Remake condition system — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Remake condition system

Snapz.4702Snapz.4702 Member ✭✭
edited November 9, 2019 in PVP

Instead of having the garbage condition system we have now where you stack torment, confusion, burn etc. too insane numbers with little or no effort at all.
What if we tied unique conditions to specific weapons skills and utility skills where they actually act like conditions . Same way WoW(cant come up with another examples, so plz chill) handles condition where you can put several unique conditons on target, Wouldn't it be thousand times better than the spamfiesta we have now?

Comments

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭

    So rather than applying 3 stacks of confusion, instead you apply 1 stack of confusion, 1 stack of befuddlement, and 1 stack of misunderstanding?

    So your solution to condi-spam....... is to increase it exponentially ?

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I thought we wanted conditions that ramp when you land successive attacks rather than being able to land a wide variety of them all at once?

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • Snapz.4702Snapz.4702 Member ✭✭
    edited November 9, 2019

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    I thought we wanted conditions that ramp when you land successive attacks rather than being able to land a wide variety of them all at once?

    I mean wouldnt it ramp up if we successfully land those unique conditions aswell? What im trying to say is what if we had a condition system where you put a unique Condition Lets say mirage axe 3 Condition for X amount of DMG over 10sec and if you reapply it on the target instead of stacking it just refreshes it. This way we can avoid the dmg by dogding axe 3, unlike we have now where you basically have to dogde everything to survive condition + this gives more counterplay to condition other than cleansing it

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 9, 2019

    But, we already have that system......

    If you dodge Axe 3...... then you don't take the condi-damage from Axe 3. The fact that Axe 3 is applying the same type of condition as another skill is irrelevant.

    2 stacks of the same condition, or 1 stack of 2 different conditions, doesn't change anything. All it changes is that now, your 1-condi cleanse can't remove it all.

    Current System: 10 different attacks hit you, each does 1 confusion, you end up with 10 stacks of confusion. 1 cleanse can clear them all.

    Your System: 10 different attacks hit you, each does its own unique condition, you end up with 10 different conditions on you. 1 cleanse is useless.

  • Solitude.2097Solitude.2097 Member ✭✭
    edited November 9, 2019

    I wouldnt have problem if Condition Damage is Reduced ...
    ...But the person affected by them , their attacks are randomized/change position/even if some attacks-spells go in other weapons or utilities , in order to create a mentaly meyhemand slow down their combo bursts
    They cleansed ALLof them ? Fine .. Have an other random rotation :)

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Gw2 is far to condi heavy these days with weavers,guards etc constantly setting everything on fire continually, thieves poisoning constantly and scourges doing their thing. Ur spamming cleanses constantly to keep up with all the condi's being spammed and the condi's are in such access that they out burst power.

  • @Snapz.4702 said:
    Instead of having the garbage condition system we have now where you stack torment, confusion, burn etc. too insane numbers with little or no effort at all.
    What if we tied unique conditions to specific weapons skills and utility skills where they actually act like conditions . Same way WoW(cant come up with another examples, so plz chill) handles condition where you can put several unique conditons on target, Wouldn't it be thousand times better than the spamfiesta we have now?

    I think this was in the beginning the system they had but decided to change it I also see this a problem because over time condi dmg became extremely burst like and when you have multiply builds which are condi based in a team there is no way you can clean them away from the perspective of the opposite team. This was one of the bad fesign decisions of the HoT team like the confusing CC bar

  • Solitude.2097Solitude.2097 Member ✭✭
    edited November 9, 2019

    @Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

    @Snapz.4702 said:
    Instead of having the garbage condition system we have now where you stack torment, confusion, burn etc. too insane numbers with little or no effort at all.
    What if we tied unique conditions to specific weapons skills and utility skills where they actually act like conditions . Same way WoW(cant come up with another examples, so plz chill) handles condition where you can put several unique conditons on target, Wouldn't it be thousand times better than the spamfiesta we have now?

    I think this was in the beginning the system they had but decided to change it I also see this a problem because over time condi dmg became extremely burst like and when you have multiply builds which are condi based in a team there is no way you can clean them away from the perspective of the opposite team. This was one of the bad fesign decisions of the HoT team like the confusing CC bar

    If an Enginner casted a 850 burn per sec - (max damage -Rabid Amulet)on a target and then the Guardian would try to apply his burn , it wouldnt work .
    Only 1 burn could exist on the target (the one that did the most damage)
    Like the current regeneratrion

  • @Ragnar.4257 said:
    But, we already have that system......

    If you dodge Axe 3...... then you don't take the condi-damage from Axe 3. The fact that Axe 3 is applying the same type of condition as another skill is irrelevant.

    2 stacks of the same condition, or 1 stack of 2 different conditions, doesn't change anything. All it changes is that now, your 1-condi cleanse can't remove it all.

    Current System: 10 different attacks hit you, each does 1 confusion, you end up with 10 stacks of confusion. 1 cleanse can clear them all.

    Your System: 10 different attacks hit you, each does its own unique condition, you end up with 10 different conditions on you. 1 cleanse is useless.

    Obviously there wouldn't be 10 different unique conditions that would be more broke than it allready is. And applying Conditions in the current state is way to easy
    and not punishing at all, if you miss a skill or two you just carry on and spam condition. Even if you use condi cleanse to remove stacks of condition they just reapply the cleansed stacks with ease. The idea is to make it less spammy, bursty and more skill reliant.

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 9, 2019

    @Snapz.4702 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    But, we already have that system......

    If you dodge Axe 3...... then you don't take the condi-damage from Axe 3. The fact that Axe 3 is applying the same type of condition as another skill is irrelevant.

    2 stacks of the same condition, or 1 stack of 2 different conditions, doesn't change anything. All it changes is that now, your 1-condi cleanse can't remove it all.

    Current System: 10 different attacks hit you, each does 1 confusion, you end up with 10 stacks of confusion. 1 cleanse can clear them all.

    Your System: 10 different attacks hit you, each does its own unique condition, you end up with 10 different conditions on you. 1 cleanse is useless.

    Obviously there wouldn't be 10 different unique conditions that would be more broke than it allready is. And applying Conditions in the current state is way to easy
    and not punishing at all, if you miss a skill or two you just carry on and spam condition. Even if you use condi cleanse to remove stacks of condition they just reapply the cleansed stacks with ease. The idea is to make it less spammy, bursty and more skill reliant.

    So are you proposing to remove 95% of the current weapon skills?

    Because there are more than 10 weapon skills.

    And your proposal is that each one must apply its own unique condition.

    Therefore there must be a different condition for each weapon skill.

    9 classes, roughly 20 skills (considering all weapons, utilities, traits) per class that apply conditions, you've got 180 different conditions.

    Think this through.

  • @Solitude.2097 said:

    @Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

    @Snapz.4702 said:
    Instead of having the garbage condition system we have now where you stack torment, confusion, burn etc. too insane numbers with little or no effort at all.
    What if we tied unique conditions to specific weapons skills and utility skills where they actually act like conditions . Same way WoW(cant come up with another examples, so plz chill) handles condition where you can put several unique conditons on target, Wouldn't it be thousand times better than the spamfiesta we have now?

    I think this was in the beginning the system they had but decided to change it I also see this a problem because over time condi dmg became extremely burst like and when you have multiply builds which are condi based in a team there is no way you can clean them away from the perspective of the opposite team. This was one of the bad fesign decisions of the HoT team like the confusing CC bar

    If an Enginner casted a 850 burn per sec - (max damage -Rabid Amulet)on a target and then the Guardian would try to apply his burn , it wouldnt work .
    Only 1 burn could exist on the target (the one that did the most damage)
    Like the current regeneratrion

    I know and I say you this was the base system at some point when Gw2 started there was a cap on all the condis with HoT they removed those caps

  • Shaogin.2679Shaogin.2679 Member ✭✭✭

    @Snapz.4702 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    But, we already have that system......

    If you dodge Axe 3...... then you don't take the condi-damage from Axe 3. The fact that Axe 3 is applying the same type of condition as another skill is irrelevant.

    2 stacks of the same condition, or 1 stack of 2 different conditions, doesn't change anything. All it changes is that now, your 1-condi cleanse can't remove it all.

    Current System: 10 different attacks hit you, each does 1 confusion, you end up with 10 stacks of confusion. 1 cleanse can clear them all.

    Your System: 10 different attacks hit you, each does its own unique condition, you end up with 10 different conditions on you. 1 cleanse is useless.

    Obviously there wouldn't be 10 different unique conditions that would be more broke than it allready is. And applying Conditions in the current state is way to easy
    and not punishing at all, if you miss a skill or two you just carry on and spam condition. Even if you use condi cleanse to remove stacks of condition they just reapply the cleansed stacks with ease. The idea is to make it less spammy, bursty and more skill reliant.

    This isn't true for every condi build though. You guys just see the over performing condi builds and automatically cry for nerfs to condi damage across the board with no knowledge of what you are talking about. Half of the classes do not have a functioning condi build for PvP. Of the half that do, Core Burn Guard is pretty well balanced and not OP at all. Burn Guard has very little cover conditions and key skills that it must land, and for an effective burst he must bait out condi defenses first.

    The only reason Condi Necro is strong is because of its access to corruption skills and the amount of boon spam in the game. Condi Weaver is strong because it applies steady applications of condi damage with some burst here and there, all while being petty tanky. Condi Daredevil and Condi Mirage have a non stop barrage of condi pressure with plenty of cover conditions, mobility, and escape options. Anet is already looking to nerf those builds though.

    My point is, condi in general is not the problem, it is the specific builds. And if you're one of those delusional people that wanna talk about condi being too easy while power takes skill, just stop. That isn't true at all. Power builds are just as easy.

    Doc Von Doom

  • DeadlySynz.3471DeadlySynz.3471 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Same thing has to happen with physical damage. Both conditions and physical damage must remain about equal in their output over time. So if someone spams 1 whacking away with their weapons for 10 seconds, someone equally dumping conditions on the target should be doing roughly the same damage over 10 seconds. Right now this is not equal, physical damage will do more, mainly in part because conditions can be both removed, negated, or have their tick times reduced. Yes conditions should be reworked, but it appears they need a buff of sorts, as they are currently not on par with physical damage.

  • Snapz.4702Snapz.4702 Member ✭✭
    edited November 10, 2019

    Well what would you guys propose then?

  • Lord of the Fire.6870Lord of the Fire.6870 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 10, 2019

    @DeadlySynz.3471 said:
    Same thing has to happen with physical damage. Both conditions and physical damage must remain about equal in their output over time. So if someone spams 1 whacking away with their weapons for 10 seconds, someone equally dumping conditions on the target should be doing roughly the same damage over 10 seconds. Right now this is not equal, physical damage will do more, mainly in part because conditions can be both removed, negated, or have their tick times reduced. Yes conditions should be reworked, but it appears they need a buff of sorts, as they are currently not on par with physical damage.

    The problem is not only the dmg most condi build have lots of soft cc besides the dmg which are applied by the same skill also what dmg ? The big difference between power dmg and condi is crit and the multiplier which comes with it by making them 'equal' condi will always the upper hand because you don't need precision and fury.

    This is also the reason why condi Tempest is a thing Ele and Tempest have low critrate/precision (while weaver has a trait +15% crit chance). Ultimate you have as a condi build more stats points free and you don't need an extra trait for fury .

    EDIT: Okay this is a bad example but you must look at this under the premise with the same weapons and the same weapon skills. A 'solution' would be that condis crit too and rebalance around this .

  • Swagg.9236Swagg.9236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Snapz.4702 said:
    Well what would you guys propose then?

    The problem with conditions in GW2 is that they've never been anything other than damage. Yeah, "control" conditions exist, but ultimately they were not super impactful unless you could stack immob on someone or maybe if you perma-chilled an Elementalist. Things like "you move slower" have traditionally been underpowered or irrelevant in GW2 (a game loaded with teleports, movement skills and ranged attacks which aim themselves). If you want "good" or "meaningful" conditions in GW2, you would have to give them an actual purpose or goal related their application.

    Conditions have always been nothing but damage at the end of the day. Prior to the stack change, condi was always, always, ALWAYS garbage in comparison to direct strikes (except for SOMETIMES a few PvP exceptions), and after the stack change, conditions randomly supplanted direct strikes as meta DAMAGE. GW2 has always had two, generic, untyped damage paradigms for absolutely zero reason. Now they fluctuate in "purpose" randomly based entirely on patch notes. The only way to fix this is to just give conditions a real purpose that can complement direct strike damage. I tried doing that a while ago, and it sort of ended up going down the path you imagined in your OP with how a lot of condis got limited to certain weapon choices. The main difference is in how condis would turn into a "builder" mechanic used to trigger super powerful debuffs which would be useful in PvP and PvE: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/73153/giving-conditions-a-role-and-normalizing-condition-removal

  • tone down all the cover condis and give classes 1 or 2 burst condis and 1 or 2 debilitating condis.
    nerf boon to condi conversion table.
    nerf some durations.
    nerf the amount of times the same condi can stack both in duration and in intensity. removing the intensity caps was a really dumb change and only belongs in pve.

    tldr
    blah blah blah

  • Ysmir.4986Ysmir.4986 Member ✭✭✭

    How about, for example ;

    • For poison, you remove damage and keep the healing debuff,
    • For chill, you only get higher cd (movement is redundant with cripple)
    • Burn is the only condition that can “burst down” a target,
    • Confusion only damages on skill activation,
    • Torment only damages on movement.
  • Marxx.5021Marxx.5021 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 10, 2019

    Anet gave up PvP about 3 years ago. You cannot do big changes with like 2 peoble left dedicated to competitive gaming. And the rest of the company simply does not care.

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