook etc too easily? when i do group content I turn off everything else that could be distracting)

@Feanor.2358 said:

@"Voltekka.2375" said:I have been doing T4 daily with pugs, throughout the years. Things were mostly fine, we did fractals without needing necessarily meta compositions or meta builds. The occasional wipe didnt bother anyone, really. Lately, however, I see a big difference in pugs. People who dont bother dodging, who dont use potions, who dont strafe to not get hit by the AoE, who just sit in the little agony AoEs and expect the druid or chrono to power them through everything, cause they "have to do dps, man, its your job to keep me alive". I have witnessed more wipes in the last 2 weeks than in the last 6 months. Do you have similar experiences, or is it just me?

If only half of those "good" players weren't totaly horrible at game either.... Druid dies, down goes 2 more people because paying attention to HP bar is too hard. CM runs right now, are either smooth, or total garbage and it takes a lot of time to find people for them

@Bakeneko.5826 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@"Voltekka.2375" said:I have been doing T4 daily with pugs, throughout the years. Things were mostly fine, we did fractals without needing necessarily meta compositions or meta builds. The occasional wipe didnt bother anyone, really. Lately, however, I see a big difference in pugs. People who dont bother dodging, who dont use potions, who dont strafe to not get hit by the AoE, who just sit in the little agony AoEs and expect the druid or chrono to power them through everything, cause they "have to do dps, man, its your job to keep me alive". I have witnessed more wipes in the last 2 weeks than in the last 6 months. Do you have similar experiences, or is it just me?

My experience differs quite a lot from that. And I do them daily. It very rarely takes more than few minutes to form a group and it is extremely rarely for the group to be "total garbage". What kind of groups do you usually join?

I notice that if my fractal group are pack with new players, I can often get Ascended Chest at the end of the day (though I don't even need it). xD So please continue to pug, take it as a challenge mode! xD.

I guess it depends on how you look at it. I think some times carrying is fun cos you get to practice killing things low man when a few others are downed. Just not all the time.

For me its comes and goes. Sometimes you get players who can't figure out what keys to press, sometimes you get a skilled team that fly through the fractals. I haven't noticed any loss in skill recently. Although I would expect it sometime around now since we got a large group of players from the whole bless mess that happened a few weeks ago.