Thank you ANET for temporarily blocking CI trait in PvP — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Thank you ANET for temporarily blocking CI trait in PvP

BadMed.3846BadMed.3846 Member ✭✭✭
edited August 3, 2019 in Mesmer

This trait had been causing lot of grief and thanks for not waiting till the next balance patch for taking action. Such swift action to block out of control mechanics is highly appreciated.

<1

Comments

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Good, good, let the vindication flow through you.

    (disclaimer - I neither care about pvp anymore since years or use CI anyway)

    My ears, how are you! | Kourna Jackrabbit for default Springer

  • BadMed.3846BadMed.3846 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ghos.1326 very well said in detail. I don't know why so many mesmers think that it was perfectly OK and didn't need a nerf. Again, there are too many mesmers in game today as they've adopted the profession to abuse such traits. I'm sure there are old school mesmers in here who believe a change was definitely required.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @BadMed.3846 said:
    @Ghos.1326 very well said in detail. I don't know why so many mesmers think that it was perfectly OK and didn't need a nerf. Again, there are too many mesmers in game today as they've adopted the profession to abuse such traits. I'm sure there are old school mesmers in here who believe a change was definitely required.

    nobody says CI was bad, what is bad is preety much every single other trait we have, i personally dont care, gona whoop peoples kitten with a different build. keep on whining lad

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @BadMed.3846 said:
    @Ghos.1326 very well said in detail. I don't know why so many mesmers think that it was perfectly OK and didn't need a nerf. Again, there are too many mesmers in game today as they've adopted the profession to abuse such traits. I'm sure there are old school mesmers in here who believe a change was definitely required.

    nobody says CI was bad, what is bad is preety much every single other trait we have, i personally dont care, gona whoop peoples kitten with a different build. keep on whining lad

    He never said CI was bad either, he pointed that it was a bit overperforming. Reading 101....

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @BadMed.3846 said:
    @Ghos.1326 very well said in detail. I don't know why so many mesmers think that it was perfectly OK and didn't need a nerf. Again, there are too many mesmers in game today as they've adopted the profession to abuse such traits. I'm sure there are old school mesmers in here who believe a change was definitely required.

    nobody says CI was bad, what is bad is preety much every single other trait we have, i personally dont care, gona whoop peoples kitten with a different build. keep on whining lad

    He never said CI was bad either, he pointed that it was a bit overperforming. Reading 101....

    reading 101 compared to understanding 101. if you have kitten trait and a very good one, together they are alright. if you remove the amazing one and leave the kitten. you are left with kitten.

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @BadMed.3846 said:
    @Ghos.1326 very well said in detail. I don't know why so many mesmers think that it was perfectly OK and didn't need a nerf. Again, there are too many mesmers in game today as they've adopted the profession to abuse such traits. I'm sure there are old school mesmers in here who believe a change was definitely required.

    nobody says CI was bad, what is bad is preety much every single other trait we have, i personally dont care, gona whoop peoples kitten with a different build. keep on whining lad

    He never said CI was bad either, he pointed that it was a bit overperforming. Reading 101....

    reading 101 compared to understanding 101. if you have kitten trait and a very good one, together they are alright. if you remove the amazing one and leave the kitten. you are left with kitten.

    Understanding 101: if something overperforms way too well, it's not in a balanced or fair state. Therefore it needs toned down.
    Also understanding 101: Claiming something is bad is to claim that it's underwhelming and borderline useless, if not 100% useless.

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 3, 2019

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @BadMed.3846 said:
    This trait had been causing lot of grief and thanks for not waiting till the next balance patch for taking action. Such swift action to block out of control mechanics is highly appreciated.

    June 23, 2015 Specialization update:
    Updated this trait to reflect the introduction of the specialization mechanic.
    After interrupting a foe, gain 5 stacks of might for 10 seconds and apply a second random boon to yourself.
    took em 4 years, if you consider that quick then lul.

    Before mirage, the trait was actually fairly balanced because mesmer couldn't put out as much instantaneous pressure to combine with its interrupts.

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @BadMed.3846 said:
    @Ghos.1326 very well said in detail. I don't know why so many mesmers think that it was perfectly OK and didn't need a nerf. Again, there are too many mesmers in game today as they've adopted the profession to abuse such traits. I'm sure there are old school mesmers in here who believe a change was definitely required.

    nobody says CI was bad, what is bad is preety much every single other trait we have, i personally dont care, gona whoop peoples kitten with a different build. keep on whining lad

    He never said CI was bad either, he pointed that it was a bit overperforming. Reading 101....

    reading 101 compared to understanding 101. if you have kitten trait and a very good one, together they are alright. if you remove the amazing one and leave the kitten. you are left with kitten.

    Understanding 101: if something overperforms way too well, it's not in a balanced or fair state. Therefore it needs toned down.
    Also understanding 101: Claiming something is bad is to claim that it's underwhelming and borderline useless, if not 100% useless.

    ehh, since when something being bad means its useless.
    scepter 1 deals around 700 damage, its kitten bad. doesnt mean im not gonna use it, better to use kitten power then use nothing.
    and if you agree with their reasoning you should look into the mirror, warriors rampage is OP, lets not nerf it. remove it from the game, that will show them!.
    holo is broken, kitten it holo cant be played in pvp now lelel. in 3months we will do more nerfs and you will get your power back exept we will remove other things so its not gonna be usable anyways lelele.

    as for what was before mirage. cant say what was cuz i didnt play back then, but the fact that mirage didnt exist back then proves nothing, since other broken elites didnt exist as well.

  • Levetty.1279Levetty.1279 Member ✭✭✭

    @BadMed.3846 said:
    This trait had been causing lot of grief and thanks for not waiting till the next balance patch for taking action. Such swift action to block out of control mechanics is highly appreciated.

    They literally just had a balance patch where they did nothing about it, They could have easily slapped an ICD or nerfed some numbers while they figure out what they want to do with it. Instead they removed a trait from the game and gave the same explanation that they did for Smiter's boon back in GW which they never went back to fix.

    How is this not raising major red flags for you?

  • Delofasht.4231Delofasht.4231 Member ✭✭✭

    Time to rebuild the “kill yourself” Mirage bunker again everyone. If they thought CI was annoying... hah.

  • Teefy.5016Teefy.5016 Member ✭✭

    so you came here to gloat, on the mesmer forum. i hope you're enjoying the show.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @Teefy.5016 said:
    so you came here to gloat, on the mesmer forum. i hope you're enjoying the show.

    he is one of the people that think that landin CI = enemy instantly dies, and that running cleansing is a reliable way of removing stability ;p

  • Kicast.1459Kicast.1459 Member ✭✭✭

    While we are at it...can you disable sword 2 on thief please ?
    Just because.
    Thanks.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 5, 2019

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Vincenzo.3145 said:

    "I don't wanna play smart and learn the game. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhh" kitten mate. Don't play PvP then.

    /wiki conditions

    /wiki resistance

    Counterplay is a staple of this game. Stop using brainless tactics and treating this like it's CoD and stop talking about mechanics until you realize that you have everything you need to deal with this and that you're the problem with game balance and why Anet nerfs everything.

    Crybabies. If anyone's causing grief, it's you lot.

    "Counterplay is a staple of this game. Stop using brainless tactics and treating this like it's CoD and stop talking about mechanics until you realize that you have everything you need to deal with this and that you're the problem with game balance and why Anet nerfs everything."

    Stability gets ripped by Arcane Thievery or Sigil of Annulment on weapon swap. These two abilities can be used every 20 and 18 seconds respectively, much lower than the cooldowns for most stability/resistance skills. In other words, every time you pop stab/resistance, the mesmer can strip it.

    • If you're fighting a smart enemy, they will wait to use their stunbreaks/stab/resistance for when they need to break stun/clear conditions. So, you're guaranteed at least one free cc if your timing isn't garbage. Then, after they pop their stab/resistance, you can strip it with Arcane Thievery OR Sigil of Annulment. If they happen to have a second source of stab/resistance and they use it, you can strip it again with the one you didn't use. You can activate one of them roughly every 10 seconds if you rotate them properly. Thus, completely denying your enemies' the ability to "counterplay" the damage.
    • If you're fighting a dumb enemy, they will pop their stab/resistance before they need to and you can just wait it out before loading up them up with conditions and CCs.

    -the sound of multiple mesmer minds being blown at the exact same time-

    You should also read one of my previous posts where I address all the mesmer whining about how "bad" this class is.
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/988654#Comment_988654

    "Crybabies. If anyone's causing grief, it's you lot."

    You also forgot about the optional boon strip on shatter and because shatters also tee hee... pretending like stability and resistance is a counter to this is silly. The only skills that counter this build are warrior stances and their "shake it off shout" and that only goes so far even so that leaves 1.5 classes that counter this play style of the possible 8. if there were realistically 3-4 classes that counter this crazyness (not counting another mesmer itself) and playstyle people wouldn't have a problem with it.
    Realisticly i count 1: thief and 0.5 being warrior.

    The only way for me to even fight a CI using mesmer with a necro is to just run at or away from them and not use any skills until they use a power lock in which i know i have about 3-5 seconds to attack before its not my turn again. This can be several seconds of incoming damage i just have to eat as trying to counter attack or use skills with cast times lead to being double punished by daze and being immobilized making my super limited dodges unusable. Even if i say try to apply stability to myself which is very limited there is no guarantee that arcane thievery, annulment, or boon strip on shatter wont quickly remove it (happens more than you think) So while he tires to call out that stability and resistance are counters (of course they are mechanically speaking) they just are not reliable ones because most or alot of CI builds include tools to easily deal with them. If those defensive boons still pulsed yes they would be counters but only one class has that function now and thats warrior. Everyone else is SoL. I just glad anet is listening for a change this gives me some faith that they are willing to listen to the majority of the community and not ignore something (despite doing it for a few years) CI should have been culled back in the days of chrono if you ask me.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Vincenzo.3145 said:

    "I don't wanna play smart and learn the game. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhh" kitten mate. Don't play PvP then.

    /wiki conditions

    /wiki resistance

    Counterplay is a staple of this game. Stop using brainless tactics and treating this like it's CoD and stop talking about mechanics until you realize that you have everything you need to deal with this and that you're the problem with game balance and why Anet nerfs everything.

    Crybabies. If anyone's causing grief, it's you lot.

    "Counterplay is a staple of this game. Stop using brainless tactics and treating this like it's CoD and stop talking about mechanics until you realize that you have everything you need to deal with this and that you're the problem with game balance and why Anet nerfs everything."

    Stability gets ripped by Arcane Thievery or Sigil of Annulment on weapon swap. These two abilities can be used every 20 and 18 seconds respectively, much lower than the cooldowns for most stability/resistance skills. In other words, every time you pop stab/resistance, the mesmer can strip it.

    • If you're fighting a smart enemy, they will wait to use their stunbreaks/stab/resistance for when they need to break stun/clear conditions. So, you're guaranteed at least one free cc if your timing isn't garbage. Then, after they pop their stab/resistance, you can strip it with Arcane Thievery OR Sigil of Annulment. If they happen to have a second source of stab/resistance and they use it, you can strip it again with the one you didn't use. You can activate one of them roughly every 10 seconds if you rotate them properly. Thus, completely denying your enemies' the ability to "counterplay" the damage.
    • If you're fighting a dumb enemy, they will pop their stab/resistance before they need to and you can just wait it out before loading up them up with conditions and CCs.

    -the sound of multiple mesmer minds being blown at the exact same time-

    You should also read one of my previous posts where I address all the mesmer whining about how "bad" this class is.
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/988654#Comment_988654

    "Crybabies. If anyone's causing grief, it's you lot."

    You also forgot about the optional boon strip on shatter and because shatters also tee hee... pretending like stability and resistance is a counter to this is silly. The only skills that counter this build are warrior stances and their "shake it off shout" and that only goes so far even so that leaves 1.5 classes that counter this play style of the possible 8. if there were realistically 3-4 classes that counter this crazyness (not counting another mesmer itself) and playstyle people wouldn't have a problem with it.
    Realisticly i count 1: thief and 0.5 being warrior.

    The only way for me to even fight a CI using mesmer with a necro is to just run at or away from them and not use any skills until they use a power lock in which i know i have about 3-5 seconds to attack before its not my turn again. This can be several seconds of incoming damage i just have to eat as trying to counter attack or use skills with cast times lead to being double punished by daze and being immobilized making my super limited dodges unusable. Even if i say try to apply stability to myself which is very limited there is no guarantee that arcane thievery, annulment, or boon strip on shatter wont quickly remove it (happens more than you think) So while he tires to call out that stability and resistance are counters (of course they are mechanically speaking) they just are not reliable ones because most or alot of CI builds include tools to easily deal with them. If those defensive boons still pulsed yes they would be counters but only one class has that function now and thats warrior. Everyone else is SoL. I just glad anet is listening for a change this gives me some faith that they are willing to listen to the majority of the community and not ignore something (despite doing it for a few years) CI should have been culled back in the days of chrono if you ask me.

    as a necro, the game is rigged against you from the start my man. against CI its autolose almost as much as mesmer is autolose against thief.
    try stowing. you also asume that every mesmer lands every MoD, its unrealistic. if everyone landed everything the person with the biggest stick would always win

  • Kylden Ar.3724Kylden Ar.3724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teefy.5016 said:
    so you came here to gloat, on the mesmer forum. i hope you're enjoying the show.

    He came here to troll.

    How many times we gotta tell you GRIND IS NOT CONTENT there ANet?

    Leader of Tyrian Adventure Corp [TACO], [RaW][TACO] Alliance, Kaineng.

  • BadMed.3846BadMed.3846 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:

    @Teefy.5016 said:
    so you came here to gloat, on the mesmer forum. i hope you're enjoying the show.

    He came here to troll.

    It's about relevance. Mesmer forum is not a mesmers' hangout. It's a forum subsection that relates to the game profession Mesmer. So, it fits in nicely here.

    Go away with your personal attacks and trolls. My skin is too thick for your needles.

  • Kylden Ar.3724Kylden Ar.3724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @BadMed.3846 said:

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:

    @Teefy.5016 said:
    so you came here to gloat, on the mesmer forum. i hope you're enjoying the show.

    He came here to troll.

    It's about relevance. Mesmer forum is not a mesmers' hangout. It's a forum subsection that relates to the game profession Mesmer. So, it fits in nicely here.

    Go away with your personal attacks and trolls. My skin is too thick for your needles.

    the sheer fact that you are so upset to roam these forums just to whine on a class means your sink aint as thick as you think :cold_sweat:

    Indeed.

    How many times we gotta tell you GRIND IS NOT CONTENT there ANet?

    Leader of Tyrian Adventure Corp [TACO], [RaW][TACO] Alliance, Kaineng.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Vincenzo.3145 said:

    "I don't wanna play smart and learn the game. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhh" kitten mate. Don't play PvP then.

    /wiki conditions

    /wiki resistance

    Counterplay is a staple of this game. Stop using brainless tactics and treating this like it's CoD and stop talking about mechanics until you realize that you have everything you need to deal with this and that you're the problem with game balance and why Anet nerfs everything.

    Crybabies. If anyone's causing grief, it's you lot.

    "Counterplay is a staple of this game. Stop using brainless tactics and treating this like it's CoD and stop talking about mechanics until you realize that you have everything you need to deal with this and that you're the problem with game balance and why Anet nerfs everything."

    Stability gets ripped by Arcane Thievery or Sigil of Annulment on weapon swap. These two abilities can be used every 20 and 18 seconds respectively, much lower than the cooldowns for most stability/resistance skills. In other words, every time you pop stab/resistance, the mesmer can strip it.

    • If you're fighting a smart enemy, they will wait to use their stunbreaks/stab/resistance for when they need to break stun/clear conditions. So, you're guaranteed at least one free cc if your timing isn't garbage. Then, after they pop their stab/resistance, you can strip it with Arcane Thievery OR Sigil of Annulment. If they happen to have a second source of stab/resistance and they use it, you can strip it again with the one you didn't use. You can activate one of them roughly every 10 seconds if you rotate them properly. Thus, completely denying your enemies' the ability to "counterplay" the damage.
    • If you're fighting a dumb enemy, they will pop their stab/resistance before they need to and you can just wait it out before loading up them up with conditions and CCs.

    -the sound of multiple mesmer minds being blown at the exact same time-

    You should also read one of my previous posts where I address all the mesmer whining about how "bad" this class is.
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/988654#Comment_988654

    "Crybabies. If anyone's causing grief, it's you lot."

    You also forgot about the optional boon strip on shatter and because shatters also tee hee... pretending like stability and resistance is a counter to this is silly. The only skills that counter this build are warrior stances and their "shake it off shout" and that only goes so far even so that leaves 1.5 classes that counter this play style of the possible 8. if there were realistically 3-4 classes that counter this crazyness (not counting another mesmer itself) and playstyle people wouldn't have a problem with it.
    Realisticly i count 1: thief and 0.5 being warrior.

    The only way for me to even fight a CI using mesmer with a necro is to just run at or away from them and not use any skills until they use a power lock in which i know i have about 3-5 seconds to attack before its not my turn again. This can be several seconds of incoming damage i just have to eat as trying to counter attack or use skills with cast times lead to being double punished by daze and being immobilized making my super limited dodges unusable. Even if i say try to apply stability to myself which is very limited there is no guarantee that arcane thievery, annulment, or boon strip on shatter wont quickly remove it (happens more than you think) So while he tires to call out that stability and resistance are counters (of course they are mechanically speaking) they just are not reliable ones because most or alot of CI builds include tools to easily deal with them. If those defensive boons still pulsed yes they would be counters but only one class has that function now and thats warrior. Everyone else is SoL. I just glad anet is listening for a change this gives me some faith that they are willing to listen to the majority of the community and not ignore something (despite doing it for a few years) CI should have been culled back in the days of chrono if you ask me.

    as a necro, the game is rigged against you from the start my man. against CI its autolose almost as much as mesmer is autolose against thief.
    try stowing. you also asume that every mesmer lands every MoD, its unrealistic. if everyone landed everything the person with the biggest stick would always win

    Incorrect the game should never be an "Auto loose" thats where fair play and skill come in to play. However CI ontop of current meta builds for mesmer is a bit over the top. A class that plays with a lock down style preventing you from using skills or moving while having tons of i frames and has some of the highest if not the highest instant ramp on condition burst in the game.... pifft. Even without CI Mirage's condition pressure is still strong heck even yesterday i got chain cc'ed into 22 torment 27 bleed + some confusion on the side. YOU 100% DO NOT NEED a trait like CI its just doing the extra imo. People proved that yesterday time and time again. Remember its not just CI its everything else as a whole sitting along side it. Personally if the damage and condition ramp was toned way down to the ground people probably wouldnt care about CI. Imagine having very slow ramp instead of instant condition pressure that melts then the lockdown time that combos with CI provide would be fine but thats not the reality. The reality is is that a single phantom skill such as the duelest can proc 10-15 bleeds by itself.

    Moving on to the necro statement.... of course most match ups are not in its favor, however that does not mean you shouldn't feel like you dont have a chance to make a play. If i feel like I have a chance and "fail or make too many mistakes or go about something the wrong way." its whatever gg well played. The difference between having a chance to make a play and just being silenced for eternity is night and day I have to say. Even if I lose a bad match up. If i feel i had a chance to do something im ok with that. CI adds enough pressure that it kind of prevents that and not just for necros.

    Just like you shouldnt say mesmer = auto lose to thief... thats 100% not the case. Ive never seen a mesmer build instantly go down too a thief even more so if the mesmer is experienced in any shape or form they almost always have a chance to make plays and a chance to win the outcome of that matchup. Is it harder yes because thief just happens to have some good tools to counter mesmer a bit.

    If you think something is a "auto lose" right out the gate is just as bad as starting a pvp match and then sitting afk in base because you "think you cant win" because your first few skirmishes didnt go your way.

    TLDR
    No class should just be auto lose to any other class even if the odds are against your favor. Thinking this way is not a healthy for the balance of the game. Yes not every matchup will be on equal footing that does not mean one profession will auto lose to another. If in the event any particular profession is approaching this level against any other profession it should be dealt with. Every other profession got nipped in the butt when it had something similar in their own way. CI should have been looked at long before now. Just be happy that mesmer is going to get yet again another rework because of it.

  • yusayu.3629yusayu.3629 Member ✭✭✭

    Again, people cry about Mesmer because they don't know how to play and ANet listens to them.

    If people don't know how to use stability, reflects and condicleanse, ANet shouldn't cater to those people.

  • BadMed.3846BadMed.3846 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 6, 2019

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @BadMed.3846 said:

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:

    @Teefy.5016 said:
    so you came here to gloat, on the mesmer forum. i hope you're enjoying the show.

    He came here to troll.

    It's about relevance. Mesmer forum is not a mesmers' hangout. It's a forum subsection that relates to the game profession Mesmer. So, it fits in nicely here.

    Go away with your personal attacks and trolls. My skin is too thick for your needles.

    the sheer fact that you are so upset to roam these forums just to whine on a class means your skin aint as thick as you think :cold_sweat:

    The sheer fact that it bothers you that I call out a good decision related to mesmers in a Mesmer forums is reflective of your deep pain from some kind of open nerf wounds that need some fresh salt on them.

  • BadMed.3846BadMed.3846 Member ✭✭✭

    @yusayu.3629 said:
    Again, people cry about Mesmer because they don't know how to play and ANet listens to them.

    If people don't know how to use stability, reflects and condicleanse, ANet shouldn't cater to those people.

    Again mesmers use a pointless argument to defend broken mechanics. It can't really end here. CI is just the start. We're waiting on Mantras change next. Mirage is far from fixed. It is utterly broken still.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Vincenzo.3145 said:

    "I don't wanna play smart and learn the game. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhh" kitten mate. Don't play PvP then.

    /wiki conditions

    /wiki resistance

    Counterplay is a staple of this game. Stop using brainless tactics and treating this like it's CoD and stop talking about mechanics until you realize that you have everything you need to deal with this and that you're the problem with game balance and why Anet nerfs everything.

    Crybabies. If anyone's causing grief, it's you lot.

    "Counterplay is a staple of this game. Stop using brainless tactics and treating this like it's CoD and stop talking about mechanics until you realize that you have everything you need to deal with this and that you're the problem with game balance and why Anet nerfs everything."

    Stability gets ripped by Arcane Thievery or Sigil of Annulment on weapon swap. These two abilities can be used every 20 and 18 seconds respectively, much lower than the cooldowns for most stability/resistance skills. In other words, every time you pop stab/resistance, the mesmer can strip it.

    • If you're fighting a smart enemy, they will wait to use their stunbreaks/stab/resistance for when they need to break stun/clear conditions. So, you're guaranteed at least one free cc if your timing isn't garbage. Then, after they pop their stab/resistance, you can strip it with Arcane Thievery OR Sigil of Annulment. If they happen to have a second source of stab/resistance and they use it, you can strip it again with the one you didn't use. You can activate one of them roughly every 10 seconds if you rotate them properly. Thus, completely denying your enemies' the ability to "counterplay" the damage.
    • If you're fighting a dumb enemy, they will pop their stab/resistance before they need to and you can just wait it out before loading up them up with conditions and CCs.

    -the sound of multiple mesmer minds being blown at the exact same time-

    You should also read one of my previous posts where I address all the mesmer whining about how "bad" this class is.
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/988654#Comment_988654

    "Crybabies. If anyone's causing grief, it's you lot."

    You also forgot about the optional boon strip on shatter and because shatters also tee hee... pretending like stability and resistance is a counter to this is silly. The only skills that counter this build are warrior stances and their "shake it off shout" and that only goes so far even so that leaves 1.5 classes that counter this play style of the possible 8. if there were realistically 3-4 classes that counter this crazyness (not counting another mesmer itself) and playstyle people wouldn't have a problem with it.
    Realisticly i count 1: thief and 0.5 being warrior.

    The only way for me to even fight a CI using mesmer with a necro is to just run at or away from them and not use any skills until they use a power lock in which i know i have about 3-5 seconds to attack before its not my turn again. This can be several seconds of incoming damage i just have to eat as trying to counter attack or use skills with cast times lead to being double punished by daze and being immobilized making my super limited dodges unusable. Even if i say try to apply stability to myself which is very limited there is no guarantee that arcane thievery, annulment, or boon strip on shatter wont quickly remove it (happens more than you think) So while he tires to call out that stability and resistance are counters (of course they are mechanically speaking) they just are not reliable ones because most or alot of CI builds include tools to easily deal with them. If those defensive boons still pulsed yes they would be counters but only one class has that function now and thats warrior. Everyone else is SoL. I just glad anet is listening for a change this gives me some faith that they are willing to listen to the majority of the community and not ignore something (despite doing it for a few years) CI should have been culled back in the days of chrono if you ask me.

    as a necro, the game is rigged against you from the start my man. against CI its autolose almost as much as mesmer is autolose against thief.
    try stowing. you also asume that every mesmer lands every MoD, its unrealistic. if everyone landed everything the person with the biggest stick would always win

    Incorrect the game should never be an "Auto loose" thats where fair play and skill come in to play. However CI ontop of current meta builds for mesmer is a bit over the top. A class that plays with a lock down style preventing you from using skills or moving while having tons of i frames and has some of the highest if not the highest instant ramp on condition burst in the game.... pifft. Even without CI Mirage's condition pressure is still strong heck even yesterday i got chain cc'ed into 22 torment 27 bleed + some confusion on the side. YOU 100% DO NOT NEED a trait like CI its just doing the extra imo. People proved that yesterday time and time again. Remember its not just CI its everything else as a whole sitting along side it. Personally if the damage and condition ramp was toned way down to the ground people probably wouldnt care about CI. Imagine having very slow ramp instead of instant condition pressure that melts then the lockdown time that combos with CI provide would be fine but thats not the reality. The reality is is that a single phantom skill such as the duelest can proc 10-15 bleeds by itself.

    Moving on to the necro statement.... of course most match ups are not in its favor, however that does not mean you shouldn't feel like you dont have a chance to make a play. If i feel like I have a chance and "fail or make too many mistakes or go about something the wrong way." its whatever gg well played. The difference between having a chance to make a play and just being silenced for eternity is night and day I have to say. Even if I lose a bad match up. If i feel i had a chance to do something im ok with that. CI adds enough pressure that it kind of prevents that and not just for necros.

    Just like you shouldnt say mesmer = auto lose to thief... thats 100% not the case. Ive never seen a mesmer build instantly go down too a thief even more so if the mesmer is experienced in any shape or form they almost always have a chance to make plays and a chance to win the outcome of that matchup. Is it harder yes because thief just happens to have some good tools to counter mesmer a bit.

    If you think something is a "auto lose" right out the gate is just as bad as starting a pvp match and then sitting afk in base because you "think you cant win" because your first few skirmishes didnt go your way.

    TLDR
    No class should just be auto lose to any other class even if the odds are against your favor. Thinking this way is not a healthy for the balance of the game. Yes not every matchup will be on equal footing that does not mean one profession will auto lose to another. If in the event any particular profession is approaching this level against any other profession it should be dealt with. Every other profession got nipped in the butt when it had something similar in their own way. CI should have been looked at long before now. Just be happy that mesmer is going to get yet again another rework because of it.

    the reality is that single skill like dualist needs you to stand still for 5s to eat entire channel, then not cleans it at all for another 8s to deliver 10k dmg, meanwhile you get charged by warrior, fail to dodge and lose that 10k. as for mirage vs thief, you have no chance at all. you dont instantly die but you are preety much a corpse that is still twitching.

    most dmg from cmirage comes froms staff ambush ( 1s channel, long travel time, can be sidestepped )
    duelist ( channel into channel )
    staff 3 ( depends on rng crits channel and blees )
    all of those are slow skills, easy to dodge and counter, without CI there is only pistol 5 to make them stick, so right now to land any of them you have to spam this kitten so kitten much that enemies run out of defensive options, and thats why when I fight warrior, its a 60s war of attrition where in any moment he can just decide to walk away, i cant stop him at all from leaving.

    as for unwinnable 1v1s, developers gave thief plasma, they didnt take it away, so they WANT thief to autowin 1v1 with cmirage, thats it.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 6, 2019

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Vincenzo.3145 said:

    "I don't wanna play smart and learn the game. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhh" kitten mate. Don't play PvP then.

    /wiki conditions

    /wiki resistance

    Counterplay is a staple of this game. Stop using brainless tactics and treating this like it's CoD and stop talking about mechanics until you realize that you have everything you need to deal with this and that you're the problem with game balance and why Anet nerfs everything.

    Crybabies. If anyone's causing grief, it's you lot.

    "Counterplay is a staple of this game. Stop using brainless tactics and treating this like it's CoD and stop talking about mechanics until you realize that you have everything you need to deal with this and that you're the problem with game balance and why Anet nerfs everything."

    Stability gets ripped by Arcane Thievery or Sigil of Annulment on weapon swap. These two abilities can be used every 20 and 18 seconds respectively, much lower than the cooldowns for most stability/resistance skills. In other words, every time you pop stab/resistance, the mesmer can strip it.

    • If you're fighting a smart enemy, they will wait to use their stunbreaks/stab/resistance for when they need to break stun/clear conditions. So, you're guaranteed at least one free cc if your timing isn't garbage. Then, after they pop their stab/resistance, you can strip it with Arcane Thievery OR Sigil of Annulment. If they happen to have a second source of stab/resistance and they use it, you can strip it again with the one you didn't use. You can activate one of them roughly every 10 seconds if you rotate them properly. Thus, completely denying your enemies' the ability to "counterplay" the damage.
    • If you're fighting a dumb enemy, they will pop their stab/resistance before they need to and you can just wait it out before loading up them up with conditions and CCs.

    -the sound of multiple mesmer minds being blown at the exact same time-

    You should also read one of my previous posts where I address all the mesmer whining about how "bad" this class is.
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/988654#Comment_988654

    "Crybabies. If anyone's causing grief, it's you lot."

    You also forgot about the optional boon strip on shatter and because shatters also tee hee... pretending like stability and resistance is a counter to this is silly. The only skills that counter this build are warrior stances and their "shake it off shout" and that only goes so far even so that leaves 1.5 classes that counter this play style of the possible 8. if there were realistically 3-4 classes that counter this crazyness (not counting another mesmer itself) and playstyle people wouldn't have a problem with it.
    Realisticly i count 1: thief and 0.5 being warrior.

    The only way for me to even fight a CI using mesmer with a necro is to just run at or away from them and not use any skills until they use a power lock in which i know i have about 3-5 seconds to attack before its not my turn again. This can be several seconds of incoming damage i just have to eat as trying to counter attack or use skills with cast times lead to being double punished by daze and being immobilized making my super limited dodges unusable. Even if i say try to apply stability to myself which is very limited there is no guarantee that arcane thievery, annulment, or boon strip on shatter wont quickly remove it (happens more than you think) So while he tires to call out that stability and resistance are counters (of course they are mechanically speaking) they just are not reliable ones because most or alot of CI builds include tools to easily deal with them. If those defensive boons still pulsed yes they would be counters but only one class has that function now and thats warrior. Everyone else is SoL. I just glad anet is listening for a change this gives me some faith that they are willing to listen to the majority of the community and not ignore something (despite doing it for a few years) CI should have been culled back in the days of chrono if you ask me.

    as a necro, the game is rigged against you from the start my man. against CI its autolose almost as much as mesmer is autolose against thief.
    try stowing. you also asume that every mesmer lands every MoD, its unrealistic. if everyone landed everything the person with the biggest stick would always win

    Incorrect the game should never be an "Auto loose" thats where fair play and skill come in to play. However CI ontop of current meta builds for mesmer is a bit over the top. A class that plays with a lock down style preventing you from using skills or moving while having tons of i frames and has some of the highest if not the highest instant ramp on condition burst in the game.... pifft. Even without CI Mirage's condition pressure is still strong heck even yesterday i got chain cc'ed into 22 torment 27 bleed + some confusion on the side. YOU 100% DO NOT NEED a trait like CI its just doing the extra imo. People proved that yesterday time and time again. Remember its not just CI its everything else as a whole sitting along side it. Personally if the damage and condition ramp was toned way down to the ground people probably wouldnt care about CI. Imagine having very slow ramp instead of instant condition pressure that melts then the lockdown time that combos with CI provide would be fine but thats not the reality. The reality is is that a single phantom skill such as the duelest can proc 10-15 bleeds by itself.

    Moving on to the necro statement.... of course most match ups are not in its favor, however that does not mean you shouldn't feel like you dont have a chance to make a play. If i feel like I have a chance and "fail or make too many mistakes or go about something the wrong way." its whatever gg well played. The difference between having a chance to make a play and just being silenced for eternity is night and day I have to say. Even if I lose a bad match up. If i feel i had a chance to do something im ok with that. CI adds enough pressure that it kind of prevents that and not just for necros.

    Just like you shouldnt say mesmer = auto lose to thief... thats 100% not the case. Ive never seen a mesmer build instantly go down too a thief even more so if the mesmer is experienced in any shape or form they almost always have a chance to make plays and a chance to win the outcome of that matchup. Is it harder yes because thief just happens to have some good tools to counter mesmer a bit.

    If you think something is a "auto lose" right out the gate is just as bad as starting a pvp match and then sitting afk in base because you "think you cant win" because your first few skirmishes didnt go your way.

    TLDR
    No class should just be auto lose to any other class even if the odds are against your favor. Thinking this way is not a healthy for the balance of the game. Yes not every matchup will be on equal footing that does not mean one profession will auto lose to another. If in the event any particular profession is approaching this level against any other profession it should be dealt with. Every other profession got nipped in the butt when it had something similar in their own way. CI should have been looked at long before now. Just be happy that mesmer is going to get yet again another rework because of it.

    the reality is that single skill like dualist needs you to stand still for 5s to eat entire channel, then not cleans it at all for another 8s to deliver 10k dmg, meanwhile you get charged by warrior, fail to dodge and lose that 10k. as for mirage vs thief, you have no chance at all. you dont instantly die but you are preety much a corpse that is still twitching.

    what??? Dualist's channel is not that long lol. Even so its reward its heavily rewarded for landing it. You most certainly dont need a person to be standing still for 5 seconds to land it more like 2s at best which magic bullet alone can accomplish provided said target is not quick on the break stun or cannot break stun. Now if we were talking about core necro i cant think of a single skill that will load a person up with 10-15 bleeds in the time that duelist does it. A profession with very limited mobility, no hard defenses, very slow casting skills and slow ramp time for condition damage.... Yes you need something to keep your foe still for 5 seconds so you can not get ran over and actually have time to apply your damage to a target (but necro's dont even have this)

    Even if we look back to when reaper first came out and its chill was rather hearty (back when it could actually keep people slowed down) people saw it as too oppressive for not being able to move and recover their skills due to the -66% move and skill recharge. Are you aware that it was nerfed so hard that a reapers chill is almost non existent in 2019 unless you invest runes and traits into it. A scourge's cripple is more effective at holding a player down more than a reapers chill the base durations are just that short.

    Ideally any class that has had something too oppressive got it fixed and mesmer just got overlooked patch after patch to be frank. So while it might seem "normal" to have this kind of power its really not a healthy thing in general.

    Yes a warrior can rush and slap you for 10k how ever this skill in itself is a double edged sword as a warrior cannot dodge once the skill is started and has to cancel it via weapon swap. Further more a max ranged rush is damage you see coming and there is no reason really why you cant dodge it. IF the warrior had a instant immoblize they could use during the Rush skill preventing you from being able to move then the comparison here would be the same but once again... thats not the case. Your comparison here is inaccurate to the reason why CI in general is up for discussion. You are talking about dodging a skill that does hard damage with an obvious tell vs a proc trait like CI with something that can virtually have no tell, For example (power lock) / Focus pull (no tell when the pull is about to go off) and be activated/proc'ed mid way through skills that have cast times.

    As for mirage vs thief it must be painful to have 1 class that legitimately counters instead of having the average 3 or more so like every other profession. Like honestly i don't understand you reasoning here.

    most dmg from cmirage comes froms staff ambush ( 1s channel, long travel time, can be sidestepped )

    I dont even feel like this is correct (in a sense) i feel like most of the damage comes from scepter block into a shatter or staff autos which is winds of chaos (hard tracking projectile that can bounce like crazy from clone to target. Now immobilize that target make it so they cant move while the projectiles are free to bounce back and forth between clone and that target between the burst of staff ambush.
    Most people will dodge a staff ambush if possible so while its a big damage dealer i dont think its a skill that just lands for free. How ever its much easier to get 5 torment from hitting a sudden block on scepter or getting immobilized into a full phantasmal duelist unload.

    duelist ( channel into channel )

    This is standard for every mesmer phantom why would you only point this out about the duelist this is a part of how mesmer is atm im not sure this is a valid argument... you technically dont even need to be looking/facing at your target when you use the skill either (how ever the only gripe is that a target is required) which is true for all phantom skills really.

    staff 3 ( depends on rng crits channel and blees )

    rng crits on bleeds this is not a valid argument as it is standard for every condi build that has a bleed on crit trait this happens to be across multiple professions.

    Lets not forget mesmer is one of the biggest offenders of a profession that has a generous number of instant cast abilities that can be stacked on top of abilities with cast / channel time. Shatters, Mantras + IC, Jaunt etc. Wile some other professions are also capable of this not many of them have as big of an impact when they do it i would say the two that come close are guardian and thief with things like steal, judges intervention etc.

    all of those are slow skills, easy to dodge and counter, without CI there is only pistol 5 to make them stick, so right now to land any of them you have to spam this kitten so kitten much that enemies run out of defensive options, and thats why when I fight warrior, its a 60s war of attrition where in any moment he can just decide to walk away, i cant stop him at all from leaving.

    No slow channeled ability is easy to dodge unless is super fast which is why anet speeds alot of them up so that they can be dodged in a single dodge rather than 2 dodges. (see rev sword when it first came out).

    Pistol 5 works just fine for a good chunk of professions its just that now without the current CI you dont get double rewarded and the foe does not get double punished. You need to deal with enemy defenses just like every other profession deals with them. Even so you still have plenty of stun options and insane condition pressure and great defensive tools at your disposal to use to kite out enemy defenses. Literally if you played well with CI you should be able to play just as fine without CI ive already ran into plenty of mirages still using Power lock without CI and their condition pressure is still insane and they can still easily still lock you down and kill you for making mistakes. Its just slightly more fair now sense you can still move and dodge during a daze.

    as for unwinnable 1v1s, developers gave thief plasma, they didn't take it away, so they WANT thief to autowin 1v1 with cmirage, thats it.

    Cough
    - You can dodge the steal to prevent them from getting plasma.
    - Plasma has been nerfed thanks to abusive boon beast
    - You have plenty of evades to evade a steal.
    - You have boon strip options available.

    As a necro player how do you think i feel when a thief steals fear from me and applies stronger and longer lasting fears than what I have in my base kit.... i get hit with steal then i know at some point a fear is going to come. Or you try and dodge the steal preventing them from getting the benefit all together.

    Lastly there is one more thing i want to say that i think is the most unfair thing ive seen in this game.
    I wish i could dodge while under CC effects like stun, fear, immobilize, knock down, like Mirage can.
    Least you still have that.

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    We can dodge instant skills but you can't dodge 1 to 3 sec skills.
    Plasma was buffed 3 times before getting 2 boons nerfed.
    Wish I had a 2nd health bar, wish I could deal 15k with one skill, wish I could use dodge to create and close gaps, and so on and so on.
    And lastly as a necro you have some ways to get condis back to mirage, and mirage has awful condi cleanse.

    The degenerate

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 6, 2019

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    In fact its much easier to dodge MoD then it is to dodge the steal

    Are you seriously arguing that an instant cast skill (steal) is harder to dodge than another instant cast skill (power lock)???

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    In fact its much easier to dodge MoD then it is to dodge the steal

    Are you seriously arguing that an instant cast skill (steal) is harder to dodge than another instant cast skill (power lock)???

    is it not ?

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    is it not ?

    It's not. Unfortunately, I can't tell if you're trolling.

    Both steal and power lock are instant cast skills you can activate from 1200 range. The methods you use to bait the former will work on the latter as well if the player falls for them.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    is it not ?

    It's not. Unfortunately, I can't tell if you're trolling.

    Both steal and power lock are instant cast skills you can activate from 1200 range. The methods you use to bait the former will work on the latter as well if the player falls for them.

    then you sir are wrong, Mod can be LoS, MoD can be blocked, MoD is only helpfull when interupting.
    steal doesnt have to interupt, steal is unblockable, steal doesnt need LoS but most importantly thief can create long breathing room to use a steal in, like porting away and waiting 5s, for example.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 6, 2019

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    then you sir are wrong, Mod can be LoS, MoD can be blocked, MoD is only helpfull when interupting.
    steal doesnt have to interupt, steal is unblockable, steal doesnt need LoS but most importantly thief can create long breathing room to use a steal in, like porting away and waiting 5s, for example.

    Steal is not unblockable. Also, Power Lock can still hit behind LoS because it's AoE. Mesmer always has breathing room because they can stay at 1200 range while using Power Lock instead of going into melee range with Steal. You also can't stand on a no-port spot to stop Power Lock unlike Steal.

    You said, "It's much easier to dodge MoD then it is to dodge the steal."

    You are wrong. Both steal and power lock are instant cast skills you can activate from 1200 range.

    However, if you bring up functionality, I'd argue that it's way easier to land Power Lock. In a fight that lasts one minute, a thief would be able to Steal three times. On the other hand, a mesmer would be able to Power Pock eight times. In other words, you can use Power Lock nearly 3x as frequently as you can use Steal.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    then you sir are wrong, Mod can be LoS, MoD can be blocked, MoD is only helpfull when interupting.
    steal doesnt have to interupt, steal is unblockable, steal doesnt need LoS but most importantly thief can create long breathing room to use a steal in, like porting away and waiting 5s, for example.

    Steal is not unblockable. Also, Power Lock can still hit behind LoS because it's AoE. Mesmer always has breathing room because they can stay at 1200 range while using Power Lock instead of going into melee range with Steal. You also can't stand on a no-port spot to stop Power Lock unlike Steal.

    You said, "It's much easier to dodge MoD then it is to dodge the steal."

    You are wrong. Both steal and power lock are instant cast skills you can activate from 1200 range.

    However, if you bring up functionality, I'd argue that it's way easier to land Power Lock. In a fight that lasts one minute, a thief would be able to Steal three times. On the other hand, a mesmer would be able to Power Pock eight times. In other words, you can use Power Lock nearly 3x as frequently as you can use Steal.

    steal removes aegis, so as a mesmer you cant block it., steal also has breathing room, becouse it can stay at MORE then 1200 range, landing 3 steals in a minute, difference is that 1 steal seals the deal, but even if it doesnt. In what world can mesmer use MoD 8 times? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    steal removes aegis, so as a mesmer you cant block it., steal also has breathing room, becouse it can stay at MORE then 1200 range, landing 3 steals in a minute, difference is that 1 steal seals the deal, but even if it doesnt. In what world can mesmer use MoD 8 times? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

    I'm not interested in arguing this any further. Landing Power Lock is just as easy as landing Steal. Feel free to disagree.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    In fact its much easier to dodge MoD then it is to dodge the steal

    This is untrue for a few reasons. You can consider it easier to dodge power lock because in some builds people dont use power lock until they choose to combine it with another skill. People dont anticipate the power lock they anticipate the skill thats being combined with it. (one of the most obvious ones being mirror blade for example.)

    Are you seriously arguing that an instant cast skill (steal) is harder to dodge than another instant cast skill (power lock)???

    Bingo
    this is what im thinking exactly how ever the difference is that when a thief hits you with steal you dont instantly become immobilized.
    Another difference is that if you manage to dodge a steal the thief loses alot of benefit and on a lot of builds its a 1 time thing before going on a lengthy cooldown provided

    Futher more the main topic is the extra pressure that CI provides not particularly power lock. The closest thing you can compare here on thief that provides a similar function is impacting disruption which saw several nerfs and cannot critically hit. It was for the lack of better words toned down to a proper level and it still frustrates people if a thief abuses it in 2019.

    Most thieves dont keep several sources of stun / daze in their kits most of them have steal itself and thats about it.

    Vs a mesmer for example will have torch 5, focus 4, pistol 5, Power lock, f3 shatter, chaos storm (thought a bit unreliable) several sources to proc CI. Now while they wont have all of these i would say at least 2-3 of them regardless of what they prefer is a given. vs a single steal.. this is not really comparable imo.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    We can dodge instant skills but you can't dodge 1 to 3 sec skills.

    does a single dodge provide 3 seconds of i frames? No... but you know what does the f4 shatter.

    Plasma was buffed 3 times before getting 2 boons nerfed.

    The point is is that it was previously nerfed and cant you just remove the boons like you do on other classes.

    Wish I had a 2nd health bar, wish I could deal 15k with one skill, wish I could use dodge to create and close gaps, and so on and so on.

    You got me the health bar, 15k... hah Scepter 3 before it was nerf you had a skill that could do 15k in one shot on a condi weapon no less, ummm im pretty sure mesmer has some of the best tools for gap closing actually, should we continue

    And lastly as a necro you have some ways to get condis back to mirage, and mirage has awful condi cleanse.

    That is true i wont dienie that how ever its hard to do that while you are stunned in place and cannot turn to face the mirage to use some of those skills. You could point out plauge signet but then the issue of that is that mirage's have this habit of sporadically entering iframes, so while a necro is being loaded up with conditions, dazed, immoblized, they must also look for the real mirage in the event that mirage breaks target, find it, select it, then watch to make sure that mirage is not in iframe then attempt to use a skill which must be instant instant cast (plauge signet is the only active skill you can use to fling condis back while stunned.) so yeah its doable but more challenging than you might think.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    We can dodge instant skills but you can't dodge 1 to 3 sec skills.

    does a single dodge provide 3 seconds of i frames? No... but you know what does the f4 shatter.

    Plasma was buffed 3 times before getting 2 boons nerfed.

    The point is is that it was previously nerfed and cant you just remove the boons like you do on other classes.

    Wish I had a 2nd health bar, wish I could deal 15k with one skill, wish I could use dodge to create and close gaps, and so on and so on.

    You got me the health bar, 15k... hah Scepter 3 before it was nerf you had a skill that could do 15k in one shot on a condi weapon no less, ummm im pretty sure mesmer has some of the best tools for gap closing actually, should we continue

    And lastly as a necro you have some ways to get condis back to mirage, and mirage has awful condi cleanse.

    That is true i wont dienie that how ever its hard to do that while you are stunned in place and cannot turn to face the mirage to use some of those skills. You could point out plauge signet but then the issue of that is that mirage's have this habit of sporadically entering iframes, so while a necro is being loaded up with conditions, dazed, immoblized, they must also look for the real mirage in the event that mirage breaks target, find it, select it, then watch to make sure that mirage is not in iframe then attempt to use a skill which must be instant instant cast (plauge signet is the only active skill you can use to fling condis back while stunned.) so yeah its doable but more challenging than you might think.

    plasma is a godmode against cmesmer, even if you somehow manage to remove it, there is another one followed by daggerstorm followed by another steal into 2 more plasmas.

    im pretty sure mesmer has some of the best tools for gap closing actually, should we continue <--- ?????? can you list them for me ?

    i have no issue using arcane thevery against other mesmers, it has 1/4s casttime, so you should have even less isues using plague signet.

  • yusayu.3629yusayu.3629 Member ✭✭✭

    @BadMed.3846 said:

    @yusayu.3629 said:
    Again, people cry about Mesmer because they don't know how to play and ANet listens to them.

    If people don't know how to use stability, reflects and condicleanse, ANet shouldn't cater to those people.

    Again mesmers use a pointless argument to defend broken mechanics. It can't really end here. CI is just the start. We're waiting on Mantras change next. Mirage is far from fixed. It is utterly broken still.

    Yeah, I can understand how Mirage is very annoying if you're mediocre or at most slightly above average in PvP. Like, I seriously understand that concern.

    But PvP shouldn't be balanced for people who don't know that Stability prevents the Mirage from getting a CI proc and who can't dodge Arcane Thievery.

  • Arekai.5698Arekai.5698 Member ✭✭

    So how long till anet makes power mes viable in high/AT play?
    How about, instead of nerfing condi mes for the 10th time, buff power?

  • BadMed.3846BadMed.3846 Member ✭✭✭

    @yusayu.3629 said:

    @BadMed.3846 said:

    @yusayu.3629 said:
    Again, people cry about Mesmer because they don't know how to play and ANet listens to them.

    If people don't know how to use stability, reflects and condicleanse, ANet shouldn't cater to those people.

    Again mesmers use a pointless argument to defend broken mechanics. It can't really end here. CI is just the start. We're waiting on Mantras change next. Mirage is far from fixed. It is utterly broken still.

    Yeah, I can understand how Mirage is very annoying if you're mediocre or at most slightly above average in PvP. Like, I seriously understand that concern.

    But PvP shouldn't be balanced for people who don't know that Stability prevents the Mirage from getting a CI proc and who can't dodge Arcane Thievery.

    Likewise I understand why Mirage opness is so important to you if you're below average player and can only work with Condi spam mechanics.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @yusayu.3629 said:

    @BadMed.3846 said:

    @yusayu.3629 said:
    Again, people cry about Mesmer because they don't know how to play and ANet listens to them.

    If people don't know how to use stability, reflects and condicleanse, ANet shouldn't cater to those people.

    Again mesmers use a pointless argument to defend broken mechanics. It can't really end here. CI is just the start. We're waiting on Mantras change next. Mirage is far from fixed. It is utterly broken still.

    Yeah, I can understand how Mirage is very annoying if you're mediocre or at most slightly above average in PvP. Like, I seriously understand that concern.

    But PvP shouldn't be balanced for people who don't know that Stability prevents the Mirage from getting a CI proc and who can't dodge Arcane Thievery.

    We have already cover this. Mesmer has plentiful options to rip that away and multiple sources on any given build to proc CI to be frank the easiest way to balance CI remove the immobilize period.. the rest is fine. If you want to be this critical about it while you say pvp shouldn't be balanced around the average majority it also certainly shouldn't be balanced around the top elite either. Thats how you get people to stop playing pvp.

    Lets just stop pretending like anet has never culled something that was too strong before it just happens to be mesmers turn for something else that slipped through the cracks.

    If all your success depended on CI procs then you certainly are not any better than the average player who fails to dodge Arcane thievery.

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @BadMed.3846 said:

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:

    @Teefy.5016 said:
    so you came here to gloat, on the mesmer forum. i hope you're enjoying the show.

    He came here to troll.

    It's about relevance. Mesmer forum is not a mesmers' hangout. It's a forum subsection that relates to the game profession Mesmer. So, it fits in nicely here.

    Go away with your personal attacks and trolls. My skin is too thick for your needles.

    the sheer fact that you are so upset to roam these forums just to whine on a class means your skin aint as thick as you think :cold_sweat:

    The only ones upset here seem to be you and a few other mesmer mains that solely depended on it being so ridiculously strong from the trait to actually win games. stop whining and improve, no need to be upset.

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @BadMed.3846 said:
    @Ghos.1326 very well said in detail. I don't know why so many mesmers think that it was perfectly OK and didn't need a nerf. Again, there are too many mesmers in game today as they've adopted the profession to abuse such traits. I'm sure there are old school mesmers in here who believe a change was definitely required.

    nobody says CI was bad, what is bad is preety much every single other trait we have, i personally dont care, gona whoop peoples kitten with a different build. keep on whining lad

    He never said CI was bad either, he pointed that it was a bit overperforming. Reading 101....

    reading 101 compared to understanding 101. if you have kitten trait and a very good one, together they are alright. if you remove the amazing one and leave the kitten. you are left with kitten.

    Understanding 101: if something overperforms way too well, it's not in a balanced or fair state. Therefore it needs toned down.
    Also understanding 101: Claiming something is bad is to claim that it's underwhelming and borderline useless, if not 100% useless.

    ehh, since when something being bad means its useless.
    scepter 1 deals around 700 damage, its kitten bad. doesnt mean im not gonna use it, better to use kitten power then use nothing.
    and if you agree with their reasoning you should look into the mirror, warriors rampage is OP, lets not nerf it. remove it from the game, that will show them!.
    holo is broken, kitten it holo cant be played in pvp now lelel. in 3months we will do more nerfs and you will get your power back exept we will remove other things so its not gonna be usable anyways lelele.

    as for what was before mirage. cant say what was cuz i didnt play back then, but the fact that mirage didnt exist back then proves nothing, since other broken elites didnt exist as well.

    Reading 101, I gave 2 possibilities on what being "bad" could mean. jeezus.

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 7, 2019

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    We can dodge instant skills but you can't dodge 1 to 3 sec skills.

    does a single dodge provide 3 seconds of i frames? No... but you know what does the f4 shatter.

    Plasma was buffed 3 times before getting 2 boons nerfed.

    The point is is that it was previously nerfed and cant you just remove the boons like you do on other classes.

    Wish I had a 2nd health bar, wish I could deal 15k with one skill, wish I could use dodge to create and close gaps, and so on and so on.

    You got me the health bar, 15k... hah Scepter 3 before it was nerf you had a skill that could do 15k in one shot on a condi weapon no less, ummm im pretty sure mesmer has some of the best tools for gap closing actually, should we continue

    And lastly as a necro you have some ways to get condis back to mirage, and mirage has awful condi cleanse.

    That is true i wont dienie that how ever its hard to do that while you are stunned in place and cannot turn to face the mirage to use some of those skills. You could point out plauge signet but then the issue of that is that mirage's have this habit of sporadically entering iframes, so while a necro is being loaded up with conditions, dazed, immoblized, they must also look for the real mirage in the event that mirage breaks target, find it, select it, then watch to make sure that mirage is not in iframe then attempt to use a skill which must be instant instant cast (plauge signet is the only active skill you can use to fling condis back while stunned.) so yeah its doable but more challenging than you might think.

    plasma is a godmode against cmesmer, even if you somehow manage to remove it, there is another one followed by daggerstorm followed by another steal into 2 more plasmas.

    I dont agree here sorry you get 1 of every boon for a few seconds. Thats not that big of a deal to be honest.

    Every class has to deal with dagger storm thats not relevant to your argument because its something every profession that fights a thief has to deal with so dont bring that into this.

    The topic you lead up to was plasma... i shared my thoughts on plasma so you added dagger storm... no... you dont get to do that we were talking about the plasma..

    im pretty sure mesmer has some of the best tools for gap closing actually, should we continue <--- ?????? can you list them for me ?

    Blink?????
    Juant?
    Sword skill 3 (swap)?
    Axe 3 (Axes of Symmetry)?
    Sword ambush (Mirage Thrust)?
    Mirage Advance ????
    all of these skills that blink you to a person or can be used to do so??? No Good gap closers at all????
    Compared to alot of professions you certainly have good handful of options.

    You aint no thief but i mean come on now.... lets be real ;)

    i have no issue using arcane thevery against other mesmers, it has 1/4s casttime, so you should have even less isues using plague signet.

    If i was invulnerable and could not be dazed for 4s or could doge damage while immobilized and or stunned im sure i wouldn't have a problem doing that either ;)
    You sould try using skills that throw back conditions with a different class to get a better understanding for everyone who does not mainly play mesmer.

    regardless of where you keep trying to go with this the majority of the community has deemed CI mirage or CI mesmers in general 100% unfun to fight against because no one likes being locked down for 10 seconds straight. The tools to counter this strat are not reliable in other words in most cases if you escape you are immidately locked down again. Simply put it's obnoxious!

    you dont balance for the top minority and you dont balance for the new minority you balance for the genera average majority if the majority sees it as a problem then its a problem.

    Your frustration is how i felt when anet made chill and cripple no longer effect movement skills and when reapers chill durations got nerfed to the floor. Its done and over with once its done its done.

    Be thankful you are getting another mesmer rework again. this will be like the 3rd one in 2 years or something. Some classes have not seen a full rework to some of their traits yet and are still waiting in line.

  • Delofasht.4231Delofasht.4231 Member ✭✭✭

    A full rework on a trait is hardly the solution, as the trait is just another byproduct of the Clone design being broken. The reason CI ends up good is because it allows Mesmer to line up everything and then the damage sources become consistent. Once consistent damage is seen, it will definitely be viewed as too strong, that is the inherent problem with the profession though. Mesmer is not consistent because half the time Shatters will never reach the enemy or will be performed with less than the maximum number of clones.

    Fully rework the source of the profession’s problem first, then adjust the numbers and traits; doing any of these before changing that is just going to be nerfing a symptom of the real problem. Clones should be viewed as a resource, not sources of deception or vessels to carry damage to the enemy. For more information on tackling the main issue, read basically any of my previous posts where much detail has gone into a number of ways to resolve the issue and maintain some semblance of the same visual design with slightly different coded effects. Due to the design of elites being built on Core design, some amount of recoding to some traits would be necessary. Resolution to the problems of the profession as a whole would be resolved and balance could be maintained as future changes would no longer be adjusting symptoms of an inherent broken design.

    Another point worth noting, the majority may indeed feel CI is an actual problem, but the devs should know from their history that the majority of the player base is often wrong on what the actual problem is. The frustration from the Mesmer community is that we know this is not the issue, we even state what it is often, consistency and reliability. Remove the deficiencies by resolving the core issue first, then adjust the over performing traits and skills.

    In short, CI makes the usually inconsistent Shatters and Clones a lot more consistent by applying an Immobilize to allow everything to be lined up, showing us how strong Mesmer could be if we were not reliant on a resource that could be destroyed and damage that can simply be outrun or disrupted on route to it’s target.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Delofasht.4231 said:
    A full rework on a trait is hardly the solution, as the trait is just another byproduct of the Clone design being broken. The reason CI ends up good is because it allows Mesmer to line up everything and then the damage sources become consistent. Once consistent damage is seen, it will definitely be viewed as too strong, that is the inherent problem with the profession though. Mesmer is not consistent because half the time Shatters will never reach the enemy or will be performed with less than the maximum number of clones.

    You make a good point here actually this i can admit is a good way of wording things.

    Fully rework the source of the profession’s problem first, then adjust the numbers and traits; doing any of these before changing that is just going to be nerfing a symptom of the real problem. Clones should be viewed as a resource, not sources of deception or vessels to carry damage to the enemy. For more information on tackling the main issue, read basically any of my previous posts where much detail has gone into a number of ways to resolve the issue and maintain some semblance of the same visual design with slightly different coded effects. Due to the design of elites being built on Core design, some amount of recoding to some traits would be necessary. Resolution to the problems of the profession as a whole would be resolved and balance could be maintained as future changes would no longer be adjusting symptoms of an inherent broken design.

    The deception part does add a bit of sustainability to the mesmer though even more so in a fight that involves multiple foes. That said i think they are counted as both right now. A resource and a source of deception / damage carriers.

    Another point worth noting, the majority may indeed feel CI is an actual problem, but the devs should know from their history that the majority of the player base is often wrong on what the actual problem is. The frustration from the Mesmer community is that we know this is not the issue, we even state what it is often, consistency and reliability. Remove the deficiencies by resolving the core issue first, then adjust the over performing traits and skills.

    This part i still dont agree with. CI is a problem (with the immobilize attached to it) Even under the idea that mesmer was not based on AI clones and phantoms to deal some of its damage the idea of locking down many other professions via stuns and immobilize at the same time is not healthy. Mesmer at any given time has multiple sources to proc this trait too so while it may not be the main issue as you see it. It is technically still a issue of being too oppressive. As I said reapers chill got the same treatment back when it first released. Players were either forced into taking extra clear specifically for chill or ideally locked down to easily by hearty chill durations. The majority of players did not like this... even though it was just as you say a core issue. As core necromancer is well we dont need to go there you know the state its in. and as you point out the elites are built on top. Yet chill application and duration was still nerfed in several ways regardless without a rework to the core profession.

    While what you say is likely a possibility that core mesmer is in need of a rework many other professions see the same kind of deal and have been waiting longer / just as long as mesmer. Mesmer has seen 2 reworks now in the past year or two and this issue with CI mirage as they called it out will likely lead to a 3rd.

    As for what you say about the devs listening to the player base..... when???
    ITs rare they do listen to the player base so this is kind of out of the ordinary for them.

    In short, CI makes the usually inconsistent Shatters and Clones a lot more consistent by applying an Immobilize to allow everything to be lined up, showing us how strong Mesmer could be if we were not reliant on a resource that could be destroyed and damage that can simply be outrun or disrupted on route to it’s target.

    What you say is not wrong but the way it goes about doing it is very oppressive to many other professions and play styles. Its not very healthy regardless of how mesmer is reworked something like this cant stay this powerful. It should have never been this way to start with really. It slipped through as other meta options were rolled for a while. Just like scepter 3 hitting hard as a truck for as long as it did before its nerf that should have never stayed that way for that long for the example.

    Before anet start doing core reworks they should probably at least make the game a bit more fair for everyone rather than leaving things in a unhealthy state till they can get around to solving the underlying issue.

    This would be my guess as to what they could be going for. As some people have stated its likely that mirage is gonna get the chrono treatment its going to gain some kind of loss or trade off for taking the elite spec like almost all the other professions have now. Mirage and chrono slipped by without these things for a very long time so of course people wont like things being taken away from them because they dont see others losing them at the same time. Fact is Mesmer is just late to the party for the goals anet is forcing on everyone.

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