Holo Needs Buffs and Nerfs (Formerly: The recent changes to Holo were good but they weren't enough.)

[Chaith.8256]

@shadowpass.4236 said:You have everything you could possibly want in a build asides from stealth.

And killing power, that's pretty key.

People doubted mantra mesmer's strength pretty hard until I made the 2 forum threads, one of them containing 70 games of raw footage on EU. If you'd like, I can record myself climbing on Prot Holo as well after my finals.

I find it a little silly to claim that you removed 'people's' doubts about Mantra Mesmer's strength by posting on the forums.

I'm sure you can do decent on Prot Holo in ranked, but it'll be a big downgrade to Tools Holo and Mantra Mesmer. You have to depend on people outnumbering you poorly to come close to the level of ranked carry. You'd have more success in premade AT's with Prot Holo. It's like playing weaver in ranked.

[Chaith.8256]

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:@shadowpass.4236

Do you remember saying in other threads how Prot Holo is an oppressive side node build?

According to you, it's achieving that without Net Shot, Overcharged Shot, Blunderbus, Lock On, Elixir S/Toss Elixir S.

If you want to gut all the abovementioned skills, won't that do nothing to lessen mah Holosmith oppression if you make the only build Sw/Sh prot Holo?

Yes it's basically unkillable by power on the knight's variant and it also happens to be almost immune to condis (unless you have a ridiculously high amount of boon corrupt).

Prot Holo has access to a massive amount of % damage reduction, extremely high boon uptime, massive condition clears/healing, multiple anti projectiles, perma poison/weakness against single targets and high uptime on both in an AoE, pulsing heals (multiple water fields and light fields as well), pulsing blinds, pulsing chill, permanent 25 stacks of might etc. etc. This build is extremely strong as a side noder and has the ability to massively heal allies in an AoE whilst simultaneously clearing all of their conditions. You have everything you could possibly want in a build asides from stealth.

Doesn't really address my point about how if Prot Holo is so oppressive with a list of 15 things you find overpowered, why are your nerf suggestions 100% contained to the Tools Holo build? Can you address the truth that your suggestions would only push all Holosmiths into running this overly defensive variant of side node monkey? /s That'd be fun /s

[Falan.1839]

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@"Falan.1839" said:Honestly, just no. These things are just further nerfs for a build that has already been nerfed out of viability in ATs. Maybe it makes sense from a Core Ranger perspective since that is one of the few matchups that are still in Holo's favour, but if you have a realistic look at how holos on equal skillevel now get pummeled by pretty much every meta spec in 1v1 (Weaver, Rev, Mirage, Spellbreaker, Symbolbrand, even Core Nec and kitten PW thief) while just being a budget rev in teamfights without ports and ways to cover its dps with defensive utilites or survive focus, then further nerfs are just not the way to go. Casting times on the rifle skills would just mean the hits I land on a competent rev jumping me and juggling his cooldowns are zero, because rifle 3 and 4 are pretty much the only thing I ever land in those fights where I get ported on and then dragged through a myriad of blocks, blinds. dodges, instant casts, dps skills covered by dodge frames and dps absorbing heals.

Toning down stealth and escape tools would have been a good choice if the last nerfs hadn't happened, but they have. You pick up the few viable mechanics that Holo still has and pretend that this would existent in isolation. Sure Blunderbuss is almost impossible to dodge, but so is Rev F2 and Song of the Mists, each hitting with further procs. Last time I ran into Tramadex I got bombed from 16k to 10 just by these instant AoEs while I was standing on one of the parkour obstacles on Coliseum and he hadn't even engaged in melee yet and wasn't even in line of sight. Sure, Healing Turret isn't easy to rupt, but then again FB mantra can't be rupted at all and glint heal can't either once the signet is precasted. Rifle 4 is hard to dodge, while Gale is impossible to dodge, lasts 3 seconds and on top of that it's unblockable and a dps proc can be traited onto it. But apparently all these things are fine and okay, cause it's not Holo. At least that's the message I seem to be getting from those holo whine-threads in this forum for years now.

Any further nerfs on holo would just be the Chronomancer treatment, aka complete deletion from PvP, with the fine difference that Mesmer has both a viable core build and another elite spec to fall back upon, while Scrapper and Core Engi are already trash tier.

Look at this 1v2 I had vs. a meta tools holo and core mantra mes. The Holo is probably the best DH player atm (imo) and a very solid player overall. I outplayed him pretty hard in the outnumbered fight even though he passively revealed me 3x and was able to Toss Elixir S and completely reset before I could kill him. I had my interrupt ready but Toss Elixir S has such a short cast time I couldn't prevent it. If Lock On didn't reveal on-hit and Toss Elixir S had a longer cast time/shorter stealth, I probably would've killed them both. I even got the decap.

You troll him in a 1v2 for ages while he gets zero pressure on you and gets all of his shit interrupted to the point where he has to hard disengage to not die 2v1 and then in the end you get a bit overconfindent and unlucky at the same time and die. Like, honestly, what is that clip going to tell me? If anything it highlights how hard Holo can be countered right now by people who know what they were doing. If that guy is a also a good player then what do you want? Is Holo only balanced when you are able to comfortably 1v2 it on a Core Ranger (which isn't even exactly a top notch build itself)? If anything, your video only shows how easily Holo is countered by CC now.

[mortrialus.3062]

@wasss.1208 said:

@"shadowpass.4236" said:

1. Lock On needs to have the double proc removed (keep the cc one, remove the on-hit one) and increase the cooldown from 25s to 30s.
2. Toss Elixir S stealth needs to get reduced from 6s to 3s. The cooldown is only 30s and it's basically a free reset every time a holo uses it. The current iteration literally gives more stealth uptime than a traited Mass Invisibility on mesmer and the cast time is only 1/2s.
3. Net Shot needs a cast time of 1/2s or 3/4s with a visible animation tied to it.
4. Blunderbuss needs a cast time increase to 3/4s with a bigger animation tied to it.
5. Overcharged Shot needs a cast time of 1/2s or 3/4s with visible animation tied to it.

Let me toss in my opinion on the engi nerfs you ask for, if you don't mind.(I see you compare it to Mass Invis. Let me point that out, that you can't really compare skills from different profs. in vacuum, since every prof. has a different kit given around that single skill. More about this later.)

When Mass Invisibility was finally buffed the developers themselves admitted it was stupid they let Toss Elixir S and Stealth Gyro power creep so hard on the mesmer "stealth elite" skill. So you can and the developers themselves did which is why they finally buffed it.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@wasss.1208 said:

@"shadowpass.4236" said:

1. Lock On needs to have the double proc removed (keep the cc one, remove the on-hit one) and increase the cooldown from 25s to 30s.
2. Toss Elixir S stealth needs to get reduced from 6s to 3s. The cooldown is only 30s and it's basically a free reset every time a holo uses it. The current iteration literally gives more stealth uptime than a traited Mass Invisibility on mesmer and the cast time is only 1/2s.
3. Net Shot needs a cast time of 1/2s or 3/4s with a visible animation tied to it.
4. Blunderbuss needs a cast time increase to 3/4s with a bigger animation tied to it.
5. Overcharged Shot needs a cast time of 1/2s or 3/4s with visible animation tied to it.

Let me toss in my opinion on the engi nerfs you ask for, if you don't mind.(I see you compare it to Mass Invis. Let me point that out, that you can't really compare skills from different profs. in vacuum, since every prof. has a different kit given around that single skill. More about this later.)

When Mass Invisibility was finally buffed the developers themselves admitted it was stupid they let Toss Elixir S and Stealth Gyro power creep so hard on the mesmer "stealth elite" skill. So you can and the developers themselves did which is why they finally buffed it.

To chim in on this one, heavier classes have BETTER use of stealth then light classes anyways.Not only mass invis is worse but also has less synergy with the class, mesmer cant just hide in stealth to blast field 3+ times to heal, or hide superlong animation.Its used to reposition, and hide 3/4s casttime, mb charge mantra if you play build that uses it.

[shion.2084]

@Falan.1839 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Falan.1839 said:Honestly, just no. These things are just further nerfs for a build that has already been nerfed out of viability in ATs. Maybe it makes sense from a Core Ranger perspective since that is one of the few matchups that are still in Holo's favour, but if you have a realistic look at how holos on equal skillevel now get pummeled by pretty much every meta spec in 1v1 (Weaver, Rev, Mirage, Spellbreaker, Symbolbrand, even Core Nec and kitten PW thief) while just being a budget rev in teamfights without ports and ways to cover its dps with defensive utilites or survive focus, then further nerfs are just not the way to go. Casting times on the rifle skills would just mean the hits I land on a competent rev jumping me and juggling his cooldowns are zero, because rifle 3 and 4 are pretty much the only thing I ever land in those fights where I get ported on and then dragged through a myriad of blocks, blinds. dodges, instant casts, dps skills covered by dodge frames and dps absorbing heals.

Toning down stealth and escape tools would have been a good choice if the last nerfs hadn't happened, but they have. You pick up the few viable mechanics that Holo still has and pretend that this would existent in isolation. Sure Blunderbuss is almost impossible to dodge, but so is Rev F2 and Song of the Mists, each hitting with further procs. Last time I ran into Tramadex I got bombed from 16k to 10 just by these instant AoEs while I was standing on one of the parkour obstacles on Coliseum and he hadn't even engaged in melee yet and wasn't even in line of sight. Sure, Healing Turret isn't easy to rupt, but then again FB mantra can't be rupted at all and glint heal can't either once the signet is precasted. Rifle 4 is hard to dodge, while Gale is impossible to dodge, lasts 3 seconds and on top of that it's unblockable and a dps proc can be traited onto it. But apparently all these things are fine and okay, cause it's not Holo. At least that's the message I seem to be getting from those holo whine-threads in this forum for years now.

Any further nerfs on holo would just be the Chronomancer treatment, aka complete deletion from PvP, with the fine difference that Mesmer has both a viable core build and another elite spec to fall back upon, while Scrapper and Core Engi are already trash tier.

Look at this 1v2 I had vs. a meta tools holo and core mantra mes. The Holo is probably the best DH player atm (imo) and a very solid player overall. I outplayed him pretty hard in the outnumbered fight even though he passively revealed me 3x and was able to Toss Elixir S and completely reset before I could kill him. I had my interrupt ready but Toss Elixir S has such a short cast time I couldn't prevent it. If Lock On didn't reveal on-hit and Toss Elixir S had a longer cast time/shorter stealth, I probably would've killed them both. I even got the decap.

You troll him in a 1v2 for ages while he gets zero pressure on you and gets all of his kitten interrupted to the point where he has to hard disengage to not die 2v1 and then in the end you get a bit overconfindent and unlucky at the same time and die. Like, honestly, what is that clip going to tell me? If anything it highlights how hard Holo can be countered right now by people who know what they were doing. If that guy is a also a good player then what do you want? Is Holo only balanced when you are able to comfortably 1v2 it on a Core Ranger (which isn't even exactly a top notch build itself)? If anything, your video only shows how easily Holo is countered by CC now.

Uh so watched the video.... and basically the Holo is ineffective against all the stealths and CC and burst the ranger has. I totally don't see how this does anything other than demonstrate that the Holo is either a poor player (which you say he's not I believe) or that it needs to be a bit better tuned up to be competitive.

Incidentally the Overcharged shot relies on a holo having stab... which he's now in dire straights for... So they did effectively nerf the skill. I get that you don't like being revealed, but that's sort of what is left to the Holo and a small counter to the ridiculous stealth cheese that goes on (including from Holos).

[Mbelch.9028]

Shadowpass: .........Good Players: no.Shadowpass but....Good Players: no.Shadowpass Imma let you finish but...Good Players sigh.

[shadowpass.4236]

@Falan.1839 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Falan.1839 said:Honestly, just no. These things are just further nerfs for a build that has already been nerfed out of viability in ATs. Maybe it makes sense from a Core Ranger perspective since that is one of the few matchups that are still in Holo's favour, but if you have a realistic look at how holos on equal skillevel now get pummeled by pretty much every meta spec in 1v1 (Weaver, Rev, Mirage, Spellbreaker, Symbolbrand, even Core Nec and kitten PW thief) while just being a budget rev in teamfights without ports and ways to cover its dps with defensive utilites or survive focus, then further nerfs are just not the way to go. Casting times on the rifle skills would just mean the hits I land on a competent rev jumping me and juggling his cooldowns are zero, because rifle 3 and 4 are pretty much the only thing I ever land in those fights where I get ported on and then dragged through a myriad of blocks, blinds. dodges, instant casts, dps skills covered by dodge frames and dps absorbing heals.

Toning down stealth and escape tools would have been a good choice if the last nerfs hadn't happened, but they have. You pick up the few viable mechanics that Holo still has and pretend that this would existent in isolation. Sure Blunderbuss is almost impossible to dodge, but so is Rev F2 and Song of the Mists, each hitting with further procs. Last time I ran into Tramadex I got bombed from 16k to 10 just by these instant AoEs while I was standing on one of the parkour obstacles on Coliseum and he hadn't even engaged in melee yet and wasn't even in line of sight. Sure, Healing Turret isn't easy to rupt, but then again FB mantra can't be rupted at all and glint heal can't either once the signet is precasted. Rifle 4 is hard to dodge, while Gale is impossible to dodge, lasts 3 seconds and on top of that it's unblockable and a dps proc can be traited onto it. But apparently all these things are fine and okay, cause it's not Holo. At least that's the message I seem to be getting from those holo whine-threads in this forum for years now.

Any further nerfs on holo would just be the Chronomancer treatment, aka complete deletion from PvP, with the fine difference that Mesmer has both a viable core build and another elite spec to fall back upon, while Scrapper and Core Engi are already trash tier.

Look at this 1v2 I had vs. a meta tools holo and core mantra mes. The Holo is probably the best DH player atm (imo) and a very solid player overall. I outplayed him pretty hard in the outnumbered fight even though he passively revealed me 3x and was able to Toss Elixir S and completely reset before I could kill him. I had my interrupt ready but Toss Elixir S has such a short cast time I couldn't prevent it. If Lock On didn't reveal on-hit and Toss Elixir S had a longer cast time/shorter stealth, I probably would've killed them both. I even got the decap.

You troll him in a 1v2 for ages while he gets zero pressure on you and gets all of his kitten interrupted to the point where he has to hard disengage to not die 2v1 and then in the end you get a bit overconfindent and unlucky at the same time and die. Like, honestly, what is that clip going to tell me? If anything it highlights how hard Holo can be countered right now by people who know what they were doing. If that guy is a also a good player then what do you want? Is Holo only balanced when you are able to comfortably 1v2 it on a Core Ranger (which isn't even exactly a top notch build itself)? If anything, your video only shows how easily Holo is countered by CC now.

You partially just answered your own question. Do you think it was by luck I interrupted every single Corona Burst after the mes left and I could focus more on the 1v1 instead of kiting? How about the fact that I was able to dodge every single net shot and overcharged shot because they were used at medium ranges (as opposed to close ranges/not including the one that revealed me at the end during my heal)?

That's the type of gameplay I'd like to see where I'm able to COUNTERPLAY the enemy if I react properly to what they do. I only had to stunbreak when I knocked myself back when I PBS'd mid-air into Mirror so I couldn't cancel/dodge it in time (again not including the OS that revealed me at the end). I also kept track of cooldowns and dodged everything I needed to dodge in a 1v2 matchup where one of my opponents had a high uptime on invisibility and both having instant cast CCs/damage.

My point of the video was to show you how I can play pretty well and outplay multiple players for 2 minutes but traits/abilities like Lock On and Toss Elixir S just create a lot of value for the other player without requiring much thought. I can guarantee you that his first 2 reveals were entirely due to luck and he might've time OS during my heal, which I was fine with because I could've kited behind him in the other direction. Also, it took me slightly more than 40 seconds to bring the Holo down from full health so the fact that he's able to reset with Toss Elixir S every 30 seconds means I would flat out would/should not ever be able to kill him unless I saved all of my CCs for when he was low-health.

[shadowpass.4236]

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@"shadowpass.4236" said:

1. Lock On needs to have the double proc removed (keep the cc one, remove the on-hit one) and increase the cooldown from 25s to 30s.
2. Toss Elixir S stealth needs to get reduced from 6s to 3s. The cooldown is only 30s and it's basically a free reset every time a holo uses it. The current iteration literally gives more stealth uptime than a traited Mass Invisibility on mesmer and the cast time is only 1/2s.
3. Net Shot needs a cast time of 1/2s or 3/4s with a visible animation tied to it.
4. Blunderbuss needs a cast time increase to 3/4s with a bigger animation tied to it.
5. Overcharged Shot needs a cast time of 1/2s or 3/4s with visible animation tied to it.
6. Photon Forge autoattack range needs to get reduced to match other melee auto attacks.
7. Healing Turret needs it's cast time increased from 3/4s to 1s.

Or we could do none of this....and instead not kill core engi tools and look at the problem which is photon forge (risk)

Note i said RISK because thats the whole issue with the elite mechanic is not its damage or its range but the risk that comes with using it.

How about instead of killing everything that is core engi and for the most part fine you instead look at the problem which is the fact that holo's main mechanic is extremly low risk to use.

How do we solve this problem...

1. We increase passive heat generation over time.
2. We adjust heat generation cost of each of the skills
3. We even consider making it so that holo no longer passively loses heat when they exit without trait investment to do so. (possibly forcing them to choose between stability on holo 3 or losing heat when they exit)
4. We add visuals instant cast damage tool belt skills which are some of the biggest offenders in the most comon holo builds.

Ideally you increase the RISK of using holo instead of nerfing everything that is core engi which ruins it from not only a core but also any other elite perspective.

The only 2 issues I have with Photon Forge are the range of the auto attacks and how low the cooldown is on Holo Leap. The damage is fine because all of the skills have good animations tied to them. As you can see from this

I posted or the many times I've killed holo in 1v1s in my core mes videos, I can consistently outplay them yet still get hit by stuff like Lock On completely by chance (where one reveal proc is already enough to completely change the outcome of a fight.)

So you might have a different opinion, but personally, I don't think Photon Forge needs much tuning asides from the auto attacks and cooldown on Holo Leap (the range on Holographic Shockwave was another outlier until they reduced it). Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

[shadowpass.4236]

@Chaith.8256 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:You have everything you could possibly want in a build asides from stealth.

And killing power, that's pretty key.

People doubted mantra mesmer's strength pretty hard until I made the 2 forum threads, one of them containing 70 games of raw footage on EU. If you'd like, I can record myself climbing on Prot Holo as well after my finals.

I find it a little silly to claim that you removed 'people's' doubts about Mantra Mesmer's strength by posting on the forums.

I'm sure you can do decent on Prot Holo in ranked, but it'll be a big downgrade to Tools Holo and Mantra Mesmer. You have to depend on people outnumbering you poorly to come close to the level of ranked carry. You'd have more success in premade AT's with Prot Holo. It's like playing weaver in ranked.

I'm not saying I single-handedly changed the meta but the fact that my mantra threads got 7.1 thousand and 5.4 thousand views respectively, I will say that the amount of core mantra mesmers I've seen on both NA and EU have increased significantly.

Prot Holo in ranked, currently, wins node every single time. Killing power is important but so is the ability to win nodes. The only build that I'd say can compete with Prot Holo in terms of node presence is symbolbrand.

Prot Holo also has the advantage of being able to waltz into a teamfight and support their teammates exceptionally well. Also, it's able to survive multiple players in a 1vX for an extended period of time due to how much raw mitigation and defensive capabilities it has access to.

[shadowpass.4236]

@Chaith.8256 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:@shadowpass.4236

Do you remember saying in other threads how Prot Holo is an oppressive side node build?

According to you, it's achieving that without Net Shot, Overcharged Shot, Blunderbus, Lock On, Elixir S/Toss Elixir S.

If you want to gut all the abovementioned skills, won't that do nothing to lessen mah Holosmith oppression if you make the only build Sw/Sh prot Holo?

Yes it's basically unkillable by power on the knight's variant and it also happens to be almost immune to condis (unless you have a ridiculously high amount of boon corrupt).

Prot Holo has access to a massive amount of % damage reduction, extremely high boon uptime, massive condition clears/healing, multiple anti projectiles, perma poison/weakness against single targets and high uptime on both in an AoE, pulsing heals (multiple water fields and light fields as well), pulsing blinds, pulsing chill, permanent 25 stacks of might etc. etc. This build is extremely strong as a side noder and has the ability to massively heal allies in an AoE whilst simultaneously clearing all of their conditions. You have everything you could possibly want in a build asides from stealth.

Doesn't really address my point about how if Prot Holo is so oppressive with a list of 15 things you find overpowered, why are your nerf suggestions 100% contained to the Tools Holo build? Can you address the truth that your suggestions would only push all Holosmiths into running this overly defensive variant of side node monkey? /s That'd be fun /s

Prot Holo is oppressive because, even though I can see every single animation they do, the amount of damage reduction/tankiness/immense amount of sustained damage they have is too much for almost every single build to fight against in a 1v1. Like if they swap to conversions instead of phys damage counter, condi builds (like mirage) in a 1v1 will do little more than give the Prot Holo more boons.

So, Prot Holo should get looked at but for entirely different reasons than Tools Holo. Tools Holo needs better animations and a change to Lock On at the very least. Prot Holo is absurdly tanky and hard to kill without requiring the user to do anything particularly special asides from simply SLOTTING the build.

I feel the need to point out the fact that I multiclass because I enjoy playing DIFFERENT classes. I get bored of ranger 7 years into the game. With that being said, it should go without saying that I completely support more build diversity and would much rather other classes' having access to a plethora of viable builds to mess around with than other classes being nerfed to the point of unusability at higher ratings/against better players (where I am/who I enjoy fighting).

[shadowpass.4236]

@Mbelch.9028 said:Shadowpass: .........Good Players: no.Shadowpass but....Good Players: no.Shadowpass Imma let you finish but...Good Players sigh.

Hello my guildmate, these are the forums and I'm allowed to share my opinions. If people disagree, that's fine, but I'm also allowed to counter with my own arguments. I'm not some random gold player that's memeing around.

[shadowpass.4236]

@Chaith.8256 said:

@"shadowpass.4236" said:Did I say dodge the weapon swaps or PAY ATTENTION to the weapon swaps so you have an early indicator of a possible Winter's Bite/Path of Scars opener?

Did you say PAY ATTENTION or to dodge predictively? Because you can't reactively dodge those skills, that's Naru's entire point.

We can all see that you said to observe the weapon swap and then predict-dodge the first few hits on the hope they're Winter's Bite/Path of Scars instead of an auto-attack, because we all know they just look like the Ranger is quickly chucking' an axe. That's clearly telling people to predict the skills, a strategy which you refuse to acknowledge as fair to be forced to do vs. Holo's rifle.

I said, "PAY ATTENTION to the weapon swaps." Unlike mantra charges or rifle Net Shot + Overcharged Shot, both Winter's Bite and Path of Scars HAVE 1/2s cast times and animations. It's pretty easy to reactively dodge both of those skills.

I do not predict dodge vs. rangers unless they're running a meme Sic Em WI build where they stealth for 6 seconds and I decide to stay still to take my chances rather than simply running away from where I saw them stealth.

[sword flame master.6204]

Rando gold forum cretin

[shadowpass.4236]

@sword flame master.6204 said:Rando gold forum cretin

Dang

[shadowpass.4236]

@"Chaith.8256"

Oh I forgot something.

• You said, "We can all see that you said to observe the weapon swap and then predict-dodge the first few hits on the hope they're Winter's Bite/Path of Scars instead of an auto-attack, because we all know they just look like the Ranger is quickly chucking' an axe. That's clearly telling people to predict the skills, a strategy which you refuse to acknowledge as fair to be forced to do vs. Holo's rifle."

First off, I literally NEVER said I predict-dodge the first few (few?! LOL) hits hoping they're Winter's Bite/Path of Scars.

I've played ranger for a LONG time and I ended up being the PvP guild lead for the largest all-ranger guild in the game (250+ members). I ended up doing a LOT of mirror matchups and coaching so here's a quick tip on how to distinguish the animations for Winter's Bite/Path of Scars from the autoattacks.

Ricochet (axe autos) have a cast time of 1/4 second while Winter's Bite and Path of Scars both have cast times of 1/2 second. In other words, the auto attack animation is literally twice as fast which is an extremely visible difference even when the ranger has quickness.

I hope this helps you (as well as clarify why I'm able to avoid both of those skills (almost?) every time).

[Chaith.8256]

@shadowpass.4236 said:here's a quick tip on how to distinguish the animations for Winter's Bite/Path of Scars from the autoattacksI hope this helps you (as well as clarify why I'm able to avoid both of those skills (almost?) every time).

Don't remember asking you for advice, I was just building off of Naru's point. However, I do call BS. If you look at a Ranger spamming axe autos, and weaving Winter's Bite/Path of Scars in between, it literally all fires at the same tempo & frequency due to auto attack aftercasts. You can only reactively dodge as soon as you see the Ranger raise his hand, it very well could be an auto.

Naru's point was that you can't differentiate and react in time to those pretty strong skills, as with dozens of other skills. I agree with him. You are only disagreeing because it allows you to act like you're bullet-time neo in the matrix, your self humble-stroking is getting real tedious to be honest, I'm off this thread

[shadowpass.4236]

@Chaith.8256 said:

@"shadowpass.4236" said:here's a quick tip on how to distinguish the animations for Winter's Bite/Path of Scars from the autoattacksI hope this helps you (as well as clarify why I'm able to avoid both of those skills (almost?) every time).

Don't remember asking you for advice, I was just building off of Naru's point. However, I do call BS. If you look at a Ranger spamming axe autos, and weaving Winter's Bite/Path of Scars in between, it literally all fires at the same tempo & frequency due to auto attack aftercasts. You can only reactively dodge as soon as you see the Ranger raise his hand, it very well could be an auto.

Naru's point was that you can't differentiate and react in time to those pretty strong skills, as with dozens of other skills. I agree with him. You are only disagreeing because it allows you to act like you're bullet-time neo in the matrix, your self humble-stroking is getting real tedious to be honest, I'm off this thread

The animation for Winter's Bite/Path of Scars is literally 2x as slow as the autos. I don't know what else to tell you man. ¯\(ツ)/¯

That's how I'm able to dodge them personally.

If you can't tell the difference between the speeds, that's a personal issue. You might not have ask for advice but there's nothing wrong with me giving it either. Besides, even if it doesn't help you because you can't distinguish between the two, it might help others out.

Dude do you not see my videos or my vods (Like the full length ones from twitch, not just clips like

where I kite their entire team at the start of the match)? I consistently dodge S2 immobs on thief, PBS, etc. Etc. even in outnumbered fights. Basically anything I really need to avoid gets dodged unless it's coming from stealth/is instant cast.I don't play much anymore but I'm not ego stroking. That's just how I play and who are you to tell me whether or not I can differentiate between the two? Lol

Oh here's a good question. Can you tell the difference between dagger 2 and dagger f1 on spellbreaker? Cause I think that one is annoying, but doable.

[Nilkemia.8507]

This has got to be a troll.

[shadowpass.4236]

@"wasss.1208"

Of course I don't mind. Feel free to share your thoughts and opinions.

• "Lock On is pretty annoying to fight against, I wouldn't mind the double proccing to be gone. But I would like to point out, the sceniaro you often mention when talking about this trait (20 vuln, 10 sec fury, 12 sec revealed) can be only achieved by one go, if you get CCd while in stealth."

Regarding this, I just want to point out that the on-CC proc will apply the reveal even if the target isn't in stealth.

Also, this weekend if I have time in between studying for finals I will stream and/or record me climbing on holo (both tools and prot if people want to see both).

[wasss.1208]

@shadowpass.4236 said:

Regarding this, I just want to point out that the on-CC proc will apply the reveal even if the target isn't in stealth.

Also, this weekend if I have time in between studying for finals I will stream and/or record me climbing on holo (both tools and prot if people want to see both).

I am well aware of that fact. That is probably the case, so the trait isn't a deadweight against enemies without stealth.

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

Mesmers double traited ELITE has lower stealth uptime.All while having longer cast time, and on a class that cant just do master blaster moves to heal to full.

You failed to understand my point about why not to compare directly skills of different professions. Also, this is in my opinion off-topic. If you wish to discuss the balance between those two skills, ping me in one of the mass invis vs engi threads.

@"mortrialus.3062" said:

When Mass Invisibility was finally buffed the developers themselves admitted it was stupid they let Toss Elixir S and Stealth Gyro power creep so hard on the mesmer "stealth elite" skill. So you can and the developers themselves did which is why they finally buffed it.

If devs admitted that these stealth skills are powercrept, that means we will see them getting nerfed with the next patch.

[ZDragon.3046]

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

1. Lock On needs to have the double proc removed (keep the cc one, remove the on-hit one) and increase the cooldown from 25s to 30s.
2. Toss Elixir S stealth needs to get reduced from 6s to 3s. The cooldown is only 30s and it's basically a free reset every time a holo uses it. The current iteration literally gives more stealth uptime than a traited Mass Invisibility on mesmer and the cast time is only 1/2s.
3. Net Shot needs a cast time of 1/2s or 3/4s with a visible animation tied to it.
4. Blunderbuss needs a cast time increase to 3/4s with a bigger animation tied to it.
5. Overcharged Shot needs a cast time of 1/2s or 3/4s with visible animation tied to it.
6. Photon Forge autoattack range needs to get reduced to match other melee auto attacks.
7. Healing Turret needs it's cast time increased from 3/4s to 1s.

Or we could do none of this....and instead not kill core engi tools and look at the problem which is photon forge (risk)

Note i said RISK because thats the whole issue with the elite mechanic is not its damage or its range but the risk that comes with using it.

How about instead of killing everything that is core engi and for the most part fine you instead look at the problem which is the fact that holo's main mechanic is extremly low risk to use.

How do we solve this problem...

1. We increase passive heat generation over time.
2. We adjust heat generation cost of each of the skills
3. We even consider making it so that holo no longer passively loses heat when they exit without trait investment to do so. (possibly forcing them to choose between stability on holo 3 or losing heat when they exit)
4. We add visuals instant cast damage tool belt skills which are some of the biggest offenders in the most comon holo builds.

Ideally you increase the RISK of using holo instead of nerfing everything that is core engi which ruins it from not only a core but also any other elite perspective.

The only 2 issues I have with Photon Forge are the range of the auto attacks and how low the cooldown is on Holo Leap. The damage is fine because all of the skills have good animations tied to them. As you can see from this

I posted or the many times I've killed holo in 1v1s in my core mes videos, I can consistently outplay them yet still get hit by stuff like Lock On completely by chance (where one reveal proc is already enough to completely change the outcome of a fight.)

So you might have a different opinion, but personally, I don't think Photon Forge needs much tuning asides from the auto attacks and cooldown on Holo Leap (the range on Holographic Shockwave was another outlier until they reduced it). Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Thats why you adjust the heat cost as i said its not the range or the skills its the cost of the skills they simply are not high enough and allow too much up time of the forge without risk in competitive modes.

Understand that any changes that come to heat build direct effects how many times they can use any skill and how often they can use a skill in that mode. Overheating should be more common than what it is. I think i see a holo over heat once every 2 months. It just never happens because the risk is not there there is way too much leeway for them to sit in forge for a while (if not using attacks) and then not enough heat build up on using some skills

[Swagger.1459]

@"shadowpass.4236" said:

1. Lock On needs to have the double proc removed (keep the cc one, remove the on-hit one) and increase the cooldown from 25s to 30s.
2. Toss Elixir S stealth needs to get reduced from 6s to 3s. The cooldown is only 30s and it's basically a free reset every time a holo uses it. The current iteration literally gives more stealth uptime than a traited Mass Invisibility on mesmer and the cast time is only 1/2s.
3. Net Shot needs a cast time of 1/2s or 3/4s with a visible animation tied to it.
4. Blunderbuss needs a cast time increase to 3/4s with a bigger animation tied to it.
5. Overcharged Shot needs a cast time of 1/2s or 3/4s with visible animation tied to it.
6. Photon Forge autoattack range needs to get reduced to match other melee auto attacks.
7. Healing Turret needs it's cast time increased from 3/4s to 1s.

Here are the problems with your suggestions...

You seem to be stuck in the old ways of balancing that do nothing except tee off players, and that don’t address the big issues.

There is nothing inherently wrong with the stealth uptime on engineer, the problem is the bad stealth system for the game.

Playing melee sucks a lot of the time, on all professions. The game favors ranged builds more by design, because the combat system was designed to allow players to cast and move, so nobody is standing still. The best melee skills and weapons are the ones that port or move you to the target to keep pressure, and having better range to be more dependable is important. Melee skills need a range boost for this game, not a reduction.

If cast times and animations are a problem to you on engineer rifle, then we need to talk about all the skills, across all professions, that are instant cast and have extremely poor to no animations. And hello from 1 shot builds and quick secession attacks that kill you in a couple seconds... And most of the time when you’re fighting in groups you have to look at the combat logs to see what happened, because the skill designs of the game allow for dumping massive amounts of not clearly identifiable stuff and effects on players in seconds.

I use to be a competitive support role player in another game, that was heck of a lot more fast paced than this, yet had clearer visuals, clearer animations, skill effects... so players knew exactly what was happening in the moment, not after the fact like in GW2. Edit- and here some video demonstrations of 8v8 arena in that old game (that was launched 1 year before Guild Wars 1, that now has people in negotiation with NCSoft to make official again), recorded in 2019...

Gw2 has almost everything designed for pve, not pvp, and that’s the main problem. And it’s not just issues with 1 profession or 1 weapon, it’s issues with all of the major designs.

While your thoughts may have merit, you’d be a stronger voice if you looked at the bigger pictures.

[mortrialus.3062]

@wasss.1208 said:

@"mortrialus.3062" said:

When Mass Invisibility was finally buffed the developers themselves admitted it was stupid they let Toss Elixir S and Stealth Gyro power creep so hard on the mesmer "stealth elite" skill. So you can and the developers themselves did which is why they finally buffed it.

If devs admitted that these stealth skills are powercrept, that means we will see them getting nerfed with the next patch.

That's not what they said, nor does that mean some of the worst cased of stealth power creep, Toss Elixir S, Sneak Gyro, Deadeye in general, and Mass Invisibility in response to the previous are getting hit next patch at all.

Finally, Mass Invisibility has fallen behind other mesmer elite skills—as well as other sources of stealth over the years—so we're giving it a boost to help it compete.

[shion.2084]

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:@shadowpass.4236

Do you remember saying in other threads how Prot Holo is an oppressive side node build?

According to you, it's achieving that without Net Shot, Overcharged Shot, Blunderbus, Lock On, Elixir S/Toss Elixir S.

If you want to gut all the abovementioned skills, won't that do nothing to lessen mah Holosmith oppression if you make the only build Sw/Sh prot Holo?

Yes it's basically unkillable by power on the knight's variant and it also happens to be almost immune to condis (unless you have a ridiculously high amount of boon corrupt).

Prot Holo has access to a massive amount of % damage reduction, extremely high boon uptime, massive condition clears/healing, multiple anti projectiles, perma poison/weakness against single targets and high uptime on both in an AoE, pulsing heals (multiple water fields and light fields as well), pulsing blinds, pulsing chill, permanent 25 stacks of might etc. etc. This build is extremely strong as a side noder and has the ability to massively heal allies in an AoE whilst simultaneously clearing all of their conditions. You have everything you could possibly want in a build asides from stealth.

Doesn't really address my point about how if Prot Holo is so oppressive with a list of 15 things you find overpowered, why are your nerf suggestions 100% contained to the Tools Holo build? Can you address the truth that your suggestions would only push all Holosmiths into running this overly defensive variant of side node monkey? /s That'd be fun /s

Prot Holo is oppressive because, even though I can see every single animation they do, the amount of damage reduction/tankiness/immense amount of sustained damage they have is too much for almost every single build to fight against in a 1v1. Like if they swap to conversions instead of phys damage counter, condi builds (like mirage) in a 1v1 will do little more than give the Prot Holo more boons.

So, Prot Holo should get looked at but for entirely different reasons than Tools Holo. Tools Holo needs better animations and a change to Lock On at the very least. Prot Holo is absurdly tanky and hard to kill without requiring the user to do anything particularly special asides from simply SLOTTING the build.

I feel the need to point out the fact that I multiclass because I enjoy playing DIFFERENT classes. I get bored of ranger 7 years into the game. With that being said, it should go

without saying

that I completely support more build diversity and would much rather other classes' having access to a plethora of viable builds to mess around with than other classes being nerfed to the point of unusability at higher ratings/against better players (where I am/who I enjoy fighting).

I don't really see a lot of effective Prot holo's holding points indefinitely. I find the Tools Holo's much more effective in swinging games. I mean once a prot holo runs out of HLA (which only has a longer duration if their heat is up), they are left with invuln or stealth options, both of which force them to loose the node they are standing on. Do you really have a hard time with them holding a node for long durations? I ask in sincerity, maybe they are much more effective at higher tiers than the plat 1 and gold 3 levels.

Incidentally I play a non-meta zerker holo that uses shield / sword, with the inventions / alchemy / and Holo. So maybe I just have an advantage against prot holos. It could be a matter of build compatibility. You shouldn't expect any given build to deal with every given other build. There are some matchups I just can't win and I figure that out and go somewhere I'd be more useful. I think that's the way things should be. You generally should be able to own some folks, be on par with some, and relatively ineffective against some when in a 1v1. Figuring it out should come early, and then you play with what you got.