Spiteful Spirit? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Spiteful Spirit?

Spiteful Spirit: The area-of-effect damage inflicted by this trait has been split and will now use a 50% reduced value in PvP and WvW. Wow this amazes me, lol. It's almost like there is a need to nerf necro that deeply burns until that need is satisfied. Honestly, compared to all the OP skills out there why pick on this one? Oh well, as the great Indian chief told the President in the old days, " We shall strive to perservere". :p

Comments

  • geist.4126geist.4126 Member ✭✭✭

    Yeah, they may have read the forums and saw how much work it would be to nerf Mirage, Deadeye, Firebrand, Scourge, Holosmith and thought: "Ok, that's too much to do, just nerf core necro"

  • Acyk.9671Acyk.9671 Member ✭✭
    edited October 17, 2018

    Purity of purpose change, Anet wants this trait to be about boon corrupt while another is about damage, nothing complicated here.
    Also reaper in pvp could kill low hp target by just entering shroud. I guess they expect reaper to come back in WvW meta soon with WoD change.
    EDIT: It also added lot of damage on power scourge but they need to nerf power damage on F5 if they dont want power scourge to be a thing in wvw

  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2018

    It's OP in PvP...
    With the right build, the moment you get someone to below 50% health all it takes is to pop shroud and you can kill them from passive procs, what makes it more OP is the boon corrupt so it's a good thing that wasn't touched... That's more beneficial than a bit of damage.

    Not to brag, but I put together a puzzle in 4 days and the box said 2-4 years.
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  • GDchiaScrub.3241GDchiaScrub.3241 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Acyk.9671 said:
    Purity of purpose change, Anet wants this trait to be about boon corrupt while another is about damage, nothing complicated here.
    Also reaper in pvp could kill low hp target by just entering shroud.

    This guy gets it, so promote that man! It's an instant cast ability too essentially.

    D:

    RISE guild best guild super RPers trash blob guild [RISE] always dies on inc masters of the Die On Inc technique where Prince Jarvan just died.

    Holy Warriors of [Kazo] following Kazo doctrine guided by, Our Lord and Commander, Zudo in the holy Trinity of Him and his two firm glutes.

  • Ya I can see the basic premise, but don't agree. With the limited aoe it needed a good setup for the damage part, np just glad the retal and corrupt wasn't touched this time.

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sephiroth.4217 said:
    It's OP in PvP...
    With the right build, the moment you get someone to below 50% health all it takes is to pop shroud and you can kill them from passive procs, what makes it more OP is the boon corrupt so it's a good thing that wasn't touched... That's more beneficial than a bit of damage.

    That's a PvP only problem then. 90% players that either are to stupid or to bad to not fight necro on range.

    In wvw this was nearly the only good counter against thiefes.

    And to "oneshot" someone from below 50%. Very conditional. You needed spiteful spirit and the passive spinal shivers to proceed and crit at the same time.
    Or the enemy was just full glass.

  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:
    It's OP in PvP...
    With the right build, the moment you get someone to below 50% health all it takes is to pop shroud and you can kill them from passive procs, what makes it more OP is the boon corrupt so it's a good thing that wasn't touched... That's more beneficial than a bit of damage.

    That's a PvP only problem then. 90% players that either are to stupid or to bad to not fight necro on range.

    In wvw this was nearly the only good counter against thiefes.

    And to "oneshot" someone from below 50%. Very conditional. You needed spiteful spirit and the passive spinal shivers to proceed and crit at the same time.
    Or the enemy was just full glass.

    PvP is all glass since they removed all the defensive amulets so as for your "very conditional" comment, only condition to be met is "are they below 50?"....

    Not. A. Hard. Thing. To. Do.

    (Bonus damage points if they happen to catch someones random boons or thier own)

    Not to brag, but I put together a puzzle in 4 days and the box said 2-4 years.
    Please allow team queue with rewards again at our own discretion

  • Virelion.4128Virelion.4128 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2018

    Next they will nerf reaper AA. Gs 4 and revert some dmg buffs, then change quickness on shroud trait.
    Core necro will be even worse
    Power reaper will be slightly playable but without any ability to burst or live in fights.
    Scourge is in the gutter already.

    New expansion spec is coming?

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2018

    @sephiroth.4217 said:
    It's OP in PvP...
    With the right build, the moment you get someone to below 50% health all it takes is to pop shroud and you can kill them from passive procs, what makes it more OP is the boon corrupt so it's a good thing that wasn't touched... That's more beneficial than a bit of damage.

    Reaper's Onslaught and Death Perception is the problem and not Spiteful Spirit. This trait wasn't a problem for 6 years. Exactly like Chill of Death has never been a problem.

    ANet added shroud damage that everybody can easily avoid - even scourge can when he equips the teleport. But they removed every non avoidable damage. Tell me how can I avoid an immune to power damage warrior destroying me or a soulbeast or deadeye sniping me from 1500 range or a mirage that can only be damaged 10% of the time the fight lasts because he is evading or outranging me the other 90% or a revenant that does a series of blocks and evades while damaging, chilling and blinding me at the same time and then just disengages?

    PvP is all glass since they removed all the defensive amulets so as for your "very conditional" comment, only condition to be met is "are they below 50?"....

    So why was it nerfed in WvW? Where is the endure pain nerf in WvW? Where is the rev staff5 nerf in WvW? Where is the rifle damage nerf in WvW? Where is the longbow nerf in WvW?

  • DanAlcedo.3281DanAlcedo.3281 Member ✭✭✭✭

    As long as the shroud skill also effect the area around the scourge, it will remain op.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2018

    @Virelion.4128 said:
    Next they will nerf reaper AA. Gs 4 and revert some dmg buffs, then change quickness on shroud trait.
    Core necro will be even worse
    Power reaper will be slightly playable but without any ability to burst or live in fights.
    Scourge is in the gutter already.

    Nope, I'd bet on weakening shroud It's the last proc on necromancer that haven't been nerfed. ANet don't really answer the issues, they slightly tilt the balance with number tweak and hope that it will make players happy.

    New expansion spec is coming?

    Nope again, I think I've seen somewhere that after PoF there will be an x-pac break of 2 Living story season. Since we are still in the first it's not going to happen soon.

  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2018

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:
    It's OP in PvP...
    With the right build, the moment you get someone to below 50% health all it takes is to pop shroud and you can kill them from passive procs, what makes it more OP is the boon corrupt so it's a good thing that wasn't touched... That's more beneficial than a bit of damage.

    Reaper's Onslaught and Death Perception is the problem and not Spiteful Spirit. This trait wasn't a problem for 6 years. Exactly like Chill of Death has never been a problem.

    ANet added shroud damage that everybody can easily avoid - even scourge can when he equips the teleport. But they removed every non avoidable damage. Tell me how can I avoid an immune to power damage warrior destroying me or a soulbeast or deadeye sniping me from 1500 range or a mirage that can only be damaged 10% of the time the fight lasts because he is evading or outranging me the other 90% or a revenant that does a series of blocks and evades while damaging, chilling and blinding me at the same time and then just disengages?

    PvP is all glass since they removed all the defensive amulets so as for your "very conditional" comment, only condition to be met is "are they below 50?"....

    So why was it nerfed in WvW? Where is the endure pain nerf in WvW? Where is the rifle damage nerf in WvW? Where is the longbow nerf in WvW?

    We didnt have elite specs 6 years ago and aye aye aye calm down my friend, Im not Anet... I didnt make the changes or propose any but it does fall in line with the direction they have taken recently to reduce passive killing/life saving traits...

    Like I said, im just thankful they didnt touch the boon corruption part of the skill as that is way more beneficial

    (Curios how reapers onslaught or death perception had anything to do with passive damaging nukes? Did you mean to say that proc from spiteful spirit activates chill of death proc as the problem? Because stacking those 2 is mostly how you would shroud nuke someone, especially if they had any forms of boons up)

    I don't know if you were just grasping there or not but Spectral Pull would literally solve most of your issues you listed there.

    Not to brag, but I put together a puzzle in 4 days and the box said 2-4 years.
    Please allow team queue with rewards again at our own discretion

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:
    It's OP in PvP...
    With the right build, the moment you get someone to below 50% health all it takes is to pop shroud and you can kill them from passive procs, what makes it more OP is the boon corrupt so it's a good thing that wasn't touched... That's more beneficial than a bit of damage.

    That's a PvP only problem then. 90% players that either are to stupid or to bad to not fight necro on range.

    In wvw this was nearly the only good counter against thiefes.

    And to "oneshot" someone from below 50%. Very conditional. You needed spiteful spirit and the passive spinal shivers to proceed and crit at the same time.
    Or the enemy was just full glass.

    PvP is all glass since they removed all the defensive amulets so as for your "very conditional" comment, only condition to be met is "are they below 50?"....

    Not. A. Hard. Thing. To. Do.

    (Bonus damage points if they happen to catch someones random boons or thier own)

    We no?
    What about the power, precision, toughness, ferocity amulet?
    As I remember correctly there are still toughness and vitality amulets in-game.

    And if you run offensive amulett, maybe it's good to pack some defensive traits or skills?!!!!!!

    As I said dumb PvP players behaviour.

    "Mi,mi,mi, I got huge dmg from another class, that has no real defenses and no mobility, mi,mi,mi" said the rev that is easily able to oneshot (or almost oneshot) anyone.

    Necro has so few defenses, I can count them with one hand:
    1: 2 dodges that any class has
    2: protection from spectral armor
    3: shroud
    4: depends on spec, maybe nightfall (easy to counter) or infusing terror for reaper, for scourge its barrier
    5: you could count deathmagic, but the traitline overall just isn't good enough if compared with other choices you have.

    So a class, that has no evade, no block or invulnerability, what is it supposed to do, if it's not allowed to do dmg?

  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2018

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:
    It's OP in PvP...
    With the right build, the moment you get someone to below 50% health all it takes is to pop shroud and you can kill them from passive procs, what makes it more OP is the boon corrupt so it's a good thing that wasn't touched... That's more beneficial than a bit of damage.

    That's a PvP only problem then. 90% players that either are to stupid or to bad to not fight necro on range.

    In wvw this was nearly the only good counter against thiefes.

    And to "oneshot" someone from below 50%. Very conditional. You needed spiteful spirit and the passive spinal shivers to proceed and crit at the same time.
    Or the enemy was just full glass.

    PvP is all glass since they removed all the defensive amulets so as for your "very conditional" comment, only condition to be met is "are they below 50?"....

    Not. A. Hard. Thing. To. Do.

    (Bonus damage points if they happen to catch someones random boons or thier own)

    We no?
    What about the power, precision, toughness, ferocity amulet?
    As I remember correctly there are still toughness and vitality amulets in-game.

    And if you run offensive amulett, maybe it's good to pack some defensive traits or skills?!!!!!!

    As I said dumb PvP players behaviour.

    "Mi,mi,mi, I got huge dmg from another class, that has no real defenses and no mobility, mi,mi,mi" said the rev that is easily able to oneshot (or almost oneshot) anyone.

    Necro has so few defenses, I can count them with one hand:
    1: 2 dodges that any class has
    2: protection from spectral armor
    3: shroud
    4: depends on spec, maybe nightfall (easy to counter) or infusing terror for reaper, for scourge its barrier
    5: you could count deathmagic, but the traitline overall just isn't good enough if compared with other choices you have.

    So a class, that has no evade, no block or invulnerability, what is it supposed to do, if it's not allowed to do dmg?

    I have no idea what your issue is but like I said to the other guy, im not anet... Filling my tub with your tears wont accomplish much either

    The change is really mundane anyway, it wont effect people unless they were being carried by it... The boon corrupt is the most important mechanic that trait/skill brings to the table.

    Not to brag, but I put together a puzzle in 4 days and the box said 2-4 years.
    Please allow team queue with rewards again at our own discretion

  • geist.4126geist.4126 Member ✭✭✭

    Ok, let's see it as "Reaper is so overpowered in pvp" and accept this chance was necessary (which it imho isn't - i haven't seen more than one reaper in almost a day of playing pvp).
    1) Why isn't the nerf pvp only?
    2) Why are deadeye for example allowed to oneshot you in pvp? The argument "stay out of the reapers range" is the same as "just use your LoS" when you fight deadeye. The only difference is you always see where the reaper is while the deadeye is not visible most of the time
    3) there are a ton of abilities with high damage that are unblockable which get no similar treatment
    4) I don't see any justification for this in WvW. Has anyone here lost vs a reaper recently? On mesmer I kite his shroud, kill him (or moa him in shroud). Most melees just facetank or block the damage. As a range you should have zero problems vs a reaper if you aren't trapped in a 10x10 room

  • foste.3098foste.3098 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2018

    they nerfed it for the exact same reason chill of death was nerfed, and why Charged Mists for revenant got reworked: they want passive and no animation burst traits to be less effective.
    This trait was not exactly a passive proc but it had no animation, and no way for anyone to know when the necro will pop shroud and chunk you.

    As an aside i expect Primal Echoes for druid to get reworked as well since it is a hard cc with no tell in the same vein spiteful spirit is a no tell attack.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It will still be used by most people as the other 2 traits in pvp are very underpowered

  • Acyk.9671Acyk.9671 Member ✭✭
    edited October 17, 2018

    The truth is Necro will need more nerfs in WvW. The moment we can play melee again in WvW, reaper will do so much damage that Reaper's Onslaught and Death Perception will require a ferocity reduction.
    They should also rework Scourge a bit so you either play it as hybrid (not power) or condi support :

    • Standardize shade on a 240/ 5 targets, one shade at a time with recharge time tied to grand master traits (max 9 with all game modes)
    • F5: Add bleed or poison (all game modes), Reduce power damage and barrier by 25% ish (WvW only)
    • healing coeff should be more relevant for barrier
    • Rework "Sand Savant" to something more supportive like "outgoing barrier are X% more effective on allies and X% of outgoing barriers heals you..."
  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Seriously? Whats with the necro hate?

    Whats next? take away Damage and quickness? oh god no I better not give any ideas to ANET or they will gut reaper and make them unplayable in pvp and pve, because baddies wont learn to not facetank.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Acyk.9671Acyk.9671 Member ✭✭

    Necro hate? where? pve has nothing to do with necro in "competitive" game modes. Anet has realised this 9 months ago

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2018

    No it has because reaper was under performing before the buffs and now its going to get lobotomized again because baddies wont learn to play. People want reaper, a class with no invulns and very little stability, who is forced to eat blows and die, who cannot run away, have his damage cut down with a chainsaw. If you wonder why i'm hostile towards Acyk, is because I cannot take him seriously. Reaper has no mobility and no way to avoid damage such as mobility or invulns, so shroud gets destroyed fast. if they have no damage, then the sacrifice of damage becomes non existent. You might as well just delete necromancers from the game.

    Any real discussion begins with balancing ideas. Balancing isn't just nerfing something with a hammer, because that might just unbalance things. Balance is a lot finer, and involves fine tuning something so it feels fair as well for the class that is being tuned, and not just for the convenience of other classes. Say for instance, if you cut off the arms and legs and thus gut reaper by taking away its damage, it becomes a free kill class, and how would that be fair? Reaper is already too hard countered by some classes because of the lack of invulns, and now with the nerf to damage its even harder countered, and he wants to gut reapers.

    How about this:

    First before nerfing reaper anymore, nerf:

    Holosmith, nerf it hard.

    Warriors:Too much sustain and damage.
    Thief:Nerf Deadeye damage.
    Mirage:They need a lot more nerfs to be balanced. mesmers in general hit too hard and have too much mobility and sustain, and its way broken.
    Soulbeast:Insane dmg and sustain combined nerf it.

    A lot of them have more sustain. Its not balanced if one class is hard countered by every class, and nerfing them might make them hard countered by everything, and as I said: This is not a 1 side conversation to be had with necros or any compromise will be made.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Acyk.9671Acyk.9671 Member ✭✭
    edited October 17, 2018

    I am answering to other people complaining about other classes not being nerfed and giving example of where it could be nerfed. I talk about WvW as Massive PvP openfield (10+ to zerg) not roaming. Balance is about every class but we are in a Necro section so i talk about Necro. (I'll pass on your attitude this time and develop so you understand)

    Reaper not being meta has nothing to do with damage output but its inability to be reliable in melee because of WoD and scourge (low stab output).
    Reaper does way more damage than scourge on dps meter by a large margin. Not having mobility in group isn't a handicap since Swiftness and Super speed are provided by every other meta classes.

    Rework scourge to not be played as power but more as a hybrid damage dealer, directly or with corrupt, or full condi + support. This way you don't end up with 20 scourges in every optimized squad that can deal power+ condi damage + corrupt + provide high barrier. They would have to spec more.

    WoD has been nerfed but it's not enough. Nerf radius from 360 to 300 (lower cast time) and lesser endure pain to 3 sec. This will stop groups from pirate shipping for 90% of the time and rely heavily on 3/4 spellbreakers to chain their bubble to finally initiate a movement that will result on a single push. It's unhealthy for the game mode.

    After this, melee specs like reaper/holo/tempest can return in meta. Once its done, Reaper damage MIGHT BECOME a problem and MIGHT NEED a small reduction to its ferocity in shroud. It doesn't mean that it's necessary or that other classes should stay the way they are, of course holosmith needs its CC/damage to be nerfed.

    Thief/Mirage should have been nerfed when POF came out, but it's purely roaming/pvp. I don't need to be convinced about this, they are cancerous.
    Soulbeast could use some tweaks to have a spot in group even if the lack of reliable weapons is a major problem (dagger wasn't a good idea for WvW).

  • @foste.3098 said:
    they nerfed it for the exact same reason chill of death was nerfed, and why Charged Mists for revenant got reworked: they want passive and no animation burst traits to be less effective.
    This trait was not exactly a passive proc but it had no animation, and no way for anyone to know when the necro will pop shroud and chunk you.

    As an aside i expect Primal Echoes for druid to get reworked as well since it is a hard cc with no tell in the same vein spiteful spirit is a no tell attack.

    I totally get the first part and I think it's also the reason sigil of hydro/geo and air/blood etc got removed from PvP a while ago. Like I love using SS and it is so potent because it's instant cast aoe 2-4 boon corrupt. I wouldn't care if they made it do zero power damage (actually I would because if it did zero then plague sending would be slightly harder to proc so like... 0.001 coeff would be fine by me). It would still be amazing for what it does. But if Anet wants to reduce the passive/no animation stuff, damage reduction is not the way to go. They should give it the enfeeble/weakening shroud treatment. Both are GM traits that corrupts boons in an aoe when entering shroud but enfeeble has an animation cast time while entering shroud. Don't give it 2 seconds though. Like both traits should have a 0.5-1 second delay on the damage. Maybe different timing on both GMs so that if you take both, someone can only dodge one before getting hit by the other. If Anet wants to reduce no animation bursts, keep the old damage numbers on SS but make the change that gives actual fair counter play.

    I never expected anyone to talk about primal echo for PvP since DC is so much better in PvP but yes, it follows the same logic that it doesn't have much counter play and should be changed.

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2018

    @Acyk.9671 said:
    I am talking about WvW as Massive PvP openfield (10+ to zerg) not roaming. Balance is about every class but we are in a Necro section so i talk about Necro. (I'll pass on your attitude this time and develop so you understand)

    Reaper not being meta has nothing to do with damage output but its inability to be reliable in melee because of WoD and scourge (low stab output).
    Reaper does way more damage than scourge on dps meter by a large margin. Not having mobility in group isn't a handicap since Swiftness and Super speed are provided by every other meta classes.

    Rework scourge to not be played as power but more as a hybrid damage dealer, directly or with corrupt, or full condi + support. This way you don't end up with 20 scourges in every optimized squad that can deal power+ condi damage + corrupt + provide high barrier. They would have to spec more.

    WoD has been nerfed but it's not enough. Nerf radius from 360 to 300 (lower cast time) and lesser endure pain to 3 sec. This will stop groups from pirate shipping for 90% of the time and rely heavily on 3/4 spellbreakers to chain their bubble to finally initiate a movement that will result on a single push. It's unhealthy for the game mode.

    After this, melee specs like reaper/holo/tempest can return in meta. Once its done, Reaper damage MIGHT BECOME a problem and MIGHT NEED a small reduction to its ferocity in shroud. It doesn't mean that it's necessary or that other classes should stay the way they are, of course holosmith needs its CC/damage to be nerfed.

    Thief/Mirage should have been nerfed when POF came out, but it's purely roaming/pvp. I don't need to be convinced about this, they are cancerous.
    Soulbeast could use some tweaks to have a spot in group even if the lack of reliable weapons is a major problem (dagger wasn't a good idea for WvW).

    The problem is though Scourge has the problem of being a aoe spec. You were talking about reaper, and scourge is already viable in WVW and dominates in group content due to aoe bombing, and I think scourge has more sustain than reaper anyways, since you got huge amount of condi corrupt on call plus the barrier, and a lot of your attacks have more range.

    In Roaming though Reaper still has the issue of lack of sustain outside of reaper shroud, making them easy prey.

    The compensation is needed for reaper to be viable in spvp group play, since they struggle to be viable as solo roamers due to lack of sustain outside shroud, and in shroud its so short, that without a firebrand next to you or some form of support with heal, you will get destroyed.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Acyk.9671Acyk.9671 Member ✭✭
    edited October 17, 2018

    Reaper was redesigned to be able to apply a lot of pressure on specific area or burst down allies quickly in shroud with that same shroud also serving defensive purpose as a "double life"; And then you have high CD utilities from necro to allow you to recharge your shroud (Its defensive abilities don't matter in teamplay WvW).
    You complained about me explaining that reaper could see more nerfs to its offensive capabilities. Well Reaper is OP in its bursting/damage abilities, that's the truth.
    Its sustain could be improved but what you depict comes more from the powercreep of other classes than reaper itself. Sure it wouldn't hurt to have a small buff to this aspect but as stated previously necro isn't a duelist kind of class. It's a "hit hard, high pressure, low defense". I would rather have the overall powercreep nerfed than buffing every lacking class in "competitive" game mode.

    EDIT: allow healing through shroud or sacrificing remaining life force for health, that would help a lot to sustain damage

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2018

    The problem is: Reaper's damage is already counterable and having high burst is necessary for where it is. If it can't deal damage, it cannot pressure, and thus it becomes non meta for pvp. I understand reaper hurts a lot, but you can cc him and he is slow.

    A lot of things would need a overhaul as well in necro to make it viable enough for longer fights, because less damage means longer fights, longer fights mean more necessity of sustain, because reaper sacrificed sustain.

    You want to lower damage of this era to heart of thorns, that would be nice actually, but you also need mechanics to make it viable as a group control of enemies.

    Thing is: I am legit worried that reaper will be gutted no other class will be nerfed, and reaper and necro in general will be back in the trash bin.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Acyk.9671Acyk.9671 Member ✭✭
    edited October 17, 2018

    Because you see this from a kinda 1v1 pvp/roaming perspective. My example was about group where melee spec can be reliably used in WvW (nerf of scourge and WoD) where +600 ferocity is too much. In HOT, reaper was high pressure game play, now its high burst. I am sure a middle ground can be found
    If Anet made it for example +250/+250 or +200/+300 and quickness on entering shroud, it would have been better imo. I don't know what is their thought process toward death perception and core necro but it makes F5 scourge too powerful and allows power scourge in WvW (which is bad when you have access to so much corrupt and barrier at the same time). Anet's nerf on Spiteful spirit balances this death perception change while solely making it about boon corrupt.
    I edited previous comment with this:
    EDIT: allow healing through shroud or sacrificing remaining life force for health, that would help a lot to sustain damage

    Well, if you let new specs be 10x better than previous ones, it creates too much imbalance...
    I don't understand what you mean by "group control of enemies" ??

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Group of enemy players. Reapers are made for collaborating in pressuring enemies to get off a point. They do not possess the necessary sustain to roam, nor the mobility to escape bad situations. Quickness is more of a thing for catching enemies.

    Changes of pvp can also have severe consequences on pvp, and changing how skills work could break a class in pve if not careful.Reaper is still weaker Than every pure dps class out there.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Acyk.9671Acyk.9671 Member ✭✭
    edited October 17, 2018

    Yes i get your point but i don't think you understand my hypothetical point.
    Each elite spec is approximately made the same way:
    -1 trait line is about replacing/ giving alternative to core "elite" spec (soul reaping for necro)
    - 1 trait line enhance/ replace a spec (first trait line of reaper is tied to blood magic/personal sustain)
    - 1 trait line is new mechanic or replace/enhance an existing spec ( middle trait line of reaper is tied to spite)

    In solo content you will most likely chose a spec that is different from your elite spec trait line, that's what Anet expects from you (you still have some room though). So almost no chance you pick both Soul Reaping for Death Perception and Reaper's Onslaught at the same time.
    For example if you pick Reaper's Onslaught trait line in reaper (last one tied to soul reaping), you will pick specs like Blood Magic and Spite to have some damage/sustain/corrupt.

    In group content, you pick a class as what's best at, you are a role. So if firebrand/chrono/scrapper take care of sustain role you can specialize Reaper as full damage + corrupt where you would pick both death perception and Reaper's Onslaught + Spite spec line. Blood magic only becomes a choice if increasing group damage/sustain is more efficient than optimizing your own personal damage (Pve Raid being the extreme). It is a real balance problem that's why I said reaper might need a ferocity nerf in WvW. You can keep +300/+300 ferocity for pvp and pve.

    • They change inherent skills/traits from elite spec while keeping core mostly untouched so it doesn't become OP (keep Death perception/ nerf Reaper's Onslaught)
    • They understand group play equals specialization and they nerf/buff what's problematic in specific game mode. (nerf +300/+300 TO +250/+250)
    • They nerf Core, nerfing every spec at the same time in specific game mode but that depends if Anet wants elite specs to be straight upgrades to core or if it's a supplement (nerf death perception/ keep reaper's onslaught)
  • Come to think of it, I wonder if I caused this nerf last week. We had an anet player on HoD BL and I took him and 2 others out at swc sentry, then killed him at least 3 more times. Or maybe that's just a little arrogant to consider. :p

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Acyk.9671 said:
    Yes i get your point but i don't think you understand my hypothetical point.
    Each elite spec is approximately made the same way:
    -1 trait line is about replacing/ giving alternative to core "elite" spec (soul reaping for necro)
    - 1 trait line enhance/ replace a spec (first trait line of reaper is tied to blood magic/personal sustain)
    - 1 trait line is new mechanic or replace/enhance an existing spec ( middle trait line of reaper is tied to spite)

    I disagree with your statement here. Core spec will always be available to the professions, which mean that they will automatically stack with e-specs. You can't imagine an e-spec that replace those specs because it's obvious that if you design an e-spec like that you will make the spec that it replace almost mandatory to take in order to stack the bonus and lean toward an extrem that will outperform everything else. In essence your theoretical point would only lead to a loss of build diversity which isn't the point of the e-specs.

    In solo content you will most likely chose a spec that is different from your elite spec trait line, that's what Anet expects from you (you still have some room though). So almost no chance you pick both Soul Reaping for Death Perception and Reaper's Onslaught at the same time.

    Nope. In solo content (open PvE/LS instance) you'll play the most effective build 9 time out of 10 because in GW2 the best defense is offense. And it's unfortunately especially true for the necromancer. Most of the time the defensive trait are there to satisfy PvP purpose.

    For example if you pick Reaper's Onslaught trait line in reaper (last one tied to soul reaping), you will pick specs like Blood Magic and Spite to have some damage/sustain/corrupt.

    You won't, really... Blood magic will mostly favor grouplay, as long as there is more damage loaded in another traitline, this traitline will be disregard in solo content. The sustain in solo content isn't something that players will naturally seek.

    In group content, you pick a class as what's best at, you are a role. So if firebrand/chrono/scrapper take care of sustain role you can specialize Reaper as full damage + corrupt where you would pick both death perception and Reaper's Onslaught + Spite spec line. Blood magic only becomes a choice if increasing group damage/sustain is more efficient than optimizing your own personal damage (Pve Raid being the extreme). It is a real balance problem that's why I said reaper might need a ferocity nerf in WvW. You can keep +300/+300 ferocity for pvp and pve.

    The issue is that your theory relie on a basis where the reaper is dealing massively more damage than other profession when in fact the reaper, even with it's 600 ferocity buff can't even dream of reaching the damage potential of other professions.

    In reality, the real issue isn't ferocity, I'll even go as far as saying that the 600 ferocity buff is totally fine. The real issue is where half the ferocity buff is. The problem is that a trait with 33% crit chance also grant 300 point of ferocity. The 300 ferocity need to go elsewhere, ideally they change/remove dhuumfire which is also a problem child and put the 300 ferocity there.

    Honnestly, the issue isn't the ferocity numbers or even the damage that the reaper can dish out. The issue is that the reaper is at the point where he don't need to gear himself toward damage to deal damage.

    And in case of spiteful spirit nerf, the issue is that ANet really want to push onto the necromancer a design where procs lead to other procs which end up in a mess for both Condi spec and Power specs. The issue isn't damage it's the way the necromancer is designed from head to toes. This design is bound to create situationnal "imbalance" when playing against players and at the same time it is also bound to have low effectiveness in PvE situations.

    At this point, unless there is a full revamp of all necromancer's trait and a rework of it's defensive mechanism, PvPers will always perceive the necromancer as OP despite being at the bottom of the barrel in damage, support and, ironically, defense (the defense of a necromancer isn't great, it can't match the potential defense of any other profession. It's just a bunch of limited health points where other professions can nullify an unlimited amount of damage.)

    So, in essence, while I can't agree with your analysis, I agree that there is a lot of work needed on the necromancer in order for him to stop being seen as an OP profession by other professions when he is pit against them.

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 18, 2018

    Reaper is simple: Marauder/Demolisher Spite/SR/Reaper is the most effective basis and this basis means: BURST! End of story.

    If you want to mess around with Blood Magic or Curses: go for Scourge or even Core. Reaper does not offer viable variation in its playstyle. Offensive Blood Magic (dagger, warhorn, condi celanse) cripples the damage and defensive Blood Magic (heal, revive) misses the point as the spec is all about melee pressure. Curses wastes a whole traitline for weakness and a few more unreliable (because of the delayed impact of RS2 and WS) corrupts. Death Magic is not worth mentioning.

    On that Reaper base build your chances against various encounters are for 100% determined by the mix of your 3 utility skills:
    Spellbreaker: Corrupt Boon, Spectral Armor, Spectral Walk
    Condi Mesmer: Suffer!, Well of Power, Plague Signet (yes you need that overkill in condi cleanse, but then you will succeed)
    Guardian: NCSY!, Spectral Armor, Spectral Walk
    ...
    Exception: open field hardcounters: LB-Ranger, Rifle-Deadeye: break LOS or die!

    That's the only positive thing I can say about Reaper these days: Utility skills are game changers! So technically we have options. The QoL change in the last balance patch that lets us change utility skills when they are on cooldown were great in this context. I have to change my utility skills every few minutes to pull an acceptable amount of competitiveness out of the spec.

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @foste.3098 said:
    they nerfed it for the exact same reason chill of death was nerfed, and why Charged Mists for revenant got reworked: they want passive and no animation burst traits to be less effective.
    This trait was not exactly a passive proc but it had no animation, and no way for anyone to know when the necro will pop shroud and chunk you.

    As an aside i expect Primal Echoes for druid to get reworked as well since it is a hard cc with no tell in the same vein spiteful spirit is a no tell attack.

    You will also have no clue, if an invisible Charakter Like thief is coming to oneshot backstab you. That's really no argument.

  • Milan.9035Milan.9035 Member ✭✭✭

    "The issue is that your theory relie on a basis where the reaper is dealing massively more damage than other profession when in fact the reaper, even with it's 600 ferocity buff can't even dream of reaching the damage potential of other professions."

    Speaking just in pvp i believe no one come close to the burst a reqper can do. You can jump on a point and drop 14k aoe on everyone very easy. I cant even imagine the numbers you can do with wvw stats.

    This change was pointless in the end and has no real effect on necro in pvp or wvw.

  • Acyk.9671Acyk.9671 Member ✭✭
    edited October 18, 2018

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    I disagree with your statement here. Core spec will always be available to the professions, which mean that they will automatically stack with e-specs. You can't imagine an e-spec that replace those specs because it's obvious that if you design an e-spec like that you will make the spec that it replace almost mandatory to take in order to stack the bonus and lean toward an extrem that will outperform everything else. In essence your theoretical point would only lead to a loss of build diversity which isn't the point of the e-specs.

    "Elite trait line enhance/ ** replace** / give alternative to a core spec". Whether you stack the same effects from core + elite is up to the player.

    Nope. In solo content (open PvE/LS instance) you'll play the most effective build 9 time out of 10 because in GW2 the best defense is offense. And it's unfortunately especially true for the necromancer. Most of the time the defensive trait are there to satisfy PvP purpose. You won't, really... Blood magic will mostly favor grouplay, as long as there is more damage loaded in another traitline, this traitline will be disregard in solo content. The sustain in solo content isn't something that players will naturally seek.

    The change is about PvP/WvW so I only talk about solo encounters in those game modes where you need some self sustain (blood still offers self sustain and was just an example on how to trait), not PvE open world and LS where balance is not needed whatsoever...

    The issue is that your theory relie on a basis where the reaper is dealing massively more damage than other profession when in fact the reaper, even with it's 600 ferocity buff can't even dream of reaching the damage potential of other professions.

    Because that's the truth in competitive game modes. My group theory is about "Reaper in WvW" (10+ to 50) where +600 ferocity on shroud MIGHT become a problem. We are not yet to the point where reaper can reliably do that anyway.

    In reality, the real issue isn't ferocity, I'll even go as far as saying that the 600 ferocity buff is totally fine. The real issue is where half the ferocity buff is. The problem is that a trait with 33% crit chance also grant 300 point of ferocity. The 300 ferocity need to go elsewhere, ideally they change/remove dhuumfire which is also a problem child and put the 300 ferocity there.
    Honnestly, the issue isn't the ferocity numbers or even the damage that the reaper can dish out. The issue is that the reaper is at the point where he don't need to gear himself toward damage to deal damage.

    Death Perception used to be +50% crit chance, now it's +33% and +300 ferocity, that's an upgrade but still close mathematically. Before you would gear with power + ferocity +30% crit chance + thoughness/vita, now you need to gear more towards precision than ferocity. Nothing really changed here.

  • Anchoku.8142Anchoku.8142 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It is past time to get rid of traits that only proc when the Necro or opponent is low on health.

  • Dang, Spiteful Spirit was epic in wvw... way more useful than Close to Death. Dropping my dmg down from 5k per hit to 2.5k per hit.... pfffffttttttttttt

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