RECOMMENDATIONS for raid - Truth about raid toxicity (For new raiders)

Hi!I guess you are new to raids since you clicked on this post. I bet you already heard about all the toxicity stuff people say about raiding and sure there are some toxic people like in every other mode. PvP is very toxic for example. But a lot of people that scream "Toxic raid community" is just people that don't wish to follow the recommendations raiders give. If you do not wish to follow raiders recommendations, please do not enter raid. There isn't even problem with being new to raids, only just people have lost hope for all new people coming because very very few of them wish to do something in raids.Basic recommendations you should follow to pull your weight:Have meta build ready for raids - Meta builds are crafted by people that spend DAYS of practicing on golem different builds, sets and traitlines to give us best possible dps output build so please dont throw it into the bin just yet. If you want, you can actually check the build and when you actually read it and understand it, you will find that it is probably the best build, you just didn't have time to come up with it.Learn mechanics before you enter the raid - Like any other thing that has risk of failure, it is better you learn theory first. When you learn about all mechanics of the boss and how to counter them, then you check video how these mechanics are dealt with in practice, you have really good idea how everything works. Then if something goes wrong you don't panic and wipe the group for example, you might actually save it a be a hero that was in a right place in a right time.Whisper the commander: - When you have everything ready set and go, look for low LI groups in LFG. And by that i mean 100LI or less. Whisper the commander first and try to sell yourself. "Hi i have" this class " and i see you're searching for it, i don't have much LI but i studied this boss on mechanics and i saw a lot of videos. I also practiced my rotation on golem and i have decent numbers compared to benchmark. Would you be interested?". On this you most likely will never get angry response from commander and in like 50% of the time you will recieve invite. When you do, do not link anything in chat and try to blend in with the crowd. And when this happens, BE SURE TO BE READY. When you are at this stage, you need to know the boss inside out from videos and from websites with mechanics. Also you need to have your dps at the decent level. Basicly don't lie here. You can even add "1 fail and kick?".

These are the recommendations for raiding. A lot of people see this as elitism but they gotta understand that you have certain time on the boss and he has certain hp. HP/time is the REQUIRED dps you have to do to actually kill the boss. And since there are 4 support classes usually in the group, then 6 people have to meet that dps. And that dps is usually around 86 000 dps for 6 people in squad.

That's why people are angry, when you did all this preparation and invested hours in it and then comes person who never saw this boss, any of the mechanics, never heard of meta build and he does 2000 dps while taking agro from tank... that's just frustrating. And so many people are like this these days and want to raid. Bad part is that they go somewhere and call "toxic community" instead of improving and learning themselves.

There is level of tryhard and elitism sure. For my level of tryhard and elitism is someone grinding hundreds of dps. I myself am below benchmark for most classes by like 10% and i think this is completly fine. If you get to this point you will probably be very valuable asset in raid squads.

For builds, benchmarks and other stuff please visit https://snowcrows.com/ .

If you wish to get raiding guild for newbies, i can recommend The Crossroads Inn discord server, they make training raids and explain a lot about raids :) https://discord.gg/nZg52r3

For any questions u can also contact me in game :).

Disclaimer : This is my personal opinion!

I mostly agree, but not with learning a boss from the internet.

Videos can be a good starting point, and guides have their use, but in the end you actually have to play to learn. Expecting every player to be perfect the first time they do a Raid and calling them out when they aren't is the reason new players are so consistently pushed away from content like this in games. People can learn from a video or guides all day, but actually doing it is very different; they're going to forget things, they're going to make timing mistakes because it's their first time actually practicing the timing of dodges and blocks they only read about or saw in a video. Flaming them and excusing it because "you should already know this before you show up" is toxicity.

Now, they could start up their own Raid party with a tag saying it's their first time and they're new, but nobody actually joins those. I did that when I first started dungeons and Fractals to try and learn and get into them, and either I waited upwards of an hour for a full party, or people would join and act like jerks the second I did anything wrong or wasn't fast enough. I've seen players going through dungeons the first time get yelled at and people left because they didn't skip a cutscene, even though they specifically noted in the party description that it was their first time.

There is a point where players should be expected to play at a level that is consistent with the rest of the Raid/Fractal/Dungeon party, but it isn't the first time they've ever stepped foot into an instance.

@"CamoBadger.8531" said:I mostly agree, but not with learning a boss from the internet.

Videos can be a good starting point, and guides have their use, but in the end you actually have to play to learn. Expecting every player to be perfect the first time they do a Raid and calling them out when they aren't is the reason new players are so consistently pushed away from content like this in games. People can learn from a video or guides all day, but actually doing it is very different; they're going to forget things, they're going to make timing mistakes because it's their first time actually practicing the timing of dodges and blocks they only read about or saw in a video. Flaming them and excusing it because "you should already know this before you show up" is toxicity.

Now, they could start up their own Raid party with a tag saying it's their first time and they're new, but nobody actually joins those. I did that when I first started dungeons and Fractals to try and learn and get into them, and either I waited upwards of an hour for a full party, or people would join and act like jerks the second I did anything wrong or wasn't fast enough. I've seen players going through dungeons the first time get yelled at and people left because they didn't skip a cutscene, even though they specifically noted in the party description that it was their first time.

There is a point where players should be expected to play at a level that is consistent with the rest of the Raid/Fractal/Dungeon party, but it isn't the first time they've ever stepped foot into an instance.

When you fail once or twice out of 5 pulls, most people won't actually kick you. Especially when you have decent dps. Also let them kick you once or twice when you fail a lot and go back and check what killed you and why it killed you.People cannot expect to go and fail 90 out of 100 tries and expect everybody to be cool with that. Especially party that requires some LI (Which is wierdly some experience)All im asking for, is to study for the raid. LEARN before entering.I wouldn't let people fly the plane before they studied how to do it. After they studied, sure with supervision go ahead. ->this kind of attitude

@"Sweal.4659" said:

@"CamoBadger.8531" said:I mostly agree, but not with learning a boss from the internet.

Videos can be a good starting point, and guides have their use, but in the end you actually have to play to learn. Expecting every player to be perfect the first time they do a Raid and calling them out when they aren't is the reason new players are so consistently pushed away from content like this in games. People can learn from a video or guides all day, but actually doing it is very different; they're going to forget things, they're going to make timing mistakes because it's their first time actually practicing the timing of dodges and blocks they only read about or saw in a video. Flaming them and excusing it because "you should already know this before you show up"

is

toxicity.

Now, they could start up their own Raid party with a tag saying it's their first time and they're new, but nobody actually joins those. I did that when I first started dungeons and Fractals to try and learn and get into them, and either I waited upwards of an hour for a full party, or people would join and act like jerks the second I did anything wrong or wasn't fast enough. I've seen players going through dungeons the first time get yelled at and people left because they didn't skip a cutscene, even though they specifically noted in the party description that it was their first time.

There is a point where players should be expected to play at a level that is consistent with the rest of the Raid/Fractal/Dungeon party, but it isn't the first time they've ever stepped foot into an instance.

Oh I absolutely agree with that. If you fail almost every attempt you make then that's different. I'm specifically talking about the first time or first few times you do it. Obviously, you should let the party know "hey it's my first time" so they know ahead of time, but there are plenty of people who agree to let first-timers run a raid/dungeon/fractal with them and get furious when they fail. Getting at least some information before hand is great advice that people should follow, but it's a bit of a stretch to expect them to be experts even after doing that research.

I mostly agree as well: i only have 20 LI at the moment. But i cant learn by watching videos of things or reading guides no matter how many times i do. I learn by doing so i have to actually do them, the current raid group i roll with thankfully is fine with this, but it does help to at least review the raid before going in for quite a few people.

Yes because that's why everyone plays GW2, to be pigeonholed into Meta builds and a role! This is the problem that people like me have with raiding and why we consider it an elitist cesspool of toxic players, especially considering that you have guilds that are running GREEN equipment that have cleared the raids before, but nonono, screw you you will play and run the build that WE TELL YOU

Look I get that you are trying to explain to people what raiding in GW2 is, but most of us that consider raiding toxic already know, we know what the raid scene is about and we hate it

@thewaterguy.4796 said:Yes because that's why everyone plays GW2, to be pigeonholed into Meta builds and a role! This is the problem that people like me have with raiding and why we consider it an elitist cesspool of toxic players, especially considering that you have guilds that are running GREEN equipment that have cleared the raids before, but nonono, screw you you will play and run the build that WE TELL YOU

Look I get that you are trying to explain to people what raiding in GW2 is, but most of us that consider raiding toxic already know, we know what the raid scene is about and we hate it

Yes there are groups that run that in green equipment but those are people that cleared that raid hundred times and are all experienced with mechanics and still play meta stats and do meta rotation to get the dps output u need to actually kill it.I had same attitude towards meta, but after i tried it and started to ease through all content i can't drop it at any time because its just too good. All you need is to do is to just try it out.Also you are calling us toxic players, yet you have been the most toxic person at this post yet...

@"thewaterguy.4796" said:Yes because that's why everyone plays GW2, to be pigeonholed into Meta builds and a role! This is the problem that people like me have with raiding and why we consider it an elitist cesspool of toxic players, especially considering that you have guilds that are running GREEN equipment that have cleared the raids before, but nonono, screw you you will play and run the build that WE TELL YOU

Look I get that you are trying to explain to people what raiding in GW2 is, but most of us that consider raiding toxic already know, we know what the raid scene is about and we hate it

Then dont join it, make your own group, join/create your own guild or find/form your own static. Or join one of those green gear running raiders ;). Noone forces you to play with us so called "toxic elitists", but then respect our wish to play with others which have a similiar mindset like us and dont join our lfgs. Forcing us to accept a playstyle we dont want to play even though its our own group is actual toxic, not us searching for other metaplayers and kicking those who dont fullfill what we where looking for. Our group, our rules. Same goes for you. You want a chilled run? Make your own group (with a coorect lfg so everyone knows what you want), and kick everyone who joins and dont fullfill that.

And if you hate it that you must do this in order to raid....well welcome to a mmorpg. Dont expect other players to play the game for you by playing commander for you all the time.

As someone who raided for years in wow I can give you the only two recommendations that matter:be competent and for the love of god join a guild, the pug life miserable.

@thewaterguy.4796 said:Yes because that's why everyone plays GW2, to be pigeonholed into Meta builds and a role! This is the problem that people like me have with raiding and why we consider it an elitist cesspool of toxic players, especially considering that you have guilds that are running GREEN equipment that have cleared the raids before, but nonono, screw you you will play and run the build that WE TELL YOU

Look I get that you are trying to explain to people what raiding in GW2 is, but most of us that consider raiding toxic already know, we know what the raid scene is about and we hate it

Blame the game, not the player. Things like enrage timers (and the fact that killing a boss quickly means fighting it for less time which means less time/opportunity for someone to trip up and wipe everybody) makes meta builds an inevitability.

Raiders are not toxic, they’re merely playing an unforgiving and potentially very frustrating game mode.

It is like trying to fight a Dark Souls boss with ten players and if even a single one messes up, the fight resets. Which, sure, you could pull it off with all players being naked and using the worst weapon in the game if you have players good enough (raiding in greens) but that’s of course not something your average group should attempt.

Its for the YouTube highlight reel. :wink:

@thewaterguy.4796 said:Yes because that's why everyone plays GW2, to be pigeonholed into Meta builds and a role! This is the problem that people like me have with raiding and why we consider it an elitist cesspool of toxic players, especially considering that you have guilds that are running GREEN equipment that have cleared the raids before, but nonono, screw you you will play and run the build that WE TELL YOU

Look I get that you are trying to explain to people what raiding in GW2 is, but most of us that consider raiding toxic already know, we know what the raid scene is about and we hate it

When you can out perform these raiders in green gear with your special snowflake build, youre more than welcome to join my group. Alternatively if you have a winning strategy for a full group of bring your own build, I would be more than happy to oblige.

I see no sign of this changing anytime soon.

When newbies see the requirements in 'training' raids, for many of them those messages read basically "Must know the raid already before you can join to learn it", which doesn't make much sense for most people.

And so they will never seem welcoming to new players. No matter how much one tries to rationalize it, they will not see it like that. Many will be discouraged and give up before even trying to join such things, maybe try to make their own groups or just give up on raids altogether.

When you have a group of players who only want people who already has a degree of competency in the content and people who needs some time get acquainted with the content, basically 'throw some corpses at the boss', they will inevitably clash with each other at some point even if you have something like the fractal tiers.

Guides, PSAs, videos... that doesn't really work for most people when it comes to action-reaction content. There's time to think about what to do when you are playing Baldur's Gate. A guide can give you a build, and tell you what to bring, or what yo expect, but when you get in the action, there's no time to stop and think "Let's see, what was I supposed to do at this point now.... hm...?" when that green appears. You have to do. And there's only one good way to learn 'do' and that's 'doing'.

Most players understand that, but the way some people act makes new players think veteran player don't, as if they were expected to be absolutely perfect from the start.

Unless impatient players accept they have to slow down for new players, that new blood will be a slow drip.

@Oglaf.1074 said:

@"thewaterguy.4796" said:Yes because that's why everyone plays GW2, to be pigeonholed into Meta builds and a role! This is the problem that people like me have with raiding and why we consider it an elitist cesspool of toxic players, especially considering that you have guilds that are running GREEN equipment that have cleared the raids before, but nonono, screw you you will play and run the build that WE TELL YOU

Look I get that you are trying to explain to people what raiding in GW2 is, but most of us that consider raiding toxic already know, we know what the raid scene is about and we hate it

I don't mind being called toxic, because I know where the toxicity originates. We get thrown some absolutely absurd stuff because of bad attitudes from some new would be raiders. Last night I joined a vg lfg that said "vg, need chrono, 2 dps". I didn't care about the kill, just wanted to have something to do. I joined as chrono. The tag was talking and said he was chill, and literally said, 'I don't kick people'. Well of course what happens. 2 players join who literally don't even know how to enter the raid instance. The tag literally gave them step by step guidance to get to aerodrome and walk to the portal etc. Helped them with their builds, explained mechanics.

The tag explained things again and again, and neither of these players would listen. And occasionally even asked questions that were literally answered 2 lines of text above. How many nights of that do you think that tag can endure before they become a toxic elitist?

@"MithranArkanere.8957" said:I see no sign of this changing anytime soon.

When newbies see the requirements in 'training' raids, for many of them those messages read basically "Must know the raid already before you can join to learn it", which doesn't make much sense for most people.

If they do t4 fractals before they have a certain knowledge of instanced content in GW2. Are they able to beat t4s? Well that's good, they should be able to join a training raid. And in almost no cases you have to know about the raid when it is called a training one. Ofc, there are some lfgs like "Sloth - know mechanics" but that's one step ahead and not a training any longer!Also, raids are not made for players that reached lvl 80.

And so they will never seem welcoming to new players. No matter how much one tries to rationalize it, they will not see it like that. Many will be discouraged and give up before even trying to join such things, maybe try to make their own groups or just give up on raids altogether.

Like others will do on WvW or PvP. Some game modes are not made for certain people. This isn't a problem because different game modes (can) cater to different people. The intention behind raids was to hand out challenging content to people who want to play harder encounter. They weren't made for all the players by design.

@"MithranArkanere.8957" said:I see no sign of this changing anytime soon.

When newbies see the requirements in 'training' raids, for many of them those messages read basically "Must know the raid already before you can join to learn it", which doesn't make much sense for most people.

And so they will never seem welcoming to new players. No matter how much one tries to rationalize it, they will not see it like that. Many will be discouraged and give up before even trying to join such things, maybe try to make their own groups or just give up on raids altogether.

When you have a group of players who only want people who already has a degree of competency in the content and people who needs some time get acquainted with the content, basically 'throw some corpses at the boss', they will inevitably clash with each other at some point even if you have something like the fractal tiers.

Guides, PSAs, videos... that doesn't really work for most people when it comes to action-reaction content. There's time to think about what to do when you are playing Baldur's Gate. A guide can give you a build, and tell you what to bring, or what yo expect, but when you get in the action, there's no time to stop and think "Let's see, what was I supposed to do at this point now.... hm...?" when that green appears. You have to do. And there's only one good way to learn 'do' and that's 'doing'.

Most players understand that, but the way some people act makes new players think veteran player don't, as if they were expected to be absolutely perfect from the start.

Unless impatient players accept they have to slow down for new players, that new blood will be a slow drip.

Then how about it that every new players starts just as everyone else did? With no guides, no training groups, but also no veteran players that help them? Just like we did. What most players dont understand is that everything that is already done for new players is more then enough. When W1 released do you think me and my team got some helpfull advise from some veterans? Or could join a training discord/team/lfg? Heck we even had to figure out team comps first and which class can actual be used. But we killed the wing in the end, by wiping until we got it.Today, every new player has many viable builds to chose from, you can get guides (being them in form of text or/and videos) for bosses, teams and classes for EACH encounter, you have trainingdiscords and lfgs. IF you really want it to be even slower for new ones then it already is in trainingsruns, sry, but then people should just make their own groups like we did when they are not satisfied and wipe for days though every encounter just like us (which wont happen cause they will just give up when nothing is served on a silver tablet). Trainingcommanders are literally using their time and gain nothing out of it. The only thing you can ask from them is being polite when leading.And as Vinceman already said, fresh lvl80 players shouldnt even be there. Raids and high fracs are the hardest pve content. It isnt supposed to be able to just jump in and do it. It is a content where players should be prepared, not by default with boss guides, but people should be able to at least pull their weights with their class so that they can focus on learning the raidmechanic, which can be learned by trying to use your buildmechanics in t1-4 fracs and open world.But even fracs are getting worse, since it seems to me that even more players jsut skip t1-3 fracs by buying infusions and go into t4 without a single clue what to do.

If you are doing a new boss you are supposed to read some guides beforehand. There will be nice people that will explain it to you, and you won't understand nothing because a video where you see all mechanics is better than someone telling you a story about them. So you understand faster and you don't waste the time of the person telling you. I did ALL my first kills like this.

Knowing the mechs doesnt mean that you can do them correctly while also playing your character. That's where practise begins and the difference between an experienced raider and a newbie.Stop abusing of the goodwill of people and do your part. Raid is all about teamplay so when you are training yourself you should have done your homework. Try to win a soccer match without training your resistence by running by yourself. You will be out of breath after the first 15 min, how are you supposed to play with your teammates ?

The same goes for when you use a new class, even if you know the encounter. You first have to practise with that class. Stop trying to be leechers and do your part. You will be surprised by the amount of people that don't care about you not having 9999LI if you did your homework.

I am part of a raid training discord and we do not require any knowlage of any encounters. Spending 5 minutes searching for it should be ok since commanders will spend multiple hours teaching for free

I commend you for the post but you are literally preaching to the choir here. The official forums are a very bad place to welcome new players to a game mode because if you try posting in general it will get moved in here. Note how mostly veterans and people at least somewhat seasoned in raiding answered. Did you post this in reddit also?

@maxwelgm.4315I did not post it on reddit, maybe i should fix that

Calling the raid community "toxic" is the wrong terminology. Calling it "overly demanding" is correct.

It's not the fault of the raiding community that it is overly demanding, it's the game mode itself. When these new players join for raids, they end up recognizing how overly demanding it is and they take on a lot of social stigma while interacting with the raiding community. Some take the criticism and finds ways to fit raiding into their schedules, others decide raiding in GW2 is not within the limits of their dedication as a gamer.

Regardless, we're going on year 7 in GW2 and we want players to join and have fun while trying new game modes, rather than be afraid to participate in the community to begin with. Players should be careful of the words they chose to use while describing such a community, and the community itself should be careful of how they treat new players.

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Calling the raid community "toxic" is the wrong terminology. Calling it "overly demanding" is correct.

It's not the fault of the raiding community that it is overly demanding, it's the game mode itself. When these new players join for raids, they end up recognizing how overly demanding it is and they take on a lot of social stigma while interacting with the raiding community. Some take the criticism and finds ways to fit raiding into their schedules, others decide raiding in GW2 is not within the limits of their dedication as a gamer.

Regardless, we're going on year 7 in GW2 and we want players to join and have fun while trying new game modes, rather than be afraid to participate in the community to begin with. Players should be careful of the words they chose to use while describing such a community, and the community itself should be careful of how they treat new players.

this is why easier mode raids are win, less demanding, more relaxed and a pathway to the more demanding stuff for those that care.

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Calling the raid community "toxic" is the wrong terminology. Calling it "overly demanding" is correct.

It's not the fault of the raiding community that it is overly demanding, it's the game mode itself. When these new players join for raids, they end up recognizing how overly demanding it is and they take on a lot of social stigma while interacting with the raiding community. Some take the criticism and finds ways to fit raiding into their schedules, others decide raiding in GW2 is not within the limits of their dedication as a gamer.

Regardless, we're going on year 7 in GW2 and we want players to join and have fun while trying new game modes, rather than be afraid to participate in the community to begin with. Players should be careful of the words they chose to use while describing such a community, and the community itself should be careful of how they treat new players.

No problem as long as they are also less rewarding :P.

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@"MithranArkanere.8957" said:I see no sign of this changing anytime soon.

When newbies see the requirements in 'training' raids, for many of them those messages read basically "Must know the raid already before you can join to learn it", which doesn't make much sense for most people.

And so they will never seem welcoming to new players. No matter how much one tries to rationalize it, they will not see it like that. Many will be discouraged and give up before even trying to join such things, maybe try to make their own groups or just give up on raids altogether.

When you have a group of players who only want people who already has a degree of competency in the content and people who needs some time get acquainted with the content, basically 'throw some corpses at the boss', they will inevitably clash with each other at some point even if you have something like the fractal tiers.

Guides, PSAs, videos... that doesn't really work for most people when it comes to action-reaction content. There's time to think about what to do when you are playing Baldur's Gate. A guide can give you a build, and tell you what to bring, or what yo expect, but when you get in the action, there's no time to stop and think "Let's see, what was I supposed to do at this point now.... hm...?" when that green appears. You have to

do

. And there's only one good way to learn 'do' and that's 'doing'.

Most players understand that, but the way some people act makes new players think veteran player don't, as if they were expected to be absolutely perfect from the start.

Unless impatient players accept they have to slow down for new players, that new blood will be a slow drip.

I agree with that. Although you are very correct about the fact that veterans had to learn it too, there was a bigger pool of available players together that were willing to figure all these things out. Even if I wanted to do this myself, at this point, i would never be able to find a group of 10 dedicated players who have never done the content before and are willing to die and fail over and over again to learn the mechanics.

I do agree with your suggested path to do fractals first, starting from T1 working your way to T4 before starting raids. This should at least teach you the mechanics of your own class and how to evade certain attacks. I'm currently doing the same in fractals.

Maybe we can suggest players that their first character could be a support character instead of a DPS one? I think it's a tad easier because you are not that strictly bound to a fixed rotation and therefor can focus more on how and when to evade certain attacks. Furthermore: support characters are very wanted in high level fractals and raids and if more people would gear them up as their first character they could learn the mechanics without compromising the raid / fractals team too much.

For me personally, i feel like i'm still miles away from starting my first raid. I just don't feel comfortable enough, especially when reading all these topics on the forums. I'm currently comfortable enough to successfully do my dailies on T2 and i will continue to improve myself and my gear to get to T4 before even attempting a training raid.

@viperkesvp.7586 said:

@Xantaria.8726 said:

@"MithranArkanere.8957" said:I see no sign of this changing anytime soon.

When newbies see the requirements in 'training' raids, for many of them those messages read basically "Must know the raid already before you can join to learn it", which doesn't make much sense for most people.

And so they will never seem welcoming to new players. No matter how much one tries to rationalize it, they will not see it like that. Many will be discouraged and give up before even trying to join such things, maybe try to make their own groups or just give up on raids altogether.

When you have a group of players who only want people who already has a degree of competency in the content and people who needs some time get acquainted with the content, basically 'throw some corpses at the boss', they will inevitably clash with each other at some point even if you have something like the fractal tiers.

Guides, PSAs, videos... that doesn't really work for most people when it comes to action-reaction content. There's time to think about what to do when you are playing Baldur's Gate. A guide can give you a build, and tell you what to bring, or what yo expect, but when you get in the action, there's no time to stop and think "Let's see, what was I supposed to do at this point now.... hm...?" when that green appears. You have to

do

. And there's only one good way to learn 'do' and that's 'doing'.

Most players understand that, but the way some people act makes new players think veteran player don't, as if they were expected to be absolutely perfect from the start.

Unless impatient players accept they have to slow down for new players, that new blood will be a slow drip.

Depends on the support class^^. I would always say yes for Druid, but Chrono also has a rotation to keep up. The other problem is that most players misunderstand "support-class". For enough people, a banner-heal-tank warrior with shouts is a support class (well in same kind of way it is, but then you would need to build the team proparly, cause support is not = support). Here many got offended already cause they think they go tanky/support (even though you cant actual tank unless in some specific raid encounters), which is in most cases not a good class or build. Here some research about good support builds would also be needed.

Otherwise i can agree with you that most have a easier time first (unless they get into specific encounters where the supporters have to do specific mechanics^^).

To the matter of player avaible: if i take every single time someone declares that he cant raid/its to hard etc, i think i could by now have filled a discord server with1000+ players.^^

If you need some advices for training/encounters/classes though you can pm me if you are interessted. Dont have much time though work during the week, but on the weekend i can also run with you some fracs if you want(and if you are on eu servers^^).

@"thewaterguy.4796" said:Yes because that's why everyone plays GW2, to be pigeonholed into Meta builds and a role! This is the problem that people like me have with raiding and why we consider it an elitist cesspool of toxic players, especially considering that you have guilds that are running GREEN equipment that have cleared the raids before, but nonono, screw you you will play and run the build that WE TELL YOU

Look I get that you are trying to explain to people what raiding in GW2 is, but most of us that consider raiding toxic already know, we know what the raid scene is about and we hate it

If you're good enough to clear the raids in GREEN gear; go for it.The vast majority of players who insist on playing non-meta aren't at this level. They're barely or not capable of killing bosses with half the squad being experienced veterans doing the majority of mechanics and heavy lifting for them, on meta builds with ascended gear. That's the reality of low LI pugging.

Get a skilled raid static and run your off meta stuff. Make high LI groups stating "no meta meme raid". You'll get players and clear without any problems.Make a no requirement group saying "no meta required" without asking any verification of skill / pings / killing bosses and you get a massive clownfiesta that is most likely not going to clear any bosses; and half the players leaving within an hour.

You can go off-meta if you have the skill to make up for it. Most players don't.

It's funny to see players claim "you don't need much DPS to kill XX YY ZZ boss before the timer!!!" yet if you do 50-100 li sloth, half the DPS : can't even eat shrooms, can't stay alive for a single full circle, repeatedly tank every shake, regularly drops poison in ways to wipe the full group... By the time you get ANYWHERE CLOSE to enrage on pretty much any boss; half your squad is DEAD due to mechanics they failed miserably assuming it's not a full-wipe mechanic.

But hey; if everyone dies on matthias becauase they're literally incapable of dodging mechanics you can always 3 man it from 25%, even if you go several minutes into enrage so I guess DPS really is overrated ;)

Meta is overrated for skilled players. Most GW2 players aren't skilled; they're just barely good enough to get carried through the content. I bet they want to "experience the learning of raids" too; I mean guides and videos are boring you should be able to just play!!!! Yet they won't make their own group or commit to a training run, guild or discord cause "too much commitment". Not sure what they do expect.