Hammer, Mace/Shield class? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Hammer, Mace/Shield class?

So, I'm almost done crafting Flameseeker and the Juggernaut, and as I have a free character slot I want to put them on one character. I have plenty of alts in various Meta etc builds, so not worried about that. What I want is a class that I can use Hammer, shield and preferably mace on in all modes (will change traits and armor, but want to keep the same weapon combo).

So my options are: Herald, any Warrior spec, and Guardian Spec.

Which would be the best option, and if possible, why/how for general pve, wvw fun, and unranked pvp (or who knows, maybe ranked!)

Comments

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 25, 2020

    Well, I'll put it simply: All three of those classes play that combination completely differently.

    Revenant Mace, Shield, Hammer are mostly DPS weapons, except the Shield, and are viable in all game modes and even in raids, but you'll be glassy with them and rely entirely on the (limited) block and control functionality in order to survive.
    Warrior Mace, Shield, Hammer are all control and survival weapons, and not viable in most of PvE, but will excel in PvP/WvW.
    Guardian Mace, Shield, Hammer are all support weapons, with the Hammer being the most DPSy of them and also having some control functionality and is viable in open-world PvE, dungeons, Fractals, PvP and WvW but not raids.

    So it comes down to the classic question: Do you want to be DPS, tank, or support?

    Of course, I'll have to throw out my personal opinion that playing this combination on the Guardian is the most viable for "anything", especially if you go with a Firebrand, as most of their "party favor" comes from spell tomes and utility skills, and if you wear Crusader+Zealot's, you can take some healing and tanking stats while still doing alot of damage, usually enough to pass DPS checks.

    Or alternatively Boon Duration builds, which are viable on both Firebrand and Herald, since Herald has a trait that still gives out boons from Glint stance after the skills are activated meaning you only have to stay in it for about 5sec.

    Hannah | Daisuki[SUKI] Founder, Ehmry Bay (formerly Jade Quarry) | Mains Mariyuuna/Tempest & Terakura/Spellbreaker | ♀♥♀

  • @Hannelore.8153 said:
    Well, I'll put it simply: All three of those classes play that combination completely differently.

    Revenant Mace, Shield, Hammer are mostly DPS weapons, except the Shield, and are viable in all game modes and even in raids, but you'll be glassy with them and rely entirely on the (limited) block and control functionality in order to survive.
    Warrior Mace, Shield, Hammer are all control and survival weapons, and not viable in most of PvE, but will excel in PvP/WvW.
    Guardian Mace, Shield, Hammer are all support weapons, with the Hammer being the most DPSy of them and also having some control functionality and is viable in open-world PvE, dungeons, Fractals, PvP and WvW but not raids.

    So it comes down to the classic question: Do you want to be DPS, tank, or support?

    Of course, I'll have to throw out my personal opinion that playing this combination on the Guardian is the most viable for "anything", especially if you go with a Firebrand, as most of their "party favor" comes from spell tomes and utility skills, and if you wear Crusader+Zealot's, you can take some healing and tanking stats while still doing alot of damage, usually enough to pass DPS checks.

    Or alternatively Boon Duration builds, which are viable on both Firebrand and Herald, since Herald has a trait that still gives out boons from Glint stance after the skills are activated meaning you only have to stay in it for about 5sec.

    I'll admit, I kind of figured Herald would be a write off, mostly withnmace beingncondi, shiels support and hammer power. So interesting to hear that may not be the case.

    I'm very interested in your Guardian thoughts, as though I know mace and shield is very supportive, I have no experience with hammer on Guardian, so would be worried if it could do enough solo in pve.

    Interestingly, it's probably the more competitive modes that i think all three would work nicely in, due to CC/support in a team environment, making pve the hardest to nail down (as easy as pve CAN be)

    To answer your question, I guess I don't mind if they are more tanky/support, as long as they can do the damage to get through PvE without taking forever Haha (ignoring raids and probably high tier fractals)

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 25, 2020

    @Thorstienn.1642 said:

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    Well, I'll put it simply: All three of those classes play that combination completely differently.

    Revenant Mace, Shield, Hammer are mostly DPS weapons, except the Shield, and are viable in all game modes and even in raids, but you'll be glassy with them and rely entirely on the (limited) block and control functionality in order to survive.
    Warrior Mace, Shield, Hammer are all control and survival weapons, and not viable in most of PvE, but will excel in PvP/WvW.
    Guardian Mace, Shield, Hammer are all support weapons, with the Hammer being the most DPSy of them and also having some control functionality and is viable in open-world PvE, dungeons, Fractals, PvP and WvW but not raids.

    So it comes down to the classic question: Do you want to be DPS, tank, or support?

    Of course, I'll have to throw out my personal opinion that playing this combination on the Guardian is the most viable for "anything", especially if you go with a Firebrand, as most of their "party favor" comes from spell tomes and utility skills, and if you wear Crusader+Zealot's, you can take some healing and tanking stats while still doing alot of damage, usually enough to pass DPS checks.

    Or alternatively Boon Duration builds, which are viable on both Firebrand and Herald, since Herald has a trait that still gives out boons from Glint stance after the skills are activated meaning you only have to stay in it for about 5sec.

    I'll admit, I kind of figured Herald would be a write off, mostly withnmace beingncondi, shiels support and hammer power. So interesting to hear that may not be the case.

    I'm very interested in your Guardian thoughts, as though I know mace and shield is very supportive, I have no experience with hammer on Guardian, so would be worried if it could do enough solo in pve.

    Interestingly, it's probably the more competitive modes that i think all three would work nicely in, due to CC/support in a team environment, making pve the hardest to nail down (as easy as pve CAN be)

    To answer your question, I guess I don't mind if they are more tanky/support, as long as they can do the damage to get through PvE without taking forever Haha (ignoring raids and probably high tier fractals)

    1. Condi and Power mixes are viable with many sets, like Viper, Grieving, Marshal's (support). Almost all stats that work with hybrid builds are glass so you may want to mix in some tanky and/or supportive trinkets, Celestial's often works well with anything.

    2. Mace and Shield on Guardian stack heavy boons like Protection and Aegis, and work best with matching Shouts, etc. and the traits that heals yourself or allies when these boons are applied like Communal Defenses. Hammer pulses a Symbol of Protection on auto attacks, and goes well with Symbol traits, but otherwise provides high-ish damage, finishers, and both soft and hard CC.

    3. Yes, they all work in competitive modes, but anything will work in PvE if you refine it enough. For example, even though Warrior isn't meta with those weapons, their survival and utility does mean they can take full glass gear and builds with little effort.

    4. Its worth nothing that higher tier Fractals is pretty much where you'll be /expected/ to run support if Guardian, etc. In comparison lower tier Fractals will only want someone to be a pure DPS since the support isn't needed.

    EDIT: For general PvE I would run something like this, FB Hammer burn build with generous access to Quickness and okay healing:
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PWwAIl7lRweYTsKGJW0WdPdA-zRRYVB7mU/KlEKg6SgEDhUjAbmFeW2A-e

    Remember, FB has increased stats while under Quickness boon - ~2.8k armor, 1k condi and ~1.2k healing here.

    Hannah | Daisuki[SUKI] Founder, Ehmry Bay (formerly Jade Quarry) | Mains Mariyuuna/Tempest & Terakura/Spellbreaker | ♀♥♀

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thorstienn.1642 said:
    So, I'm almost done crafting Flameseeker and the Juggernaut, and as I have a free character slot I want to put them on one character. I have plenty of alts in various Meta etc builds, so not worried about that. What I want is a class that I can use Hammer, shield and preferably mace on in all modes (will change traits and armor, but want to keep the same weapon combo).

    So my options are: Herald, any Warrior spec, and Guardian Spec.

    Which would be the best option, and if possible, why/how for general pve, wvw fun, and unranked pvp (or who knows, maybe ranked!)

    Sticking to your weapons selection:
    Condi rev uses mace as its MH weapon in PvE. Guardian can make it work, but it is weak damage. Warrior, hammer and mace deal pathetic damage.

    SPvP guardian for sure. Mace is decent weapon in PvP. Hammer, not so much. Shield very powerful for guardian. Meta in FB builds. Rev, shield is not bad. Mace is meh. Hammer is no way. Warrior, mace is unusable. Hammer, I think it is very weak. Shield is meta.

    WvW, not my area. I know rev Zerg backliner uses hammer. Warrior uses hammer in zergs too. Guardian surely uses shield. Dunno about the rest.

  • @Hannelore.8153 that build looks alright, so kinda getting the damage from the tomes and more support/utility from the weapons.

    @otto.5684 I mean mace isn't set in stone.
    I think going sword would make Herald pointless as it would just be close to my meta builds already, with just an offhand change.
    Axe mainhand on warrior would probably yield the best damage, with then cc utility from hammer and shield.
    Guardian seems like the problem is actually the hammer? So maybe that would be out too?

    Sadly I feel like they are all weapons that could use a bit more of an update (though individually decent on Revenants), I just really love both the idea of them together, a d of course those legendaries.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thorstienn.1642 said:
    @Hannelore.8153 that build looks alright, so kinda getting the damage from the tomes and more support/utility from the weapons.

    @otto.5684 I mean mace isn't set in stone.
    I think going sword would make Herald pointless as it would just be close to my meta builds already, with just an offhand change.
    Axe mainhand on warrior would probably yield the best damage, with then cc utility from hammer and shield.
    Guardian seems like the problem is actually the hammer? So maybe that would be out too?

    Sadly I feel like they are all weapons that could use a bit more of an update (though individually decent on Revenants), I just really love both the idea of them together, a d of course those legendaries.

    For rev, condi rev going herald mace and axe is solid. It does less damage than renegade, but pretty good damage wise.

    hammer in PvE is pretty dead. Best hammer build in PvE is scrapper. Guardian is slow and damage is meh. Rev hammer is okay ranged weapon. But cannot provide good sustained damage. Warrior hammer is terrible in PvE.

    Honestly, if hammer is your thing, scrapper is your best option, both PvE and PvP. If you will stick to heavy armor classes, sadly, there is not much use for it.

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 25, 2020

    @Thorstienn.1642 said:
    @Hannelore.8153 that build looks alright, so kinda getting the damage from the tomes and more support/utility from the weapons.

    @otto.5684 I mean mace isn't set in stone.
    I think going sword would make Herald pointless as it would just be close to my meta builds already, with just an offhand change.
    Axe mainhand on warrior would probably yield the best damage, with then cc utility from hammer and shield.
    Guardian seems like the problem is actually the hammer? So maybe that would be out too?

    Sadly I feel like they are all weapons that could use a bit more of an update (though individually decent on Revenants), I just really love both the idea of them together, a d of course those legendaries.

    Well kind of, it also has passive burns in the 3-4k range just from attacking, using the Justice tome for burst doesn't interrupt them.

    Hannah | Daisuki[SUKI] Founder, Ehmry Bay (formerly Jade Quarry) | Mains Mariyuuna/Tempest & Terakura/Spellbreaker | ♀♥♀

  • ZeftheWicked.3076ZeftheWicked.3076 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I play rev, so i'll speak on rev side of things:

    Hammer + mace shield combo screams bunker rev. Hammer and mace don't have too good synergy - hammer is a defensive power weapon, mace is a condi weapon. Shield is utility + defense so doesn't matter.

    That being said this can work in WvW. Mace + shield condi bunker herald can be tough as nails in melee while doing solid damage as long as you build for it (corruption spec + runes of tormenting). Hammer can provide the range for zerg combat (well more like for tagging if you have no power), but does provide the anti-projectile wall that moves with you, and can shield allies as well if you bunch up in one spot. As are the 100% leeching bolts with hammer auto through said wall.

    What you'd have is a condi roamer that can do fine vs camps, while in larger groups or when enemy has the advantage would attempt to just tag stuff with hammer and shield allies from projectile abuse while retreating.

  • RedShark.9548RedShark.9548 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 26, 2020

    @ZeftheWicked.3076 said:
    I play rev, so i'll speak on rev side of things:

    Hammer + mace shield combo screams bunker rev. Hammer and mace don't have too good synergy - hammer is a defensive power weapon, mace is a condi weapon. Shield is utility + defense so doesn't matter.

    That being said this can work in WvW. Mace + shield condi bunker herald can be tough as nails in melee while doing solid damage as long as you build for it (corruption spec + runes of tormenting). Hammer can provide the range for zerg combat (well more like for tagging if you have no power), but does provide the anti-projectile wall that moves with you, and can shield allies as well if you bunch up in one spot. As are the 100% leeching bolts with hammer auto through said wall.

    What you'd have is a condi roamer that can do fine vs camps, while in larger groups or when enemy has the advantage would attempt to just tag stuff with hammer and shield allies from projectile abuse while retreating.

    Just because hammer is ranged doesnt mean its a defensive weapon lol.
    In zergs for powerrevs its the main damage /burst source. Phase smash and drop the hammer easily hitting squishy targets for 10k+ on relatively low cds.
    And if CoR wasnt so buggy it would be up there too.

    Mace is more of a condi weapon and doesnt rly synergize well with hammer.

    For warrior its meh, too, the only mode id see this set work would be pvp. Wvw roaming its too slow, no mobility, and in zergs mace and shield are pretty much useless. Pve, well open world anything works pretty much, but fracs and raids? To break breakbars, but sad dps.

    Id say the best use you can get out of those weapon combos would be guard. Mace/shield is meta in wvw zergs anyways, usually with staff, but i guess hammer could work too, no empower tho :^)

    With dmg gear you can probably also use that for open world pve and low level fractals, guess for raids it would be harder to find a group that wants offmeta stuff.
    And in pvp, well, a bunker specc would probably work, maybe symbols? With hammer having those in the auto chain, not enough pvp guard experience tho.

  • @RedShark.9548 yeah I think Rev is off the table as the weapon synergy just isn't there.
    I can see your thoughts on Warrior. I used to run this setup in pvp (long long time ago)and was gimmicky yet ok, but I think your probably right about it being too low in pve and I hadn't even thought of the mobility issue in WvW.
    I think I'll give Guardian ago. I like your thought of going the symbol route. Spec choice is interesting: core might be best, DH would mostly give traps for additional DPS, FB I would "think" would be best, but the survival tomes are probably covered by the weapons, leaving just Justice which is more condi. Will need to experiment, but at least have the class down I think.

  • ArthurDent.9538ArthurDent.9538 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 27, 2020

    Hammer + mace shield is quite possibly the most useless weapon combination you can possibly put on revenant only rivaled by hammer + mace sword and hammer + shortbow.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I use mace/shield + hammer on my zealot guardian in open world. It's fun, but slow going. But that's the set up I specifically wanted for that toon. Does a lot of healing, boons etc. Fine for small open world groups

    My main is a Warrior who uses mace/shield and it's a great playstyle. I's not a dps set up for me, but I prefer the tanky, interrupt style of play he brings to the table. I occasionally use hammer as a second weapon, but not consistently

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • @Randulf.7614 said:
    I use mace/shield + hammer on my zealot guardian in open world. It's fun, but slow going. But that's the set up I specifically wanted for that toon. Does a lot of healing, boons etc. Fine for small open world groups

    My main is a Warrior who uses mace/shield and it's a great playstyle. I's not a dps set up for me, but I prefer the tanky, interrupt style of play he brings to the table. I occasionally use hammer as a second weapon, but not consistently

    I would be very interested in your builds. As mentioned it's more for theme than being meta, but of course still want it to work.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 26, 2020

    @Thorstienn.1642 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    I use mace/shield + hammer on my zealot guardian in open world. It's fun, but slow going. But that's the set up I specifically wanted for that toon. Does a lot of healing, boons etc. Fine for small open world groups

    My main is a Warrior who uses mace/shield and it's a great playstyle. I's not a dps set up for me, but I prefer the tanky, interrupt style of play he brings to the table. I occasionally use hammer as a second weapon, but not consistently

    I would be very interested in your builds. As mentioned it's more for theme than being meta, but of course still want it to work.

    Not sure if these link well, but here you go.

    Three caveats:
    1) They are designed for a style of play specially for me
    2) They are not meant to be optimum, but build around a style and flavour.
    3) Even If am not optimum, I looking amazing

    Guardian (Zealots/Cruader/Mix gear)
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PWxAIl7lVw+YZMM2JeKT5LFA-zRpYPBVIEEUXUT5J6FESYIDnRPqgEFCWcA-e

    Warrior (Soldiers gear)
    http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?PKzAk6RlZwwYjMQGJO6OpPVA-zxYYhICERBvOSgxoYBUJB8MA-e

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Edited in links

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Buran.3796Buran.3796 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Mace + Shield/Hammer Warrior does lower damage than could be expected due those are weapons of control and can stack stuns and hard cc like a crazy, so ANet nerfed the damage to prevent one shooting targets wit a brief stun chain. As a result, the damage in PvE is also a bit limited. Is not like doesn't work, but the gap in damage compared to other Warrior builds is large.

    Mace + Axe/Shield condi Herald is probably the strongets PvE build in the game, able to solo unthinkable content, but the hammer is a ballast there, because does low damage and is a physical weapon.

    Guardian can work well albeit Mace + Shield is stronger than the Hammer, which is a fine utility tool but too slow; most of Guardians wielding amces and shileds which like to pair them with a greatsword, a sword + focus, scepter + torch, etc.

    The only class with a strong hammer is currently the Scrapper.

  • @Randulf.7614 said:

    @Thorstienn.1642 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    I use mace/shield + hammer on my zealot guardian in open world. It's fun, but slow going. But that's the set up I specifically wanted for that toon. Does a lot of healing, boons etc. Fine for small open world groups

    My main is a Warrior who uses mace/shield and it's a great playstyle. I's not a dps set up for me, but I prefer the tanky, interrupt style of play he brings to the table. I occasionally use hammer as a second weapon, but not consistently

    I would be very interested in your builds. As mentioned it's more for theme than being meta, but of course still want it to work.

    Not sure if these link well, but here you go.

    Three caveats:
    1) They are designed for a style of play specially for me
    2) They are not meant to be optimum, but build around a style and flavour.
    3) Even If am not optimum, I looking amazing

    Guardian (Zealots/Cruader/Mix gear)
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PWxAIl7lVw+YZMM2JeKT5LFA-zRpYPBVIEEUXUT5J6FESYIDnRPqgEFCWcA-e

    Warrior (Soldiers gear)
    http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?PKzAk6RlZwwYjMQGJO6OpPVA-zxYYhICERBvOSgxoYBUJB8MA-e

    Nice thanks. I'll give then a try with a lvl 80 booster in SW (obviously do t have the proper guardian gear).
    I like your theme for the warrior, I'd prob in future adjust it myself with more assassins/zerkers gear if it feels good.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 27, 2020

    @Thorstienn.1642 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:

    @Thorstienn.1642 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    I use mace/shield + hammer on my zealot guardian in open world. It's fun, but slow going. But that's the set up I specifically wanted for that toon. Does a lot of healing, boons etc. Fine for small open world groups

    My main is a Warrior who uses mace/shield and it's a great playstyle. I's not a dps set up for me, but I prefer the tanky, interrupt style of play he brings to the table. I occasionally use hammer as a second weapon, but not consistently

    I would be very interested in your builds. As mentioned it's more for theme than being meta, but of course still want it to work.

    Not sure if these link well, but here you go.

    Three caveats:
    1) They are designed for a style of play specially for me
    2) They are not meant to be optimum, but build around a style and flavour.
    3) Even If am not optimum, I looking amazing

    Guardian (Zealots/Cruader/Mix gear)
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PWxAIl7lVw+YZMM2JeKT5LFA-zRpYPBVIEEUXUT5J6FESYIDnRPqgEFCWcA-e

    Warrior (Soldiers gear)
    http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?PKzAk6RlZwwYjMQGJO6OpPVA-zxYYhICERBvOSgxoYBUJB8MA-e

    Nice thanks. I'll give then a try with a lvl 80 booster in SW (obviously do t have the proper guardian gear).
    I like your theme for the warrior, I'd prob in future adjust it myself with more assassins/zerkers gear if it feels good.

    My version is very low dps, so I would def advise not using my exact set up. But I've learned and adapted round the weaknesses in the build after playig it so much that I am very happy where it is at, switching up the utilities depending on the situation. But I am not under any illusions about its lack of optimisation. I've thought of changing it to zerkers myself, but but the feel is so perfectly weighted for me, I just leave it as is.

    Maybe now we have build templates mind you I'll experiment more

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • LadyKitty.6120LadyKitty.6120 Member ✭✭✭

    For raids and fractals, hammer/mace+shield works for heal firebrand. It also kinda works for some extra might from mace as heal/boon herald (and hammer with Sigil of Strength works for kiter jobs to trigger Shared Empowerment to share might). But for any dps roles, that exact weapon combo doesn't work due to all 3 being defensive/CC weapons by nature (except rev mace being condi).
    However, hammer alone works decently on power scrapper (if you master it) and power dragonhunter. Kitty's got some raid vids on both. Mace+torch also works semi-decently with condi firebrand, though 20-25% weaker than meta but those blocks are nice in fractals.
    However, mace and hammer are extremely weak dps on warrior in PVE, to the point of being being some of outright weakest weapons in the whole game (and warr in general has horribly balanced weapons dps-wise). Hammer on rev is also really weak dps-wise to the point that using shortbow as ranged option is a lot more dps.

    It's Kitty. The young lady who streams and records videos playing various (non-)metabuilds. Raid/fractal videos at youtube.com/LadyKitty, Kittymarks test results at youtube.com/Kittymarks and tinyurl.com/Kittymarks and streams at twitch.tv/ladykittygw2 .

  • @LadyKitty.6120 said:
    For raids and fractals, hammer/mace+shield works for heal firebrand. It also kinda works for some extra might from mace as heal/boon herald (and hammer with Sigil of Strength works for kiter jobs to trigger Shared Empowerment to share might). But for any dps roles, that exact weapon combo doesn't work due to all 3 being defensive/CC weapons by nature (except rev mace being condi).
    However, hammer alone works decently on power scrapper (if you master it) and power dragonhunter. Kitty's got some raid vids on both. Mace+torch also works semi-decently with condi firebrand, though 20-25% weaker than meta but those blocks are nice in fractals.
    However, mace and hammer are extremely weak dps on warrior in PVE, to the point of being being some of outright weakest weapons in the whole game (and warr in general has horribly balanced weapons dps-wise). Hammer on rev is also really weak dps-wise to the point that using shortbow as ranged option is a lot more dps.

    I have been messing around with them. It's a shame Warriors damage scaling is so bad, as the weapons "feel" the best on it. Guardian feels fine for mace and shield, but oh wow does hammer feel slow and lackluster. I do like scrapper hammer, actually have 1 already. I have a condi rev, with mace and bow, and a power rev: agree the hanner is not super awesome outside of tagging and backline wvw, also has the problem that its magical ranged so doesn't really "feel" like a hammer.

    I'll give your Visa a watch, maybe see the guard hammer in action and get a better opinion of it.

    Just a shame, as I really like the idea behind the combos, oh well, OW is always fine.