anet need to choice were to go (strike mission and raid) — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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anet need to choice were to go (strike mission and raid)

so basically we got strike to make pp happy whit raid-like content, but the "raid elitist" strikes again let me explain, this week there is the boneskinner is op as hell, more like a raid than a strike pugs go there and wiped, and that is very punitive... what they will learn ? to die?, i know u want pp enjoy the contents, but if those have a high pick on difficulty, most of the pve open party pp that don't do raid will get wiped easily, also u want this pp join in raid i suppose... i like hard contents like cm's and i do raid, but i tink more pp wil do and will enjoiy raiding if you simply split into not timed and timed raids , becouse i tink this is the main thing to make pp easy learn mechs, also most raids fails for the time pressure and not for the mechs, and whit that u also will avoid dps check toxicity by some kind of players. in fractal u have 4 different level maked for pp to learn and improve, raid don't have that also strike don't have (but they are supposed to be the easy raid like content) but if u push whit elitist and hard content pp will leave.

Comments

  • What are you on about? Even training groups rarely struggle with enrage timer in raids, the issue is mechanics 99% of the time. Or they attempt to mimic tactics which are the norm in most groups that have some form of KP prerequisite to joining and fail for any number of reasons. Raids are easy enough as they are. If people make no attempt to learn more optimal builds their class, or a rotation, or get decent gear, why should their interests even be considered?

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Sooo... you don't want to have any -even slightly- punishing mechanics in strike missions? So you basically want anyone to be able to go with any builds or team composition, keep pressing 1, dodge nothing and still easly succeed? What exactly would be the point of a content like that? Current SM are easy even when "going in blind", which is literally what I did for each of them (and pretty sure a lot of other players did the same). I didn't see any elitism there either, not sure what you're talking about.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    There is a variation in the difficulty of strikes. You don't like the Boneskinner fight because it's too difficult? Good. I don't like the Icebrood Construct because it's a very easy solo encounter, easier than fighting most champions in the expansions. What happened to having variety in a game?

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 28, 2019

    @whoeverxwins.1279 said:
    Casual player here. Did boneskinner strike for first time this week. Was it hard? Sure. Was it fun? Yes! Been doing strikes and enjoying them on my healbrand, actually considering getting into some raids, despite my arthritis. Used to raid a lot in LOTRO and I do miss it.

    Most raids needs less fast reactions and movement than boneskinner. Give them a try :)

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Rodrick.1942Rodrick.1942 Member ✭✭✭

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @whoeverxwins.1279 said:
    Casual player here. Did boneskinner strike for first time this week. Was it hard? Sure. Was it fun? Yes! Been doing strikes and enjoying them on my healbrand, actually considering getting into some raids, despite my arthritis. Used to raid a lot in LOTRO and I do miss it.

    >
    It's good to hear that bro, welcome to join us :+1:

  • I'm so glad the boneskinner is the way it is. Every other strike is kitten easy brain dead content with no punishing mechanics u can face roll all the apes and auto strike to win .....

    No. Alot of players are too used to playing content they are guaranteed to win.
    Strikes was designed at the intention of making a bridge for players to get into raiding and the skinner would be the closest boss to raids out of the lot. Anet definitely should keep this up with the difficulty so players get a good understanding of what raids can be like and the importance of BUILDS, MECHANICS AND RES'ING

  • Taygus.4571Taygus.4571 Member ✭✭✭✭

    the bone skinner is an excellent strike mission.. and I honestly think Anet is succeeding in their increase difficulty of strikes goal, to get people more comfortable with raids..and importantly..able to play their class better.

  • Shikaru.7618Shikaru.7618 Member ✭✭✭

    @Taygus.4571 said:
    the bone skinner is an excellent strike mission.. and I honestly think Anet is succeeding in their increase difficulty of strikes goal, to get people more comfortable with raids..and importantly..able to play their class better.

    I'm unsure if the latter is true. Most people who struggle with boneskinner just quit the squad and go back to their throw feces at the keyboard like a monkey style gameplay. Anecdotally I've never met anyone in squad that went "wow that was fun, I want to try other hard content in the game" though I'm sure a tiny tiny portion of you probably exist. The sad truth is if the encounter cant be solved by pressing 1, its "too hard, too gimmicky, too tedious" and the casual population disengages.

  • DeadlySynz.3471DeadlySynz.3471 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Alyster.9470 said:
    I dont see any elitism in strikes, asking for a specific role or class is not elitism, people need to understand this. The other 3 strikes are so easy and doable with random builds and squad composition, only boneskinner actually requires some good support and dps, instead of saying its too hard try to improve around it. No one is asking LI or KP for boneskinner strike, as long as you have a proper build know your role and get along with mechanics you will be fine. But if you want to kill it with a random build and ignoring mechanics while spamming 1, you will fail. There is already a lot of open world bosses that are braindead afk events, let the boneskinner be hard so that people who want to kill can learn new mechanics, roles and improve their skills.

    I've seen it in every strike i've ever joined. If Anet just deleted their accounts on the spot on their first offense, Gw2 would be a much better place.

  • Shikaru.7618Shikaru.7618 Member ✭✭✭

    @DeadlySynz.3471 said:

    @Alyster.9470 said:
    I dont see any elitism in strikes, asking for a specific role or class is not elitism, people need to understand this. The other 3 strikes are so easy and doable with random builds and squad composition, only boneskinner actually requires some good support and dps, instead of saying its too hard try to improve around it. No one is asking LI or KP for boneskinner strike, as long as you have a proper build know your role and get along with mechanics you will be fine. But if you want to kill it with a random build and ignoring mechanics while spamming 1, you will fail. There is already a lot of open world bosses that are braindead afk events, let the boneskinner be hard so that people who want to kill can learn new mechanics, roles and improve their skills.

    I've seen it in every strike i've ever joined. If Anet just deleted their accounts on the spot on their first offense, Gw2 would be a much better place.

    And what do you consider to be elitist behavior? Please tell us what kind of bad apples you've met in strikes

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 29, 2019

    @DoRi Silvia.4159 said:
    I'm so glad the boneskinner is the way it is. Every other strike is kitten easy brain dead content with no punishing mechanics u can face roll all the apes and auto strike to win .....

    No. Alot of players are too used to playing content they are guaranteed to win.
    Strikes was designed at the intention of making a bridge for players to get into raiding and the skinner would be the closest boss to raids out of the lot. Anet definitely should keep this up with the difficulty so players get a good understanding of what raids can be like and the importance of BUILDS, MECHANICS AND RES'ING

    The issue i see, is thats not what happens. ive done a decent number of raids, and i dont even do the boneskinner SM. most of the casual population -stops- if they cant win a fight by just pressing 1, and if ANET wants players to make the bridge from SM's to raids i see it failing before to long, none of my friends who play who do raids do SMS either so im left to PUG, and thats just...no.

    Amana Silentchild; My Main
    Ember Wandertooth; The Kingslayer, Kianda Redpaw; The Blazing Light
    Why GW is Called Guildwars

  • DoRi Silvia.4159DoRi Silvia.4159 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 29, 2019

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @DoRi Silvia.4159 said:
    I'm so glad the boneskinner is the way it is. Every other strike is kitten easy brain dead content with no punishing mechanics u can face roll all the apes and auto strike to win .....

    No. Alot of players are too used to playing content they are guaranteed to win.
    Strikes was designed at the intention of making a bridge for players to get into raiding and the skinner would be the closest boss to raids out of the lot. Anet definitely should keep this up with the difficulty so players get a good understanding of what raids can be like and the importance of BUILDS, MECHANICS AND RES'ING

    The issue i see, is thats not what happens. ive done a decent number of raids, and i dont even do the boneskinner SM. most of the casual population -stops- if they cant win a fight by just pressing 1, and if ANET wants players to make the bridge from SM's to raids i see it failing before to long, none of my friends who play who do raids do SMS either so im left to PUG, and thats just...no.

    Yes yes it's very similar to what I was explaining
    Most of the casuals auto attack to win and quit if they cant win that way

    But people need to realise how are they going to get to raid standard performance if they dont practice in advance.. I think the bone skinner was a really good intro to raids as it has multiple mechanics where it can wipe out the group just like raids.. it shows that you need to DODGE mechanics and actually use skills instead of just face tanking all mechanics and just 111111

    Way I see it Anet has done a good job with strikes and as it progresses and becomes more difficult people who are interested can keep getting better at mechanics and hopefully it will spark a interest to raiding.

    Ps, I've been doing skinner on pug daily this whole week and have always atleast landed a silver reward.. I think it's just the time of the day and maybe joining a exp group if you are gonna pug skinner

  • Alyster.9470Alyster.9470 Member ✭✭✭

    @DeadlySynz.3471 said:

    @Alyster.9470 said:
    I dont see any elitism in strikes, asking for a specific role or class is not elitism, people need to understand this. The other 3 strikes are so easy and doable with random builds and squad composition, only boneskinner actually requires some good support and dps, instead of saying its too hard try to improve around it. No one is asking LI or KP for boneskinner strike, as long as you have a proper build know your role and get along with mechanics you will be fine. But if you want to kill it with a random build and ignoring mechanics while spamming 1, you will fail. There is already a lot of open world bosses that are braindead afk events, let the boneskinner be hard so that people who want to kill can learn new mechanics, roles and improve their skills.

    I've seen it in every strike i've ever joined. If Anet just deleted their accounts on the spot on their first offense, Gw2 would be a much better place.

    Requesting a class is elitism? So for ex. If I want winter tires for my car in winter but not summer tires, am I a toxic elitist and need get my drivers license cancelled?!

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DeadlySynz.3471 said:

    @Alyster.9470 said:
    I dont see any elitism in strikes, asking for a specific role or class is not elitism, people need to understand this. The other 3 strikes are so easy and doable with random builds and squad composition, only boneskinner actually requires some good support and dps, instead of saying its too hard try to improve around it. No one is asking LI or KP for boneskinner strike, as long as you have a proper build know your role and get along with mechanics you will be fine. But if you want to kill it with a random build and ignoring mechanics while spamming 1, you will fail. There is already a lot of open world bosses that are braindead afk events, let the boneskinner be hard so that people who want to kill can learn new mechanics, roles and improve their skills.

    I've seen it in every strike i've ever joined. If Anet just deleted their accounts on the spot on their first offense, Gw2 would be a much better place.

    Afraid to say, but sometimes a minion mancer just doesn't cut it when there are damage or CC requirements... :P

  • whoeverxwins.1279whoeverxwins.1279 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 29, 2019

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @DoRi Silvia.4159 said:
    I'm so glad the boneskinner is the way it is. Every other strike is kitten easy brain dead content with no punishing mechanics u can face roll all the apes and auto strike to win .....

    No. Alot of players are too used to playing content they are guaranteed to win.
    Strikes was designed at the intention of making a bridge for players to get into raiding and the skinner would be the closest boss to raids out of the lot. Anet definitely should keep this up with the difficulty so players get a good understanding of what raids can be like and the importance of BUILDS, MECHANICS AND RES'ING

    The issue i see, is thats not what happens. ive done a decent number of raids, and i dont even do the boneskinner SM. most of the casual population -stops- if they cant win a fight by just pressing 1, and if ANET wants players to make the bridge from SM's to raids i see it failing before to long, none of my friends who play who do raids do SMS either so im left to PUG, and thats just...no.

    Well, I don't just 11111 anything, but still consider myself pretty casual. Lucky if I can play 3 days a week, rheumatoid arthritis developing in both hands, lupus. I can dodge though, some days better than others. Maybe because I have raided in other games in the past I am enjoying the challenge and hopeful that I can raid again. Used to raid quite a bit in LOTRO (minstrel -
    healer and lore master - cc) before those became pure DPS fests. Probably showing my age there...

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DoRi Silvia.4159 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @DoRi Silvia.4159 said:
    I'm so glad the boneskinner is the way it is. Every other strike is kitten easy brain dead content with no punishing mechanics u can face roll all the apes and auto strike to win .....

    No. Alot of players are too used to playing content they are guaranteed to win.
    Strikes was designed at the intention of making a bridge for players to get into raiding and the skinner would be the closest boss to raids out of the lot. Anet definitely should keep this up with the difficulty so players get a good understanding of what raids can be like and the importance of BUILDS, MECHANICS AND RES'ING

    The issue i see, is thats not what happens. ive done a decent number of raids, and i dont even do the boneskinner SM. most of the casual population -stops- if they cant win a fight by just pressing 1, and if ANET wants players to make the bridge from SM's to raids i see it failing before to long, none of my friends who play who do raids do SMS either so im left to PUG, and thats just...no.

    Yes yes it's very similar to what I was explaining
    Most of the casuals auto attack to win and quit if they cant win that way

    But people need to realise how are they going to get to raid standard performance if they dont practice in advance.. I think the bone skinner was a really good intro to raids as it has multiple mechanics where it can wipe out the group just like raids.. it shows that you need to DODGE mechanics and actually use skills instead of just face tanking all mechanics and just 111111

    Way I see it Anet has done a good job with strikes and as it progresses and becomes more difficult people who are interested can keep getting better at mechanics and hopefully it will spark a interest to raiding.

    Ps, I've been doing skinner on pug daily this whole week and have always atleast landed a silver reward.. I think it's just the time of the day and maybe joining a exp group if you are gonna pug skinner

    People arent going to keep playing, thats my point. When the strike missions get to hard to complete with more than a bronze reward players will stop(seriously get rid of the timer, its the opposite of fun if you are doing a training run and it takes longer but you still finish it to get none of the rewards, i unno who thought that would be a good idea, but i dont think it is.)

    The vast majority of players -dont care to learn the mechanics, they want to play an easy game- And if anet wants to keep going down the strike mission path they need to keep that in mind, i cant see Sms being popular for long if they keep them on the same level as the Boneskinner one.

    If you thought threads complaining about story missions where hard, id standby for the SMs complaints and then nerfs because the majority of the community isnt able to complete them.

    For the most part, players who do raids and the vast majority who just do PVE are on entirely different levels and play styles, and that always needs to be remembered by the devs. They know the shockingly large DPS variations between player skill levels, and its only gotten larger as the game has gotten older.

    PS, I dont do SMs anymore. I did them once got the achievements and stopped, they just arent fun. Grothmar is really easy, two of the three Bjora marches are annoying AF not even hard, just annoying(Boneskinner and the Twins), and the third one was just to easy, add to that, again the lack of rewards. SMS give -nothing-, especially if you dont get higher than bronze. Why would i waste my time? They dont have unique armor(bought all the grothmaw ones from the TP cause the drop rate is trash in this game) or weapons tied to them that can only be gotten from the end chests, so ill go do something else.

    Amana Silentchild; My Main
    Ember Wandertooth; The Kingslayer, Kianda Redpaw; The Blazing Light
    Why GW is Called Guildwars

  • Taygus.4571Taygus.4571 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @DoRi Silvia.4159 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @DoRi Silvia.4159 said:
    I'm so glad the boneskinner is the way it is. Every other strike is kitten easy brain dead content with no punishing mechanics u can face roll all the apes and auto strike to win .....

    No. Alot of players are too used to playing content they are guaranteed to win.
    Strikes was designed at the intention of making a bridge for players to get into raiding and the skinner would be the closest boss to raids out of the lot. Anet definitely should keep this up with the difficulty so players get a good understanding of what raids can be like and the importance of BUILDS, MECHANICS AND RES'ING

    The issue i see, is thats not what happens. ive done a decent number of raids, and i dont even do the boneskinner SM. most of the casual population -stops- if they cant win a fight by just pressing 1, and if ANET wants players to make the bridge from SM's to raids i see it failing before to long, none of my friends who play who do raids do SMS either so im left to PUG, and thats just...no.

    Yes yes it's very similar to what I was explaining
    Most of the casuals auto attack to win and quit if they cant win that way

    But people need to realise how are they going to get to raid standard performance if they dont practice in advance.. I think the bone skinner was a really good intro to raids as it has multiple mechanics where it can wipe out the group just like raids.. it shows that you need to DODGE mechanics and actually use skills instead of just face tanking all mechanics and just 111111

    Way I see it Anet has done a good job with strikes and as it progresses and becomes more difficult people who are interested can keep getting better at mechanics and hopefully it will spark a interest to raiding.

    Ps, I've been doing skinner on pug daily this whole week and have always atleast landed a silver reward.. I think it's just the time of the day and maybe joining a exp group if you are gonna pug skinner

    People arent going to keep playing, thats my point. When the strike missions get to hard to complete with more than a bronze reward players will stop(seriously get rid of the timer, its the opposite of fun if you are doing a training run and it takes longer but you still finish it to get none of the rewards, i unno who thought that would be a good idea, but i dont think it is.)

    The vast majority of players -dont care to learn the mechanics, they want to play an easy game- And if anet wants to keep going down the strike mission path they need to keep that in mind, i cant see Sms being popular for long if they keep them on the same level as the Boneskinner one.

    If you thought threads complaining about story missions where hard, id standby for the SMs complaints and then nerfs because the majority of the community isnt able to complete them.

    For the most part, players who do raids and the vast majority who just do PVE are on entirely different levels and play styles, and that always needs to be remembered by the devs. They know the shockingly large DPS variations between player skill levels, and its only gotten larger as the game has gotten older.

    PS, I dont do SMs anymore. I did them once got the achievements and stopped, they just arent fun. Grothmar is really easy, two of the three Bjora marches are annoying AF not even hard, just annoying(Boneskinner and the Twins), and the third one was just to easy, add to that, again the lack of rewards. SMS give -nothing-, especially if you dont get higher than bronze. Why would i waste my time? They dont have unique armor(bought all the grothmaw ones from the TP cause the drop rate is trash in this game) or weapons tied to them that can only be gotten from the end chests, so ill go do something else.

    They're not fun because the rewards aren't worth the effort.

    Removing the timer won't change that.

    Strikes beed their own currency where you can buy stat selectable exotic armor. Helpful, without taking from raids.

  • DirtyDan.4759DirtyDan.4759 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 29, 2019

    @LordMorgul.9845 said:
    also most raids fails for the time pressure and not for the mechs

    This is so wrong. Raids fail almost exclusively because of mechanics. Why do people wipe at VG? Because of the explosion from not doing greens while failing overheal. Why do people fail Qadim? Because they don't cc or let 12 ads get to Qadim and then die. Why do people wipe Dhuum? Because a reaper dies or the bomb kills too many people. Largos? People don't dodge. Sabetha? People don't do canons, don't kick heavy bombs, die to flamewall. KC? Letting projections merge.

    There is no fight in this game that when mechanically excecuted perfectly fails to the timer because even then you can continue, as shown in a 10 heal tempest vg kill.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 29, 2019

    Balance reward and adding unique ones is way to go, no matter if is hard or easy, ppl tend to leave it alone if dont had proper reward. Since theres no vertical progression in this game, then the reward is the last one thing left.

    main pvp: Khel the Undead(power reaper).

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 29, 2019

    @Dante.1763 said:
    If you thought threads complaining about story missions where hard, id standby for the SMs complaints and then nerfs because the majority of the community isnt able to complete them.

    That's true only if they want the majority of the community to complete all Strike Missions. Every content type has a variety of difficulty settings, there are easy dungeons, fractals, raids and meta events and there are hard ones. Outside the Boneskinner Strike Missions have been on the easier side, with the exception of Icebrood Construct which is solo difficulty. There is no reason to nerf a specific Strike Mission, the entire reason for the existence of Strike Missions is to teach players mechanics and bridge the gap with harder content, this cannot be accomplished if all Strike Missions are an easy mode, rather a progressive difficulty curve is required so their intended purpose can be fulfilled.

    If someone finds Boneskinner too hard, they can go to the other Strike Missions and get better at playing the game. That's how all instanced content worked so far and Strike Missions cannot be an exception.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @LordMorgul.9845 said:
    so basically we got strike to make pp happy whit raid-like content, but the "raid elitist" strikes again let me explain, this week there is the boneskinner is op as hell, more like a raid than a strike pugs go there and wiped, and that is very punitive... what they will learn ? to die?, i know u want pp enjoy the contents, but if those have a high pick on difficulty, most of the pve open party pp that don't do raid will get wiped easily, also u want this pp join in raid i suppose... i like hard contents like cm's and i do raid, but i tink more pp wil do and will enjoiy raiding if you simply split into not timed and timed raids , becouse i tink this is the main thing to make pp easy learn mechs, also most raids fails for the time pressure and not for the mechs, and whit that u also will avoid dps check toxicity by some kind of players. in fractal u have 4 different level maked for pp to learn and improve, raid don't have that also strike don't have (but they are supposed to be the easy raid like content) but if u push whit elitist and hard content pp will leave.

    Hmm fail to time preasure and not to mechanics.. explain why some1 then can solo a raid boss

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Shikaru.7618Shikaru.7618 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 29, 2019

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:
    If you thought threads complaining about story missions where hard, id standby for the SMs complaints and then nerfs because the majority of the community isnt able to complete them.

    That's true only if they want the majority of the community to complete all Strike Missions. Every content type has a variety of difficulty settings, there are easy dungeons, fractals, raids and meta events and there are hard ones. Outside the Boneskinner Strike Missions have been on the easier side, with the exception of Icebrood Construct which is solo difficulty. There is no reason to nerf a specific Strike Mission, the entire reason for the existence of Strike Missions is to teach players mechanics and bridge the gap with harder content, this cannot be accomplished if all Strike Missions are an easy mode, rather a progressive difficulty curve is required so their intended purpose can be fulfilled.

    If someone finds Boneskinner too hard, they can go to the other Strike Missions and get better at playing the game. That's how all instanced content worked so far and Strike Missions cannot be an exception.

    I think in theory this works if all players have a growth mindset. Because progression in this game is largely skill gates and not gear gates, it's pretty difficult for the casual to see progression. They just know that they're wiping but other than boss %, it's hard to tell if one wipe is improvement from another wipe. Also getting a boss to 50% one run then dying the next run at 70%, does that mean backwards progress for the individual has been made? What I observe is that the casual player sees a plateau in skill progression because they are allowed to opt out when something gets too hard, and no guidance is given by the game on how to overcome their current skill gate.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shikaru.7618 said:
    I think in theory this works if all players have a growth mindset. Because progression in this game is largely skill gates and not gear gates, it's pretty difficult for the casual to see progression. They just know that they're wiping but other than boss %, it's hard to tell if one wipe is improvement from another wipe. Also getting a boss to 50% one run then dying the next run at 70%, does that mean backwards progress for the individual has been made? What I observe is that the casual player sees a plateau in skill progression because they are allowed to opt out when something gets too hard, and no guidance is given by the game on how to overcome their current skill gate.

    Maybe a solution would be for Arenanet to mark the harder pieces of content as such. Say "Strike Mission 1: Easy", "Strike Mission 2: Challenging", "Strike Mission 3: Average" and so on. Similar system could work on most other types of content too like dungeons and Raids, because not everyone reads forums or reddit or other websites to figure out that one Strike Mission can be harder than another one. The guidance to overcome a skill gate already exists, it's called participation medals, if you barely get Bronze in an easy Strike Mission don't expect to get Bronze in the hardest one. Getting higher tiers of medals means getting better at playing the game, which would eventually lead to success in the more challenging missions. They could use the participation system as guidance and add labels to further guide players through their training.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I like Grot strike .. Bjora strike, after Boneskiner update come not valuable and toxic. So nowadays I do only Grot stirke ..

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Shikaru.7618 said:
    I think in theory this works if all players have a growth mindset. Because progression in this game is largely skill gates and not gear gates, it's pretty difficult for the casual to see progression. They just know that they're wiping but other than boss %, it's hard to tell if one wipe is improvement from another wipe. Also getting a boss to 50% one run then dying the next run at 70%, does that mean backwards progress for the individual has been made? What I observe is that the casual player sees a plateau in skill progression because they are allowed to opt out when something gets too hard, and no guidance is given by the game on how to overcome their current skill gate.

    Maybe a solution would be for Arenanet to mark the harder pieces of content as such. Say "Strike Mission 1: Easy", "Strike Mission 2: Challenging", "Strike Mission 3: Average" and so on. Similar system could work on most other types of content too like dungeons and Raids, because not everyone reads forums or reddit or other websites to figure out that one Strike Mission can be harder than another one. The guidance to overcome a skill gate already exists, it's called participation medals, if you barely get Bronze in an easy Strike Mission don't expect to get Bronze in the hardest one. Getting higher tiers of medals means getting better at playing the game, which would eventually lead to success in the more challenging missions. They could use the participation system as guidance and add labels to further guide players through their training.

    Errrr..ive gotten bronze because the rest of my group didnt do enough DPS on some of them, should i have stayed at the same SM level? No, that idea is flawed heavily. There is no guidance in game that will show a player(individually) is getting better unless they use third party tools. Also Shikaru is right, your mindset and anets mindset only works for a probably small portion of the playerbase, and i have no clue if that portion is big enough to re energize raids.

    Amana Silentchild; My Main
    Ember Wandertooth; The Kingslayer, Kianda Redpaw; The Blazing Light
    Why GW is Called Guildwars

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Shikaru.7618 said:
    I think in theory this works if all players have a growth mindset. Because progression in this game is largely skill gates and not gear gates, it's pretty difficult for the casual to see progression. They just know that they're wiping but other than boss %, it's hard to tell if one wipe is improvement from another wipe. Also getting a boss to 50% one run then dying the next run at 70%, does that mean backwards progress for the individual has been made? What I observe is that the casual player sees a plateau in skill progression because they are allowed to opt out when something gets too hard, and no guidance is given by the game on how to overcome their current skill gate.

    Maybe a solution would be for Arenanet to mark the harder pieces of content as such. Say "Strike Mission 1: Easy", "Strike Mission 2: Challenging", "Strike Mission 3: Average" and so on. Similar system could work on most other types of content too like dungeons and Raids, because not everyone reads forums or reddit or other websites to figure out that one Strike Mission can be harder than another one. The guidance to overcome a skill gate already exists, it's called participation medals, if you barely get Bronze in an easy Strike Mission don't expect to get Bronze in the hardest one. Getting higher tiers of medals means getting better at playing the game, which would eventually lead to success in the more challenging missions. They could use the participation system as guidance and add labels to further guide players through their training.

    Errrr..ive gotten bronze because the rest of my group didnt do enough DPS on some of them, should i have stayed at the same SM level? No, that idea is flawed heavily. There is no guidance in game that will show a player(individually) is getting better unless they use third party tools. Also Shikaru is right, your mindset and anets mindset only works for a probably small portion of the playerbase, and i have no clue if that portion is big enough to re energize raids.

    If you know you did good dps, but the rest of the group was the problem, then you already know you can move on to the next SM level. But a player that cannot possibly know/understand if their dps is good enough or not, the medals are an average indicator. And I'm sure the majority of the playerbase doesn't know how terrible they are at playing the game. If they knew then they wouldn't have an issue adapting to higher difficulty content.

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Shikaru.7618 said:
    I think in theory this works if all players have a growth mindset. Because progression in this game is largely skill gates and not gear gates, it's pretty difficult for the casual to see progression. They just know that they're wiping but other than boss %, it's hard to tell if one wipe is improvement from another wipe. Also getting a boss to 50% one run then dying the next run at 70%, does that mean backwards progress for the individual has been made? What I observe is that the casual player sees a plateau in skill progression because they are allowed to opt out when something gets too hard, and no guidance is given by the game on how to overcome their current skill gate.

    Maybe a solution would be for Arenanet to mark the harder pieces of content as such. Say "Strike Mission 1: Easy", "Strike Mission 2: Challenging", "Strike Mission 3: Average" and so on. Similar system could work on most other types of content too like dungeons and Raids, because not everyone reads forums or reddit or other websites to figure out that one Strike Mission can be harder than another one. The guidance to overcome a skill gate already exists, it's called participation medals, if you barely get Bronze in an easy Strike Mission don't expect to get Bronze in the hardest one. Getting higher tiers of medals means getting better at playing the game, which would eventually lead to success in the more challenging missions. They could use the participation system as guidance and add labels to further guide players through their training.

    Errrr..ive gotten bronze because the rest of my group didnt do enough DPS on some of them, should i have stayed at the same SM level? No, that idea is flawed heavily. There is no guidance in game that will show a player(individually) is getting better unless they use third party tools. Also Shikaru is right, your mindset and anets mindset only works for a probably small portion of the playerbase, and i have no clue if that portion is big enough to re energize raids.

    If you know you did good dps, but the rest of the group was the problem, then you already know you can move on to the next SM level. But a player that cannot possibly know/understand if their dps is good enough or not, the medals are an average indicator. And I'm sure the majority of the playerbase doesn't know how terrible they are at playing the game. If they knew then they wouldn't have an issue adapting to higher difficulty content.

    Oh i agree, they dont know thats the problem at large but the really vocal community doesnt want any in game way to tell either and its a shame. I was really against DPS meters until i started raiding and knowing my numbers for sure helped...went from doing 9k dps(condi) to 15k on average. Without the tools in game though, its not gonna get better.

    Which is interesting because its -not- hard to do better IG, you dont even have to know your class!

    Amana Silentchild; My Main
    Ember Wandertooth; The Kingslayer, Kianda Redpaw; The Blazing Light
    Why GW is Called Guildwars

  • Shikaru.7618Shikaru.7618 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Shikaru.7618 said:
    I think in theory this works if all players have a growth mindset. Because progression in this game is largely skill gates and not gear gates, it's pretty difficult for the casual to see progression. They just know that they're wiping but other than boss %, it's hard to tell if one wipe is improvement from another wipe. Also getting a boss to 50% one run then dying the next run at 70%, does that mean backwards progress for the individual has been made? What I observe is that the casual player sees a plateau in skill progression because they are allowed to opt out when something gets too hard, and no guidance is given by the game on how to overcome their current skill gate.

    Maybe a solution would be for Arenanet to mark the harder pieces of content as such. Say "Strike Mission 1: Easy", "Strike Mission 2: Challenging", "Strike Mission 3: Average" and so on. Similar system could work on most other types of content too like dungeons and Raids, because not everyone reads forums or reddit or other websites to figure out that one Strike Mission can be harder than another one. The guidance to overcome a skill gate already exists, it's called participation medals, if you barely get Bronze in an easy Strike Mission don't expect to get Bronze in the hardest one. Getting higher tiers of medals means getting better at playing the game, which would eventually lead to success in the more challenging missions. They could use the participation system as guidance and add labels to further guide players through their training.

    Errrr..ive gotten bronze because the rest of my group didnt do enough DPS on some of them, should i have stayed at the same SM level? No, that idea is flawed heavily. There is no guidance in game that will show a player(individually) is getting better unless they use third party tools. Also Shikaru is right, your mindset and anets mindset only works for a probably small portion of the playerbase, and i have no clue if that portion is big enough to re energize raids.

    If you know you did good dps, but the rest of the group was the problem, then you already know you can move on to the next SM level. But a player that cannot possibly know/understand if their dps is good enough or not, the medals are an average indicator. And I'm sure the majority of the playerbase doesn't know how terrible they are at playing the game. If they knew then they wouldn't have an issue adapting to higher difficulty content.

    Oh i agree, they dont know thats the problem at large but the really vocal community doesnt want any in game way to tell either and its a shame. I was really against DPS meters until i started raiding and knowing my numbers for sure helped...went from doing 9k dps(condi) to 15k on average. Without the tools in game though, its not gonna get better.

    Which is interesting because its -not- hard to do better IG, you dont even have to know your class!

    This is where the folks who "play games to relax" come from. Performance tracking causes stress because who wants to be told that their damage output has an F rating? I'd imagine it's the equivalent of lounging on the beach and someone telling you, you're fat. They're not wrong, but who wants that kind of stress? I'd imagine a lot of casual folks want to hop in, kill a quick boss, feel like they contributed (either actually or dellusionally) and hop out. Once players are faced with the reality that they're "not good enough" very few will actually climb the skill ladder to be good enough but instead just say screw it, I'm out.

    Humans were not built to be humble, especially not when it comes to entertainment.

  • DirtyDan.4759DirtyDan.4759 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 1, 2020

    [please delete this comment]

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    If there is one thing you learn by leading raid training groups for a while then that's that the majority of players seems to greatly overestimate their own knowledge of the game and their ability to play any remotely hard content. And honestly, why wouldn't they? The game has been historically terrible at teaching players anything about mechanics, boons, and so much else. It became even worse after the game that was supposed to not have any build trinity ended up with it's own and rather "unique trinity" of support and DPS builds with the release of HoT and raids. Feel like this needs to be said no matter how often we bring it up.

    Strikes are well designed and exactly as they should be if they manage to do their small part to fix this problem, even better if they end up being a stepping stone towards raids (seems to be the case for some players here). And there is still "just some" casual content with the easier bosses for those who are not interested in any of this other than enjoying another "111" boss or two.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • i have read a lot of post and i see your point of view, but like some other says, the majority of players don't enjoy some content for some of the difficulty and the punishiment also there is not learning curve, no proper rewards and motivation for someone to do some contents, and if u tink this is my personal problem u are wrong i raid easy and starting raiding cm, i do my jobs like daily cm fractals and raids whit no issue but this it's me; so u need to understand that i'm talking for all those players (that mostly also ignore the forum) that don't do contents and abbandon game becouse of the issues i talked, so i wanna you all to step off 1 second out of your "if i can do they can do" mind and imagine contents enjoinable by ALL, also i don't want to touch your need of "dark souls mmo" but i tink, just introducing like in gw1 difficulty scale for fluffy pp all will enjoy the game they way they want. PS reward strike is kitten not wort at all...

  • xDudisx.5914xDudisx.5914 Member ✭✭✭

    @DirtyDan.4759 said:

    @LordMorgul.9845 said:
    also most raids fails for the time pressure and not for the mechs

    This is so wrong. Raids fail almost exclusively because of mechanics. Why do people wipe at VG? Because of the explosion from not doing greens while failing overheal. Why do people fail Qadim? Because they don't cc or let 12 ads get to Qadim and then die. Why do people wipe Dhuum? Because a reaper dies or the bomb kills too many people. Largos? People don't dodge. Sabetha? People don't do canons, don't kick heavy bombs, die to flamewall. KC? Letting projections merge.

    There is no fight in this game that when mechanically excecuted perfectly fails to the timer because even then you can continue, as shown in a 10 heal tempest vg kill.

    He is partially right. If there were no timer we would see people running entire groups of bunker builds to slowly kill all bosses that have no one shot mechanic. The timer is part of the reason people wipe again and again. If you remove timer there would be people running full minstrel gear, ignoring all mechanics and killing VG face tanking.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 18, 2020

    @xDudisx.5914 said:

    @DirtyDan.4759 said:

    @LordMorgul.9845 said:
    also most raids fails for the time pressure and not for the mechs

    This is so wrong. Raids fail almost exclusively because of mechanics. Why do people wipe at VG? Because of the explosion from not doing greens while failing overheal. Why do people fail Qadim? Because they don't cc or let 12 ads get to Qadim and then die. Why do people wipe Dhuum? Because a reaper dies or the bomb kills too many people. Largos? People don't dodge. Sabetha? People don't do canons, don't kick heavy bombs, die to flamewall. KC? Letting projections merge.

    There is no fight in this game that when mechanically excecuted perfectly fails to the timer because even then you can continue, as shown in a 10 heal tempest vg kill.

    He is partially right. If there were no timer we would see people running entire groups of bunker builds to slowly kill all bosses that have no one shot mechanic. The timer is part of the reason people wipe again and again. If you remove timer there would be people running full minstrel gear, ignoring all mechanics and killing VG face tanking.

    Tho VG like many other bosses can be killed like that already. When VG enrages he only gains 200% more damage and that really is not a big deal

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • DirtyDan.4759DirtyDan.4759 Member ✭✭✭

    @xDudisx.5914 said:

    @DirtyDan.4759 said:

    @LordMorgul.9845 said:
    also most raids fails for the time pressure and not for the mechs

    This is so wrong. Raids fail almost exclusively because of mechanics. Why do people wipe at VG? Because of the explosion from not doing greens while failing overheal. Why do people fail Qadim? Because they don't cc or let 12 ads get to Qadim and then die. Why do people wipe Dhuum? Because a reaper dies or the bomb kills too many people. Largos? People don't dodge. Sabetha? People don't do canons, don't kick heavy bombs, die to flamewall. KC? Letting projections merge.

    There is no fight in this game that when mechanically excecuted perfectly fails to the timer because even then you can continue, as shown in a 10 heal tempest vg kill.

    He is partially right. If there were no timer we would see people running entire groups of bunker builds to slowly kill all bosses that have no one shot mechanic. The timer is part of the reason people wipe again and again. If you remove timer there would be people running full minstrel gear, ignoring all mechanics and killing VG face tanking.

    Running bunker builds wont prevent you from getting ported and then killed by the green explosion.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @LordMorgul.9845 said:
    so i wanna you all to step off 1 second out of your "if i can do they can do" mind and imagine contents enjoinable by ALL

    Which content is "enjoyable by all"?

  • Better strike missions than raids like W7.

    Master of garbage builds and being useless.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 19, 2020

    @Taygus.4571 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @DoRi Silvia.4159 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @DoRi Silvia.4159 said:
    I'm so glad the boneskinner is the way it is. Every other strike is kitten easy brain dead content with no punishing mechanics u can face roll all the apes and auto strike to win .....

    No. Alot of players are too used to playing content they are guaranteed to win.
    Strikes was designed at the intention of making a bridge for players to get into raiding and the skinner would be the closest boss to raids out of the lot. Anet definitely should keep this up with the difficulty so players get a good understanding of what raids can be like and the importance of BUILDS, MECHANICS AND RES'ING

    The issue i see, is thats not what happens. ive done a decent number of raids, and i dont even do the boneskinner SM. most of the casual population -stops- if they cant win a fight by just pressing 1, and if ANET wants players to make the bridge from SM's to raids i see it failing before to long, none of my friends who play who do raids do SMS either so im left to PUG, and thats just...no.

    Yes yes it's very similar to what I was explaining
    Most of the casuals auto attack to win and quit if they cant win that way

    But people need to realise how are they going to get to raid standard performance if they dont practice in advance.. I think the bone skinner was a really good intro to raids as it has multiple mechanics where it can wipe out the group just like raids.. it shows that you need to DODGE mechanics and actually use skills instead of just face tanking all mechanics and just 111111

    Way I see it Anet has done a good job with strikes and as it progresses and becomes more difficult people who are interested can keep getting better at mechanics and hopefully it will spark a interest to raiding.

    Ps, I've been doing skinner on pug daily this whole week and have always atleast landed a silver reward.. I think it's just the time of the day and maybe joining a exp group if you are gonna pug skinner

    People arent going to keep playing, thats my point. When the strike missions get to hard to complete with more than a bronze reward players will stop(seriously get rid of the timer, its the opposite of fun if you are doing a training run and it takes longer but you still finish it to get none of the rewards, i unno who thought that would be a good idea, but i dont think it is.)

    The vast majority of players -dont care to learn the mechanics, they want to play an easy game- And if anet wants to keep going down the strike mission path they need to keep that in mind, i cant see Sms being popular for long if they keep them on the same level as the Boneskinner one.

    If you thought threads complaining about story missions where hard, id standby for the SMs complaints and then nerfs because the majority of the community isnt able to complete them.

    For the most part, players who do raids and the vast majority who just do PVE are on entirely different levels and play styles, and that always needs to be remembered by the devs. They know the shockingly large DPS variations between player skill levels, and its only gotten larger as the game has gotten older.

    PS, I dont do SMs anymore. I did them once got the achievements and stopped, they just arent fun. Grothmar is really easy, two of the three Bjora marches are annoying AF not even hard, just annoying(Boneskinner and the Twins), and the third one was just to easy, add to that, again the lack of rewards. SMS give -nothing-, especially if you dont get higher than bronze. Why would i waste my time? They dont have unique armor(bought all the grothmaw ones from the TP cause the drop rate is trash in this game) or weapons tied to them that can only be gotten from the end chests, so ill go do something else.

    They're not fun because the rewards aren't worth the effort.

    Removing the timer won't change that.

    Strikes beed their own currency where you can buy stat selectable exotic armor. Helpful, without taking from raids.

    I agree, Strikes need a (better) reward system, maybe something like a the Dungeon Token system with different amounts of Tokens earned depending on the difficulty of the strike.
    These Tokens could then ideally be redeemed for some preliminary gear and cosmetics.
    The problem with removing the time limit would be, since some of the Strikes are already so incredibly easy, that you could just walk in there with a Thief with Invigorating Precision, activate auto attack and then tab out and go afk and come back in a few minutes to collect your loot (at least with Icebrood Construct).
    Right now, people at least need to go through the effort to multi box to afk do Strikes, not that any of that is worth to do with the current lack of rewards, but still.

    @Shikaru.7618 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Shikaru.7618 said:
    I think in theory this works if all players have a growth mindset. Because progression in this game is largely skill gates and not gear gates, it's pretty difficult for the casual to see progression. They just know that they're wiping but other than boss %, it's hard to tell if one wipe is improvement from another wipe. Also getting a boss to 50% one run then dying the next run at 70%, does that mean backwards progress for the individual has been made? What I observe is that the casual player sees a plateau in skill progression because they are allowed to opt out when something gets too hard, and no guidance is given by the game on how to overcome their current skill gate.

    Maybe a solution would be for Arenanet to mark the harder pieces of content as such. Say "Strike Mission 1: Easy", "Strike Mission 2: Challenging", "Strike Mission 3: Average" and so on. Similar system could work on most other types of content too like dungeons and Raids, because not everyone reads forums or reddit or other websites to figure out that one Strike Mission can be harder than another one. The guidance to overcome a skill gate already exists, it's called participation medals, if you barely get Bronze in an easy Strike Mission don't expect to get Bronze in the hardest one. Getting higher tiers of medals means getting better at playing the game, which would eventually lead to success in the more challenging missions. They could use the participation system as guidance and add labels to further guide players through their training.

    Errrr..ive gotten bronze because the rest of my group didnt do enough DPS on some of them, should i have stayed at the same SM level? No, that idea is flawed heavily. There is no guidance in game that will show a player(individually) is getting better unless they use third party tools. Also Shikaru is right, your mindset and anets mindset only works for a probably small portion of the playerbase, and i have no clue if that portion is big enough to re energize raids.

    If you know you did good dps, but the rest of the group was the problem, then you already know you can move on to the next SM level. But a player that cannot possibly know/understand if their dps is good enough or not, the medals are an average indicator. And I'm sure the majority of the playerbase doesn't know how terrible they are at playing the game. If they knew then they wouldn't have an issue adapting to higher difficulty content.

    Oh i agree, they dont know thats the problem at large but the really vocal community doesnt want any in game way to tell either and its a shame. I was really against DPS meters until i started raiding and knowing my numbers for sure helped...went from doing 9k dps(condi) to 15k on average. Without the tools in game though, its not gonna get better.

    Which is interesting because its -not- hard to do better IG, you dont even have to know your class!

    This is where the folks who "play games to relax" come from. Performance tracking causes stress because who wants to be told that their damage output has an F rating? I'd imagine it's the equivalent of lounging on the beach and someone telling you, you're fat. They're not wrong, but who wants that kind of stress? I'd imagine a lot of casual folks want to hop in, kill a quick boss, feel like they contributed (either actually or dellusionally) and hop out. Once players are faced with the reality that they're "not good enough" very few will actually climb the skill ladder to be good enough but instead just say screw it, I'm out.

    Humans were not built to be humble, especially not when it comes to entertainment.

    I honestly think you have a false perception of DPS Meter's. Once you use them yourself, unless you actively stress yourself for some reason about it, they are not a source of stress but of motivation. It just depends on how you use the tool.

    It's just something you can look at at occasions and notice interesting things for self-improvement. Like you might always frantically press all your buttons on cooldown, but while playing with a DPS meter instead you might notice when you leave some skills out entirely (and finish an AA chain instead) your DPS actually goes up, as the skills cast time/animation is too long in relation to the damage it does, when compared to just AA'ing. Then you might notice that's the case because it's a Utility/CC skill, making you more aware of keeping and using it at the proper moments to contribute to CC bars. Or making you more aware of burst windows, like DH's spear of justice, and how much your damage increases when you combo Traps, Symbols and other high damage skills into that window, instead of using them randomly.
    Similarly you might start to experiment with Traits and notice how massively some can improve your performance over others you might have thought were good or comparable.

    DPS's meters never added stress for me, rather they open up the game to a whole new level of exploration of gameplay, proving to be invaluable for self-improvement in a positive way.

    Rather than someone yelling at you on the beach telling you are are fat, think in terms of talking a walk with an app that tells you "good job, you walked X steps today", giving you positive reinforcement that inspires you to keep pushing for more, leading you to improvement and with that a feeling of accomplishment.

    Sure, without DPS Meter you never really know when you performed poorly, but conversely you also never really realise when and how you improved, which can motivate greatly to reach for further improvement for your own sake.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 19, 2020

    @DirtyDan.4759 said:

    @xDudisx.5914 said:

    @DirtyDan.4759 said:

    @LordMorgul.9845 said:
    also most raids fails for the time pressure and not for the mechs

    This is so wrong. Raids fail almost exclusively because of mechanics. Why do people wipe at VG? Because of the explosion from not doing greens while failing overheal. Why do people fail Qadim? Because they don't cc or let 12 ads get to Qadim and then die. Why do people wipe Dhuum? Because a reaper dies or the bomb kills too many people. Largos? People don't dodge. Sabetha? People don't do canons, don't kick heavy bombs, die to flamewall. KC? Letting projections merge.

    There is no fight in this game that when mechanically excecuted perfectly fails to the timer because even then you can continue, as shown in a 10 heal tempest vg kill.

    He is partially right. If there were no timer we would see people running entire groups of bunker builds to slowly kill all bosses that have no one shot mechanic. The timer is part of the reason people wipe again and again. If you remove timer there would be people running full minstrel gear, ignoring all mechanics and killing VG face tanking.

    Running bunker builds wont prevent you from getting ported and then killed by the green explosion.

    I mean sure it does. You can simply just outheal ur self just like healers can in the same scenario.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 19, 2020

    @Asum.4960 said:
    DPS's meters never added stress for me, rather they open up the game to a whole new level of exploration of gameplay, proving to be invaluable for self-improvement in a positive way.

    This. It obviously depends on the individual, but most people I have talked to who have started using dps meters, used them to self improve, not stress themselves.

    I will add 1 thing though:
    DPS meters are a very hard reality check on personal performance both as far as individual encounters as well as overall. It is fully understandable if some players don't want their bubble burst as to how effective they actually are. Which would be: not very effective for most players who have never taken time to critically self evaluate their performance. Lucky enough, this is not necessary in vast majority of this games content.

  • Shikaru.7618Shikaru.7618 Member ✭✭✭

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Taygus.4571 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @DoRi Silvia.4159 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @DoRi Silvia.4159 said:
    I'm so glad the boneskinner is the way it is. Every other strike is kitten easy brain dead content with no punishing mechanics u can face roll all the apes and auto strike to win .....

    No. Alot of players are too used to playing content they are guaranteed to win.
    Strikes was designed at the intention of making a bridge for players to get into raiding and the skinner would be the closest boss to raids out of the lot. Anet definitely should keep this up with the difficulty so players get a good understanding of what raids can be like and the importance of BUILDS, MECHANICS AND RES'ING

    The issue i see, is thats not what happens. ive done a decent number of raids, and i dont even do the boneskinner SM. most of the casual population -stops- if they cant win a fight by just pressing 1, and if ANET wants players to make the bridge from SM's to raids i see it failing before to long, none of my friends who play who do raids do SMS either so im left to PUG, and thats just...no.

    Yes yes it's very similar to what I was explaining
    Most of the casuals auto attack to win and quit if they cant win that way

    But people need to realise how are they going to get to raid standard performance if they dont practice in advance.. I think the bone skinner was a really good intro to raids as it has multiple mechanics where it can wipe out the group just like raids.. it shows that you need to DODGE mechanics and actually use skills instead of just face tanking all mechanics and just 111111

    Way I see it Anet has done a good job with strikes and as it progresses and becomes more difficult people who are interested can keep getting better at mechanics and hopefully it will spark a interest to raiding.

    Ps, I've been doing skinner on pug daily this whole week and have always atleast landed a silver reward.. I think it's just the time of the day and maybe joining a exp group if you are gonna pug skinner

    People arent going to keep playing, thats my point. When the strike missions get to hard to complete with more than a bronze reward players will stop(seriously get rid of the timer, its the opposite of fun if you are doing a training run and it takes longer but you still finish it to get none of the rewards, i unno who thought that would be a good idea, but i dont think it is.)

    The vast majority of players -dont care to learn the mechanics, they want to play an easy game- And if anet wants to keep going down the strike mission path they need to keep that in mind, i cant see Sms being popular for long if they keep them on the same level as the Boneskinner one.

    If you thought threads complaining about story missions where hard, id standby for the SMs complaints and then nerfs because the majority of the community isnt able to complete them.

    For the most part, players who do raids and the vast majority who just do PVE are on entirely different levels and play styles, and that always needs to be remembered by the devs. They know the shockingly large DPS variations between player skill levels, and its only gotten larger as the game has gotten older.

    PS, I dont do SMs anymore. I did them once got the achievements and stopped, they just arent fun. Grothmar is really easy, two of the three Bjora marches are annoying AF not even hard, just annoying(Boneskinner and the Twins), and the third one was just to easy, add to that, again the lack of rewards. SMS give -nothing-, especially if you dont get higher than bronze. Why would i waste my time? They dont have unique armor(bought all the grothmaw ones from the TP cause the drop rate is trash in this game) or weapons tied to them that can only be gotten from the end chests, so ill go do something else.

    They're not fun because the rewards aren't worth the effort.

    Removing the timer won't change that.

    Strikes beed their own currency where you can buy stat selectable exotic armor. Helpful, without taking from raids.

    I agree, Strikes need a (better) reward system, maybe something like a the Dungeon Token system with different amounts of Tokens earned depending on the difficulty of the strike.
    These Tokens could then ideally be redeemed for some preliminary gear and cosmetics.
    The problem with removing the time limit would be, since some of the Strikes are already so incredibly easy, that you could just walk in there with a Thief with Invigorating Precision, activate auto attack and then tab out and go afk and come back in a few minutes to collect your loot (at least with Icebrood Construct).
    Right now, people at least need to go through the effort to multi box to afk do Strikes, not that any of that is worth to do with the current lack of rewards, but still.

    @Shikaru.7618 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Shikaru.7618 said:
    I think in theory this works if all players have a growth mindset. Because progression in this game is largely skill gates and not gear gates, it's pretty difficult for the casual to see progression. They just know that they're wiping but other than boss %, it's hard to tell if one wipe is improvement from another wipe. Also getting a boss to 50% one run then dying the next run at 70%, does that mean backwards progress for the individual has been made? What I observe is that the casual player sees a plateau in skill progression because they are allowed to opt out when something gets too hard, and no guidance is given by the game on how to overcome their current skill gate.

    Maybe a solution would be for Arenanet to mark the harder pieces of content as such. Say "Strike Mission 1: Easy", "Strike Mission 2: Challenging", "Strike Mission 3: Average" and so on. Similar system could work on most other types of content too like dungeons and Raids, because not everyone reads forums or reddit or other websites to figure out that one Strike Mission can be harder than another one. The guidance to overcome a skill gate already exists, it's called participation medals, if you barely get Bronze in an easy Strike Mission don't expect to get Bronze in the hardest one. Getting higher tiers of medals means getting better at playing the game, which would eventually lead to success in the more challenging missions. They could use the participation system as guidance and add labels to further guide players through their training.

    Errrr..ive gotten bronze because the rest of my group didnt do enough DPS on some of them, should i have stayed at the same SM level? No, that idea is flawed heavily. There is no guidance in game that will show a player(individually) is getting better unless they use third party tools. Also Shikaru is right, your mindset and anets mindset only works for a probably small portion of the playerbase, and i have no clue if that portion is big enough to re energize raids.

    If you know you did good dps, but the rest of the group was the problem, then you already know you can move on to the next SM level. But a player that cannot possibly know/understand if their dps is good enough or not, the medals are an average indicator. And I'm sure the majority of the playerbase doesn't know how terrible they are at playing the game. If they knew then they wouldn't have an issue adapting to higher difficulty content.

    Oh i agree, they dont know thats the problem at large but the really vocal community doesnt want any in game way to tell either and its a shame. I was really against DPS meters until i started raiding and knowing my numbers for sure helped...went from doing 9k dps(condi) to 15k on average. Without the tools in game though, its not gonna get better.

    Which is interesting because its -not- hard to do better IG, you dont even have to know your class!

    This is where the folks who "play games to relax" come from. Performance tracking causes stress because who wants to be told that their damage output has an F rating? I'd imagine it's the equivalent of lounging on the beach and someone telling you, you're fat. They're not wrong, but who wants that kind of stress? I'd imagine a lot of casual folks want to hop in, kill a quick boss, feel like they contributed (either actually or dellusionally) and hop out. Once players are faced with the reality that they're "not good enough" very few will actually climb the skill ladder to be good enough but instead just say screw it, I'm out.

    Humans were not built to be humble, especially not when it comes to entertainment.

    I honestly think you have a false perception of DPS Meter's. Once you use them yourself, unless you actively stress yourself for some reason about it, they are not a source of stress but of motivation. It just depends on how you use the tool.

    It's just something you can look at at occasions and notice interesting things for self-improvement. Like you might always frantically press all your buttons on cooldown, but while playing with a DPS meter instead you might notice when you leave some skills out entirely (and finish an AA chain instead) your DPS actually goes up, as the skills cast time/animation is too long in relation to the damage it does, when compared to just AA'ing. Then you might notice that's the case because it's a Utility/CC skill, making you more aware of keeping and using it at the proper moments to contribute to CC bars. Or making you more aware of burst windows, like DH's spear of justice, and how much your damage increases when you combo Traps, Symbols and other high damage skills into that window, instead of using them randomly.
    Similarly you might start to experiment with Traits and notice how massively some can improve your performance over others you might have thought were good or comparable.

    DPS's meters never added stress for me, rather they open up the game to a whole new level of exploration of gameplay, proving to be invaluable for self-improvement in a positive way.

    Rather than someone yelling at you on the beach telling you are are fat, think in terms of talking a walk with an app that tells you "good job, you walked X steps today", giving you positive reinforcement that inspires you to keep pushing for more, leading you to improvement and with that a feeling of accomplishment.

    Sure, without DPS Meter you never really know when you performed poorly, but conversely you also never really realise when and how you improved, which can motivate greatly to reach for further improvement for your own sake.

    As a hardcore raider I'm fine with dps meters because I have the self awareness to know theres always room for improvement and I want to know where those opportunities are. Not everyone is this self aware or wants to analyze their gameplay. The attitudes I described are the people that honestly dont care. They dont want to know. Not everyone finds enjoyment in parsing their logs to see where they mightve cancelled an auto chain. They just want to hit buttons and feel like they're contributing. To those people, being told by either a tool or other players you're not doing good damage is synonymous with youre not welcome here.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    DPS's meters never added stress for me, rather they open up the game to a whole new level of exploration of gameplay, proving to be invaluable for self-improvement in a positive way.

    This. It obviously depends on the individual, but most people I have talked to who have started using dps meters, used them to self improve, not stress themselves.

    It is both. Yes, it can motivate you to improve, but usually at some point that improvement stops and you generally simply won't be able to get any better. Depending on how that relates to performance of other people, it can be satisfying or very, very frustrating.

    I will add 1 thing though:
    DPS meters are a very hard reality check on personal performance both as far as individual encounters as well as overall. It is fully understandable if some players don't want their bubble burst as to how effective they actually are. Which would be: not very effective for most players who have never taken time to critically self evaluate their performance. Lucky enough, this is not necessary in vast majority of this games content.

    The hardest part of that reality check is that, in any group, (so, not only overall, but also among players that are consciously and actively trying to improve), half of the people will (by definition) be below average.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 20, 2020

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    DPS's meters never added stress for me, rather they open up the game to a whole new level of exploration of gameplay, proving to be invaluable for self-improvement in a positive way.

    This. It obviously depends on the individual, but most people I have talked to who have started using dps meters, used them to self improve, not stress themselves.

    It is both. Yes, it can motivate you to improve, but usually at some point that improvement stops and you generally simply won't be able to get any better. Depending on how that relates to performance of other people, it can be satisfying or very, very frustrating.

    Well yes, obviously even worse for people with disabilities, or age, or any natural reasons which might prevent someone from being able to perform at a high level. It is up to each individual how far they are willing to improve and what their goals are.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I will add 1 thing though:
    DPS meters are a very hard reality check on personal performance both as far as individual encounters as well as overall. It is fully understandable if some players don't want their bubble burst as to how effective they actually are. Which would be: not very effective for most players who have never taken time to critically self evaluate their performance. Lucky enough, this is not necessary in vast majority of this games content.

    The hardest part of that reality check is that, in any group, (so, not only overall, but also among players that are consciously and actively trying to improve), half of the people will (by definition) be below average.

    Well yes and no, you might have alternating "best" dps depending on boss. You have benchmarks you can aim for. Obviously you will always have a ranking in performance based on each individual fight, but performance can also be viewed over an extended period of time or multiple encounters. Especially players who aim to improve can see great leaps in their performance when using dps meters.

    Also it has already been established that actual required performance to succeed in challenging content is not that high compared to what is possible (since people love to bring up Snowcrows or Lucky Noobs numbers). There is no issue with players who enjoy open world content and wish to stick to that content. There is no issue with players who want to transition to more challenging content and are struggling, there are ways to circumvent many of the challenges (easier classes, easier roles, more casual raids groups, etc.). The main issues arise, in nearly any game mode btw, when players overestimate their own performance and ability and are unwilling to actually improve to the necessary level the content requires.

  • are u enjoing the new strike raid?=D have u getted the goldy gold? seeing how his the last strike how a pug can learn and do or enjoy it?

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    DPS's meters never added stress for me, rather they open up the game to a whole new level of exploration of gameplay, proving to be invaluable for self-improvement in a positive way.

    This. It obviously depends on the individual, but most people I have talked to who have started using dps meters, used them to self improve, not stress themselves.

    It is both. Yes, it can motivate you to improve, but usually at some point that improvement stops and you generally simply won't be able to get any better. Depending on how that relates to performance of other people, it can be satisfying or very, very frustrating.

    I will add 1 thing though:
    DPS meters are a very hard reality check on personal performance both as far as individual encounters as well as overall. It is fully understandable if some players don't want their bubble burst as to how effective they actually are. Which would be: not very effective for most players who have never taken time to critically self evaluate their performance. Lucky enough, this is not necessary in vast majority of this games content.

    The hardest part of that reality check is that, in any group, (so, not only overall, but also among players that are consciously and actively trying to improve), half of the people will (by definition) be below average.

    Small nitpick but it's 50 percent is below the median, not the average

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2020

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    DPS's meters never added stress for me, rather they open up the game to a whole new level of exploration of gameplay, proving to be invaluable for self-improvement in a positive way.

    This. It obviously depends on the individual, but most people I have talked to who have started using dps meters, used them to self improve, not stress themselves.

    It is both. Yes, it can motivate you to improve, but usually at some point that improvement stops and you generally simply won't be able to get any better. Depending on how that relates to performance of other people, it can be satisfying or very, very frustrating.

    I will add 1 thing though:
    DPS meters are a very hard reality check on personal performance both as far as individual encounters as well as overall. It is fully understandable if some players don't want their bubble burst as to how effective they actually are. Which would be: not very effective for most players who have never taken time to critically self evaluate their performance. Lucky enough, this is not necessary in vast majority of this games content.

    The hardest part of that reality check is that, in any group, (so, not only overall, but also among players that are consciously and actively trying to improve), half of the people will (by definition) be below average.

    Small nitpick but it's 50 percent is below the median, not the average

    You do have a point, but it's probably mostly gaussian distribution anyway, so it should be generally correct for both.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    DPS's meters never added stress for me, rather they open up the game to a whole new level of exploration of gameplay, proving to be invaluable for self-improvement in a positive way.

    This. It obviously depends on the individual, but most people I have talked to who have started using dps meters, used them to self improve, not stress themselves.

    It is both. Yes, it can motivate you to improve, but usually at some point that improvement stops and you generally simply won't be able to get any better. Depending on how that relates to performance of other people, it can be satisfying or very, very frustrating.

    I will add 1 thing though:
    DPS meters are a very hard reality check on personal performance both as far as individual encounters as well as overall. It is fully understandable if some players don't want their bubble burst as to how effective they actually are. Which would be: not very effective for most players who have never taken time to critically self evaluate their performance. Lucky enough, this is not necessary in vast majority of this games content.

    The hardest part of that reality check is that, in any group, (so, not only overall, but also among players that are consciously and actively trying to improve), half of the people will (by definition) be below average.

    Small nitpick but it's 50 percent is below the median, not the average

    You do have a point, but it's probably mostly gaussian distribution anyway, so it should be generally correct for both.

    Probably, but it still annoys me that people say this 50 perc is below average thing while its not true and they mostly mean median. :)

  • Zok.4956Zok.4956 Member ✭✭✭

    @xDudisx.5914 said:

    @DirtyDan.4759 said:

    @LordMorgul.9845 said:
    also most raids fails for the time pressure and not for the mechs

    This is so wrong. Raids fail almost exclusively because of mechanics. Why do people wipe at VG? Because of the explosion from not doing greens while failing overheal.

    There is no fight in this game that when mechanically excecuted perfectly fails to the timer because even then you can continue, as shown in a 10 heal tempest vg kill.

    If there were no timer we would see people running entire groups of bunker builds to slowly kill all bosses that have no one shot mechanic. The timer is part of the reason people wipe again and again. If you remove timer there would be people running full minstrel gear, ignoring all mechanics and killing VG face tanking.

    Back in the days when my raid group and I were training VG, we wiped the first weeks/months always before the enrage timer because of mechanics. And after we could execute the mechanics better, we wiped because we ran into the enrage timer and our first kill was only a few seconds into the enrage timer. After that, when we wiped again in the following VG fights, it was mostly because of the enrage timer. And when we killed VG successfully it was almost always before the enrage-timer hit us.

    So, people wipe at VG because of the mechanics AND (later) because of the enrage timer.

    Now, VG is an easy walk in the park for our raid group and we even did it some times low-manned and probably we could (if we want to) outheal the enrage-damage and also the explosions.

    So, please take in mind in your discussion, that for example VG is now totally easy for you (and me). But for beginners it still is not. And outhealing the enrage-damage is surely nothing, a beginner/training group could do. And the longer a fight takes, the longer the time that players could fail because of mechanics.

    And "people running full minstrel gear, ignoring all mechanics and killing VG face tanking" still have to be experienced players. This will not be possible (even without the enrage-timer) for beginners.

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