Why do clones' condition damage not scale down? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Why do clones' condition damage not scale down?

Meteor.3720Meteor.3720 Member ✭✭✭
edited July 3, 2019 in PVP

Clones' power damage is negligible because their primary purpose is to distract the enemy and provide shatter fodder. But their condition damage is taken from the mesmer instead. Surely this should be equalised and the source of condition damage should be lowered from the clones themselves?

Comments

  • Meteor.3720Meteor.3720 Member ✭✭✭

    It was a genuine question as to what people thought, but generally no I don't think they have.
    A lot of other stuff needs to be nerfed too, but that doesn't mean mesmers are in a perfect state of play.

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 3, 2019

    Looks like you are asking for nerfs to scepter, axe and staff, imo if they nerf conditions of clones they need to buff mesmer a lot to compensate. Otherwise it'll just be an annoying silver farmer and nothing more (as if it wasn't that already).

  • DoomNexus.5324DoomNexus.5324 Member ✭✭✭

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:
    To be honest, don't you think mesmers have been picked on enough now?

    No.
    I've just recently played condi mirage myself a couple times and even for me, someone without any experience with mesmer in general, it was a real nobrainer. Of course it doesn't play very well into classes with lots of condi cleanse but that's to be expected. Mesmers did indeed get tuned down quite a bit (rightfully so) but clones enable them to exaggerate every trait and skill synergy. This should've been done a long time ago actually when Mirage was absolutely broken, instead of nerfing mirage itself and some chrono/core mirage builds (if there were any viable core builds at all) along with it.
    I think clones should merely be there to trick opponents, as shatter fodder and maybe for utility like transfering conditions onto them. They even lower the effectiveness of other classes just by being there, like say Rev by providing additional targets so sword2 and sword3 damage gets split, or ranged classes without pierce by being essentially a meat shield. They shouldn't deal a lot of damage on their own imo, if at all. Like I said, it just exaggerates everything that synergizes well on mesmer, which makes it really hard to balance mesmer properly, as we've seen multiple times in the past.

    @Tayga.3192 said:
    Looks like you are asking for nerfs to scepter, axe and staff, imo if they nerf conditions of clones they need to buff mesmer a lot to compensate. Otherwise it'll just be an annoying silver farmer and nothing more (as if it wasn't that already).

    Yes, they'd need buffs then but it would be way easier to actually balance them properly. Not that I'd go as far as saying Anet would indeed make a good balance but at least they probably couldn't kitten things up as hard as they usually do.

  • Noodle Ant.1605Noodle Ant.1605 Member ✭✭✭

    I am inclined to believe that it is actually a mechanical issue.

    Power dmg is easy to scale down since clones appear to use separate skills from the mesmer, which all appear to have abysmal power scaling (e.g. 0.005 compared to 0.5). This is how i make sense of how anet managed to get clones who use split surge (gs ambush + infinite horizon) to actually do ‘okay’ dmg while every other power dmg the clone does is negligible.

    Condi would appear to be harder, since condies @ lv 80 deal a fixed amount of dmg. 1 unbuffed, +0 condi dmg stack of bleeding will always do 22 dmg/s. Without condi dmg reduction traits/buffs/runes there is no possible way to reduce this number lower than 22.

    I’m sure anet has the means to implement some sort of similarity between the two, but I’m just pointing out that such means do not currently exist, and also that mesmer has evolved through the ages with this, um... feature since the game’s inception.

    pChrono (main), cWeaver and pReaper. An asura who likes snowflakes.

  • witcher.3197witcher.3197 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Because originally power builds were designed to do burst damage through shatters and only use clones as ammo.

    Condition builds were supposed to be duelists who wear down targets over time with high sustain, and clones doing decent condition damage allowed mesmers to build for more sustain while still doing damage.

    How they handled clones set burst and attrition builds apart.

    Then Anet decided that condition damage needs to be as bursty as power, got rid of all tanky condi amulets, and completely ruined PvP design in this game.

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 3, 2019

    Because that would mean that mesmer will gain real skill (with active effects who do something) on weapon to compensate the passive condi application from clone and that would be op. :#

  • Mbelch.9028Mbelch.9028 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:
    To be honest, don't you think mesmers have been picked on enough now?

    Condi mirage is still incredibly dumb. It's just not worth 2 players anymore in ranked, so people stopped complaining as much. So... no.

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Highly doubt they want to do a complete mesmer rework of all traitlines to give all phantasm/clone damage to mesmer himself.
    If ppl complain about CI, I can understand, if ppl just complain about mesmer now...they must be incredibly dumb (C)

  • Vague Memory.2817Vague Memory.2817 Member ✭✭✭

    Guys there is like one trait build for Mirage left after the nerfs. If you remove clone torment on shatter, clone ambush attack, and clone autoattacks it will be as dead and unviable as power chrono. There wouldn't be any specs that could kill anyone without support. Can't believe people still think mesmers are too powerful after everything and don't even mention other class elite specs that are frankly several tiers higher than any Mes spec. Yes Mes have had illusions as a class mechanic since its inception, get use to it. Asking for more nerfs to the class is truly ludicrous and quite unfair.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Meteor.3720 said:
    Clones' power damage is negligible because their primary purpose is to distract the enemy and provide shatter fodder. But their condition damage is taken from the mesmer instead. Surely this should be equalised and the source of condition damage should be lowered from the clones themselves?

    They do actually. The auto attack chain for clones are noticably slower than the mesmer themselves.

    Scepter clones will maintain three stacks of torment. That's not really much of anything really.

    Staff clones will maintain 3 stacks of bleed, and sometimes dropping from 3 stacks of bleed down to 2 stacks and a torment. Or 2 stacks and a burn. Again, not really that big.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • Meteor.3720Meteor.3720 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vague Memory.2817 said:
    Guys there is like one trait build for Mirage left after the nerfs. If you remove clone torment on shatter, clone ambush attack, and clone autoattacks it will be as dead and unviable as power chrono. There wouldn't be any specs that could kill anyone without support. Can't believe people still think mesmers are too powerful after everything and don't even mention other class elite specs that are frankly several tiers higher than any Mes spec. Yes Mes have had illusions as a class mechanic since its inception, get use to it. Asking for more nerfs to the class is truly ludicrous and quite unfair.

    I don't think anyone is suggesting removing clone torment on shatter or clone ambush attacks. Just reducing the passive condition damage from autos.
    Someone in the thread has suggested that were the condition damage of clones toned down, there could be buffs to mesmer to compensate.

    Also I have already said above that loads of other classes need nerfs as well, so it's not ignoring the other high tier specs. You can still talk about odd class mechanics even if they're not single-handedly dominating the meta.

  • Meteor.3720Meteor.3720 Member ✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Meteor.3720 said:
    Clones' power damage is negligible because their primary purpose is to distract the enemy and provide shatter fodder. But their condition damage is taken from the mesmer instead. Surely this should be equalised and the source of condition damage should be lowered from the clones themselves?

    They do actually. The auto attack chain for clones are noticably slower than the mesmer themselves.

    Scepter clones will maintain three stacks of torment. That's not really much of anything really.

    Staff clones will maintain 3 stacks of bleed, and sometimes dropping from 3 stacks of bleed down to 2 stacks and a torment. Or 2 stacks and a burn. Again, not really that big.

    This thread is about equalising the condition and power damage of clones. Saying that they only inflict a couple of stacks of various conditions misses the point - 3 stacks of torment, using the mesmer's condition damage, still hits far higher than a sword clone auto attacking you.

  • Strider.7849Strider.7849 Member ✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Meteor.3720 said:
    Clones' power damage is negligible because their primary purpose is to distract the enemy and provide shatter fodder. But their condition damage is taken from the mesmer instead. Surely this should be equalised and the source of condition damage should be lowered from the clones themselves?

    They do actually. The auto attack chain for clones are noticably slower than the mesmer themselves.

    Scepter clones will maintain three stacks of torment. That's not really much of anything really.

    Staff clones will maintain 3 stacks of bleed, and sometimes dropping from 3 stacks of bleed down to 2 stacks and a torment. Or 2 stacks and a burn. Again, not really that big.

    Staff clones also apply burning and I believe vulnerability. Have you ever tried using expertise as a stat as well and/or the Dueling traitline? Those bleed stacks on staff can straight up make your clones kill a player without ever having to use an attack. Try it on a golem and watch how fast it dies. In a group fights this isn't a problem but in a 1v1 with kiting/invuls/stealth this can be not fun to fight against at all. I'm saying this as someone who has played all aspects of mesmer, not simply a person asking for "nerfs". I would be all for have the clones do zero damage irrespective of the fact they attack slower and instead pour that damage back into the Mesmer.

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