[Feedback] Shadowstrike Changes 3-5-19

Good morning,

In anticipation of the patch today this will be a thread for consolidating feedback for the live release, specifically the updates to Shadowstrike. I’d like to suggest a format for people to use in providing feedback to ensure we get a complete picture for the developers.

The questions for feedback:

1. Does the implemented flip skill provide additional lethality to P/D?
2. Does the implemented flip skill do enough overall damage?
3. Does the implemented flip skill do enough power damage?
4. Does the implemented flip skill do enough and/or the right kind of condition effects?
5. Does the implemented flip skill do its damage quickly enough?
6. Does the implemented flip skill cost an appropriate amount of initiative?
7. Does the implemented flip skill remain active/available for an appropriate length of time after landing a Shadowstrike?

Some consolidated feedback based on comments below:

Damage:

• Better than autoattack (necessary)
• Still feels somewhat lackluster.
• Power damage on Repeater should be higher than it is while still being less than Sneak Attack.
• Condi damage is lackluster compared to previous advantage of landing multiple Shadowstrikes.

Cost:

• 4 is fairly high for the damage and the problems projectiles have. If this cost remains then damage needs to be increased. Otherwise cost needs to come down.

Flip Skill Interaction:

• Getting this as a one use flip skill is not the same as locking this skill into a different skill for a set duration.
• Some people like the ability to use Repeater multiple times.
• Some people don’t like being locked into the flip skill after using it.
• Some people don’t mind the current functionality but think 4 seconds is too long.

Additional Change Suggestions:

• Make Repeater Unblockable
• Make Repeater apply bonus conditions if all bullets hit.

I have been running P/D all week to get used to the mechanics in combat... the damage is solid and Repeater is going to make the fluidity of the attacks much stronger. Steal, Shadow Strike, Repeater as an opener looks to be very strong. I am used to Head Shot but the transition has been fairly easy. Virtually nobody is used to the mechanics of the build currently so lots of confused enemies for now.

@Straegen.2938 said:I have been running P/D all week to get used to the mechanics in combat... the damage is solid and Repeater is going to make the fluidity of the attacks much stronger. Steal, Shadow Strike, Repeater as an opener looks to be very strong. I am used to Head Shot but the transition has been fairly easy. Virtually nobody is used to the mechanics of the build currently so lots of confused enemies for now.

But you get more damage just using the auto attack after Shadowstrike if I understand the numbers correctly. I’ll wait for the patch in 40 minutes to see the numbers as implemented (given the past few weeks accurate patch notes are not something I’m taking as a given).

looks like we all misunderstood the patch notes, SS -> Repeater is not a flip skill as we understand it with FS -> LS. If you hit with SS, your skill #3 will literally stay Repeater for 4 seconds, it does not flip back even if you use it. This means you can actually use Repeater twice if you queue it back-to-back, and 3 times if you have quickness.

@killy.3278 said:looks like we all misunderstood the patch notes, SS -> Repeater is not a flip skill as we understand it with FS -> LS. If you hit with SS, your skill #3 will literally stay Repeater for 4 seconds, it does not flip back even if you use it. This means you can actually use Repeater twice if you queue it back-to-back, and 3 times if you have quickness.

Huh, that's pretty interesting actually. Makes it a condi variant of P/P.

I'm at work so can't test until tomorrow (24h shifts ftw), I'll edit this post to answer Saerni's questions once I've been able to play a little tomorrow night.

@saerni.2584 said:

@Straegen.2938 said:I have been running P/D all week to get used to the mechanics in combat... the damage is solid and Repeater is going to make the fluidity of the attacks much stronger. Steal, Shadow Strike, Repeater as an opener looks to be very strong. I am used to Head Shot but the transition has been fairly easy. Virtually nobody is used to the mechanics of the build currently so lots of confused enemies for now.

You are leaving us working folk hanging. Throw us a bone!

@Turk.5460 said:

@saerni.2584 said:

@Straegen.2938 said:I have been running P/D all week to get used to the mechanics in combat... the damage is solid and Repeater is going to make the fluidity of the attacks much stronger. Steal, Shadow Strike, Repeater as an opener looks to be very strong. I am used to Head Shot but the transition has been fairly easy. Virtually nobody is used to the mechanics of the build currently so lots of confused enemies for now.

Yeah my curiosity is eating me up. Can't wait to get home.

I tested it briefly with power gear on.

4 ini for SS, 4 ini for repeater. Can easily get off 2 repeater during flip. Hit about 4k on WvW tower lord.

@killy.3278 said:looks like we all misunderstood the patch notes, SS -> Repeater is not a flip skill as we understand it with FS -> LS. If you hit with SS, your skill #3 will literally stay Repeater for 4 seconds, it does not flip back even if you use it. This means you can actually use Repeater twice if you queue it back-to-back, and 3 times if you have quickness.

Well that's unexpected.

Though I'd probably argue that makes things worse lol. That cast time is so horrendous it's basically the same as the AA chain. But being able to recast it, it kind of needs to be, otherwise you'd have way too much burst bleed access.

First bit of feedback. If in DE spec it way easier to fill up on malice. You can generally get off two iterations of repeater before it drops. Given the skill uses INI wherein sneak attack and the auto attack do not this generally means 4+ malice stacks even at low precision. While it would seem this would not help a condition build as much as power , getting to a malice 7 is much easier which means More INI. I tended to stay in FFE because malice build was too slow to consider Mali 7 in Condition builds. I may rethink that.

The second observation. All of WvW is queued on every borderland! This never happens midweek! ;) These are not minor queues eiher and I dot no encounter the same after previous patches. Someone is liking something.

Third up! Repeater channel time is 1.25 seconds a full .5 seconds shaved off the original in this version. This shave in time has happened to the no weapon off hand version as well. It also one less INI to cast then it was previously.

Yeah, so I’ll comment a bit now that I’ve had a chance to play it a bit.

As Babaz mentioned the channel time is 1.25 and 4 initiative cost. Using the wizards /thief Runes sPvP stats for comparison purposes the power damage is 1180 and bleed damage of 1800. So it seems the power contribution or something was boosted slightly? Or I had a passive buff on me and didn’t notice. Anyways that is roughly 945 power DPS and 450 bleed DPS for around 1400 DPS. This is still a bit low compared to Unload but it is better than auto attack if only slightly.

As Babaz mentioned Repeater is useful as a malice builder. You can usually get above the threshold where stolen skills stealth you pretty fast. Biggest advantage is another source of ranged pressure that actually hits (unlike Dancing Dagger).

The decision to lock in Repeater for 4 seconds is...unwise? If it is locked I’d prefer to have it for only 3 seconds and keep my flexibility.

Initiative cost is ok but needs to do slightly more damage. Maybe boost the power damage by 20%. Still wouldn’t be as powerful as Unload by far. If you aren’t playing DE you don’t get the malice stacking from this skill and could use a little more damage to make this a skill worth taking.

I’ll continue testing it out. It’s better than the patch notes would indicate but it’s not so great that anyone will be crying OP (even if they boosted the damage by 20% tomorrow).

@saerni.2584 said:I’ll continue testing it out. It’s better than the patch notes would indicate but it’s not so great that anyone will be crying OP (even if they boosted the damage by 20% tomorrow).I killed two necros using a pistol only bleed build (granted it was in EotM but still). I don't think it's OP either but it is funny that one pistol only is kind of viable.

@"saerni.2584" said:

The decision to lock in Repeater for 4 seconds is...unwise? If it is locked I’d prefer to have it for only 3 seconds and keep my flexibility.

Found this one to be rather obstructive actually... Played a bit today and I did find myself in a couple situations where I thought "Wow, I sure wish I had my Shadowstrike available right now." 4 seconds is a long time without a really nice kiting and damage ability. Gonna have to unlearn the habit of always having Shadowstrike available and try to rely on stealth more often considering the malice building is easy AF now.

I usually play Power though, so there's that. Condi while not new to me, is not what I usually play.

Unfortunately I could not get into WvW much due to the queues so maybe later. That said I have been testing open world against more robust enemies and trying to compare before/after. I had to change up rotations a wee bit but damage out is higher and those enemies go down quicker. That Malice build makes a significant difference as it allows for the Sneak attack to strike more often at full malice garnering more of the torment. I am not as down on the 4 seconds flip time as some others as I like that I can get those two repeaters off for the malice. I am not sure this would happen as frequently at a 3 second interval and also think this MORE flexible as I could still delay using it long enough to get past blocks an enemy might throw up in anticipation of that repeater. The way i see things going is once people get used to his add they will throw up an immediate block or reflect after you get a successful shadowstrike in. 4 seconds allows me to wait that out if I wish.

@babazhook.6805 said:Unfortunately I could not get into WvW much due to the queues so maybe later. That said I have been testing open world against more robust enemies and trying to compare before/after. I had to change up rotations a wee bit but damage out is higher and those enemies go down quicker. That Malice build makes a significant difference as it allows for the Sneak attack to strike more often at full malice garnering more of the torment. I am not as down on the 4 seconds flip time as some others as I like that I can get those two repeaters off for the malice. I am not sure this would happen as frequently at a 3 second interval and also think this MORE flexible as I could still delay using it long enough to get past blocks an enemy might throw up in anticipation of that repeater. The way i see things going is once people get used to his add they will throw up an immediate block or reflect after you get a successful shadowstrike in. 4 seconds allows me to wait that out if I wish.

High mobility enemies usually don’t bother with blocks they just tend to rush you as soon as you teleport away. Not being able to respond has hurt me in a few fights so far (think warrior builds that can’t really be immobilized).

My issues with Repeater in order of priority are:

1. Needs to either flip to Repeater only once or the available time needs to be less (around 3 seconds).
2. Damage needs to be a little bit higher or the shots could be made a little more reliable (pierce) to make up for the somewhat low damage.

@dDuff.3860 Repeater now costs 4 initiative and takes 1.25 seconds to channel. Damage includes bleed x5 and power damage that is greater than autoattack. It’s not great but you are reacting to the old skill numbers.

Post below OP is now being updated to reflect the feedback overall.

@Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 As promised, we will continue to provide feedback on this change.

@saerni.2584 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:Unfortunately I could not get into WvW much due to the queues so maybe later. That said I have been testing open world against more robust enemies and trying to compare before/after. I had to change up rotations a wee bit but damage out is higher and those enemies go down quicker. That Malice build makes a significant difference as it allows for the Sneak attack to strike more often at full malice garnering more of the torment. I am not as down on the 4 seconds flip time as some others as I like that I can get those two repeaters off for the malice. I am not sure this would happen as frequently at a 3 second interval and also think this MORE flexible as I could still delay using it long enough to get past blocks an enemy might throw up in anticipation of that repeater. The way i see things going is once people get used to his add they will throw up an immediate block or reflect after you get a successful shadowstrike in. 4 seconds allows me to wait that out if I wish.

1. Needs to either flip to Repeater only once or the available time needs to be less (around 3 seconds).
2. Damage needs to be a little bit higher or the shots could be made a little more reliable (pierce) to make up for the somewhat low damage.

As far as the enemy moving towards you goes, Repeater is not like one Hundred Blades. You can still move as you use it as in Backpedaling . No repeater you still have the same issues in that the enemy moves towards you. You also have the pistol 2 you can use between as you would have done prior. Added to that when I am fighting P/d and specifically against certain classes, I tended to dodge that initial gap close rather then take a hit and rely on Sstrike to port away. This expecially in reaction to something like bulls charge or the swoop/maul combo from a ranger. I did get into WvW late last night and albeit only faced a small number of enemies and more testing needed, I had no real issues with that 4 seconds while welcoming the quicker ramp of malice taht 2 repeater shots allowed.

To the damage issue , I am not testing hybrid or power at this time focusing instead on the Condition build so no comment yet on that score.

@babazhook.6805 said:

@saerni.2584 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:Unfortunately I could not get into WvW much due to the queues so maybe later. That said I have been testing open world against more robust enemies and trying to compare before/after. I had to change up rotations a wee bit but damage out is higher and those enemies go down quicker. That Malice build makes a significant difference as it allows for the Sneak attack to strike more often at full malice garnering more of the torment. I am not as down on the 4 seconds flip time as some others as I like that I can get those two repeaters off for the malice. I am not sure this would happen as frequently at a 3 second interval and also think this MORE flexible as I could still delay using it long enough to get past blocks an enemy might throw up in anticipation of that repeater. The way i see things going is once people get used to his add they will throw up an immediate block or reflect after you get a successful shadowstrike in. 4 seconds allows me to wait that out if I wish.

1. Needs to either flip to Repeater only once or the available time needs to be less (around 3 seconds).
2. Damage needs to be a little bit higher or the shots could be made a little more reliable (pierce) to make up for the somewhat low damage.

I may need to simply adjust my play style. My preference had been to simply move backwards and then counter the gap closer with an additional Shadowstrike. If the skill flipped instantly or on a shorter timer I wouldn’t always need to dodge away.

DrD vs. DE?

@Turk.5460 said:DrD vs. DE?

He was talking about malice so I assume we are both on DE.

@Turk.5460 said:DrD vs. DE?

Yeah I am on DE now and liking the accelerated Malice. At some point I intend to test a core version and a DrD version but at this point as far as pure condition goes I am seeing p/d as an upgrade in the DE spec. Now the thing is other professions have seen significant boosts and in particular engineer with oodles of condition cleanse. Overall we may have lost ground.

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Turk.5460 said:DrD vs. DE?

We (all thieves) gained vs:

• Mirage
• Guardian

We have lost ground against:

• Scrapper

But other professions were already in a good position vs thief so I don’t think this reversed our relative disadvantage.

P/D Thief needs tools to cut through reflection. Making Repeater unblockable might be a good option. In this meta it would hardly be noticed.