Confusion should function similar to retaliation - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Confusion should function similar to retaliation

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  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 10, 2018

    Certain skills are just punished too hard by confusion, for example Healing Turret counts as two skill uses (detonate).
    Here, I predicatively used Healing Turret at half health to cleanse the incoming confusion spike:

    https://clips.twitch.tv/OnerousPlumpBatteryTinyFace

    Personally, I think that confusion should still be strong and punish the hell out of skill spammers, but why in the hell is it so bursty when you use ONE skill (a cleanse)?

    In my opinion, confusion should be like this:

    • Be greatly shifted away from per-skill procs and do a lot more damage passively. You know, so you have a chance to cleanse it.
    • Be more like torment in that, 50% of the damage comes from being on you, and 50% comes from the effect (moving while tormented).
    • (At the moment, confusion seems like, 15% from being on you, and 85% from the effect proc.)

    This way, you still destroy idiots who spam skills with confusion, and have more passive damage, but in return, you won't take 10k confusion when you attempt to instantly cleanse it with one skill.

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 10, 2018

    @Chaith.8256 said:
    Certain skills are just punished too hard by confusion, for example Healing Turret counts as two skill uses (detonate).
    Here, I predicatively used Healing Turret at half health to cleanse the incoming confusion spike:

    https://clips.twitch.tv/OnerousPlumpBatteryTinyFace

    Personally, I think that confusion should still be strong and punish the hell out of skill spammers, but why in the hell is it so bursty when you use ONE skill (a cleanse)?

    In my opinion, confusion should be like this:

    • Be greatly shifted away from per-skill procs and do a lot more damage passively. You know, so you have a chance to cleanse it.
    • Be more like torment in that, 50% of the damage comes from being on you, and 50% comes from the effect (moving while tormented).
    • (At the moment, confusion seems like, 15% from being on you, and 85% from the effect proc.)

    This way, you still destroy idiots who spam skills with confusion, and have more passive damage, but in return, you won't take 10k confusion when you attempt to instantly cleanse it with one skill.

    Before they nerfed illusion traitline and duration of every skill that inflict confusion its used to do damage + MORE damage on skill use and reverted back to what it was .
    Isnt you best engi or something ? From short clip there , you used heal before taking any confusion stacks ( usually picking up turret its like...a must vs condi classes?) You had 22 confusions, used detonate turret and rocket boots ,each skill hit you for ~4300 . (https://imgur.com/a/XvTbJb0 2 area healing ->your 2 blasts)
    What 10k confusion from instant skill you talking about? IF instant removal fail to cleanse , you get proc'd once ,if its cleansed confusion , nothing
    (Honestly I want mirage to be nerfed but simultaneously with other elite spec and be in line with them or make it second renegade so nobody gonna play mesmer xD)

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 10, 2018

    @Odik.4587 said:
    Isnt you best engi or something ? From short clip there , you used heal before taking any confusion stacks ( usually picking up turret its like...a must vs condi classes?)

    Actually, I did time it properly, as I dropped Healing Turret I had 13 confusion and 6 torment, right before the water field popped, here's a Screenshot as proof, notice no big blue water field & cleanse yet, look at my condition bar. It was PERFECT timing to cleanse 13 confusion. What happened was that 3 cover conditions came in in under .5 seconds later and got instantly removed instead.

    https://imgur.com/a/4lm8uTh

    You had 22 confusions, used detonate turret and rocket boots ,each skill hit you for ~4300 . (https://imgur.com/a/XvTbJb0 2 area healing ->your 2 blasts)

    Yup, tragic.

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:
    Isnt you best engi or something ? From short clip there , you used heal before taking any confusion stacks ( usually picking up turret its like...a must vs condi classes?)

    Actually, I did time it properly, as I dropped Healing Turret I had 13 confusion and 6 torment, right before the water field popped, here's a Screenshot as proof, notice no big blue water field & cleanse yet, look at my condition bar. It was PERFECT timing to cleanse 13 confusion. What happened was that 3 cover conditions came in in under .5 seconds later and got instantly removed instead.

    https://imgur.com/a/4lm8uTh

    You had 22 confusions, used detonate turret and rocket boots ,each skill hit you for ~4300 . (https://imgur.com/a/XvTbJb0 2 area healing ->your 2 blasts)

    Yup, tragic.

    Ye ,f2 caused blind/cripple/torment/confusion :anguished:

  • Trigr.6481Trigr.6481 Member ✭✭✭

    @Chaith.8256 said:
    Certain skills are just punished too hard by confusion, for example Healing Turret counts as two skill uses (detonate).
    Here, I predicatively used Healing Turret at half health to cleanse the incoming confusion spike:

    https://clips.twitch.tv/OnerousPlumpBatteryTinyFace

    Personally, I think that confusion should still be strong and punish the hell out of skill spammers, but why in the hell is it so bursty when you use ONE skill (a cleanse)?

    In my opinion, confusion should be like this:

    • Be greatly shifted away from per-skill procs and do a lot more damage passively. You know, so you have a chance to cleanse it.
    • Be more like torment in that, 50% of the damage comes from being on you, and 50% comes from the effect (moving while tormented).
    • (At the moment, confusion seems like, 15% from being on you, and 85% from the effect proc.)

    This way, you still destroy idiots who spam skills with confusion, and have more passive damage, but in return, you won't take 10k confusion when you attempt to instantly cleanse it with one skill.

    That damage could have been easily avoided in the situation you were in. Even in the worst case scenario if he landed all of his burst you had elixir S up, and it could have saved your life because by the time your invuln was up, the confusion duration would have already expired, leaving you free to heal without fear of killing yourself in the process.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trigr.6481 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:
    Certain skills are just punished too hard by confusion, for example Healing Turret counts as two skill uses (detonate).
    Here, I predicatively used Healing Turret at half health to cleanse the incoming confusion spike:

    https://clips.twitch.tv/OnerousPlumpBatteryTinyFace

    Personally, I think that confusion should still be strong and punish the hell out of skill spammers, but why in the hell is it so bursty when you use ONE skill (a cleanse)?

    In my opinion, confusion should be like this:

    • Be greatly shifted away from per-skill procs and do a lot more damage passively. You know, so you have a chance to cleanse it.
    • Be more like torment in that, 50% of the damage comes from being on you, and 50% comes from the effect (moving while tormented).
    • (At the moment, confusion seems like, 15% from being on you, and 85% from the effect proc.)

    This way, you still destroy idiots who spam skills with confusion, and have more passive damage, but in return, you won't take 10k confusion when you attempt to instantly cleanse it with one skill.

    That damage could have been easily avoided in the situation you were in. Even in the worst case scenario if he landed all of his burst you had elixir S up, and it could have saved your life because by the time your invuln was up, the confusion duration would have already expired, leaving you free to heal without fear of killing yourself in the process.

    Hindsight is 20/20, bud. I used Healing Turret as the confusion was being applied, and used only one skill after that, Rocket Boots. Using Healing Turret at 7.5k HP, cleansing conditions and getting another 8k effective health is usually enough to not be at 0hp, 1.5s afterwards and successfully disengage.

    Anyways, my play is irrelevant here, I still think confusion shouldn't be as bursty as it currently is, and be shifted to more of a DoT that also still punishes skill use.

    Look at confusion currently,

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Confusion

    25 confusion will tick for 250 a second, (LUL) and with 1200 condition damage, do 4163 damage on skills.

    Use it in game, it only hits 10dmg per stack per second. This part doesn't even scale off condition damage. It's pretty awful.. what I'm saying is that this should be where half of the damage comes from, and half from your enemy activating a queued up skill or two.

    25 Confusion with 1200 condition damage, I propose that should be ticking for 1250 instead of 250, a 500% increase through proper scaling, and each skill use hitting for 1250 instead of 4163. So confusing someone for 3s with 1200 condition damage would guaranteed do 3750 damage, and in the case they activate 2 skills, another 2500.

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • DragonFury.6243DragonFury.6243 Member ✭✭✭

    @Hot Boy.7138 said:
    Confusion and retaliation are essentially sister status effects. One is a boon, and one is a condition, but both serves the purpose of punishing enemies for attacking. Retaliation only stacks in duration, but confusion stacks in intensity. That makes confusion too strong imo because it affects all skills that does not cleanse it, even auto attacks. Some builds are able to build over 15 stacks of confusion in a single burst combo. It's broken. This would be fair if confusion did not cause damage from every skill that does not cleanse it, but it does.

    As long as confusion continues to affect auto attacks, heal skills, and even cleanse skills that fail to cleanse it, it should not stack in intensity. It should only stack in duration, similar to retaliation. And classes/builds should be rebalanced around that.

    If confusion will continue to stack in intensity, then it shouldn't affect auto attacks, heal skills, and cleanse skills even if it fails to cleanse the confusion.

    I expect a lot of backlash from this post, but this is my opinion. Confusion is too strong, and should be brought in line to the same level as retaliation.

    TLDR: Confusion should stack in duration, not intensity, similar to retaliation. Balance classes around that, or make confusion not cause damage for using auto attacks, heal skills, and cleanse skills.

    as much i like you idea but i dont think ANET will do such change

  • RabbitUp.8294RabbitUp.8294 Member ✭✭✭

    @Hot Boy.7138 said:
    2) Confusion stacks in intensity, doesn't affect auto attacks, heals, and cleanse skills.

    Seems fair to me.

    Like, I can understand cleanse skills, but autos? You don't want to be punished for brainlessly spamming 1? Because you absolutely deserved to be.

    @Hot Boy.7138 said:
    Confusion can't be compared to burning because burning does not punish you for using skills. Confusion can only be compared retaliation.

    All conditions punish you. Burning punishes you for not cleansing it by dealing damage every second. Torment does the same while also punishing you for moving, Confusion punishes you for spamming skills.

    Now let's compare the numbers. At 1000 condition damage, each stack of burning deals 286 damage/sec. With 15 stacks (using your original example), you will be taking 4290 damage/sec. For confusion, again with 1000 confusion damage, that's 147 per skill activation per stack, or 2205 per skill activation at 15 stacks.

    Just 1 second of 15 stacks of burning will deal as much damage as activating 2 skills under 15 stacks of confusion.

    If someone pays attention and tries to counter these conditions, cleansing confusion with 1 skill usage results in half the damage, compared to cleansing burning after 1 tick. So, the issue occurs when someone doesn't pay attention and spams skills, in which case they deserve to be punished and this is no different to not paying attention and leaving burn ticking; in fact, since it takes 2 skill activation per second to match burning's ticks, that person is most likely spamming autos, making it a purely l2p issue.

    Or it takes multiple skills to cleanse confusion, and you take damage from the previous cleanses. In that case, this is not confusion's fault, as this delay would also cause other damaging conditions to tick more times, resulting in more damage. Like we established above, if it takes 4 skills to cleanse condition away, you would have taken as much damage as only 2 ticks of burning, and if it took you 4 cleanses to remove confusion, then that most likely means you would have also taken at least 2 ticks of burning damage before cleansing that away. That is a problem with cover condis, though, and has nothing to do with confusion specifically. It just so happens that mesmers, who are the masters of confusion are also one of the professions that abuse cover condis the most, after necromancer, while burst burning is tied to guardians, who are the worst profession when it comes to cover condis.

  • ChartFish.1308ChartFish.1308 Member ✭✭✭

    @Chaith.8256 said:
    Certain skills are just punished too hard by confusion, for example Healing Turret counts as two skill uses (detonate).
    Here, I predicatively used Healing Turret at half health to cleanse the incoming confusion spike:

    https://clips.twitch.tv/OnerousPlumpBatteryTinyFace

    Personally, I think that confusion should still be strong and punish the hell out of skill spammers, but why in the hell is it so bursty when you use ONE skill (a cleanse)?

    In my opinion, confusion should be like this:

    • Be greatly shifted away from per-skill procs and do a lot more damage passively. You know, so you have a chance to cleanse it.
    • Be more like torment in that, 50% of the damage comes from being on you, and 50% comes from the effect (moving while tormented).
    • (At the moment, confusion seems like, 15% from being on you, and 85% from the effect proc.)

    This way, you still destroy idiots who spam skills with confusion, and have more passive damage, but in return, you won't take 10k confusion when you attempt to instantly cleanse it with one skill.

    That clip is disgusting. I saw that 19 stacks of confusion on you before you downed, how is that even legal.

  • Hot Boy.7138Hot Boy.7138 Member ✭✭✭

    @ChartFish.1308 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:
    Certain skills are just punished too hard by confusion, for example Healing Turret counts as two skill uses (detonate).
    Here, I predicatively used Healing Turret at half health to cleanse the incoming confusion spike:

    https://clips.twitch.tv/OnerousPlumpBatteryTinyFace

    Personally, I think that confusion should still be strong and punish the hell out of skill spammers, but why in the hell is it so bursty when you use ONE skill (a cleanse)?

    In my opinion, confusion should be like this:

    • Be greatly shifted away from per-skill procs and do a lot more damage passively. You know, so you have a chance to cleanse it.
    • Be more like torment in that, 50% of the damage comes from being on you, and 50% comes from the effect (moving while tormented).
    • (At the moment, confusion seems like, 15% from being on you, and 85% from the effect proc.)

    This way, you still destroy idiots who spam skills with confusion, and have more passive damage, but in return, you won't take 10k confusion when you attempt to instantly cleanse it with one skill.

    That clip is disgusting. I saw that 19 stacks of confusion on you before you downed, how is that even legal.

    was actually 22 stacks of confusion on him just as he went down. No much counter play to that. Some will still argue that is fair and balanced gameplay.

  • RabbitUp.8294RabbitUp.8294 Member ✭✭✭

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Trigr.6481 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:
    Certain skills are just punished too hard by confusion, for example Healing Turret counts as two skill uses (detonate).
    Here, I predicatively used Healing Turret at half health to cleanse the incoming confusion spike:

    https://clips.twitch.tv/OnerousPlumpBatteryTinyFace

    Personally, I think that confusion should still be strong and punish the hell out of skill spammers, but why in the hell is it so bursty when you use ONE skill (a cleanse)?

    In my opinion, confusion should be like this:

    • Be greatly shifted away from per-skill procs and do a lot more damage passively. You know, so you have a chance to cleanse it.
    • Be more like torment in that, 50% of the damage comes from being on you, and 50% comes from the effect (moving while tormented).
    • (At the moment, confusion seems like, 15% from being on you, and 85% from the effect proc.)

    This way, you still destroy idiots who spam skills with confusion, and have more passive damage, but in return, you won't take 10k confusion when you attempt to instantly cleanse it with one skill.

    That damage could have been easily avoided in the situation you were in. Even in the worst case scenario if he landed all of his burst you had elixir S up, and it could have saved your life because by the time your invuln was up, the confusion duration would have already expired, leaving you free to heal without fear of killing yourself in the process.

    Hindsight is 20/20, bud. I used Healing Turret as the confusion was being applied, and used only one skill after that, Rocket Boots. Using Healing Turret at 7.5k HP, cleansing conditions and getting another 8k effective health is usually enough to not be at 0hp, 1.5s afterwards and successfully disengage.

    Anyways, my play is irrelevant here, I still think confusion shouldn't be as bursty as it currently is, and be shifted to more of a DoT that also still punishes skill use.

    Look at confusion currently,

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Confusion

    25 confusion will tick for 250 a second, (LUL) and with 1200 condition damage, do 4163 damage on skills.

    Use it in game, it only hits 10dmg per stack per second. This part doesn't even scale off condition damage. It's pretty awful.. what I'm saying is that this should be where half of the damage comes from, and half from your enemy activating a queued up skill or two.

    25 Confusion with 1200 condition damage, I propose that should be ticking for 1250 instead of 250, a 500% increase through proper scaling, and each skill use hitting for 1250 instead of 4163. So confusing someone for 3s with 1200 condition damage would guaranteed do 3750 damage, and in the case they activate 2 skills, another 2500.

    So, you got hit by that mesmer's full burst and activated 2 skills under 22 stacks, for an 8k burst.

    How would it be different if a warrior landed their burst and you didn't dodge/block anything? Because 8k is easily possible from any number of power builds.

  • I'd argue retaliation is pretty weak and in need of reverting 33% nerf in PvP though. It's probably one of the most under-noticed boon in PvP and is only effective against niche build like P/P thief, which is also very much dead now so you get the food-chain effect. Sure retaliation is still strong for WvW group cleaves, but it is terribly underwhelming in PvP and I rather not see confusion in that state.

    And I'm saying this as someone who was testing radiant retaliation in guardian and consistently checking if the bug (which the formula never worked) is fixed every single balance patch, only to find out they never fixed it and decide to scrape the entire trait. If the formula had worked it'd hit around 400-600 damage per hit, making really interesting bruiser build in game with alternative playstyle.

    [RED] Crimson Sunspears...your small family guild since 2015.

  • Hot Boy.7138Hot Boy.7138 Member ✭✭✭

    @NICENIKESHOE.7128 said:
    I'd argue retaliation is pretty weak and in need of reverting 33% nerf in PvP though. It's probably one of the most under-noticed boon in PvP and is only effective against niche build like P/P thief, which is also very much dead now so you get the food-chain effect. Sure retaliation is still strong for WvW group cleaves, but it is terribly underwhelming in PvP and I rather not see confusion in that state.

    And I'm saying this as someone who was testing radiant retaliation in guardian and consistently checking if the bug (which the formula never worked) is fixed every single balance patch, only to find out they never fixed it and decide to scrape the entire trait. If the formula had worked it'd hit around 400-600 damage per hit, making really interesting bruiser build in game with alternative playstyle.

    Let's try to keep things on topic.

  • Arlette.9684Arlette.9684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I’m sure this has been mentioned many times before but...
    Having a condition that punishes you for playing the game is just bad design. Thus any attempts at balancing Confusion as opposed to either redesigning it, or straight up removing it are futile.

    Vae Victus!
    [Hcm] Promotraitor

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RabbitUp.8294 said:

    @Hot Boy.7138 said:
    2) Confusion stacks in intensity, doesn't affect auto attacks, heals, and cleanse skills.

    Seems fair to me.

    Like, I can understand cleanse skills, but autos? You don't want to be punished for brainlessly spamming 1? Because you absolutely deserved to be.

    @Hot Boy.7138 said:
    Confusion can't be compared to burning because burning does not punish you for using skills. Confusion can only be compared retaliation.

    All conditions punish you. Burning punishes you for not cleansing it by dealing damage every second. Torment does the same while also punishing you for moving, Confusion punishes you for spamming skills.

    Now let's compare the numbers. At 1000 condition damage, each stack of burning deals 286 damage/sec. With 15 stacks (using your original example), you will be taking 4290 damage/sec. For confusion, again with 1000 confusion damage, that's 147 per skill activation per stack, or 2205 per skill activation at 15 stacks.

    Just 1 second of 15 stacks of burning will deal as much damage as activating 2 skills under 15 stacks of confusion.

    If someone pays attention and tries to counter these conditions, cleansing confusion with 1 skill usage results in half the damage, compared to cleansing burning after 1 tick. So, the issue occurs when someone doesn't pay attention and spams skills, in which case they deserve to be punished and this is no different to not paying attention and leaving burn ticking; in fact, since it takes 2 skill activation per second to match burning's ticks, that person is most likely spamming autos, making it a purely l2p issue.

    Or it takes multiple skills to cleanse confusion, and you take damage from the previous cleanses. In that case, this is not confusion's fault, as this delay would also cause other damaging conditions to tick more times, resulting in more damage. Like we established above, if it takes 4 skills to cleanse condition away, you would have taken as much damage as only 2 ticks of burning, and if it took you 4 cleanses to remove confusion, then that most likely means you would have also taken at least 2 ticks of burning damage before cleansing that away. That is a problem with cover condis, though, and has nothing to do with confusion specifically. It just so happens that mesmers, who are the masters of confusion are also one of the professions that abuse cover condis the most, after necromancer, while burst burning is tied to guardians, who are the worst profession when it comes to cover condis.

    Keep in mind a you can apply 22+ confusion and 4 cover conditions with two skills in a 3/4th cast for one build, and applying 22 burning in PvP now takes an absurd amount of skills, time, and those skills lack cover conditions.

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    yeah dood just stop attacking, most confusion duration is low so yeah. maybe press one or two skills but no spam. same with torment. if you don't have to move then don't you will just kill yourself faster.

  • Thing is, making confusion like retaliation is just going to make it extremely underwhelming. And I'm showing that barely anyone cares about retaliation itself at this stage, only guards who use retaliation to boost their direct damage instead. Currently retaliation barely hit more than 250 per hit, and then we're talking about per skill use in confusion.

    Also the two things have fundamental goal difference: retaliation is consistent punishment ("dps" per se) through passive buff on self with no chance of missing where as confusion is burst in nature that must land opponent (as reinforced by recent skill/confusion change). I'm open to making the two goals align, but how would you balance a burst skill-use condition by making it stack duration? Tick 500 damage per skill? 1000 damage per skill? If too strong players never get to use skills when duration stack high, if too weak people breeze it off just like retaliation.

    Making it half-n-half in terms of dps/skill use is much better option, there's no reason to bring confusion down to retaliation level.

    [RED] Crimson Sunspears...your small family guild since 2015.

  • Trigr.6481Trigr.6481 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 11, 2018

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Trigr.6481 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:
    Certain skills are just punished too hard by confusion, for example Healing Turret counts as two skill uses (detonate).
    Here, I predicatively used Healing Turret at half health to cleanse the incoming confusion spike:

    https://clips.twitch.tv/OnerousPlumpBatteryTinyFace

    Personally, I think that confusion should still be strong and punish the hell out of skill spammers, but why in the hell is it so bursty when you use ONE skill (a cleanse)?

    In my opinion, confusion should be like this:

    • Be greatly shifted away from per-skill procs and do a lot more damage passively. You know, so you have a chance to cleanse it.
    • Be more like torment in that, 50% of the damage comes from being on you, and 50% comes from the effect (moving while tormented).
    • (At the moment, confusion seems like, 15% from being on you, and 85% from the effect proc.)

    This way, you still destroy idiots who spam skills with confusion, and have more passive damage, but in return, you won't take 10k confusion when you attempt to instantly cleanse it with one skill.

    That damage could have been easily avoided in the situation you were in. Even in the worst case scenario if he landed all of his burst you had elixir S up, and it could have saved your life because by the time your invuln was up, the confusion duration would have already expired, leaving you free to heal without fear of killing yourself in the process.

    Hindsight is 20/20, bud. I used Healing Turret as the confusion was being applied, and used only one skill after that, Rocket Boots. Using Healing Turret at 7.5k HP, cleansing conditions and getting another 8k effective health is usually enough to not be at 0hp, 1.5s afterwards and successfully disengage.

    Anyways, my play is irrelevant here, I still think confusion shouldn't be as bursty as it currently is, and be shifted to more of a DoT that also still punishes skill use.

    Look at confusion currently,

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Confusion

    25 confusion will tick for 250 a second, (LUL) and with 1200 condition damage, do 4163 damage on skills.

    Use it in game, it only hits 10dmg per stack per second. This part doesn't even scale off condition damage. It's pretty awful.. what I'm saying is that this should be where half of the damage comes from, and half from your enemy activating a queued up skill or two.

    25 Confusion with 1200 condition damage, I propose that should be ticking for 1250 instead of 250, a 500% increase through proper scaling, and each skill use hitting for 1250 instead of 4163. So confusing someone for 3s with 1200 condition damage would guaranteed do 3750 damage, and in the case they activate 2 skills, another 2500.

    The play couldn't be more relevant. If anything the clip you presented is hurting your argument, you're suggesting that the mechanic of confusion is changed on what? The fact that you blew yourself up? When presenting a case that a condition be changed in such a way there needs to be a better reason than "shouldn't be as bursty as it currently is". In that specific scenario there was an obvious tell to the damage you received, and the rest is history. With the amount of health you had vs a power mantra mesmer you'd be instantly dead before you even had the opportunity to do it yourself via 2 healing activations and rocket boots. I'd be more understanding if confusion had no counterplay but that simply isn't the case. Look man I think you're a great engi, but you got caught with your pants down. Just move on.

  • Every single mesmer warned those of you that wanted confusion to only deal damage on skill activation that you would be crying even louder if it got changed, and here we are.

    On another note I'm more than happy than some of you never set a foot on GW1, gwguru would have exploded from your nerfing cries on anything mesmer had back then.

  • DeadlySynz.3471DeadlySynz.3471 Member ✭✭✭

    @Odik.4587 said:
    On this forum you can find excuse for having any broken kitten in this game . As for complaint about confusion -> stop spam skills , you cant ? Too bad you deserved to die ;)
    Dealing damage while doing nothing(facetanking damage) and taking damage while spamming skills ? How its similar?

    I think one of the points they are making is, you can kill yourself trying to cleanse the condition in itself. It has nothing to do with spamming skills. Same with auto-attacks, why on earth have a condition that basically punishes you from participating at all (trying to cleanse and auto-attack). Is one supposed to just stand there like a punching bag while confusion runs it's course? Cleanse it? That's part of the problem, you can kill yourself trying to cleanse it.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 11, 2018

    @Trigr.6481 said:
    you're suggesting that the mechanic of confusion is changed on what? The fact that you blew yourself up?
    Just move on.

    Did you even read my suggestion or just assume it's a huge nerf based on the fact I dislike how bursty confusion is? As others in this thread have pointed out, using a cleanse and not clearing confusion hits you for another 4300 when that was what you were supposed to do. A condition that you should not attempt to cleanse is definitely a little odd a fit in the condition removal minigame. I'm suggesting to give confusion consistent, respectable damage instead.......... and in return, you should try to cleanse it ASAP, getting punished, but not by 4300 damage for each failed attempt.

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 11, 2018

    A condition that you should not attempt to cleanse is definitely a little odd a fit in the condition removal minigame

    Short duration unique condition with anti skill use purpose ,doesnt seems too odd ,especially with skills that cleanse up to 5/6 or all conditions at once

    I'm suggesting to give confusion consistent, respectable damage instead..........

    We had it before but since then they nerfed confusion duration and application from all shatters to only 1 . Instead of having confusion on every shatter we have all confusion stacked on one ,thats why its so bursty. Mesmer lost constant access to this condition through shatters. Fair trade?

    and in return, you should try to cleanse it ASAP, getting punished, but not by 4300 damage for each failed attempt.

    You died not because you tried to cleanse it but blast your turret twice (invul elixir up all the time, could use it any time)
    You let mesmer hit you with most dangerous skills(with 2 clones) thats equally same as letting hit yourself with DJ with malice/ sick em world impact etc . But instead of getting oneshot you have options : wait it out / use strong cleanse / ally with aoe cleanse /invul if you have, stop all damaging conditions / resistance
    Imo problem is that anet slapped every confusion mesmers had on shatters into 1 skill .With 3 clones AND axe 3 its destroy inattentive people that doesnt stop using skills asap

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 13, 2018

    @Hot Boy.7138 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Hot Boy.7138 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Hot Boy.7138 said:

    @Trigr.6481 said:

    @Hot Boy.7138 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @Hot Boy.7138 said:

    You can't wait out 15 stacks of confusion.

    When you see 15 stacks you feel need to spam all skills you see ready on your skill bar? xD
    Oh side note , mesmer confusion was removed from every shatter and put into f2 only . On top of that duraiton of confusion was heavily reduced ,like trait that prolonged confusion duration by 33%

    Yet, confusion continues to be an issue. Hence, I've come up with a solution.

    Nerfing something into the ground isn't a solution, or balance. You're better off making a thread about cleanse priority than coming up with a terrible solution, if you wanna call it that, for confusion.

    Cleanse priority is situational.

    Not everyone will like the idea of making confusion stack in duration instead of intensity. Seems fair to me and keeps the function of the condition. And I did list two conditions which would be better for confusion than the way it is live:
    1) Confusion doesn't stack in intensity, affects all skills.
    2) Confusion stacks in intensity, doesn't affect auto attacks, heals, and cleanse skills.

    Seems fair to me.

    This would literally make condi mesmers of all stripes completely unviable.

    I'm sure there will be other changes in the balance patch to keep it viable. Balance patches usually involve many changes that all work toward balance.

    You'd have smiters boon mesmers primary damage output which impacts the F2, Jaunt, Blinding Dissipation and Ineptitude, Scepter in it's entirety and Axe 3. That's far beyond the scope of a balance patch. that would require a complete rework of the class.

    And confusion is one of the most fair damaging conditions in the game. It does pretty much no damage as long as you don't attack into it. The mechanics of it are fine. My biggest problem with confusion is loading it onto instant cast stuff like Jaunt.

    Yeah, it would require a rework. I think it's necessary and could be done. The one consistent thing about MMORPGs is that they continue to change. Mesmers aren't the only class that has access to confusion, but it will impact mesmers the most.

    Okay so now that I have time to go into detail.

    1. I'm defensive of confusion in it's current form because I actually like the mechanics of confusion in it's current state. I like the idea that it's a unique bursty condition that does little damage but does most of its damage on skill use. I think the way power mesmers should be focused on a mix of phantasms and Mind Wrack, condition mesmers should be primarily focused around confusion as being the bulk of their damage in both PvP and PvP. It's got actual counter play to it, it's always short in duration and its damage when the sufferer doesn't use skills is basically zero. It's far more interesting gameplay wise than when confusion was balanced around doing solid consistent damage over time like bleed.
    2. Instances of confusion being over powered currently can be balanced by adjusting confusion stacks or duration on skills rather than reworking the condition to be functionally irrelevant as a source of damage the way you're suggesting.
    3. GW2's combat is all about knowing when to use and just as importantly when not use skills. When the game's combat system is at it's best is when all your skills serve a variety of purposes such as having skills that do big blow out damage, stuns, defensive abilities. You don't want to whiff your killing blow, you don't want to waste your defensive skills when you opponent isn't going to end up wasting their damage skills. Mesmers adding additional pressure on needing to know when not to use isn't "punishing you for playing the game."
    4. Having confusion not work on things like auto attacks, healing skills, and cleanses would make the condition completely worthless. Some classes like Spellbreaker, thieves, druids and longbow rangers, holosmiths in their photon forge mode, get a straight majority of damage of their damage output through autoattacks. Under a change like that you've effectively made several classes functionally immune to confusion as a condition.

    Now where do I think confusion is problematic?

    Well like I said before, I hate any sort of instant cast damaging skills like Jaunt. Another funny moment that's causing problems, was in an attempt to nerf Condition Mirage Arenanet rebalanced the trait that applied confusion on every shatter to applying all of those confusion stacks to Cry of Frustration. While this was intended to nerf condition mirage, it ended up being a stealth buff because now they only need to land Cry of Frustration to dump potentially lethal levels of confusion whereas before Mind Wrack and Distraction were important combos as well. This is half of why post rework condimirage feels sooooo bursty. Not only did confusion get tweaked to it's current form, but now they only need to hit you with one shatter to dump what was previously their entire arsenal of shatter damage on you.

    I think we've reached a point where I think both conditions and condition cleanses need to be looked at. Oddly enough, we're in a period where condition cleanses are actually quite overtuned. Most classes can throw off 3-5 conditions repeatedly throughout a fight. The end result is that the only condition classes that are even capable of being meta and killing other players reliably are classes like Scourge and Condition Mirage and to a lesser extent Condition thief who are able to throw out a wide variety of cover conditions all at once.

    There's a reason why things like condition guardians and firebrands never really caught on. Despite them being able to do ungodly amounts of condition damage, literally the most condition damage, and having plenty of healthy defensive options to keep them alive in fights on the virtue of them being guardians. Because they're so focused on doing damage through just one condition, burning, that unless the other person is asleep at the wheel they're just not going to be able to reliably slam down kills as more classes can easily just cleanse that one condition repeatedly and be fine.

    I think that in an ideal system for condition damage, most classes should be rebalanced around doing damage through two damaging conditions at most. I think necromancers being a class whose flavor is that they'll dump every single condition but in lesser stacks totaling similar damage to other classes makes sense for necromancer flavor.

    In an ideal system for cleansing conditions, smart use of cleanses should allow you to mitigate enough damage to come out on top against a class where as if their application of condition damage is done more intelligently than when someone decides to cleanse, the condition user should come out on top. Cleanses should in turn be rebalanced to have less of them and cleanse less conditions when classes have access to such wide pool of cover conditions.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • santenal.1054santenal.1054 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 14, 2018

    How many times per second can you proc confusion? 5 times? 10 times? Anyway, I think the potential damage is too high compared to the other damage dealing conditions that only can do a certain max amount of damage per second. Also, high APM builds get punished way harder than low APM builds.

  • Hot Boy.7138Hot Boy.7138 Member ✭✭✭

    The opposition here will say , "you died cause you spammed your skills." Which is actually quite wrong. You are taking massive damage from confusion even if you use two skill casts. Let's say confusion hits you just as you pressed used any skill, could be auto attack or anything. So then you get hit once right away with a massive condi tick. then you try to get for a cleanse, it fails, you get hit again for a second condi tick. Now's lets say you're fighting a mirage, the clones are battering away more conditions on you and if you try to aoe or cleave them down, you die. Don't, you die. Need to run, well you have a ton of torment stacks on you also, move you die lol. Casting 1 skill, or even 2 is not "spamming" skills. My definition of spamming skills is mindlessly pressing as many buttons as you can. You cannot even spam skills if you wanted to cause after a couple button presses you are dead anyway. Confusion is far too punishing as it is. It should not be stacking in intensity.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hot Boy.7138 said:
    The opposition here will say , "you died cause you spammed your skills." Which is actually quite wrong. You are taking massive damage from confusion even if you use two skill casts.

    And whose fault is that? The best condition mirage build in the game will have 4 seconds as the max duration of confusion and other stacks through Ineptitude last even less than that. If you can't slow down and stop using skills for 4 seconds, that's your fault.

    @Hot Boy.7138 said:
    Let's say confusion hits you just as you pressed used any skill, could be auto attack or anything. So then you get hit once right away with a massive condi tick. then you try to get for a cleanse, it fails, you get hit again for a second condi tick.

    Here's the thing. You don't need to cleanse the confusion. 30 stacks, which requires you eating literally everything they can hit you at once and not bothering to avoid any of it will do 3,000 damage. Just 3,000. For literally their entire arsenal of confusion damage. Cleansing the confusion is absolutely a mistake because it's unnecessary unless you were already on the edge of death anyway. This isn't like prenerf mesmer torch where if you got tagged you'd literally take 16,000 burning damage over four seconds.

    @Hot Boy.7138 said:
    Now's lets say you're fighting a mirage, the clones are battering away more conditions on you and if you try to aoe or cleave them down, you die. Don't, you die. Need to run, well you have a ton of torment stacks on you also, move you die lol. Casting 1 skill, or even 2 is not "spamming" skills. My definition of spamming skills is mindlessly pressing as many buttons as you can. You cannot even spam skills if you wanted to cause after a couple button presses you are dead anyway. Confusion is far too punishing as it is. It should not be stacking in intensity.

    You really sound like you have no understanding of how condition mesmers are applying their damage to you in the first place and as a result end up eating everything.

    This video will provide a lot of helpful information and is mostly still relevant except mesmers are running axe+torch / sword+pistol and Arcane Thievery instead of Signet of Midnight now a days. The primary fundamentals of the build are still mostly the same. And even if you don't run thief this video breaks down exactly what to animations to avoid when fighting condition mirages.

    @santenal.1054 said:
    How many times per second can you proc confusion? 5 times? 10 times? Anyway, I think the potential damage is too high compared to the other damage dealing conditions that only can do a certain max amount of damage per second. Also, high APM builds get punished way harder than low APM builds.

    Builds interact differently to other builds as a universal rule. I don't see why it's necessarily bad in this particular case.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

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