No Pain No Gain — Guild Wars 2 Forums

No Pain No Gain

I feel like this instability should also give retaliation and that the boon shouldn't be strippable, to make fractals a bit more challening. Thoughts?

Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

Comments

  • You think it is challenge, but that will only make fracs more annoying.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Rodrick.1942 said:
    You think it is challenge, but that will only make fracs more annoying.

    This.

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭

    @Rodrick.1942 said:
    You think it is challenge, but that will only make fracs more annoying.

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Rodrick.1942 said:
    You think it is challenge, but that will only make fracs more annoying.

    This.

    I have a feeling my idea of doubling the HP of all bosses to make them more engaging fights also won't be appreciated then?

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 7, 2018

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Rodrick.1942 said:
    You think it is challenge, but that will only make fracs more annoying.

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Rodrick.1942 said:
    You think it is challenge, but that will only make fracs more annoying.

    This.

    I have a feeling my idea of doubling the HP of all bosses to make them more engaging fights also won't be appreciated then?

    No, because it would only make boss fights more annoying. Players don't die due to difficult mechanics in the first place but by boredom or sleep they fall into and then missing mechanics.
    HP sponges were never a good decision, not in GW2 and not in other games. Also, GW2 have had their sponges with Honor of the Waves. One of the less populated dungeons back in the days because you had to fight bosses for ages + underwater. Even the Acquatic fractal was annoying as hell when the jellyfish had a gazillion hps.
    Even now the last fight in 100 CM (Arkk) is way too long and just a boring waiting game with all the different phases and the 2 mini bosses.

  • Harder for the sake of being harder ends up being dull.

    Anyhow, they have plans for overhauling instabilities in general; I'd rather wait to see what the come up with before worrying more about what we have now.

    "With great power comes not-so-great utility bills."

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    No, because it would only make boss fights more annoying. Players don't die due to difficult mechanics in the first place but by boredom or sleep they fall into and then missing mechanics.
    HP sponges were never a good decision, not in GW2 and not in other games. Also, GW2 have had their sponges with Honor of the Waves. One of the less populated dungeons back in the days because you had to fight bosses for ages + underwater. Even the Acquatic fractal was annoying as hell when the jellyfish had a gazillion hps.
    Even now the last fight in 100 CM (Arkk) is way too long and just a boring waiting game with all the different phases and the 2 mini bosses.

    I do actually enjoy Arkk tho, but I have the opposite view that the fight feels a bit short, I think fractals in general would be better if the fights were a bit longer and I think it would be more engaging if there were more semi-unavoidable damage (retaliation) happening during them.

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    Harder for the sake of being harder ends up being dull.

    Anyhow, they have plans for overhauling instabilities in general; I'd rather wait to see what the come up with before worrying more about what we have now.

    Well most current bosses can be phased in 1 burst, which might be a bit too easy.

    I did not know this, curious to see what will happen-

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • @lodjur.1284 said:
    Well most current bosses can be phased in 1 burst, which might be a bit too easy.

    Changing one instability wouldn't affect that, plus it affects all the less interesting bits in between boss fights.
    (And I think you mean top players can phase bosses on the first boss; PUGs certainly can't be relied up to phase even Thauma ooze.)

    I'm not against updates and overhauls, I just don't think that "making things harder for the sake of being harder" is better for the game.

    I did not know this, curious to see what will happen-

    It's been a while since the last news on this. The short of it is that u/Anet_ben agrees that instabs aren't always fun and could be better, more interesting. He was very interested when a player mentioned the idea of trade offs: e.g. an instab allows you to choose to take more damage, so you can deliver more damage. (Apparently, their team had already been discussing things like that.)

    So my guess is that he has big plans for a holistic review of the entire concept and, like most Big Ideas, it's taking longer to put together than seemed likely at first.

    If you really want, I can look up the posts (or you can google).

    "With great power comes not-so-great utility bills."

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:
    Well most current bosses can be phased in 1 burst, which might be a bit too easy.

    Changing one instability wouldn't affect that, plus it affects all the less interesting bits in between boss fights.
    (And I think you mean top players can phase bosses on the first boss; PUGs certainly can't be relied up to phase even Thauma ooze.)

    I'm not against updates and overhauls, I just don't think that "making things harder for the sake of being harder" is better for the game.

    I did not know this, curious to see what will happen-

    It's been a while since the last news on this. The short of it is that u/Anet_ben agrees that instabs aren't always fun and could be better, more interesting. He was very interested when a player mentioned the idea of trade offs: e.g. an instab allows you to choose to take more damage, so you can deliver more damage. (Apparently, their team had already been discussing things like that.)

    So my guess is that he has big plans for a holistic review of the entire concept and, like most Big Ideas, it's taking longer to put together than seemed likely at first.

    If you really want, I can look up the posts (or you can google).

    Well I haven't been in a pug group in ages that can't nuke oose in 1 go (normally "duoqueueing" with powerdps+boonchrono). Permanent retal and protection would substantially lower dps, tho having it only be some of the time might be a bit sketchy.

    Trade-off instabs sounds great, well if you think you can find it easily I'd appreciate it, but if it's a lot of effort I can look into myself

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 7, 2018

    @lodjur.1284 said:
    Well I haven't been in a pug group in ages that can't nuke oose in 1 go (normally "duoqueueing" with powerdps+boonchrono).

    Lucky you.

    @lodjur.1284 said:
    Well I haven't been in a pug group in ages that can't nuke oose in 1 go (normally "duoqueueing" with powerdps+boonchrono). Permanent retal and protection would substantially lower dps

    Oh yes, permanent retal would definitely "lower" dps, seeing as most classes wouldn't be able to dps at all.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭

    How about a 'Zombie' instability?

    • Your outgoing healing now hurts allies, the boons you apply turn into conditions on allies

    Nothing is particularly hard if you divide it into small jobs. Henry Ford

  • Glider.5792Glider.5792 Member ✭✭✭

    @Henry.5713 said:
    How about a 'Zombie' instability?

    • Your outgoing healing now hurts allies, the boons you apply turn into conditions on allies

    Everyone would hate it, and the toxicity in fractals would increase insanely when this instability would be up.

    @lodjur.1284 said:
    I feel like this instability should also give retaliation and that the boon shouldn't be strippable, to make fractals a bit more challening. Thoughts?

    You know how fast people die on dhuum when he gets retal by accident? Now imagine having every enemy in fractals retal permenantly. Everyone would die after few seconds (1-5s, depending on class). Also, there was an instability in the past, where enemies stole boons, which means retaliations also. Guess what ? Guardian wasnt welcome in fractals due to it, since they ended up wiping parties.

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCeFWMeskOJhk8N-SvOFCJXA
    Fractal speed kills, raids, Black Lion Chest Openings, random.

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭

    @Glider.5792 said:

    You know how fast people die on dhuum when he gets retal by accident? Now imagine having every enemy in fractals retal permenantly. Everyone would die after few seconds (1-5s, depending on class). Also, there was an instability in the past, where enemies stole boons, which means retaliations also. Guess what ? Guardian wasnt welcome in fractals due to it, since they ended up wiping parties.

    I actually do remember boon thieves, I was playing dragonhunter at the time in fractals. It wasn't that bad really

    Well gorseval gets retal and even with "bad" groups that don't CC you normally don't die that fast unless you stack your multihits. Never really had any retal issues on dhuum so can't really comment if that retal hits much harder or not.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    Oh yes, permanent retal would definitely "lower" dps, seeing as most classes wouldn't be able to dps at all.

    Well one can just avoid stacking all your quick multihits and survive with healing

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Glider.5792 said:

    You know how fast people die on dhuum when he gets retal by accident? Now imagine having every enemy in fractals retal permenantly. Everyone would die after few seconds (1-5s, depending on class). Also, there was an instability in the past, where enemies stole boons, which means retaliations also. Guess what ? Guardian wasnt welcome in fractals due to it, since they ended up wiping parties.

    I actually do remember boon thieves, I was playing dragonhunter at the time in fractals. It wasn't that bad really

    Well gorseval gets retal and even with "bad" groups that don't CC you normally don't die that fast unless you stack your multihits. Never really had any retal issues on dhuum so can't really comment if that retal hits much harder or not.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    Oh yes, permanent retal would definitely "lower" dps, seeing as most classes wouldn't be able to dps at all.

    Well one can just avoid stacking all your quick multihits and survive with healing

    Many classes would die just due to mere autoattacks, you know. And while you can survive with healing, it's generally only for a short while. In the long run many classes would be simply unable to have any meaningful dps. So, permanent retal is out.

    Hint: you probably didn't have any issues on dhuum, because that retal nowadays gets stripped in seconds. You are however suggesting an unstrippable boon.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Many classes would die just due to mere autoattacks, you know. And while you can survive with healing, it's generally only for a short while. In the long run many classes would be simply unable to have any meaningful dps. So, permanent retal is out.

    Hint: you probably didn't have any issues on dhuum, because that retal nowadays gets stripped in seconds. You are however suggesting an unstrippable boon.

    I doubt there's any class that can't survive autoattacking with quickness against retal while having a druid healing them.

    Ye for sure that's why I dont have any issues on dhuum, but gorseval also has retaliation (that you can strip it just doesn't show up) and a couple months back (I guess more like a year) pugs generally did the "slow-cc" or "no-cc" strategy there and one could generally survive.

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • Grogba.6204Grogba.6204 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 7, 2018

    There is an easy way to deal with permanent retaliation!

    I just log out and do something else instead, kitten who came up with that idea.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lodjur.1284 said:
    Ye for sure that's why I dont have any issues on dhuum, but gorseval also has retaliation (that you can strip it just doesn't show up) and a couple months back (I guess more like a year) pugs generally did the "slow-cc" or "no-cc" strategy there and one could generally survive.

    Ye, those pugs - I've been into many of them - played with two druids and did the strat: "back - forward - back" etc. + they don't hit the boss too hard/often/with all their heavy dps skills so the druids could outheal the bit of retal damage you got.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 7, 2018

    @lodjur.1284 said:
    I doubt there's any class that can't survive autoattacking with quickness against retal while having a druid healing them.

    Try staff DD for example.

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:
    Ye for sure that's why I dont have any issues on dhuum, but gorseval also has retaliation (that you can strip it just doesn't show up) and a couple months back (I guess more like a year) pugs generally did the "slow-cc" or "no-cc" strategy there and one could generally survive.

    Ye, those pugs - I've been into many of them - played with two druids and did the strat: "back - forward - back" etc. + they don't hit the boss too hard/often/with all their heavy dps skills so the druids could outheal the bit of retal damage you got.

    There's a reason however why immediately breaking the bar results in increased overall dps aven though not breaking it gives you a significantly long window of additional dps time. It's because dps during the no cc strat goes to kitten.
    Also, any suggestion that would require two healers (or a move to the old one druid four condi necros group) in fractal runs is probably a joke.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 7, 2018

    Instabilities aren't challenging, they are annoying to start with. What is challenging in random, meaningless damage?

    On the bright note, you looking for a challenge, join t3 pug run.

    I dream of elves in GW2.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The old you could always only run only weapons and nothing else to make it harder applies here aswell.

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    For me, there is Social Awkward, pain-in-the-kitten Hamstrung, and then everything else. At worst on my Guard I have to add 'dodge' to my GS 5 - > GS 4 -> GS 2 combo when Last Laugh appears. The rest are hardly noticeable. Afflicted for me is a DPS buff (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Smite_Condition)

    That said, a particular combination on a specific fractal can present a real challenge. Top of mind was getting Social Awkward + Last Laugh + Flux on Cliffside a few weeks back. On some of those narrow walkways? Wow was that irritating lol.

  • Lets Make it og when critically hit enemies get boons and op wouldnt Be asking this, or better The boon steal one, and we would have lfg full of no Guardian partys like how it was at hot launch.
    It was so fun when enemies had perma 25 stacks of every boon.

  • The good old days where mobs stole boons and guardians were banished.

  • no pain no gain is not the problem imo, the problem is flux bomb vindicators and toxic trail on swamp

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 11, 2018

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    Oh yes, permanent retal would definitely "lower" dps, seeing as most classes wouldn't be able to dps at all.

    Well one can just avoid stacking all your quick multihits and survive with healing

    And what do you do when you dont want to be bad and play without a healer? Just die? Why have an active combat system in the first place if you want to add unavoidable damage everywhere.

    @Spraxer.8461 said:
    no pain no gain is not the problem imo, the problem is flux bomb vindicators and toxic trail on swamp

    Social awkwardness is like the worst in 100 and 99cm. There is just not enough space to even have 5 players melee with SA during some mechanics. You have to stay far and watch basically. Thats something you can implement into something like WOW but its just completely wrong in gw and even works against the combat system.

    Flux Bomb just adds a huge rng layer for good clears. Did a DPS get it during a burst window? RIP clean kill. No pain no gain just removes all the fun for warriors. Being cc + banner bot wasn't bad enough now they are also boon strip bots.

  • @lodjur.1284 said:
    I doubt there's any class that can't survive autoattacking with quickness against retal while having a druid healing them.

    Ye for sure that's why I dont have any issues on dhuum, but gorseval also has retaliation (that you can strip it just doesn't show up) and a couple months back (I guess more like a year) pugs generally did the "slow-cc" or "no-cc" strategy there and one could generally survive.

    Retaliation scales with power (the power of the one having retal), so when gors retal dont hurt alot, its simply due to gors having low power (also why he dont hurt when he auto). Many bosses (and even normal mobs) in fracs however hit slow but have high power. So the retal (assuming normal retal) from them will be alot harder hitting.

    It is btw the same with reflects, when you reflect a mobs shot, it scales with his power, not yours. That is why you sometimes can 1 shot a mob with reflect. Funny fact, whether the reflected shot crit or not depends on your crit chance, not the mobs.

    All this btw is less about your surgestion and more about how retal works for anyone here not already knowing it.

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