What tradeoff would you like to see? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

What tradeoff would you like to see?

runeblade.7514runeblade.7514 Member ✭✭✭
edited April 19, 2019 in Professions

Elite specializations were introduced with the Heart of Thorns™ expansion and have become a regular sight throughout Tyria. These specializations have sometimes come with trade-offs, and sometimes they've been purely beneficial compared to a core specialization, often because they add something on top of everything the profession already does. We believe that elite specializations are a more meaningful choice when they have some trade-off or change some core part of a profession's mechanics.

To use the example of necromancer, by choosing an elite specialization, you lose access to your core Death Shroud abilities, but you gain different abilities. This is a clear trade-off. In the case of elite specializations like druid, herald, chronomancer, berserker, or scrapper, this type of trade-off isn't possible because the specialization adds a completely new ability. With this update, we're targeting a few elite specializations to receive trade-offs, and we expect to continue doing this in future updates. As for general changes, we've made a few consistency updates to aura naming and introduced dark auras to the game. We also changed a number of abilities that would destroy missiles, making them block missiles instead.

The new balance patch is going to introduce tradeoff so that there is a reason to go for core profession instead of elite specialization being the best.

My ideas:

  • Elementalist- All attunement cooldown is reduced to 1 second(All traits that benefits from attunement swapping gets a cooldown).
  • Engineer- Scrappers can no longer use Elite Toolbelt(F5) from Elite Skills. Instead, Function Gyro is now a F5 active skill that Scrappers can use to summon. All Adept Major traits are all replaced with a way to personalize Function Gyro like how Renegade Adept trait personalize Kalla's Fervor.
  • Guardian- No tradeoff needed as all the F skills in all specialization are different from each other. Although I would like to see core guardian Fskills to have an ammo system to make it more interesting.
  • Mesmer- Gets a F5 skill that summons a clone. I don't find this interesting so probably someone can make a better idea. It is the most mesmer-thing I could think of that isn't chronomancer or Mirage.
  • Necromancer- No tradeoff needed.
  • Ranger- Since Druid is getting a trade off where pets are weaker, I don't need to talk about that. I would like to see Soulbeast tradeoff to be the complete removal of the pet and it would turn into the passive buffs we have. This would mean that a lot of traits will have to be reworked completely. So, if that is not possible, I would like to see Ranger having stronger pets.
  • Revenant- Getting a trade off and all specialization are different from each other. No need to talk about it.
  • Thief- Daredevil is getting a tradeoff and all specialization are different from each other. No need to talk about it.
  • Warrior- Berserker is getting a tradeoff and all specialization are different from each other. No need to talk about it.

6x warrior/5xRanger/6x Revenant/6x Mesmer/5x Guardian/6x Thief/5x Engineer/5x Necromancer/5x Elementalist

Comments

  • AlexndrTheGreat.8310AlexndrTheGreat.8310 Member ✭✭
    edited April 19, 2019

    About Soulbeast, one way could be the pet is nerfed by 20% when it’s out and not merged, but then when merged the stats are as is now. In PvE this would make a minimal disadvantage because you stay merged almost 100% of the time. This would cause an effect in pvp and wvw, however, since Soulbeast frequently unmerge and swap pets, and they’re not always merged.

    Straight up removing the pet would not be a good idea, because at that points it’s straight up removing the base class mechanic, which I don’t think Anet is aiming for. Plus as you mentioned, the large rework of traits that would need to happen to do so.

  • Me Games Ma.8426Me Games Ma.8426 Member ✭✭✭

    For Mesmer I'd like to see one of these:

    • F5 ability that summons two new phantasms not depending on the weapon carried.
    • F5 shatter: Destroy all clones and stealth for 1/2/3/4s
    • Passive ability that increases clone hp.
  • Iozeph.5617Iozeph.5617 Member ✭✭✭

    Completely undo all the turret nerfs and that for just a start. Engineer elites give up nothing because core engineer no matter what it tries to do is in the gutter when compared to Holo and Scrapper. How do we even have this conversation when core was gutted and what was lost was either given to other professions (Revenant) or rebranded and locked behind pay/expansion walls in the new elites?

  • InsaneQR.7412InsaneQR.7412 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Me Games Ma.8426 said:
    For Mesmer I'd like to see one of these:

    • F5 ability that summons two new phantasms not depending on the weapon carried.
    • F5 shatter: Destroy all clones and stealth for 1/2/3/4s
    • Passive ability that increases clone hp.

    The stealth one is actually pretty neat idea.
    If it would proc on team members (maybe with trait) would make it especially nice.
    It would empower core mesmer in competitive modes and increase their survivability and utility in the whole game.
    PvE wise this wouldn't have that high of an impact but atleast it would be nice to have to skip mobs.

  • Erasculio.2914Erasculio.2914 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @runeblade.7514 said:
    The new balance patch is going to introduce tradeoff so that there is a reason to go for core profession instead of elite specialization being the best.

    My ideas:

    • Elementalist- All attunement cooldown is reduced to 1 second(All traits that benefits from attunement swapping gets a cooldown).
    • Engineer- Scrappers can no longer use Elite Toolbelt(F5) from Elite Skills. Instead, Function Gyro is now a F5 active skill that Scrappers can use to summon. All Adept Major traits are all replaced with a way to personalize Function Gyro like how Renegade Adept trait personalize Kalla's Fervor.
    • Guardian- No tradeoff needed as all the F skills in all specialization are different from each other. Although I would like to see core guardian Fskills to have an ammo system to make it more interesting.
    • Mesmer- Gets a F5 skill that summons a clone. I don't find this interesting so probably someone can make a better idea. It is the most mesmer-thing I could think of that isn't chronomancer or Mirage.
    • Necromancer- No tradeoff needed.
    • Ranger- Since Druid is getting a trade off where pets are weaker, I don't need to talk about that. I would like to see Soulbeast tradeoff to be the complete removal of the pet and it would turn into the passive buffs we have. This would mean that a lot of traits will have to be reworked completely. So, if that is not possible, I would like to see Ranger having stronger pets.
    • Revenant- Getting a trade off and all specialization are different from each other. No need to talk about it.
    • Thief- Daredevil is getting a tradeoff and all specialization are different from each other. No need to talk about it.
    • Warrior- Berserker is getting a tradeoff and all specialization are different from each other. No need to talk about it.

    So:

    • Guardian: already has tradeoffs
    • Revenant: already deal with in the incoming patch
    • Warrior: already deal with in the incoming patch
    • Thief: already deal with in the incoming patch
    • Necromancer: already has tradeoffs

    The only specializations left to discuss are:

    • Engineer: Scrapper
    • Ranger: Soulbeast
    • Elementalist: Tempest
    • Mesmer: Chronomancer

    I would suggest:

    • Scrapper: I like the OP's idea of losing access to the elite tool belt skill
    • Soulbeast: those probably deserve the Revenant treatment, like the OP said, making the pets stronger but only for the core ranger
    • Tempest: the recharge of the attunements is increased, even without using Overcharge
    • Chronomancer: cannot spread boons to allies

    How about some anti eyes bleeding options? Here's the direct link to the concept.

  • Yannir.4132Yannir.4132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Erasculio.2914 said:

    • Chronomancer: cannot spread boons to allies

    That is a phenomenally bad idea.

  • Erasculio.2914Erasculio.2914 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yannir.4132 said:

    @Erasculio.2914 said:

    • Chronomancer: cannot spread boons to allies

    That is a phenomenally bad idea.

    Honestly, ArenaNet is going to do that sooner or later, considering how they keep nerfing Signet of Inspiration almost every patch.

    How about some anti eyes bleeding options? Here's the direct link to the concept.

  • runeblade.7514runeblade.7514 Member ✭✭✭

    @InsaneQR.7412 said:
    For soulbeast I would like to see that beastmode replaces petswap.
    You would benefit from swap traits but no longer could you run a survival pet and a powerhouse.
    You basically specialist into a pet and lose versatility.

    Soulbeast still would be strong but they couldn't pair stealth and CC from an SS with the mobility and heals of an owl.
    And in PvE it would actually improve gameplay and would ease the going out if beastmode drawback because you would get benefits from swap traits.

    So complete removal of pet but they get Beastmode swap? I like this idea. That would cut down the number of traits that needs to be reworked significantly if it doesn't cut down all of them.

    6x warrior/5xRanger/6x Revenant/6x Mesmer/5x Guardian/6x Thief/5x Engineer/5x Necromancer/5x Elementalist

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @runeblade.7514 said:

    Elite specializations were introduced with the Heart of Thorns™ expansion and have become a regular sight throughout Tyria. These specializations have sometimes come with trade-offs, and sometimes they've been purely beneficial compared to a core specialization, often because they add something on top of everything the profession already does. We believe that elite specializations are a more meaningful choice when they have some trade-off or change some core part of a profession's mechanics.

    To use the example of necromancer, by choosing an elite specialization, you lose access to your core Death Shroud abilities, but you gain different abilities. This is a clear trade-off. In the case of elite specializations like druid, herald, chronomancer, berserker, or scrapper, this type of trade-off isn't possible because the specialization adds a completely new ability. With this update, we're targeting a few elite specializations to receive trade-offs, and we expect to continue doing this in future updates. As for general changes, we've made a few consistency updates to aura naming and introduced dark auras to the game. We also changed a number of abilities that would destroy missiles, making them block missiles instead.

    The new balance patch is going to introduce tradeoff so that there is a reason to go for core profession instead of elite specialization being the best.

    My ideas:

    • Elementalist- All attunement cooldown is reduced to 1 second(All traits that benefits from attunement swapping gets a cooldown).
    • Engineer- Scrappers can no longer use Elite Toolbelt(F5) from Elite Skills. Instead, Function Gyro is now a F5 active skill that Scrappers can use to summon. All Adept Major traits are all replaced with a way to personalize Function Gyro like how Renegade Adept trait personalize Kalla's Fervor.
    • Guardian- No tradeoff needed as all the F skills in all specialization are different from each other. Although I would like to see core guardian Fskills to have an ammo system to make it more interesting.
    • Mesmer- Gets a F5 skill that summons a clone. I don't find this interesting so probably someone can make a better idea. It is the most mesmer-thing I could think of that isn't chronomancer or Mirage.
    • Necromancer- No tradeoff needed.
    • Ranger- Since Druid is getting a trade off where pets are weaker, I don't need to talk about that. I would like to see Soulbeast tradeoff to be the complete removal of the pet and it would turn into the passive buffs we have. This would mean that a lot of traits will have to be reworked completely. So, if that is not possible, I would like to see Ranger having stronger pets.
    • Revenant- Getting a trade off and all specialization are different from each other. No need to talk about it.
    • Thief- Daredevil is getting a tradeoff and all specialization are different from each other. No need to talk about it.
    • Warrior- Berserker is getting a tradeoff and all specialization are different from each other. No need to talk about it.

    If I know Arenanet, Continuum Split is almost certainly going to replace Distortion entirely as an F4 instead of being an F5. Mirage Cloak already loses the ability to dodge away or to the side at full speed without wasting evade frames turning. Maybe do something similar, give it back its old 1s evade window or a 1.25 evade window with Mirage Cloak in exchange for losing distortion.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • Auburner.6945Auburner.6945 Member ✭✭✭

    I have a dream that one day I will drop Arcane/Water lines on my Elementalist.

    Pull the strings. Watch them dance.

  • runeblade.7514runeblade.7514 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 21, 2019

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @runeblade.7514 said:

    Elite specializations were introduced with the Heart of Thorns™ expansion and have become a regular sight throughout Tyria. These specializations have sometimes come with trade-offs, and sometimes they've been purely beneficial compared to a core specialization, often because they add something on top of everything the profession already does. We believe that elite specializations are a more meaningful choice when they have some trade-off or change some core part of a profession's mechanics.

    To use the example of necromancer, by choosing an elite specialization, you lose access to your core Death Shroud abilities, but you gain different abilities. This is a clear trade-off. In the case of elite specializations like druid, herald, chronomancer, berserker, or scrapper, this type of trade-off isn't possible because the specialization adds a completely new ability. With this update, we're targeting a few elite specializations to receive trade-offs, and we expect to continue doing this in future updates. As for general changes, we've made a few consistency updates to aura naming and introduced dark auras to the game. We also changed a number of abilities that would destroy missiles, making them block missiles instead.

    The new balance patch is going to introduce tradeoff so that there is a reason to go for core profession instead of elite specialization being the best.

    My ideas:

    • Elementalist- All attunement cooldown is reduced to 1 second(All traits that benefits from attunement swapping gets a cooldown).
    • Engineer- Scrappers can no longer use Elite Toolbelt(F5) from Elite Skills. Instead, Function Gyro is now a F5 active skill that Scrappers can use to summon. All Adept Major traits are all replaced with a way to personalize Function Gyro like how Renegade Adept trait personalize Kalla's Fervor.
    • Guardian- No tradeoff needed as all the F skills in all specialization are different from each other. Although I would like to see core guardian Fskills to have an ammo system to make it more interesting.
    • Mesmer- Gets a F5 skill that summons a clone. I don't find this interesting so probably someone can make a better idea. It is the most mesmer-thing I could think of that isn't chronomancer or Mirage.
    • Necromancer- No tradeoff needed.
    • Ranger- Since Druid is getting a trade off where pets are weaker, I don't need to talk about that. I would like to see Soulbeast tradeoff to be the complete removal of the pet and it would turn into the passive buffs we have. This would mean that a lot of traits will have to be reworked completely. So, if that is not possible, I would like to see Ranger having stronger pets.
    • Revenant- Getting a trade off and all specialization are different from each other. No need to talk about it.
    • Thief- Daredevil is getting a tradeoff and all specialization are different from each other. No need to talk about it.
    • Warrior- Berserker is getting a tradeoff and all specialization are different from each other. No need to talk about it.

    If I know Arenanet, Continuum Split is almost certainly going to replace Distortion entirely as an F4 instead of being an F5. Mirage Cloak already loses the ability to dodge away or to the side at full speed without wasting evade frames turning. Maybe do something similar, give it back its old 1s evade window or a 1.25 evade window with Mirage Cloak in exchange for losing distortion.

    While it would be fair from a mesmer vs chrono. It wouldn't be fair to a chrono vs. Mirage as Mirage gets to keep distortion.

    6x warrior/5xRanger/6x Revenant/6x Mesmer/5x Guardian/6x Thief/5x Engineer/5x Necromancer/5x Elementalist

  • runeblade.7514runeblade.7514 Member ✭✭✭

    @InsaneQR.7412 said:

    @Me Games Ma.8426 said:
    For Mesmer I'd like to see one of these:

    • F5 ability that summons two new phantasms not depending on the weapon carried.
    • F5 shatter: Destroy all clones and stealth for 1/2/3/4s
    • Passive ability that increases clone hp.

    The stealth one is actually pretty neat idea.
    If it would proc on team members (maybe with trait) would make it especially nice.
    It would empower core mesmer in competitive modes and increase their survivability and utility in the whole game.
    PvE wise this wouldn't have that high of an impact but atleast it would be nice to have to skip mobs.

    That F5 stealth idea gave me PU mesmers flashbacks from way back then.

    6x warrior/5xRanger/6x Revenant/6x Mesmer/5x Guardian/6x Thief/5x Engineer/5x Necromancer/5x Elementalist

  • Me Games Ma.8426Me Games Ma.8426 Member ✭✭✭

    @runeblade.7514 said:

    @InsaneQR.7412 said:

    @Me Games Ma.8426 said:
    For Mesmer I'd like to see one of these:

    • F5 ability that summons two new phantasms not depending on the weapon carried.
    • F5 shatter: Destroy all clones and stealth for 1/2/3/4s
    • Passive ability that increases clone hp.

    The stealth one is actually pretty neat idea.
    If it would proc on team members (maybe with trait) would make it especially nice.
    It would empower core mesmer in competitive modes and increase their survivability and utility in the whole game.
    PvE wise this wouldn't have that high of an impact but atleast it would be nice to have to skip mobs.

    That F5 stealth idea gave me PU mesmers flashbacks from way back then.

    Hehehe I'm already hyped for my core mesmer PU roaming build which is getting buffed this patch :)

  • I think Mesmer getting a f5 wouldn't be bad (like stealth idea) but what about if the elite specs got 1 less clone output slot. (yes some numbers for shatter traits on chrono might need tweaking but it would make the other specs less focused on spam and they both have very strong mechanics)

    soul beast I would prefer they have access to one pet like their soul split between the two entities.

    scrapper gyro only really useful in pvp, it not a very powerful extra mechanic.(if It was going have a drawback I would go with removing the cd on gyro and making it cost endurance to use)
    holo needs a drawback to holo mode because it very powerful for trading in 1 f5 skill for 5 uber skills. maybe make the holo take more damage at higher heat threshold's 3%,6%,9%

    Elementalist a tricky one I wouldn't want it to have lower cd on swapping just promotes quicker skill spam rotating.
    maybe it be better to just give drawbacks to the other two.

  • Ganathar.4956Ganathar.4956 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 22, 2019

    @Nightmare.1234 said:
    I think Mesmer getting a f5 wouldn't be bad (like stealth idea) but what about if the elite specs got 1 less clone output slot. (yes some numbers for shatter traits on chrono might need tweaking but it would make the other specs less focused on spam and they both have very strong mechanics)

    soul beast I would prefer they have access to one pet like their soul split between the two entities.

    scrapper gyro only really useful in pvp, it not a very powerful extra mechanic.(if It was going have a drawback I would go with removing the cd on gyro and making it cost endurance to use)
    holo needs a drawback to holo mode because it very powerful for trading in 1 f5 skill for 5 uber skills. maybe make the holo take more damage at higher heat threshold's 3%,6%,9%

    Elementalist a tricky one I wouldn't want it to have lower cd on swapping just promotes quicker skill spam rotating.
    maybe it be better to just give drawbacks to the other two.

    Ele already has its drawbacks in place. Weaver has the heaviest drawbacks an elite spec has ever seen. Restricting access to important #3 weapon skills, and delaying access to #4 and #5 weapon skills which are usually critical for defense. The spec also gives a cd to every attunement when you do a swap, unlike core ele where only the attunement you swapped from goes on cd.

    Tempest's drawback is less obvious, but it's still there. When you use an overload your attunement goes on 20 seconds cd. This becomes even worse when you consider that they are the most interruptible skills ever with a 4 second cast time, while still giving you the full 20 second cd even on interrupt. Now you can obviously argue that overloads are merely a free addition of tempest and that you can choose not to use them with no drawback. However, this notion is incorrect because every single minor trait in the tempest line involves overloading. By not overloading you are making your minors pointless. At that point you are better off traiting core. Since that makes it preferable to trait core in some situations, it is definitely a drawback.

  • @Ganathar.4956 said:

    @Nightmare.1234 said:
    I think Mesmer getting a f5 wouldn't be bad (like stealth idea) but what about if the elite specs got 1 less clone output slot. (yes some numbers for shatter traits on chrono might need tweaking but it would make the other specs less focused on spam and they both have very strong mechanics)

    soul beast I would prefer they have access to one pet like their soul split between the two entities.

    scrapper gyro only really useful in pvp, it not a very powerful extra mechanic.(if It was going have a drawback I would go with removing the cd on gyro and making it cost endurance to use)
    holo needs a drawback to holo mode because it very powerful for trading in 1 f5 skill for 5 uber skills. maybe make the holo take more damage at higher heat threshold's 3%,6%,9%

    Elementalist a tricky one I wouldn't want it to have lower cd on swapping just promotes quicker skill spam rotating.
    maybe it be better to just give drawbacks to the other two.

    Ele already has its drawbacks in place. Weaver has the heaviest drawbacks an elite spec has ever seen. Restricting access to important #3 weapon skills, and delaying access to #4 and #5 weapon skills which are usually critical for defense. The spec also gives a cd to every attunement when you do a swap, unlike core ele where only the attunement you swapped from goes on cd.

    Tempest's drawback is less obvious, but it's still there. When you use an overload your attunement goes on 20 seconds cd. This becomes even worse when you consider that they are the most interruptible skills ever with a 4 second cast time, while still giving you the full 20 second cd even on interrupt. Now you can obviously argue that overloads are merely a free addition of tempest and that you can choose not to use them with no drawback. However, this notion is incorrect because every single minor trait in the tempest line involves overloading. By not overloading you are making your minors pointless. At that point you are better off traiting core. Since that makes it preferable to trait core in some situations, it is definitely a drawback.

    point made, ele the only class I don't have or will never really play (confuses the heck out of me and I cant multi task lol) that's why I don't really have any opinions on the class. maybe it just better left alone, it one of them classes that gets better as others get nerfs.

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 22, 2019

    i don't see ele getting a new trade-off since since both mechanics makes attunment swapping slower and soulbeast looses their pet when they merge (which is also a trade-off)

    also i think it's more likely that continuum split will take the place of an other shatter skill rather then give mesmer a new f5 (and definitely not a stealth skill) or maybe they're reworking some stuff.

    function gyro is probably gonna get a rework (tho i don't such a trait rework happen)

    I Have No friends, so I Must pug

  • Auburner.6945Auburner.6945 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 22, 2019

    @derd.6413 said:
    i don't see ele getting a new trade-off since since both mechanics makes attunment swapping slower and soulbeast looses their pet when they merge (which is also a trade-off)

    also i think it's more likely that continuum split will take the place of an other shatter skill rather then give mesmer a new f5 (and definitely not a stealth skill) or maybe they're reworking some stuff.

    function gyro is probably gonna get a rework (tho i don't such a trait rework happen)

    Soulbeast gets another skill bar and higher stats without traits, that's nothing for ele. Also, SB can still not merge, they may as well merge and instantly become 2 for healing. If you have to compare specs this way then ele is already lacking. Shades are most likely the best example of what overloads should/could have been.

    Pull the strings. Watch them dance.

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 22, 2019

    @Auburner.6945 said:

    @derd.6413 said:
    i don't see ele getting a new trade-off since since both mechanics makes attunment swapping slower and soulbeast looses their pet when they merge (which is also a trade-off)

    also i think it's more likely that continuum split will take the place of an other shatter skill rather then give mesmer a new f5 (and definitely not a stealth skill) or maybe they're reworking some stuff.

    function gyro is probably gonna get a rework (tho i don't such a trait rework happen)

    Soulbeast gets another skill bar and higher stats without traits, that's nothing for ele. Also, SB can still not merge, they may as well merge and instantly become 2 for healing. If you have to compare specs this way then ele is already lacking. Shades are most likely the best example of what overloads should/could have been.

    soulbeast doesn't get the merging benefits when their pet is out. yes, the numbers need adjusting but there is a trade-off present.
    and if SB really requires an aditional trade-off it's probably gonna be at worst the removal of pet swap rather then pets entirely

    also if you think shades would be good for ele overload i fear you're gonna be extremely disappointed. (cuz they're not)

    I Have No friends, so I Must pug

  • SpellOfIniquity.1780SpellOfIniquity.1780 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 22, 2019

    Giving Avian pets the Swoop ability is a huge part of what removed the trade off of playing Soulbeast.

    Prior to this change (which was a long while back now), you could play core Ranger with Skirmishing and Quick Draw to have greater mobility and lower cooldowns as well as higher crit chance. After the change, it's pretty much a flat upgrade to play Soulbeast because you have equally as much mobility via Swoop from the pet + either Greatsword or 1h Sword leaps and more damage from various traits and buffs.

    Although there are other things besides this that are an issue between Ranger and Soulbeast, I think from a WvW/PvP perspective, this is definitely one of the problems. "Sic 'Em!" is another big offender that I'm astonished hasn't been nerfed yet. Reducing the effect to only grant 5 - 10% increase in damage for the Soulbeast while merged would be a great start.

    Boon sharing between merging is also an issue but it can be achieved with core Ranger as well. It's just more difficult to maintain.

    💎 [HUNT] [IH] [JEEP] | Necromancer, Engineer, Revenant | Maguuma | Diamond Legend 💎

  • Auburner.6945Auburner.6945 Member ✭✭✭

    @derd.6413 said:

    @Auburner.6945 said:

    @derd.6413 said:
    i don't see ele getting a new trade-off since since both mechanics makes attunment swapping slower and soulbeast looses their pet when they merge (which is also a trade-off)

    also i think it's more likely that continuum split will take the place of an other shatter skill rather then give mesmer a new f5 (and definitely not a stealth skill) or maybe they're reworking some stuff.

    function gyro is probably gonna get a rework (tho i don't such a trait rework happen)

    Soulbeast gets another skill bar and higher stats without traits, that's nothing for ele. Also, SB can still not merge, they may as well merge and instantly become 2 for healing. If you have to compare specs this way then ele is already lacking. Shades are most likely the best example of what overloads should/could have been.

    soulbeast doesn't get the merging benefits when their pet is out. yes, the numbers need adjusting but there is a trade-off present.
    and if SB really requires an aditional trade-off it's probably gonna be at worst the removal of pet swap rather then pets entirely

    also if you think shades would be good for ele overload i fear you're gonna be extremely disappointed. (cuz they're not)

    Weaver barely gets anything as a trade-off, it's actually a disadvantage, the dual attacks, the reason why d/d weaver struggles to make it. This is the worst spec to have ever been released.

    Tempest's overloads should've been like shades in terms of 900 range drop AoEs, the reason why Scourge is a thing in WvW as it would get blasted in seconds. If overloads had a 2-3s channeling time but a targeted ground AoE, things would've been better.

    For soulbeast, they can still abuse the spec mechanic to heal pets, the thing that they should've traded-off.

    Pull the strings. Watch them dance.

  • Durzlla.6295Durzlla.6295 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @InsaneQR.7412 said:
    For soulbeast I would like to see that beastmode replaces petswap.
    You would benefit from swap traits but no longer could you run a survival pet and a powerhouse.
    You basically specialist into a pet and lose versatility.

    Soulbeast still would be strong but they couldn't pair stealth and CC from an SS with the mobility and heals of an owl.
    And in PvE it would actually improve gameplay and would ease the going out if beastmode drawback because you would get benefits from swap traits.

    This is honestly the only acceptable drawback they could add to Soulbeast imo, and it should’ve been how it was from the start. Especially since the whole thematic of Soulbeast is that you’re so bonded with your pet you can merge to become one, makes no sense that you’d be able to be THAT close to multiple animals at one time.

    Would also fix like all the main balance issues with Soulbeast (no reason to leave beast mode in PvE, too much utility in PvE, clumsiness of 2 pets and no pet swapbin beast mode etc)

    "But my children sing to me. Listen. They sing dark, delicious notes about power and family. As their mother, I have to grant them their wish."

  • Euthymias.7984Euthymias.7984 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 22, 2019

    I think Soulbeast already has a reasoable tradeoff.
    You gain merging skills/stats but lose the utility and additional (albeit often underwhelming) cover/pressure of the pet while merged. You're also locked out of Beast Mode for 10 seconds after coming out of that state so you have to do a bit of management in deciding when to use those skills/swap pets to access the other ones instead of just camping one pet/merge archetype. However, I feel like its still a pure upgrade vs Core just because between Core and Soulbeast, pets dont really change themselves, so I can agree that pets should get something special for being a core ranger.

    In a way, I'd like to see something like a customization option to turn (or buff) the pets into different archetypes like their GW1 counterpart (Dire/Elder/Hearty) with a new command thats usable out of combat to give them a noticeable stat increase while being Core. While Elder is the default, Dire could increase their overall damage and attack rate/movement speed while giving them a slight defense reduction and Hearty could make them more durable at the cost of less damage (as particularly in PvP/WvW, the common complaint was about how fast they die to just random cleave/AoE). Naturally, Soulbeast/Druid would be defaulted to "Elder" (or just make Druid stuck with Hearty instead of cutting everything down by 20%.....) and not have any ability to change from that archetype like Core could.
    Its just an idea, but I think it would be pretty cool.

  • Durzlla.6295Durzlla.6295 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Euthymias.7984 said:
    I think Soulbeast already has a reasoable tradeoff.
    You gain merging skills/stats but lose the utility and additional (albeit often underwhelming) cover/pressure of the pet while merged. You're also locked out of Beast Mode for 10 seconds after coming out of that state so you have to do a bit of management in deciding when to use those skills/swap pets to access the other ones instead of just camping one pet/merge archetype. However, I feel like its still a pure upgrade vs Core just because between Core and Soulbeast, pets dont really change themselves, so I can agree that pets should get something special for being a core ranger.

    In a way, I'd like to see something like a customization option to turn (or buff) the pets into different archetypes like their GW1 counterpart (Dire/Elder/Hearty) with a new command thats usable out of combat to give them a noticeable stat increase while being Core. While Elder is the default, Dire could increase their overall damage and attack rate/movement speed while giving them a slight defense reduction and Hearty could make them more durable at the cost of less damage (as particularly in PvP/WvW, the common complaint was about how fast they die to just random cleave/AoE). Naturally, Soulbeast/Druid would be defaulted to "Elder" (or just make Druid stuck with Hearty instead of cutting everything down by 20%.....) and not have any ability to change from that archetype like Core could.
    Its just an idea, but I think it would be pretty cool.

    The thing is that’s not a REAL drawback, that’s like saying the drawback to Celestial avatar is that you lose access to your damaging abilities, and you have to build up energy to use it, or that continuum split shatters your clones. Yes, those are both drawbacks of the skill, but those are hardly drawbacks of the elite spec as a whole, that’s an entirely new ability you get to freely use at no real cost. If that were a real drawback you would actually see core ranger builds, instead of them literally all becoming soulbeast builds because you just gain utility by slotting Soulbeast.

    However I do like the idea of being able to tweak what kind of pet you’re bringing and have always liked such ideas, and do agree if that were implemented Druid should just be forced to use tanky pets due to like, magic making them tanky and the Druid not having time to train them into being more aggressive or w/e Anet wants to say is the lore eexcuse for the healer not doing damage without being squishy. But I don’t think it’d be the fix all you’re thinking it would be.

    "But my children sing to me. Listen. They sing dark, delicious notes about power and family. As their mother, I have to grant them their wish."

  • Euthymias.7984Euthymias.7984 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 22, 2019

    @Durzlla.6295 said:

    The thing is that’s not a REAL drawback, that’s like saying the drawback to Celestial avatar is that you lose access to your damaging abilities, and you have to build up energy to use it, or that continuum split shatters your clones. Yes, those are both drawbacks of the skill, but those are hardly drawbacks of the elite spec as a whole, that’s an entirely new ability you get to freely use at no real cost. If that were a real drawback you would actually see core ranger builds, instead of them literally all becoming soulbeast builds because you just gain utility by slotting Soulbeast.

    Yeah, I totally understand that. As you said, its a similar case with Chronomancer / Druid in that its just a straight up improvement of its base counterpart (which I agreed with about Soulbeast regarding Core). I'm just taking an approach to making the base have something unique that keeps it attractive enough to consider against Elite Specs vs stripping the Elites themselves for the sake of a tradeoff. Something of a similar approach to what they've done with Rev with its new F2 vs Herald / Renegade F-skills to that effort. I'd like to see something done with similar flavor and impact for base Engineer as well, but I wouldnt know where to start there. Maybe they'll just make Scrapper ditch the toolbelt for Function Gyro related F-skills instead or something.
    ...Unless some of them end up getting reworked to account for tradeoffs much like Berserker has recently.

  • dodgerrule.8739dodgerrule.8739 Member ✭✭✭

    I’d like to see a trade off where all classes get an elite spec that limits them to one weapon

  • MithranArkanere.8957MithranArkanere.8957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    As I mentioned in the update preview, I'd like trade-offs for the remaining 4 elite specializations without a profession mechanic trade-off that allows making changes to core without elites inheriting the changes, to give something that can be buffed to give some extra power to core separately:

    • Engineer - Scrapper

      • Scrapper could use a profession mechanic that is more widely useful in more of PvE since you do not usually need to finish enemies in PvE, and you don't need to revive anyone if everyone is doing their job properly. For example, replacing the Scrapper's F5 toolbelt skill from the elite skill with an "Action Gyro" that stays over the other shoulder of the engineer, and lunges at enemies to deal damage, and that has a bonus functionality and gains charges based on the selected Scrapper Grandmaster trait instead on a fixed time:
      • Action Gyro: Deals damage to target enemy. Maximum count of 3 charges. 5s recharge. Charges can only be earned once every 15 seconds.

        • Adaptive Armor: Action Gyro gains a charge for every 33% of their base health lost. Action Gyro now also gives some barrier and removes a condition.
        • Kinetic Stabilizers: Action Gyro gains a charge whenever an enemy is interrupted (and when hitting enemies with a breakbar,). Action Gyro is now a stun break and stuns the target.
        • Applied Force: Action Gyro gains a charge whenever Applied Force triggers. Action Gyro is now a Blast Finisher, an Explosion, and an Aoe that deals 33% of the main damage to 4 enemies around the main target.
      • This way, core F5 skills could be greatly improved as they'd be exclusive to core engineer.

    • Soulbeast

      • Soulbeast can't use their pets while merged, but their pet mechanic is identical while not in beastmode. So it's an addition, not a tradeoff. Reducing pet stats would be a bad idea for an elite specialization more meant to do DPS, but since beastmode heals the pet when leaving, that's basically like having an extra pet swap. With that in mind, their tradeoff could be a longer pet recharge on defeat as they have two skills to keep the pet from dying, making it riskier.
        But going too high over 60s would be a a tad too long for pet recharge, so instead core ranger could have their pet recharge on death reduced to just 25-45s, while soulbeast and druid would have 60-75s recharge for their pet, and that would help newbies get their pet back sooner as they level up in core maps.

      • Another possibility is giving core ranger an F5 skill that does something that isn't spectacularly strong, but at least unique. For example, using F5 as core ranger could make both your pets do 'tag-combo' attack. You use F5, the other pet appears, both pets use their pet skills, and the pets swap places, like the tag-combo attacks in games like Capcom vs Marvel.

    • Mesmer x2

      • Mesmers don't lose anything when specializing. Since their shatters represent "power", "condi", "CC" and "tank", maybe they could get a 5th shatter that would be "utility", a core-only F5 skill that does something like creating a clone with your alternate weapon set instead with the current, or that shuffles their location with a random clone.
        Then Chronomancer would replace it, and mirage lose it.

    I would also like to see one unique effect for each core specialization that is active only when that specialization is slotted in the Gold-framed third specialization slot.
    That'll ensure core always has some powers elites won't ever have, a few more choices, and it'll make relevant what you put in that slot even for core, so core players learn to value that slot as they level up:

    For example, it could be effects like these. But bear in mind these are just examples:

    • Guardian:

      • Zeal : Virtue of Justice reduces the recharge of symbols by 1s when it triggers.
      • Radiance: When burning caused by you is removed, it causes Burningx3 for 3s on whoever removed it. (9s recharge)
      • Valor: Aegis applied to you now blocks up to 3 attacks for 0.75s after being attacked instead a single attack.
      • Honor: Gain 1% endurance regen for each boon on you.
      • Virtues : Gain the Virtue of Humilty, a toggle skill that when toggled on makes Virtue of Justice give mightx3 for 8s instead causing burning.
    • Revenant:

      • Corruption : Attacking an enemy with 5 or more boons corrupts one of the boons. (9s recharge)
      • Retribution: Gain Vigor when Stability is removed before it ends (9s recharge).
      • Salvation: Gain 25% outgoing healing on allies within the area of your Ventary tablet.
      • Devastation: Vulnerability caused by you can only be partially removed. 1/3 of the stack will survive removal, conversion or transference and remain in the enemy.
      • Invocation: Gain increased energy while out of combat (+25).
    • Warrior:

      • Strength: Gain 10 endurance when taking damage. (5s recharge)
      • Arms: Attacking bleeding enemies extends the duration of bleeding on them by 0.5s.
      • Defense: Retaliation you give to yourself now also scales with Toughness.
      • Tactics: Intercept 1% of damage on allies for each boon you have granted to them. That damage is reduced by 25% when it's deal to you.
      • Discipline: Your burst skills recharge after a weapon swap (9s recharge).
    • Engineer:

      • Explosions: Gain endurance when your explosions hit enemies (5s recharge)
      • Firearms: Bleeding caused on enemies already bleeding will last 10% longer, and critical hits add 1s to bleeding already on target (3s recharge).
      • Inventions: Lose a condition when you lose a boon before it ends by removal, corruption or steal.
      • Alchemy: When you gain or give a boon, a copy of that boon is also given or received to the source or target of the boon for 25% of its duration.
      • Tools: Toolbelt skills gain a second charge, but take 66% longer to recharge.
    • Ranger:

      • Marksmanship: Regain Opening strike when swapping weapons or pets.
      • Skirmishing: The next flanking attack by you or your pet after swapping weapons is unblockable.
      • Wilderness Survival: Your pet is sacrificed when you would take fatal damage, leaving you with 10% HP instead. (90s recharge)
      • Nature Magic: Your pet pulses a boon around itself every 3s based on archetype: Stout-Vigor, Deadly-Might, Versatile-Swiftness, Ferocious-Ferocity, Supportive-Regeneration
      • Beastmastery: Your pet gains 5% of your own attributes.
    • Thief

      • Deadly arts: When poison is removed from enemies that have 6 or more stacks of poison from you, the longest stack will remain.
      • Critical Strikes: Lose Blinded automatically (25s recharge)
      • Shadow Arts: Lose revealed when hit while under 25% health (happens before Last Refuge if it's slotted). (60s recharge)
      • Acrobatics: Gain stabilityx1 for 0.75s while evading.
      • Trickery: Gain a second F3 stolen skill slot that is filled when stealing while the F2 slot is already ocuppied.
    • Elementalist:

      • Fire: Your fire-themed skills deal Burningx1 for 1s (Cooldown: 1s).
      • Water: When Soothing Mist is applied to allies, they gain regeneration for 6s if they do not have regeneration on them, or have regeneration extended by 1s if they already have it.
      • Air: Critical hits from air-themed skills crackle, dealing 33% of that damage to 2 adjacent enemies.
      • Earth: Attackers suffer bleeding for 1s when you are attuned to Earth, receive less damage from bleeding enemies.
      • Arcane: You can now re-activate attunements without leaving them first.
    • Mesmer

      • Domination: Summoning an illusion transfers 3 stacks of vulnerability from you to them. Illusions transfer vulnerability from them to adjacent enemies when they are destroyed.
      • Dueling: Attacks that can hit multiple foes are 10% stronger when they hit a single enemy.
      • Chaos: Clones that are destroyed by enemies explode giving allies a random boon and enemies a random condition from Chaos Aura list. Phantasms destroyed or interrupted before they can be replaced by clones will give allies a random boon and enemies a random condition from the Chaos Storm list. Gain Chaos Aura whenever one of your illusions is destroyed early by enemies (9s cooldown).
      • Inspiration: Your illusions take conditions from adjacent allies (9s cooldown per ally).
      • Illusions: When your illusions are destroyed, they transfer 3 of their conditions to enemies.
    • Necromancer

      • Spite: Gain might when hitting an enemy that more stacks of vulnerability than your stacks of might. Deal vulnerability when hitting an enemy with less stacks of vulnerability than your stacks of might.
      • Curses: Critical hits add 1s duration damage conditions on target (3s cooldown)
      • Death Magic: While at max health and life force, deaths give you Barrier instead life force. When a minion dies, it gives barrier to any remaining minions.
      • Blood Magic: Melee attacks reduce the recharge of skills that can cause bleeding by 1s (1s cooldown) and steal life from bleeding enemies. Heal allies when stealing life.
      • Soul Reaping: 33% of the healing gained while at max health is gained as life force while not under the effects of a Shroud or Barrier.
  • runeblade.7514runeblade.7514 Member ✭✭✭

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:

    • Soulbeast
      • Another possibility is giving core ranger an F5 skill that does something that isn't spectacularly strong, but at least unique. For example, using F5 as core ranger could make both your pets do 'tag-combo' attack. You use F5, the other pet appears, both pets use their pet skills, and the pets swap places, like the tag-combo attacks in games like Capcom vs Marvel.

    I had an Beast master elite spec idea where the F5 is called Command Pet and it gives more control on the pet. Also, it would make the pets stronger.

    Maybe F5 can be that for the core ranger.

    6x warrior/5xRanger/6x Revenant/6x Mesmer/5x Guardian/6x Thief/5x Engineer/5x Necromancer/5x Elementalist

  • MithranArkanere.8957MithranArkanere.8957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @runeblade.7514 said:

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:

    • Soulbeast
      • Another possibility is giving core ranger an F5 skill that does something that isn't spectacularly strong, but at least unique. For example, using F5 as core ranger could make both your pets do 'tag-combo' attack. You use F5, the other pet appears, both pets use their pet skills, and the pets swap places, like the tag-combo attacks in games like Capcom vs Marvel.

    I had an Beast master elite spec idea where the F5 is called Command Pet and it gives more control on the pet. Also, it would make the pets stronger.

    Maybe F5 can be that for the core ranger.

    That would be certainly interesting. Have your character be controlled by AI temporarily, and you get 10 seconds or so of full pet control with all skills, maybe also a 5th extra hidden skill based on pet archetype to make it 5 and fill all 5 weapon slots, since pets have only 3 skills + pet attack.

  • runeblade.7514runeblade.7514 Member ✭✭✭

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:

    @runeblade.7514 said:

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:

    • Soulbeast
      • Another possibility is giving core ranger an F5 skill that does something that isn't spectacularly strong, but at least unique. For example, using F5 as core ranger could make both your pets do 'tag-combo' attack. You use F5, the other pet appears, both pets use their pet skills, and the pets swap places, like the tag-combo attacks in games like Capcom vs Marvel.

    I had an Beast master elite spec idea where the F5 is called Command Pet and it gives more control on the pet. Also, it would make the pets stronger.

    Maybe F5 can be that for the core ranger.

    That would be certainly interesting. Have your character be controlled by AI temporarily, and you get 10 seconds or so of full pet control with all skills, maybe also a 5th extra hidden skill based on pet archetype to make it 5 and fill all 5 weapon slots, since pets have only 3 skills + pet attack.

    I rather not have my character control by AI. I don't want the AI to run off towards the enemy and get me killed. I was thinking more like pressing F5 changes the weapons bar and gives 5 more skills to press.

    6x warrior/5xRanger/6x Revenant/6x Mesmer/5x Guardian/6x Thief/5x Engineer/5x Necromancer/5x Elementalist

  • MithranArkanere.8957MithranArkanere.8957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @runeblade.7514 said:

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:

    @runeblade.7514 said:

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:

    • Soulbeast
      • Another possibility is giving core ranger an F5 skill that does something that isn't spectacularly strong, but at least unique. For example, using F5 as core ranger could make both your pets do 'tag-combo' attack. You use F5, the other pet appears, both pets use their pet skills, and the pets swap places, like the tag-combo attacks in games like Capcom vs Marvel.

    I had an Beast master elite spec idea where the F5 is called Command Pet and it gives more control on the pet. Also, it would make the pets stronger.

    Maybe F5 can be that for the core ranger.

    That would be certainly interesting. Have your character be controlled by AI temporarily, and you get 10 seconds or so of full pet control with all skills, maybe also a 5th extra hidden skill based on pet archetype to make it 5 and fill all 5 weapon slots, since pets have only 3 skills + pet attack.

    I rather not have my character control by AI. I don't want the AI to run off towards the enemy and get me killed. I was thinking more like pressing F5 changes the weapons bar and gives 5 more skills to press.

    Oh. Something more like a kit, flipping over to your pet skills, letting you choose the order in which your pet uses its skills. That'll work too. It could also make the F1 skill temporarily become a ground targeted skill, letting you choose more carefully where your pet goes since the target would be determined when you use the pet skills in your skill bar.

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