What would happen to Weaver if....

[mortrialus.3062]

@RedShark.9548 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:

@"Megametzler.5729" said:Why is Fire Weaver a problem anyway?Compared to Mirage:It evades less than Mirage.

Meta fire Weaver way outpaces meta Condi mirage right now in evade uptime.

1 single block and one 0.5 second evade (Which similar to Full Counter is really just there so the counter attack goes off properly if an attack is absorbed) on the scepter 2, 8 second cooldown verses

2.75 seconds of evade every 12 seconds between Riptide and Earthen Vortex.

Over the course of a fairly realistic 60 second fight a Weaver is getting 13.75 seconds of evade frames from Riptide and Earthen Vortex. Mesmers are getting 7 potential blocks and 3.5 seconds of evade frames.

Illusionary Ambush is 0.75 seconds on a 35s cooldown.

Twist of Fate is 1s evade on a 40s cooldown, but has the benefit of being an ammo skill. Over the course of a fairly realistic

60 second fight the mirage is getting 1.5 seconds of evade frames from IA, Weaver is getting 3 seconds from twist of fate.

Now Mirage does have a built in evade on False Oasis that Weaver's don't have in their build which can be used potentially three times in a 60 second fight for 2.25 seconds of evade.

Both classes have very high levels of vigor and while Weaver does have more the exact uptime on both is a bit hard to calculate while at work so I'll just say they break even at perma vigor. That's 8 vigor dodges over 60 seconds plus your 2nd endurance bar for a 9th dodge. Equalling 6.75 seconds of dodge roll evades per minute.

Weaver runs energy, Mirage runs double energy so they're both procing it as much as possible, that's another 3 dodges per minute. 2.25 seconds.

When you look at the totals you're looking at:

Mirage: 16.5 seconds of Evade Frames per minute.

Weaver: 25.75 seconds of Evade Frames per minute.

Even if you assume a mirage is running a melee weapon like axe instead of scepter that's 5.25 seconds of evade frames per minute instead of 3.5.

If you want to throw mesmer Distortion on there then you have to throw Obsidian Flesh on there since that's an invulnerability as well, both potentially 4 seconds on 50 second cooldowns so potentially 8 seconds of invulnerability per minute and now we're looking at:

Mirage: 24.5 seconds of evade uptime per minute.Weaver: 33.75 seconds of evade uptime per minute.

This is a pretty extreme rough estimate, assuming both classes are using their defensive options off cooldown all fight long in a way that isn't realistic, but if you're going to throw out statements like "mirage has more evades than Weaver" you should probably check what The actual meta builds are roughly capable of first. Meta Weaver decisively beats Meta Mirage in evade uptime right now.

You would have to count also the mirrors from the trait in mirage, and SoI too, would be impossible to make 100% effective use of all that but in THEORY would be more.

Personally i used to love 3clone shatter f4 -> SoI -> get 3clones and shatter again for 8s+ of invulnerability, and watching warrior/holo monkeys just run into me anyways while swinging at invulnerable, crying op xd.

Well, adding those 8seconds to the time the previous post calculated seems quite op to me, but what do i know, im just a warrior monkey.

And ontop its quite hard to tell from animations or buffs that mesmer is invuln, or how long he will remain invuln.

Especially when you have to constantly find him between his clones and other pink fluff flying around the whole screen.

Everything over half a minute of invulns and complete dmg mitigation is completely out of whack and shouldnt be possible.

There was a Traumadex clip of him that was floating around a while ago of him during a full minute of outnumbered fighting. And he was being measured and careful with his dodges, often sitting at 2 full bars of adrenaline for multiple points of the fight and between Building Momentum, Might Makes Right and Signet of Stamina he did 15 true dodge rolls in one minute. That comes to a true dodge roll every 4 seconds.

Now while Signet of Stamina is a solid choice most Spellbreakers are on Frenzy now a days so we need to calculate how much endurance he was getting from Signet of Stamina and subtract it.

Endurance typically regenerates at a rate of 5 units of endurance per second and each dodge roll costs 50 endurance. If you include the 2nd dodge you have access to at the beginning of the fight that ends up being 7 dodges in a minute of combat normally. Signet of Stamina will bump you up to 7.5 units of endurance per second, this will put you at 10 dodges over one minute if you include the initial 2nd dodge, so SoS was giving him 3 extra dodge rolls per minute. This means with just Building Momentum+Might Makes Right he's getting 12 dodge rolls per minute (Natural 7+5 MMR). And that was actual real footage in an MAT.

So that's 9 seconds of evade based on real in game observations of high end player combat in MATs.Whirlwind Blade can be used 7 times over a minute for an additional 5 seconds of evade over a minute.Shield block can be used three times over a minute so that's 9 seconds of evade.Full Counter can be used 6 times over the course of a minute so that's an additional 3 seconds of evade.Bull's Charge is a 1.25 second evade that can potentially be used 3 times over the course of a fight for an additional 3.75 seconds of evasion (This one in particular is really wonky as if the attack is aimed at an enemy the evade will end early once it reaches them, hit or no, but again like with Mirage and Weaver we're looking at Meta Specs at their most extreme theoretical output)

So Spellbreaker potentially has access to 29.75 seconds of some sort of hard mitigate whether it's block or evade that it can use over a minute of sustained combat. And that's a conservative estimate.

[Axl.8924]

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@"Lilyanna.9361" said:I'm confused as to why everyone wants Ele to be a bunker SO kitten BAD and never wants us to do damage.

you're confused cuz not everyone does, that's the way anet thinks ele should be designed to have a competitive build. sad but true.

You're the confused one here...eles have started in GW2 with a burst spec :

scepter/dagger

and that got nerfed when people started to moan about the dmg, then eles with their dmg gutted got forced to play

valkyrie d/d ele

( old version of valkyrie amulet)..and that too got moaned about and nerfed in the end , then eles became irrelevant for almost 2 years till

DEc 2014

when they decided to "gift" few earth traits to ele , to bring it back to the fold

stone heart and diamond skin

.

Ofc we can't have a viable ele in GW2 so this new

cele d/d ele

got moaned too and nerfs it gots in typical ele fashion..nerfs to the ground, delete diamond skin and delete cele amulet...we can't have a melee based design with a squishy class and grant it some necessary staying power during teamfights. NOOO! We must have a squishy melee based mage with no staying power so that they explode as soon as they get into the fray..because logic.

Maybe eles can do some again from distance with a scepter?...NAAHh can't have that! Nerf the dmg of scepter...and here goes FA core ele...

Expansion 1 comes...let's give something to this irrelevant class ...

a support healer spec

..but make sure to nerf the dmg some more because LoL, once only a handful of people were left to play ele, they decided to introduce this sword mainhand which is comparable in powercreep levels to what other professions have been enjoying for years but...we can't have that can we?

I find it hilarious that a warrior, a guardian or a necro comes and call ele OP....let me make an example

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PKwAEd7lZwSYYsLGKOWTlrXA-z5gHCqDA

, with this build I have as much sustain as a

mender ele

while having 0 healing power and 3x more toughness/power/health/mobility/condi clear and you may ask how...I have this

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/%22For_Great_Justice!%22

, I press it twice get 25 might instantly and get healed for close to

7000 heal every 20s on top of other sources of passive heals

.

The math behind the 7k heal ? :

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mending_Might

+

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Forceful_Greatsword

= 200 heal for might stack so 200 x 25 =5000 and 5000 + (

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vigorous_Shouts

x 2 ) = 7000+ heal...with zero healing power haha and my dmg is through the roof.

( sarcasm mode on )This build is 100% balanced ( sarcasm mode off ) so we should nerf the rest

Welcome to the world of necromancer where we aren't allowed to be good either. I already saw someone asking for nerfs to reaper and scourge got dumpstered on in SPVP and PVE.

Its always the same eles and warriors and guardians cry about necros other classes cry about elementalists, everyone cries about mesmer because they got mobility and sustain and engineers because they are not auto turret fodder anymore.

Everyone cries about everything you aren't alone. People were crying about LB rangers and someone was bound to be crying about GS 2 which is maul.

Also you can bet that if they nerf sword weavers in a way that makes them kitten, i bet you they wouldn't fix it for a year or more, so if weavers get kittened in evades and damage, it will stay kittened.

[Megametzler.5729]

@Fueki.4753 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:reduce condi cleanses from transmute Fire aura for example).Because less condi cleanse from CORE Ele is what exactly what is supposed to nerf WEAVER, right?There already is insufficient condi cleanse to "counter" the condi clown fiesta and you want to reduce that?

Fire weaver uses that exact trait to spam Fire auras and transmute them for huge amounts of condi cleanse...? Fire weaver has a huge amount of steady condi cleanses, rivaling even Water weaver's while being able to use offensive attunements. Would you be happier with an iCD on Sunspot, which allows core to keep their cleanses but limits the access to Fire weaver? This way Fire weaver could keep its damage and healing, but would become vulnerable to conditions. Using the Fire traitline should not bolster defense this much.

You can make own suggestions, you know, instead of screaming "NO NOT THAT!!!" to anything people say.

(...)If you want Fire

Weaver

to underperform again, nerf

Weaver

.(...)

I accept your point of saying you don't have an issue with (Fire) weaver. That's agreeable, I find it a partly dumb playstyle, but that's fine.

However, this sentence is dangerous. No: If Fire weaver overperforms, nerf what makes this build OP. If you nerf Weaver in general, you hurt many other builds as well, namely Water, FA and Dagger builds. Look at what Fire weaver makes differently than the other builds and nerf that.

[RedShark.9548]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:

@"Megametzler.5729" said:Why is Fire Weaver a problem anyway?Compared to Mirage:It evades less than Mirage.

Meta fire Weaver way outpaces meta Condi mirage right now in evade uptime.

1 single block and one 0.5 second evade (Which similar to Full Counter is really just there so the counter attack goes off properly if an attack is absorbed) on the scepter 2, 8 second cooldown verses

2.75 seconds of evade every 12 seconds between Riptide and Earthen Vortex.

Over the course of a fairly realistic 60 second fight a Weaver is getting 13.75 seconds of evade frames from Riptide and Earthen Vortex. Mesmers are getting 7 potential blocks and 3.5 seconds of evade frames.

Illusionary Ambush is 0.75 seconds on a 35s cooldown.

Twist of Fate is 1s evade on a 40s cooldown, but has the benefit of being an ammo skill. Over the course of a fairly realistic

60 second fight the mirage is getting 1.5 seconds of evade frames from IA, Weaver is getting 3 seconds from twist of fate.

Now Mirage does have a built in evade on False Oasis that Weaver's don't have in their build which can be used potentially three times in a 60 second fight for 2.25 seconds of evade.

Both classes have very high levels of vigor and while Weaver does have more the exact uptime on both is a bit hard to calculate while at work so I'll just say they break even at perma vigor. That's 8 vigor dodges over 60 seconds plus your 2nd endurance bar for a 9th dodge. Equalling 6.75 seconds of dodge roll evades per minute.

Weaver runs energy, Mirage runs double energy so they're both procing it as much as possible, that's another 3 dodges per minute. 2.25 seconds.

When you look at the totals you're looking at:

Mirage: 16.5 seconds of Evade Frames per minute.

Weaver: 25.75 seconds of Evade Frames per minute.

Even if you assume a mirage is running a melee weapon like axe instead of scepter that's 5.25 seconds of evade frames per minute instead of 3.5.

If you want to throw mesmer Distortion on there then you have to throw Obsidian Flesh on there since that's an invulnerability as well, both potentially 4 seconds on 50 second cooldowns so potentially 8 seconds of invulnerability per minute and now we're looking at:

Mirage: 24.5 seconds of evade uptime per minute.Weaver: 33.75 seconds of evade uptime per minute.

This is a pretty extreme rough estimate, assuming both classes are using their defensive options off cooldown all fight long in a way that isn't realistic, but if you're going to throw out statements like "mirage has more evades than Weaver" you should probably check what The actual meta builds are roughly capable of first. Meta Weaver decisively beats Meta Mirage in evade uptime right now.

You would have to count also the mirrors from the trait in mirage, and SoI too, would be impossible to make 100% effective use of all that but in THEORY would be more.

Personally i used to love 3clone shatter f4 -> SoI -> get 3clones and shatter again for 8s+ of invulnerability, and watching warrior/holo monkeys just run into me anyways while swinging at invulnerable, crying op xd.

Well, adding those 8seconds to the time the previous post calculated seems quite op to me, but what do i know, im just a warrior monkey.

And ontop its quite hard to tell from animations or buffs that mesmer is invuln, or how long he will remain invuln.

Especially when you have to constantly find him between his clones and other pink fluff flying around the whole screen.

Everything over half a minute of invulns and complete dmg mitigation is completely out of whack and shouldnt be possible.

Inability to tell the real mesmer from clones, and getting confused by clutter is l2p issue.Not knowing what to look out for, how mirage dodge looks like, cooldowns of their abilities or how disortion looks like, is l2p issue.

As for warrior.

Shield block, 3 times for 3s each = 9s. X 9sFull counter 6 times for 6 blocks + 3s. X 3s + 6 blocksGS3 8 times for 6s. X 6sBullscharge 3 times for 3,75s X 3,75s7 normal evades for 5,25s X 5,25Defiant stance, 3 times for 12s X 12sGrand total of 39s of damage immunity, if used with combination of endure pain could go to 45s. and counting rampage as immunity would lend to 55/60s of immunity.Ofc all that is impossible to reach as much as weaver/mirage stuff but you know, your apple is hanging on the same tree along with mirage and weaver mrs warrior.

Edit the X and time after is meaningless, i used it to make it readable for me and im too lazy to remove it now that im done.Edit Edit, Didnt count potential weapon swap endurance or endurancce gained from traits, could potentially go more XD

I never said i wasnt able to tell the real mesmer, its still bothersome and takes atleast some time, even for you, if you dont admit it, you are lying. You cant tell which one is real in 0.0seconds.

Mirage dodges dont have an animation, isnt that the whole premise of the specc? They can even cast skills while doing so lol.

Rampage is nowhere near to an immunity, wtf. If that was the case we might aswel have to count using LoS and how much dmg you can do to an enemy while using LoS without him hitting back.

Did i ever say this wouldnt go for warrior?More than half a minute is too much, gj adding all thise numbers you get a cybercookie.

Having that much is too much, if multiple classes need to have that many to survive, then there is seriously something wrong with dmg output in the game.Reduce dmg, across the board, reduce invuln durations so they are not spammable and become meaningfull when you actually block a big burst. Makes for more fun and skillful play than just mindlessly rotating them.

On a sidenote, im not a mrs.Dunno if you were trying to mock me with that or whatever, im a dude.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@RedShark.9548 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:

@"Megametzler.5729" said:Why is Fire Weaver a problem anyway?Compared to Mirage:It evades less than Mirage.

Meta fire Weaver way outpaces meta Condi mirage right now in evade uptime.

1 single block and one 0.5 second evade (Which similar to Full Counter is really just there so the counter attack goes off properly if an attack is absorbed) on the scepter 2, 8 second cooldown verses

2.75 seconds of evade every 12 seconds between Riptide and Earthen Vortex.

Over the course of a fairly realistic 60 second fight a Weaver is getting 13.75 seconds of evade frames from Riptide and Earthen Vortex. Mesmers are getting 7 potential blocks and 3.5 seconds of evade frames.

Illusionary Ambush is 0.75 seconds on a 35s cooldown.

Twist of Fate is 1s evade on a 40s cooldown, but has the benefit of being an ammo skill. Over the course of a fairly realistic

60 second fight the mirage is getting 1.5 seconds of evade frames from IA, Weaver is getting 3 seconds from twist of fate.

Now Mirage does have a built in evade on False Oasis that Weaver's don't have in their build which can be used potentially three times in a 60 second fight for 2.25 seconds of evade.

Both classes have very high levels of vigor and while Weaver does have more the exact uptime on both is a bit hard to calculate while at work so I'll just say they break even at perma vigor. That's 8 vigor dodges over 60 seconds plus your 2nd endurance bar for a 9th dodge. Equalling 6.75 seconds of dodge roll evades per minute.

Weaver runs energy, Mirage runs double energy so they're both procing it as much as possible, that's another 3 dodges per minute. 2.25 seconds.

When you look at the totals you're looking at:

Mirage: 16.5 seconds of Evade Frames per minute.

Weaver: 25.75 seconds of Evade Frames per minute.

Even if you assume a mirage is running a melee weapon like axe instead of scepter that's 5.25 seconds of evade frames per minute instead of 3.5.

If you want to throw mesmer Distortion on there then you have to throw Obsidian Flesh on there since that's an invulnerability as well, both potentially 4 seconds on 50 second cooldowns so potentially 8 seconds of invulnerability per minute and now we're looking at:

Mirage: 24.5 seconds of evade uptime per minute.Weaver: 33.75 seconds of evade uptime per minute.

This is a pretty extreme rough estimate, assuming both classes are using their defensive options off cooldown all fight long in a way that isn't realistic, but if you're going to throw out statements like "mirage has more evades than Weaver" you should probably check what The actual meta builds are roughly capable of first. Meta Weaver decisively beats Meta Mirage in evade uptime right now.

You would have to count also the mirrors from the trait in mirage, and SoI too, would be impossible to make 100% effective use of all that but in THEORY would be more.

Personally i used to love 3clone shatter f4 -> SoI -> get 3clones and shatter again for 8s+ of invulnerability, and watching warrior/holo monkeys just run into me anyways while swinging at invulnerable, crying op xd.

Well, adding those 8seconds to the time the previous post calculated seems quite op to me, but what do i know, im just a warrior monkey.

And ontop its quite hard to tell from animations or buffs that mesmer is invuln, or how long he will remain invuln.

Especially when you have to constantly find him between his clones and other pink fluff flying around the whole screen.

Everything over half a minute of invulns and complete dmg mitigation is completely out of whack and shouldnt be possible.

Inability to tell the real mesmer from clones, and getting confused by clutter is l2p issue.Not knowing what to look out for, how mirage dodge looks like, cooldowns of their abilities or how disortion looks like, is l2p issue.

As for warrior.

Shield block, 3 times for 3s each = 9s. X 9sFull counter 6 times for 6 blocks + 3s. X 3s + 6 blocksGS3 8 times for 6s. X 6sBullscharge 3 times for 3,75s X 3,75s7 normal evades for 5,25s X 5,25Defiant stance, 3 times for 12s X 12sGrand total of 39s of damage immunity, if used with combination of endure pain could go to 45s. and counting rampage as immunity would lend to 55/60s of immunity.Ofc all that is impossible to reach as much as weaver/mirage stuff but you know, your apple is hanging on the same tree along with mirage and weaver mrs warrior.

Edit the X and time after is meaningless, i used it to make it readable for me and im too lazy to remove it now that im done.Edit Edit, Didnt count potential weapon swap endurance or endurancce gained from traits, could potentially go more XD

I never said i wasnt able to tell the real mesmer, its still bothersome and takes atleast some time, even for you, if you dont admit it, you are lying. You cant tell which one is real in 0.0seconds.

Mirage dodges dont have an animation, isnt that the whole premise of the specc? They can even cast skills while doing so lol.

Rampage is nowhere near to an immunity, kitten. If that was the case we might aswel have to count using LoS and how much dmg you can do to an enemy while using LoS without him hitting back.

Did i ever say this wouldnt go for warrior?More than half a minute is too much, gj adding all thise numbers you get a cybercookie.

Having that much is too much, if multiple classes need to have that many to survive, then there is seriously something wrong with dmg output in the game.Reduce dmg, across the board, reduce invuln durations so they are not spammable and become meaningfull when you actually block a big burst. Makes for more fun and skillful play than just mindlessly rotating them.

On a sidenote, im not a mrs.Dunno if you were trying to mock me with that or whatever, im a dude.

these entire thing is taken out of thin air, weaver, warrior and mirage cant actually reach these numbers, its rought estimate,most sidenoders have these crazy uptimes, I would agree to across the board changes, the fact is that devs cant be trusted to handle them properly, as is right now they will "look into mirage cloak" as they did look into chrono, and its gonna be the end for mirage.I said it before and I say it again, if there are 4 broken specs that are comperable to eachother, nerfing 1 of them fixes nothing, in fact it creates more problems, all 4 HAVE to be nerfed.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@Arheundel.6451 said:snips

your entire post pretty much cements what I said about anet thinking ele needs healing power in their meta builds, regardless of how its perceived to have started. anet could have balanced f/a ele, instead they shifted their entire meta role. the people didn't do that.

[LazySummer.2568]

I don't understand all these condi mirage's complaints against fire weavers when:

• it's an insane kiting machine:
• all of its attacks are ranged
• can evade / counter attack with shatter while cc'ed
• has at least 2 displacement skills, both usable while cc'ed
• big impact skills such as arcane thievery and phantasmal duelist that allows you to cast behind your back, with the slow from arcane thievery being insanely good against the weaver, especially when they happened to use Fire 2 during it.
• has access to chill/cripple for more kiting, with chill being particularly good against weavers in general
• even if you're just running around and not actively attacking, your clones are constantly auto attacking the weaver for free, with extra bursts whenever you press evade, and these damage stack up that the weaver cant just ignore them completely.
• has access to poison to lowers weaver's sustain
• has basically no tell on several of its important attacks (shatters, magic bullet, arcane thievery, chaos storm) except phantasmal duelist.

All of these on top of having a bunch of clones to clutter up weaver's awareness while you're only fighting a single melee enemy that has obvious tells on its attacks except glyph. It's also not as if the mirage's build has 0 sustain and they can bring extra cleanses from mantra of resolve if they really needed it.Just give up the node for a bit and whittle them down from range instead of letting them get favorable trade on you in melee range. It's even worse for the weaver when it's one of those nodes that has ledges that you can staff 2 to like forest or temple.

Fire weaver doesn't even have that many mass cleanses to deal with your cover condis once they use up weaver self jfc.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@LazySummer.2568 said:I don't understand all these condi mirage's complaints against fire weavers when:

• it's an insane kiting machine:
• all of its attacks are ranged
• can evade / counter attack with shatter while cc'ed
• has at least 2 displacement skills, both usable while cc'ed
• big impact skills such as arcane thievery and phantasmal duelist that allows you to cast behind your back, with the slow from arcane thievery being insanely good against the weaver, especially when they happened to use Fire 2 during it.
• has access to chill/cripple for more kiting, with chill being particularly good against weavers in general
• even if you're just running around and not actively attacking, your clones are constantly auto attacking the weaver for free, with extra bursts whenever you press evade, and these damage stack up that the weaver cant just ignore them completely.
• has access to poison to lowers weaver's sustain
• has basically no tell on several of its important attacks (shatters, magic bullet, arcane thievery, chaos storm) except phantasmal duelist.

All of these on top of having a bunch of clones to clutter up weaver's awareness while you're only fighting a single melee enemy that has obvious tells on its attacks except glyph. It's also not as if the mirage's build has 0 sustain and they can bring extra cleanses from mantra of resolve if they really needed it.Just give up the node for a bit and whittle them down from range instead of letting them get favorable trade on you in melee range. It's even worse for the weaver when it's one of those nodes that has ledges that you can staff 2 to like forest or temple.

Fire weaver doesn't even have that many mass cleanses to deal with your cover condis once they use up weaver self jfc.

And yet weaver wins against mirage, wonder how bad it must feel to try to duel weaver on balanced builds :D1it's an insane kiting machine: -> meanwhile weaver just takes node.2all of its attacks are ranged and thus can be proj blocked3can evade / counter attack with shatter while cc'ed -> dont know what that does anything for mirage vs weaver matchup.4has chill huh? 1s chill RNG every 35s, has chill huh?5weaver can in fact afford to ignore clones, you outheal/cleanse the damage they do, or you can lure them away from node, cleave and retake it, mirage cant stand close to weaver, meaning that whenever you force mirage off point you can just kite, and return when mirage does.6 poison huh? from the fucking rune every 9s, cleanse it? its not like condi thief that perma spams it, its legit one stack.7 no tells : shatter is not important, deals no damage. Pistol 5 is the only hard CC, even if you fail to dodge, twist of fate the followup.chaos storm doesnt matter, just walk away from it, arcane thievery I agree with.

Anything else to add?

[Widmo.3186]

@Ovark.2514 said:They removed evade sword earth and water #2?

I would go back to thief :)