A little wish for balancing to come.

[Axl.8924]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@LucianDK.8615 said:Yes, necro only have the shroud. When that is gone you are a sitting duck.

as any other proffesion? mesmer only has evades, when they are gone they are sitting ducks!

@Axl.8924 as I said before, necro can facetank CC way more then alot of other classes, expecially when you corrupt might/fury of your oponents beforehand, so that when you DO get stunned you dont get much dmage, and when you do you still have shround to take the most of it.

Boon corrupt as someone pointed out with mesmers and that buff rip, has limited effect on thieves and mesmers. Als due to amount of boon spam rangers can just keep range shoot us down for 25k dmg, and if they do get close they get destroyed, but likelyhood of that is small unless ranger is unaware. Thieves are mostly unaffected due to reasons above. Warriors if they don't focus us down and use GS or whatever, they are easier to boon corrupt, and it has good dmg on them.

Tanking damage with toughness only gets you so far when being kited by a thief or ranged by ranger. Even if a ranger doe spam way more boons, we are hard countered so hard by rangers due to their nature of having a ton of escapes and heavy damage at range plus hard cc, and stab itself doesn't stop hard ccs, it works on stuns disorients knockbacks, and necros are hit fairly hard by hard CC and our ability to deal with hard cc, and while we can mitigate some, the mobility of other classes combined with hard cc is just too much, which is why we are hard countered so badly by so many classes.

Every class has its weaknesses mesmers have trouble dealing with thieves probably due to limited ways of dealing with mobility burst and disengage, and you guys said yourself that thief is a class that doesn't spam boons a lot.

Warriors do spam boons but they also are fairly hard-hitting have a combination of hard cc's mobility and damage as high or higher than necro while having sustain, which is fairly broken.

Some of the power comes from broken build as well, like damage bonuses combined like malice for deadeye, might and fury just makes things worse.

Necros face tank some, but overall tanking with toughness is nowhere near as good or as effective as evades like the ones thief mirage have invuln mesmers rangers escapes thief ranger some guardian teleports because they have a port on 10S CD. Invuln lasts 4 seconds so no matter how hard you hit, in that 4 sec it could equal 1 mil DPS if you want in 3 sec and if you put that against a necro, in theory, it would still be too much for reaper shroud and core shroud.

In fact something like 15k would instantly drop you out of shroud and practically put you in downed state and how many classes can do that? well, thief from stealth can put you in instant down state Warriors too with their sword can do 15k with i think its number 5 rifle warrs Stealthy thieves who backstab for 25-30k can one-shot people rifle deadeyes. Also pu mes can do one shot build lets see:Rangers with pew pew bow can do 20+k with bow 15k+ with GS maul. Revenants got mobility and damage combined can hit hard, so many builds can do over 10k, problem is that if you combine hard cc mobility and mega dmg which is somethins soulbeast can do and thief, there is little room to outplay them, which is why necros are asking for help somehow to be able to deal with the onslaught of hardcounters.

Can boon corrupt hit hard? sure but so can mirage, so can soulbeast, so can warriors thief core with pistolwhip deadeyes backstabbing S/D stealthy thieves, in fact: these ones can do more than necro, especially thief combined with stealth and mobility and with ease. A ranger with GS can hit really hard and got pet to back em up and have sustain and disengages which makes them strong roamers, which is important.

Necromancers were never strong roamer class and in the current climate cannot be, due to how hard countered by ccs they are, and mobility with dmg combined by others.

There are little ways to outplay them in the current climate. A mobile class with plenty of hard cc's and damage will just hard cc and tunnel you down knowing you have little chance to fight back, also boon corrupt is likeky core which is even more vulnerable and weaker than reaper.

I've seen it plenty of times where i'm plenty aware but i lack tools to properly fight a lot of classes.

I edited to make sure it was as clear and well put as possible and make sure there are no antagonistic words to avoid trouble of any kind with mods here.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Axl.8924Direct and condition damage done to the life force pool is reduced by 50% <-- this is something mose people are not in the know about.Damage is added in full in the combat log, but you actually take half of it, so 25k hit to shroud will deal 12,5k dmg meaning that ubernuke doesnt even take all of your shroud, thats why its strong.

Necro can actually almost match rangers range, mark have 1200 range + 300 aoe ( 150 from the center ) meaning you can hit them from 1350 range, only 150 less.And when you kite back they are left on the floor so they walk into the marks if they want to move after you.

[Sigmoid.7082]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@Axl.8924Direct and condition damage done to the life force pool is reduced by 50% <-- this is something mose people are not in the know about.Damage is added in full in the combat log, but you actually take half of it, so 25k hit to shroud will deal 12,5k dmg meaning that ubernuke doesnt even take all of your shroud, thats why its strong.

There is more nuance to it than that. It has some odd overflow rules. Shroud is much better against many small hits rather than singular big ones.

[LucianDK.8615]

But the necro is a sitting duck once the shroud is gone. Once its bursted down his damage is tanked.

[Dadnir.5038]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@"Axl.8924"Direct and condition damage done to the life force pool is reduced by 50% <-- this is something mose people are not in the know about.Damage is added in full in the combat log, but you actually take half of it, so 25k hit to shroud will deal 12,5k dmg meaning that ubernuke doesnt even take all of your shroud, thats why its strong.

You need 25k health from the begining for a 25k hit to not take out all of your shroud, thought. And most people know it because the base shroud life pool is simply 50% of the out of shroud life pool. The 50% damage reduction thing just round things up, nothing more nothing less. To be clear, the 25k hit will use 19k to remove the shroud and hit the regular health pool for 6k. Which basically mean that if you're a glass-canon trying to block with shroud a 25k hit with less than 6k health remaining, you're as good as dead. While someone just providentially poping out a block or a dodge will survive the ordeal.

Anyway, a single aegis can very well void a 100K hit which is why the defense potential of professions that "void" damage is higher than the defense potential of the necromancer which only have a few blind to "void" damage.

[Axl.8924]

Let's not forget you start with 0 life force in-game so the first encounter as reaper and you are good as dead when focused.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@"Axl.8924"Direct and condition damage done to the life force pool is reduced by 50% <-- this is something mose people are not in the know about.Damage is added in full in the combat log, but you actually take half of it, so 25k hit to shroud will deal 12,5k dmg meaning that ubernuke doesnt even take all of your shroud, thats why its strong.

You need 25k health from the begining for a 25k hit to not take out all of your shroud, thought. And most people know it because the base shroud life pool is simply 50% of the out of shroud life pool. The 50% damage reduction thing just round things up, nothing more nothing less. To be clear, the 25k hit will use 19k to remove the shroud and hit the regular health pool for 6k. Which basically mean that if you're a glass-canon trying to block with shroud a 25k hit with less than 6k health remaining, you're as good as dead. While someone just providentially poping out a block or a dodge will survive the ordeal.

Anyway, a single aegis can very well void a 100K hit which is why the defense potential of professions that "void" damage is higher than the defense potential of the necromancer which only have a few blind to "void" damage.

you are incorrect. shroud consists of 69% of your max hp. taking HALF the damage means that you need to take 138% of your max hp to lose entire shroud.and since necro has at LEAST 19,212 HP. It means you have at least 26,512 HP worth of shroud. In game it shows half of it but remember you take 50% damage.So IF you have full shroud and recive 25K hp hit you will not drop out of it, even if you have no toughtness or vitality, IF you have vitality you have even more HP and if you have toughtness you take less damage, so you dont get hit for 25k to begin with.

• you can take trait that increases shroud HP to even bigger numbers

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

@"Sobx.1758" said:

Necro already has multiple stability sources, you're just choosing to use different builds and making those builds stronger by adding more utility on top of them wouldn't exactly be reasonable.

necro stab is very limited and the majority are on reaper if you didn't know

I didn't know and I still don't, because that's a lie.

Core Necro has 3 sources total, one of which is 1 stack for 1 second in Well of Power. That stability is only able to cover the skill's own short cast, so it is not worth counting as a "stability source."

The other two are Lich Form, which has its own 3/4 second cast time before you get access to it, making it impossible to use in response to incoming CC, and Foot in the Grave, which is generally bad to use to cover a non-Shroud skill due to requiring flashing Shroud (but unlike Lich Form, is actually usable in PvP scenarios).

Core Necro can't cover any of its important skill casts with Stability. The only profession with less Stability is Thief, which has large numbers of evades and blinds so they don't get CC'd in the first place.

[Dadnir.5038]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@"Axl.8924"Direct and condition damage done to the life force pool is reduced by 50% <-- this is something mose people are not in the know about.Damage is added in full in the combat log, but you actually take half of it, so 25k hit to shroud will deal 12,5k dmg meaning that ubernuke doesnt even take all of your shroud, thats why its strong.

You need 25k health from the begining for a 25k hit to not take out all of your shroud, thought. And most people know it because the base shroud life pool is simply 50% of the out of shroud life pool. The 50% damage reduction thing just round things up, nothing more nothing less. To be clear, the 25k hit will use 19k to remove the shroud and hit the regular health pool for 6k. Which basically mean that if you're a glass-canon trying to block with shroud a 25k hit with less than 6k health remaining, you're as good as dead. While someone just providentially poping out a block or a dodge will survive the ordeal.

Anyway, a single aegis can very well void a 100K hit which is why the defense potential of professions that "void" damage is higher than the defense potential of the necromancer which only have a few blind to "void" damage.

you are incorrect. shroud consists of 69% of your max hp. taking HALF the damage means that you need to take 138% of your max hp to lose entire shroud.and since necro has at LEAST 19,212 HP. It means you have at least 26,512 HP worth of shroud. In game it shows half of it but remember you take 50% damage.So IF you have full shroud and recive 25K hp hit you will not drop out of it, even if you have no toughtness or vitality, IF you have vitality you have even more HP and if you have toughtness you take less damage, so you dont get hit for 25k to begin with.

• you can take trait that increases shroud HP to even bigger numbers

I said base shroud, which mean without the soul reaping traitline giving you 20% extra life force (Which make 50%+20=70% not 69%). Look again please, without soul reaping before stating I am incorrect.

Even so, I am not wrong in the fact that a finite defense like death shroud is inferior to an infinite defense like aegis in numerous ways. I'm also not wrong in saying that faced against hard CC, voiding the effect via a block is superior to tanking it with health point.

Also, the same goes for every profession, if you take toughness you indeed take less damage, I was just refering to a normal situation of a glass canon facing another. 25k damage was just a point of reference achievable by some professions, We could easily imagine a situation where you face 2 players able to land 25k at the same time for a grand total of 50k and the necromancer would die helplessly while most other profession would survive: warrior (shield block, endure pain... etc.), an elementalist (wapor form, obsidian flesh... etc.), a ranger (signet of stone), a guardian (shelter, renewed focus... etc.), mesmer (blur, distorsion), engineer (gear shield, elixir S... etc.), revenant (warding rift, unrelenting assault).

Also, let's be honest, few players are willing to invest into toughness and vitality or even skills and traits that could improve their survivability even when they perform poorly in sPvP, because the best defense in this game have been offense and damage avoidance since release.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@"Axl.8924"Direct and condition damage done to the life force pool is reduced by 50% <-- this is something mose people are not in the know about.Damage is added in full in the combat log, but you actually take half of it, so 25k hit to shroud will deal 12,5k dmg meaning that ubernuke doesnt even take all of your shroud, thats why its strong.

You need 25k health from the begining for a 25k hit to not take out all of your shroud, thought. And most people know it because the base shroud life pool is simply 50% of the out of shroud life pool. The 50% damage reduction thing just round things up, nothing more nothing less. To be clear, the 25k hit will use 19k to remove the shroud and hit the regular health pool for 6k. Which basically mean that if you're a glass-canon trying to block with shroud a 25k hit with less than 6k health remaining, you're as good as dead. While someone just providentially poping out a block or a dodge will survive the ordeal.

Anyway, a single aegis can very well void a 100K hit which is why the defense potential of professions that "void" damage is higher than the defense potential of the necromancer which only have a few blind to "void" damage.

you are incorrect. shroud consists of 69% of your max hp. taking HALF the damage means that you need to take 138% of your max hp to lose entire shroud.and since necro has at LEAST 19,212 HP. It means you have at least 26,512 HP worth of shroud. In game it shows half of it but remember you take 50% damage.So IF you have full shroud and recive 25K hp hit you will not drop out of it, even if you have no toughtness or vitality, IF you have vitality you have even more HP and if you have toughtness you take less damage, so you dont get hit for 25k to begin with.

• you can take trait that increases shroud HP to even bigger numbers

I said base shroud, which mean without the soul reaping traitline giving you 20% extra life force (Which make 50%+20=70% not 69%). Look again please, without soul reaping before stating I am incorrect.

Even so, I am not wrong in the fact that a finite defense like death shroud is inferior to an infinite defense like aegis in numerous ways. I'm also not wrong in saying that faced against hard CC, voiding the effect via a block is superior to tanking it with health point.

Also, the same goes for every profession, if you take toughness you indeed take less damage, I was just refering to a normal situation of a glass canon facing another. 25k damage was just a point of reference achievable by some professions, We could easily imagine a situation where you face 2 players able to land 25k at the same time for a grand total of 50k and the necromancer would die helplessly while most other profession would survive: warrior (shield block, endure pain... etc.), an elementalist (wapor form, obsidian flesh... etc.), a ranger (signet of stone), a guardian (shelter, renewed focus... etc.), mesmer (blur, distorsion), engineer (gear shield, elixir S... etc.), revenant (warding rift, unrelenting assault).

Also, let's be honest, few players are willing to invest into toughness and vitality or even skills and traits that could improve their survivability even when they perform poorly in sPvP, because the best defense in this game have been offense and damage avoidance since release.

The base size of your life force pool is 69% of your maximum health, meaning it is indirectly affected by your Vitality attribute, and can be further increased by the Soul Battery minor trait of the Soul Reaping specialization, to 82.80% of maximum health. < ---- straight from the viki.

why are you arguing about it, all you have to do is use quick google. Shroud is MUCH stronger then people give it credit for.You HAVE to dodge hard hitting burst like any other class, and ignore medium/small hits. As a mesmer i cant afford to get hit by ANY warrior ability, enything that hits me takes 20%+ of my HP. Do I have more dodges? yes, but I have more attacks I absolutely HAVE to dodge.On necro you can easy peasy facetank swordthrow,basic auto and even some hard hitting skills when you are ready to punish for them. You can let them land dash into you and in turn land corrupt from focus as a trade that brings you breathing room for example.

And speaking of defensive amulets, EVERY SINGLE meta build uses amulet with defensive stats.Why? becouse they scale better then pure offensive ones, the more power you have the less % damage increase it provides.And since BIG number of builds have insane ammount of bonus raw stats, full offensive amulet doesnt provide all that much damage.example of warrior. Perma 25 might = perma 750 power.extra 10 power per might = extra 250 power.extra 240 power from GS trait.extra might and ferocity from Attacker's Insight = 225 power and 225 ferocity.this is 1700+ extra raw offensive stats.

Switching demolisher amulet for berserker amulet will up the damage by 5%-8% while increasing damage taken by 20%+.Its simply not worth it.Every class has different reason for taking defensive stats for their amulets but they ALL do.Thief has medium armour and low base HP so they run maruders to not get 1shot by a fart on the wind.Necro runs vital becouse it scales with the shroud, or toughtness to make their raw HP more effective.Guard becouse they have low HP take vital, etc etc.

[KrHome.1920]

@Dadnir.5038 said:I am not wrong in the fact that a finite defense like death shroud is inferior to an infinite defense like aegis in numerous ways. I'm also not wrong in saying that faced against hard CC, voiding the effect via a block is superior to tanking it with health point.The game mechanic is a bit more complex. Life force generation is much stronger than a heal. You can fill your LF pool to at least 50% with ease during the shroud cooldown. So what you should aim for is to take as few damage as possible during the 10s cooldown to be able to maintain your shroud rotations. The game gives you plenty of things to achieve this. Necros have a high health pool, two dodges, spectral walk and access to blind and soft cc.

In the current state of the game - unlike for all other classes - marauder is unviable for necros because the defense to healing ratio is bad. After soul eater was reworked and before it was nerfed and could heal in shroud at least marauder reaper was finally viable. Unfortunately the trait was too strong in pve (30k dps x 5% = 1500 hp/s in shroud, and this on up to 5 targets = up to 6000 hp/s) and anet did the wrong thing (they should have just lowered the healing in pve to 2%). This leads to the fact that necros have to select toughness gear to improve their heals to some viable extent.

All this has nothing to do with blocks, evades or teleports.

@Leonidrex.5649 said:The base size of your life force pool is 69% of your maximum health, meaning it is indirectly affected by your Vitality attribute, and can be further increased by the Soul Battery minor trait of the Soul Reaping specialization, to 82.80% of maximum health. < ---- straight from the viki.The base life force pool is 69% of your hp pool. Selecting soul reaping increases the life force by 20% (used to be 15%, but was buffed in the soul reaping rework patch).

69 x 1,2 = 82,8%

These 20% is also what you lose each time, when you travel to another map on a soul reaping build: 100 / 1,2 = 83,3% / 1,2 = 69,4% ... (known bug since game release)

Just for clarification...

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

Necro already has multiple stability sources, you're just choosing to use different builds and making those builds stronger by adding more utility on top of them wouldn't exactly be reasonable.

necro stab is very limited and the majority are on reaper if you didn't know

I didn't know and I still don't, because that's a lie.

Core Necro has 3 sources total, one of which is 1 stack for 1 second in Well of Power. That stability is only able to cover the skill's own short cast, so it is not worth counting as a "stability source."

lmao, it's a stability source no matter how you try to dress it up. Stop lying/moving the goalposts, because suddenly you decide whether a stab source is indeed a stab source or not based on your made up classification.

The other two are Lich Form, which has its own 3/4 second cast time before you get access to it, making it impossible to use in response to incoming CC, and Foot in the Grave, which is generally bad to use to cover a non-Shroud skill due to requiring flashing Shroud (but unlike Lich Form, is actually usable in PvP scenarios).

Wait, what? Suddenly stab source doesn't count as one because it has a cast time? That's actually hilarious. :lol:Also it's your choice what you use, if you value stab so high, pick it. If you want another skill in that slot, pick that one. What you and some of the people in here want, is to overload thier already "go to" choices with free stab. That's pure nonsense and it blows my mind you don't understand that.

"Existence of Stability" does not equal "usefulness of said stability." If there was a skill that gave 1 millisecond of Stability, you apparently would still count it. It won't do anything whatsoever, but it's clear you're intending to argue in bad faith here regardless.

[Axl.8924]

@KrHome.1920 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:I am not wrong in the fact that a finite defense like death shroud is inferior to an infinite defense like aegis in numerous ways. I'm also not wrong in saying that faced against hard CC, voiding the effect via a block is superior to tanking it with health point.The game mechanic is a bit more complex. Life force generation is much stronger than a heal. You can fill your LF pool to at least 50% with ease during the shroud cooldown. So what you should aim for is to take as few damage as possible during the 10s cooldown to be able to maintain your shroud rotations. The game gives you plenty of things to achieve this. Necros have a high health pool, two dodges, spectral walk and access to blind and soft cc.

In the current state of the game - unlike for all other classes - marauder is unviable for necros because the defense to healing ratio is bad. After soul eater was reworked and before it was nerfed and could heal in shroud at least marauder reaper was finally viable. Unfortunately the trait was too strong in pve (30k dps x 5% = 1500 hp/s in shroud, and this on up to 5 targets = up to 6000 hp/s) and anet did the wrong thing (they should have just lowered the healing in pve to 2%). This leads to the fact that necros have to select toughness gear to improve their heals to some viable extent.

All this has nothing to do with blocks, evades or teleports.

@Leonidrex.5649 said:The base size of your life force pool is 69% of your maximum health, meaning it is indirectly affected by your Vitality attribute, and can be further increased by the Soul Battery minor trait of the Soul Reaping specialization, to 82.80% of maximum health. < ---- straight from the viki.The base life force pool is 69% of your hp pool. Selecting soul reaping increases the life force by 20% (used to be 15%, but was buffed in the soul reaping rework patch).

69 x 1,2 = 82,8%

These 20% is also what you lose each time, when you travel to another map on a soul reaping build: 100 / 1,2 = 83,3% / 1,2 = 69,4% ... (known bug since game release)

Just for clarification...

But block invuln and aegis is an important comparison because, in the current meta, things hit so hard that blocks and invulns and aegis or just flat out evade becomes more desireable than face tanking. Why face tank a rifle warr when aegis invuln or evades work better? In this meta damage needs to go down, then toughness will be more useful yet than it is.

And worse yet core necro is even more limited than reaper, who at least has shroud.

[Anchoku.8142]

I wish shroud absorbed all damage before being kicked out of it like it did originally. It was effectively a block back then with a cool down and charging (LF gen) requirement.

The change to allow spill-over damage means it is only a partial block depending on how close to full, or empty, the LF pool is. No other profession has something like it but Thief's Initiative system might be the closest as spamming mobility skills when unneeded can make them unavailable in a pinch.