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Core Necro Post Patch Will Have Broken Sustain - Told You

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  • Emapudapus.1307Emapudapus.1307 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2020

    I dont see problem directly with DS as its now, but with the spells that were changed over time and boosts the life force generation.
    Spectral walk, life force on fear, and signet that if traitet, also regenerate lf in shroud. Which by itself also promoting passive and lazy/easy gameplay and camping in shroud.

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @NecroSummonsMors.7816 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @NecroSummonsMors.7816 said:
    Suddenly core necro might not become an ez free kill, and everybody cries even before even seeing the full scope of a patch. Some of you talk about magic builds that have everything, deathmagic, blood magic, signet traited(spite), awesome fear(soul reaping), terror(curse). Calm down.

    You will have probably just 3 of those lines, and considering necro power damage and corruption got nerfed. I mean all corruption cut in half, will have single corruption per skill, except boon corrupt which got nerfed with cd increase.
    So if the undieing build you are talking about is wells, blood magic, death magic(carapace stacks), soul reaping, that build is a bruiser with trash damage that relies heavily on landing axe 2 and dagger 2 in one after another to even have a burst, after that nothing, wet noodle level of damage with axe autos or dagger.
    You can't even go condi with that setup because guess what? they nerfed that too and without curses and fear that does dmg no condi core is viable.
    You will go with power dmg, but axe damage is nerfed, dagger auto is nerfed, soul siphon heal is nerfed. Yes that build is design to be attrition fighting, so what? Classes like weaver can have that with god level of burn dmg with 25 might stacks for months, and you haven't even see the full patch scope and already complain about it.
    When we all know now things like fresh air ele, deadeye, rangers, rifle warriors and anything that can range burst has laughed in the face of a tanky necro.

    Now let's go for the unkillable fear machine aoe, with triple stun break someone suggested.
    If it's a terror build curses will be picked, which implies since every condi duration rune will be cut that you will have to pick soul reaping too(with new patch even more). So now you're left with 1 traitline, you won't be able to have death magic and blood magic and signets build, you must pick of those. Based on what you pick with deathmagic or blood you become more tanky with spite you get the signet of vampirism life regen. And no you won't be able to have good corruption on this builds because guess what all cutted in half. Let's all remember now doom has a cast time, so no cries for instant fear. Want fear aoe pick staff, you want more get spectral ring, but oof now no triple stun breaks, you have only 2 left. So you are playing condi, you will pick scepter, but oof that got corrupt nerfed too and the scepter has now 1 corrupt, and grasping death got now only 2 bleed stacks. So on a condi build like with with scepter/dagger and staff you will have 2 corrupts, if you want triple stun break no corrupt boon otherwise you will go up on corruption with it(only 2 stun breaks), but since you are playing condi you will be taking plaguelands no Lichform elite for stab because it will be useless.

    So it's condi fear build will have a lot less corruption with only 1 tanky line to choose, if it's power core will not have and fear dmg and it will be a power bruiser with the entire dmg on axe 2 and dagger 2 with more corrupts, and I've been playing this build for a long time and I can tell you the damage is all there. Sure you could go for well of suffering or corruption for more dmg but again no triple stun break there. And for Lich Form no necro in his right mind if there's another necro in enemy team will pick it because it will just end up in a fear chain.
    You are crafting magical all doing builds without giving an exact value to what viable builds will bring.

    That’s the most apocalyptic necro balance analysis I’ve seen yet.

    No it's a realistic one that weights all the options avilable.
    If you can counter any of the points I've made, I'll be here to discuss them. What I wrote about the builds are facts. I've been playing core necro since 2012 and I have a ferm grasp of all the possible builds on it. Is it true or not that necro corruptions will get halved on dagger, axe,scepter, spiteful spirit? Is true or not that all power dmg abilities (axe2, dagger auto, life transfer, life blast) which are crucial to power core will be nerfed? Is it true or not that you can't have 3 breakstuns if u take corrupt boon or spectral ring on a condi terror build? Is it true or not that doom will have a cast time so no instant fear?And I could go on stating more, but I guess you understand the point, and by all mean if something I wrote is wrong feel free to correct me.

    All true but also irrelevant. Everything is getting nerfed and guess what thats exactly why threads like this were made bcuz necro does good in low damage metas

  • @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @NecroSummonsMors.7816 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @NecroSummonsMors.7816 said:
    Suddenly core necro might not become an ez free kill, and everybody cries even before even seeing the full scope of a patch. Some of you talk about magic builds that have everything, deathmagic, blood magic, signet traited(spite), awesome fear(soul reaping), terror(curse). Calm down.

    You will have probably just 3 of those lines, and considering necro power damage and corruption got nerfed. I mean all corruption cut in half, will have single corruption per skill, except boon corrupt which got nerfed with cd increase.
    So if the undieing build you are talking about is wells, blood magic, death magic(carapace stacks), soul reaping, that build is a bruiser with trash damage that relies heavily on landing axe 2 and dagger 2 in one after another to even have a burst, after that nothing, wet noodle level of damage with axe autos or dagger.
    You can't even go condi with that setup because guess what? they nerfed that too and without curses and fear that does dmg no condi core is viable.
    You will go with power dmg, but axe damage is nerfed, dagger auto is nerfed, soul siphon heal is nerfed. Yes that build is design to be attrition fighting, so what? Classes like weaver can have that with god level of burn dmg with 25 might stacks for months, and you haven't even see the full patch scope and already complain about it.
    When we all know now things like fresh air ele, deadeye, rangers, rifle warriors and anything that can range burst has laughed in the face of a tanky necro.

    Now let's go for the unkillable fear machine aoe, with triple stun break someone suggested.
    If it's a terror build curses will be picked, which implies since every condi duration rune will be cut that you will have to pick soul reaping too(with new patch even more). So now you're left with 1 traitline, you won't be able to have death magic and blood magic and signets build, you must pick of those. Based on what you pick with deathmagic or blood you become more tanky with spite you get the signet of vampirism life regen. And no you won't be able to have good corruption on this builds because guess what all cutted in half. Let's all remember now doom has a cast time, so no cries for instant fear. Want fear aoe pick staff, you want more get spectral ring, but oof now no triple stun breaks, you have only 2 left. So you are playing condi, you will pick scepter, but oof that got corrupt nerfed too and the scepter has now 1 corrupt, and grasping death got now only 2 bleed stacks. So on a condi build like with with scepter/dagger and staff you will have 2 corrupts, if you want triple stun break no corrupt boon otherwise you will go up on corruption with it(only 2 stun breaks), but since you are playing condi you will be taking plaguelands no Lichform elite for stab because it will be useless.

    So it's condi fear build will have a lot less corruption with only 1 tanky line to choose, if it's power core will not have and fear dmg and it will be a power bruiser with the entire dmg on axe 2 and dagger 2 with more corrupts, and I've been playing this build for a long time and I can tell you the damage is all there. Sure you could go for well of suffering or corruption for more dmg but again no triple stun break there. And for Lich Form no necro in his right mind if there's another necro in enemy team will pick it because it will just end up in a fear chain.
    You are crafting magical all doing builds without giving an exact value to what viable builds will bring.

    That’s the most apocalyptic necro balance analysis I’ve seen yet.

    No it's a realistic one that weights all the options avilable.
    If you can counter any of the points I've made, I'll be here to discuss them. What I wrote about the builds are facts. I've been playing core necro since 2012 and I have a ferm grasp of all the possible builds on it. Is it true or not that necro corruptions will get halved on dagger, axe,scepter, spiteful spirit? Is true or not that all power dmg abilities (axe2, dagger auto, life transfer, life blast) which are crucial to power core will be nerfed? Is it true or not that you can't have 3 breakstuns if u take corrupt boon or spectral ring on a condi terror build? Is it true or not that doom will have a cast time so no instant fear?And I could go on stating more, but I guess you understand the point, and by all mean if something I wrote is wrong feel free to correct me.

    All true but also irrelevant. Everything is getting nerfed and guess what thats exactly why threads like this were made bcuz necro does good in low damage metas

    So the problem is that necro does good in low damage metas?

  • EremiteAngel.9765EremiteAngel.9765 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Emapudapus.1307 said:
    I dont see problem directly with DS as its now, but with the spells that were changed over time and boosts the life force generation.
    Spectral walk, life force on fear, and signet that if traitet, also regenerate lf in shroud. Which by itself also promoting passive and lazy/easy gameplay and camping in shroud.

    I agree. This shroud camping meta must end.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Dahkeus.8243 said:

    @zoopop.5630 said:
    can we also mention that core necro has 0 source of stability unless using an Elite ?

    Tanky, no stability, but CC does no damage...

    I get the joke but there's people that think that.
    Why are people pretending like anything other than knockback wont be a near-guaranteed setup for shroud-deleting attacks?

    True but does reaper have no stunbreak to get up after hard cc before burst? 90%when I knockdown on warrior it's pointless cuz stunbreaks are so rampant

    It... It doesnt.

    it has a skill that grants them stability. It wont work if they use it after they get cced.

    Reaper as a melee heavy, seriously needs a trait that does "stun break on shroud activation."

    Never understood why that wasn't a thing.

    Because it's already part of the core traitline, most Reapers don't trait for any sustain at all.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • Jobe.8290Jobe.8290 Member ✭✭

    Removing Foot in the Grave is a strong buff to Core Necro, the Stability was useless anyways :)

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Do you not pay attention when you are against good Core Necros? You can bottom out a LF bar and then 9s later the Necro pops shroud at 100% again.

    what lol? build pls

    Simple

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:
    Core necro shroud functionality was nerfed. They put a cast time and 660ms reaction on Doom. That's 100% a functionality nerf.

    Life Blast and Life Transfer got the blanket coefficient nerfs, however I wouldn't be against Tainted Shackles and Dark Path receiving the same treatment as every other skill, then I think everything would be fine.

    I mean the LF total pool in conjunction with how much LF they can generate in very short durations of time. That stuff is directly tied to the idea of "sustain factor" just as much as healing stat is.

    Can you elaborate on "Life force generated in a short amount of time?"
    How much is too much in a short amount of time and what amount of time to you qualifies as a short amount of time?

    I dont agree on the healing stat part though sorry.

    Do you not pay attention when you are against good Core Necros? You can bottom out a LF bar and then 9s later the Necro pops shroud at 100% again. there literally isn't anything that could qualify as "faster or in a shorter amount of time" than that.

    I guess the problem that I was trying to point out in this thread is that the LF % gains that Necros get for generation, are completely separate from the actual damage they deal. So even if a Necro attack deals barely any damage at all, if the tooltip says "This skill grants 15% LF" it will refill that LF bar by 15% of its total, when that low damage attack is used. <- This is insane to allow to stay this way in an upcoming patch that is supposed to address overbuffed sustain tools game wide. The LF bar is health. I see people posting in here who seem to be wanting to work around that fact, but the LF is a health bar, and it is able to be regenerated to full in 9s over and over again. <- And this is something that is STRONGER while wearing things like Carrion/Rune of Speed, that grant a ton of vitality. Heal stat isn't advantageous for Core Necro, Vitality it is.

    Guys, this is already tanky in 1v1s NOW with very high DPS. When the DPS literally "drops through the floor to half of what it is now" it will be impossible to kill a good Necro 1v1. Even if you can do it over the course of time, it won't be worth the time wasted during a conquest match. And INB4 this "but CCs but CCs" that's the most hopeful apathetic thing I've heard in a very long time in this forum. What good is CC training a friggin 28k health death shroud with protection & carapace stacks on it, when you aren't dealing damage while doing it? At that point the Necro doesn't NEED stability because even if he gets Bull's Charged for 0 damage, he'll only eat 1 follow up attack and then be on his feet to move again. By the 1 or 2 people are actually able to deal enough damage to a 28k protection/carapace Death Shroud to bottom it out, or by the time they wait it out, it will have been long enough to where all of those Shroud regeneration skills are ALL off CD again. It's going to be a situation where if a player or players cannot kill the Necro during his 9s vulnerability phase in between Shroud cycles, welp gg. Because that's going to be the only kill opportunity you'll get on it at all. Trying to pummel at & bottom out the Death Shroud is going to become a great way to find yourself losing to attrition.

    And I love this "But it doesn't have stability" as if it didn't have triple stun break utility bar, an elite that grants it stability, and a bunch of boon rips to remove opponent stability & convert it into Fear, in conjunction with a roster of heavy AoE Fear CC that keeps people away from it to begin with.

    I'm just saying, it might not be able beat you up and kill you real easily, but you won't be able to get a Core Necro off a node 1v1 after this patch. You'd need something built for it like a Decap Engi abusing the hell out of Throw Land Mine or a Ventari Rev. I'm telling you, this Core Necro side node will drive the meta in the same way Fire Weaver drove meta. People will have to resort to other methods outside of DPS to be able to deal with impending Core Necro Side Node. That or ignore it and only ever engage it if 2v1.

    Maybe a good idea to lower the LF regen from these skills in a pvp/wvw split, or reduce the total LF health bar in pvp/wvw on Core Necro. Mind you I am only speaking of Core Necro. I feel that Reaper/Scourge will find a good balance point post patch. Core Necro Shroud's fuel tank is just way way way to deep at this point though, and it's going to show post patch.

    This is true example if u take signet traited u can 1.) get full shroud super fast 2.) regenerate shroud faster than u lose it(like what) 3.) u have an instant Rez that btw is bugged so that after 5 secs in shroud it comes back fully recharged. Necro is starting to look nutty with all the reworks and patches

    Signet and possibly some attacks that generate lf can get you full shroud in about 9 secs.

    Just to point out the most LF you will get from the signet in 9s is 24%. This still leaves over 3/4 of your of to gain other ways.

    Also even with the desired signet LF degen is always a met negative. Drops to average 1% on core and 3% on reaper.

    Also how is the signet bugged? It causes ever signet to recharge in 13~20s.

    I mean its design is to win through attrition and it will actually be able to fill its niche.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jobe.8290 said:
    Removing Foot in the Grave is a strong buff to Core Necro, the Stability was useless anyways :)

    It's not a buff when you replace something "useless" by something equally "useless".

    People weren't taking FitG despite it's usefulness and they won't take eternal life either simply because there is no reason to take it at all. Some people seem to think that eternal life will grant 20% LF whenever you leave the shroud, It most likely won't. In the end the trait will just be perceived as a trait that give prot when entering shroud and players will simply discard the idea of taking it when they can take free 30% crit chance and more crit damage.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Jobe.8290 said:
    Removing Foot in the Grave is a strong buff to Core Necro, the Stability was useless anyways :)

    It's not a buff when you replace something "useless" by something equally "useless".

    People weren't taking FitG despite it's usefulness and they won't take eternal life either simply because there is no reason to take it at all.

    I disagree. People took FitG and they will take EL.

  • Jobe.8290Jobe.8290 Member ✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Jobe.8290 said:
    Removing Foot in the Grave is a strong buff to Core Necro, the Stability was useless anyways :)

    It's not a buff when you replace something "useless" by something equally "useless".

    People weren't taking FitG despite it's usefulness and they won't take eternal life either simply because there is no reason to take it at all. Some people seem to think that eternal life will grant 20% LF whenever you leave the shroud, It most likely won't. In the end the trait will just be perceived as a trait that give prot when entering shroud and players will simply discard the idea of taking it when they can take free 30% crit chance and more crit damage.

    The new trait is nice for bunker necro :) condi necro and power necro are taking the damage traits anyways

  • CroTiger.7819CroTiger.7819 Member ✭✭✭

    Nerf hp pool of shroud on reaper and core so it fits barriers gain from scourge and is in line with 33% healing nerf with dmg reduction overall in game post patch. Shroud is not touched with healing nerf and will be pushed to hard if hp pool stays same. Definitly don t kitten recharge on shroud which you did to druid because its a killer nerf.

  • DragonFury.6243DragonFury.6243 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Jobe.8290 said:
    Removing Foot in the Grave is a strong buff to Core Necro, the Stability was useless anyways :)

    It's not a buff when you replace something "useless" by something equally "useless".

    People weren't taking FitG despite it's usefulness and they won't take eternal life either simply because there is no reason to take it at all.

    I disagree. People took FitG and they will take EL.

    people took FitG for stun break part mostly so they can free a utility slot for ( corrupt boon or spectral grasp , Spectral Ring ) and you still has three stun break and its specially good against melee class where they come close and stun you and you insta stun break into shroud and start damaging them the stab part was trivial .
    and the new Eternal Life is useless in PvP its a waste of grand-master trait when ever your life force is above 20% which is most of the time it best value is the first 30 sec of the game when its useful to start the fight with 20% life force after that any good necro will stuck-up on life force from down enemies for their next fight + dead enemy give 10% life force so its useless when you win .
    from the warding of the new skill its most likely be 3-5 % life force per sec while under 20% life force so during fight after going out side of shroud you need to hold off life generation skills for couple of sec in order to take value of the new trait which is bad .
    best scenario for the new trait is when you die with 0 % life force which is rare personal when i know i will die i spam life force generation skills and let the enemy kill me so i start next fight with enough life force .

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2020

    @DragonFury.6243 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Jobe.8290 said:
    Removing Foot in the Grave is a strong buff to Core Necro, the Stability was useless anyways :)

    It's not a buff when you replace something "useless" by something equally "useless".

    People weren't taking FitG despite it's usefulness and they won't take eternal life either simply because there is no reason to take it at all.

    I disagree. People took FitG and they will take EL.

    the new Eternal Life is useless in PvP

    Again going to disagree.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @CroTiger.7819 said:
    Nerf hp pool of shroud on reaper and core so it fits barriers gain from scourge and is in line with 33% healing nerf with dmg reduction overall in game post patch. Shroud is not touched with healing nerf and will be pushed to hard if hp pool stays same. Definitly don t kitten recharge on shroud which you did to druid because its a killer nerf.

    Considering shroud has had the same value when the game had much less damage , CC, healing and gimmicks I don't see why the values should be reduced. The only thing that may need to be lowered is generation.

  • DragonFury.6243DragonFury.6243 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @DragonFury.6243 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Jobe.8290 said:
    Removing Foot in the Grave is a strong buff to Core Necro, the Stability was useless anyways :)

    It's not a buff when you replace something "useless" by something equally "useless".

    People weren't taking FitG despite it's usefulness and they won't take eternal life either simply because there is no reason to take it at all.

    I disagree. People took FitG and they will take EL.

    the new Eternal Life is useless in PvP

    Again going to disagree.

    i listed all scenarios possible to benefit from the trait which is most benefit at the start of the game and when you die at o% life force which is less than 5% of the game duration .
    and trivial benefit after exiting shroud when fighting .
    that is good for adapt trait maybe not grand-master trait with the dmg trait you will benefit from extra dmg while in shroud which will be 30-35% of game duration .

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DragonFury.6243 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @DragonFury.6243 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Jobe.8290 said:
    Removing Foot in the Grave is a strong buff to Core Necro, the Stability was useless anyways :)

    It's not a buff when you replace something "useless" by something equally "useless".

    People weren't taking FitG despite it's usefulness and they won't take eternal life either simply because there is no reason to take it at all.

    I disagree. People took FitG and they will take EL.

    the new Eternal Life is useless in PvP

    Again going to disagree.

    i listed all scenarios possible to benefit from the trait which is most benefit at the start of the game and when you die at o% life force which is less than 5% of the game duration .
    and trivial benefit after exiting shroud when fighting .
    that is good for adapt trait maybe not grand-master trait with the dmg trait you will benefit from extra dmg while in shroud which will be 30-35% of game duration .

    This is your opinion but I see far more value in it which is why I disagree. Its going to be used in some interesting builds.

  • Jobe.8290Jobe.8290 Member ✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Jobe.8290 said:
    Removing Foot in the Grave is a strong buff to Core Necro, the Stability was useless anyways :)

    It's not a buff when you replace something "useless" by something equally "useless".

    People weren't taking FitG despite it's usefulness and they won't take eternal life either simply because there is no reason to take it at all. Some people seem to think that eternal life will grant 20% LF whenever you leave the shroud, It most likely won't. In the end the trait will just be perceived as a trait that give prot when entering shroud and players will simply discard the idea of taking it when they can take free 30% crit chance and more crit damage.

    Its not equally "useless", so its a buff for bunker necro :)

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jobe.8290 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Jobe.8290 said:
    Removing Foot in the Grave is a strong buff to Core Necro, the Stability was useless anyways :)

    It's not a buff when you replace something "useless" by something equally "useless".

    People weren't taking FitG despite it's usefulness and they won't take eternal life either simply because there is no reason to take it at all. Some people seem to think that eternal life will grant 20% LF whenever you leave the shroud, It most likely won't. In the end the trait will just be perceived as a trait that give prot when entering shroud and players will simply discard the idea of taking it when they can take free 30% crit chance and more crit damage.

    Its not equally "useless", so its a buff for bunker necro :)

    Well, if you assume that 20% LF is hard to get in 9 seconds, sure you can say it's a buff... As for protection, ANet have flooded the necromancer with protection to the point that you have to try hard to not have protection... DM even give you an option for perma prot that isn't even touched in the patch note. FitG at least gave the necromancer something to face it's hard counter, eternal life plainly give to the necromancer something that he already is overflowing with.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Jobe.8290 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Jobe.8290 said:
    Removing Foot in the Grave is a strong buff to Core Necro, the Stability was useless anyways :)

    It's not a buff when you replace something "useless" by something equally "useless".

    People weren't taking FitG despite it's usefulness and they won't take eternal life either simply because there is no reason to take it at all. Some people seem to think that eternal life will grant 20% LF whenever you leave the shroud, It most likely won't. In the end the trait will just be perceived as a trait that give prot when entering shroud and players will simply discard the idea of taking it when they can take free 30% crit chance and more crit damage.

    Its not equally "useless", so its a buff for bunker necro :)

    eternal life plainly give to the necromancer something that he already is overflowing with.

    I wouldn't say necro is overflowing with protection but I feel you're only looking at it as being protection rather than where the protection is coming from. It opens up different choices since you can shift where the opportunity cost for gaining protection is coming from.

  • ZeftheWicked.3076ZeftheWicked.3076 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Lol bunker core necro..

    laying down on the ground getting pounded by 5s cc chain and whole enemy team

    "This patch is awesome, look how manly i take my beating!"

  • Jobe.8290Jobe.8290 Member ✭✭

    @ZeftheWicked.3076 said:
    Lol bunker core necro..

    laying down on the ground getting pounded by 5s cc chain and whole enemy team

    "This patch is awesome, look how manly i take my beating!"

    Not all bunker necros are facetanking

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jobe.8290 said:

    @ZeftheWicked.3076 said:
    Lol bunker core necro..

    laying down on the ground getting pounded by 5s cc chain and whole enemy team

    "This patch is awesome, look how manly i take my beating!"

    Not all bunker necros are facetanking

    only the bad ones :D

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2020

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:
    Core necro shroud functionality was nerfed. They put a cast time and 660ms reaction on Doom. That's 100% a functionality nerf.

    Life Blast and Life Transfer got the blanket coefficient nerfs, however I wouldn't be against Tainted Shackles and Dark Path receiving the same treatment as every other skill, then I think everything would be fine.

    I mean the LF total pool in conjunction with how much LF they can generate in very short durations of time. That stuff is directly tied to the idea of "sustain factor" just as much as healing stat is.

    Can you elaborate on "Life force generated in a short amount of time?"
    How much is too much in a short amount of time and what amount of time to you qualifies as a short amount of time?

    I dont agree on the healing stat part though sorry.

    Do you not pay attention when you are against good Core Necros? You can bottom out a LF bar and then 9s later the Necro pops shroud at 100% again. there literally isn't anything that could qualify as "faster or in a shorter amount of time" than that.

    Trevor I main a necro thats why im asking you what you think is too much too fast. And going forward its going to be a profession with very minimal active defense, super limited boon self boon table, almost no stability, and low mobility. So before you go screaming at life force gain which is used to power its soft defense and its most offensive abilities i want to here what you really have to say vs professions that all had things that necromancer did not and why you seem to think that necro deserves to be nerfed more despite having less from the start. Im not sure you understand that the balancing in this patch is not meant to be equal. Some professions as we were basically told right from the start were going to be nerfed more than others because respectively because they were mechanically superior than the others which makes sense.

    Core necros generally do not go from 0 to 100% in 9s that simply does not happen especially without spectral armor or spectral grab landing and multiple people hitting them. Not to mention half if not most of all their active life force building tools can be dodged / avoided as most of them are tied to burst skills like axe 2 / scepter 3 / staff marks, spectra grasp etc.

    There might be 1 particular core build i can think of that has very very high life force generation but at the same time its core necromancer. and is forced to make some heavy trades in its traits for obtaining such high life force generation. As far as most core builds are concerned the best thing it has going for it is boon corruption which is whats keeping it viable and why people are playing it in the boon soaked meta. Boon corruption is being nerfed and boons are being nerfed so its effectiveness is not going to be as strong as it is now. Scourge is unplayable in solo situations so people moved to core because it is the only other boon hate option. Lets not pretend like core suddenly got massive buffs and became major over night because thats not what happened or why people bother to play it.

    I guess the problem that I was trying to point out in this thread is that the LF % gains that Necros get for generation, are completely separate from the actual damage they deal. So even if a Necro attack deals barely any damage at all, if the tooltip says "This skill grants 15% LF" it will refill that LF bar by 15% of its total, when that low damage attack is used. <- This is insane to allow to stay this way in an upcoming patch that is supposed to address over buffed sustain tools game wide. The LF bar is health. I see people posting in here who seem to be wanting to work around that fact, but the LF is a health bar, and it is able to be regenerated to full in 9s over and over again. <- And this is something that is STRONGER while wearing things like Carrion/Rune of Speed, that grant a ton of vitality. Heal stat isn't advantageous for Core Necro, Vitality it is.

    Well if shroud was only a sustain tool i might agree with some of this but its not. Its also most of necromancers offensive power as in some builds half their traits at any given time are not even active outside of shroud. Its both an offensive and defensive tool.

    No skill alone generates 15% life force just to be clear. (im pretty sure you are just making an example though)
    Fear of death (a trait) gives 15% life force when you apply a fear which can be dodged or out right denied depending on how the fear was applied if the target had stability or not. Now have you considered that part of that insane life force gain from the Fear of death trait comes from almost ever other class having so much stability access and necro punishing that boon as they should be attempting to?
    At best case the biggest life force skill combo that you can make is Reapers Mark + Fear of death triggering which is 18% on a successful Fear. and that mark is on a 32s cd.
    Scepter 3 is a burst skill that gives about 8% maybe a bit more if you run the scepter trait and land it on multiple people i think its 2% per extra target.
    Axe 2 gives between 8-12% if all the strikes land which can be dodged to deny
    Dagger has no life force gain other than on its auto attacks which are super weak and risky to go for.

    When you say "weak skills that don't do any damage" which are you speaking of? I'm not sure how you are referencing that. Do you mean all necromancer skills are weak from your perspective or that a skills like axe 2 and scepter 3 are so weak that you dont consider them proper dps attacks worthy of generating life force despite them being some of the most offensive weapon skills outside of shroud that necro has to offer? I'm really struggling to understand you here. Does this also mean that all skills should be generating life force instead based on how much out going damage the skill is doing? If skills like Axe skill 2 and Scepter 3 are seen as weak to you when they are some of the hardest hitting skills necro has outside of its shroud what do you really want to do here?

    Truth is most skills (in pvp settings) actually do not generate enough LF which is why more passive options where added in the first place like Signet Undeath/Fear of Death etc. If a necromancer goes from 0% to 100% in 9 seconds you made some critical errors in that fight or it took more than 9 seconds. Going forward spectral armor should be considered just as punishing as hitting another player with an aura on them as each hit every second from each individual grants the necromancer like 8 to 8.8% (depending on traits) life force or something like that. Simply don't hit them to deny them the life force gain then punish after. People use to have to do this before damage got out of hand then they forgot about it because it didn't matter anymore.

    Guys, this is already tanky in 1v1s NOW with very high DPS. When the DPS literally "drops through the floor to half of what it is now" it will be impossible to kill a good Necro 1v1. Even if you can do it over the course of time, it won't be worth the time wasted during a conquest match. And INB4 this "but CCs but CCs" that's the most hopeful apathetic thing I've heard in a very long time in this forum. What good is CC training a friggin 28k health death shroud with protection & carapace stacks on it, when you aren't dealing damage while doing it? At that point the Necro doesn't NEED stability because even if he gets Bull's Charged for 0 damage, he'll only eat 1 follow up attack and then be on his feet to move again. By the time 1 or 2 people are actually able to deal enough damage to a 28k protection/carapace Death Shroud to bottom it out, or by the time they wait it out, it will have been long enough to where all of those Shroud regeneration skills are ALL off CD again.

    You consider core carrion high dps? Does it kill you near instantly? Or do you have a long period of time to fight it? Necro has some of the slowest condition ramp in the game truthfully those days left with condi reaper and scourge its never going to instantly stack 20+ bleeds or 20+ torment on you like some other professions can do. The only quick ramp that could possibly be in this setup would be Fear dealing damage (which is where the majority of the damage comes form in those kinds of builds). If you are boon spamming and getting punished for it then that means you are too dependent on boons. With boons and corrupts being more rare you can and should expect less fears from boon corruptions and doom will be dodgeable due it having just over half a second tell before it strikes.

    The point of locking a necro down with cc is so it cant use its skills even in shroud if its cc'ed it cant attack you. It also cannot break the stuns unless it exits shroud (its safest and most offensive form) to use a break stun as they do not have utility access in shroud. Many necromancer builds depend on their ability to attack their foes if you stop them from attacking then you ideally can shut them down. A good example of this is reaper with blighters boon. If you stop them from attacking they wont gain any might because they are not hitting anything or swinging their weapon which stops the incoming healing bonus from blighter boon.

    Secondly

    It's going to be a situation where if a player or players cannot kill the Necro during his 9s vulnerability phase in between Shroud cycles, welp gg. Because that's going to be the only kill opportunity you'll get on it at all. Trying to pummel at & bottom out the Death Shroud is going to become a great way to find yourself losing to attrition.

    Yeah thats generally always been a thing and this is how the game use to be before everyone's damage gout out of hand. I think you might want to start practicing how to bust a necro when they drop shroud vs just bursting them at any time because over tuned dps allows that right now.

    Ive ran tank builds before and you know how people beat me on them by slowly learning when to properly go for a burst and when not to. The first few times they go for burst at any time because they can. They think its normal necro and that they can burst it at any point willy nilly. If they think they usually figure out to go for burst after shroud drops.

    And I love this "But it doesn't have stability" as if it didn't have triple stun break utility bar, an elite that grants it stability, and a bunch of boon rips to remove opponent stability & convert it into Fear, in conjunction with a roster of heavy AoE Fear CC that keeps people away from it to begin with.

    Thats interesting because....
    Rangers run these kinds of triple breakstun setups with EVADES Skills, AND BLOCKS, AND STEALTH ACCESS, AND STABILITY! HIGH MOBILITY AND A WIDER BOON TABLE!!!???
    I dont understand why you think its fair to even call this out. We run double or triple breakstuns on our bars because "we have to!" other wise we are free! Spectral mastery was also removed some time ago along with our only passive stun break when the complaints of everyone has too many passive "get out of jail free cards" which is why necro did not get a nerf to any passive that would auto break stun or deny a cc on incoming cc application because we dont have any of those things anymore. We have 2 dodges at any given time and no instant/immediate vigor access and no traits to regenerate endurance faster so take what you will from that. Also most builds run 2 break stuns on their bar not three usually corrupt boon or spectral ring fills one of those slots >.>other wise you dont have enough boon hate to deal with people instantly replenishing their boons.

    I'm just saying, it might not be able beat you up and kill you real easily, but you won't be able to get a Core Necro off a node 1v1 after this patch. You'd need something built for it like a Decap Engi abusing the hell out of Throw Land Mine or a Ventari Rev. I'm telling you, this Core Necro side node will drive the meta in the same way Fire Weaver drove meta. People will have to resort to other methods outside of DPS to be able to deal with impending Core Necro Side Node. That or ignore it and only ever engage it if 2v1.

    Im pretty sure if people take proper cc they can force it off a node. Its also not right to assume that every necro will be that tanky most people likely will still perfer more offensive builds. Not to mention Unlike weaver necro does not have evades and stability. Or insane pulsating damage that loads you up with 12 burn stacks in a few seconds It should be far easier to literally push them off the node.

    Maybe a good idea to lower the LF regen from these skills in a pvp/wvw split, or reduce the total LF health bar in pvp/wvw on Core Necro. Mind you I am only speaking of Core Necro. I feel that Reaper/Scourge will find a good balance point post patch. Core Necro Shroud's fuel tank is just way way way to deep at this point though, and it's going to show post patch.

    You need to be specific with which skills because any skills you cut back at a core level directly effects reaper and scourge lowering their potential too.
    Even staff has 0% life force gain on its marks unless you take a trait and its suppose to be a utility weapon with the ideal goal of generating LF. But it fails to do that without a trait.

    Overall if life force needs to be reduced a bit after the patch im all for it but not on the weapon skills as that hurts every elite in in necros options.
    At best the passive gain tools can be revisited like Signet of Undeath / Fear of death.

    If a trait like Eternal Life had been baked into necromancer's core design without the need of having to take a trait for it then we wouldn't have needed the increases to things like Fear of death and Signet of undeath in the first place.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Jobe.8290 said:
    Removing Foot in the Grave is a strong buff to Core Necro, the Stability was useless anyways :)

    It's not a buff when you replace something "useless" by something equally "useless".

    People weren't taking FitG despite it's usefulness and they won't take eternal life either simply because there is no reason to take it at all. Some people seem to think that eternal life will grant 20% LF whenever you leave the shroud, It most likely won't. In the end the trait will just be perceived as a trait that give prot when entering shroud and players will simply discard the idea of taking it when they can take free 30% crit chance and more crit damage.

    Dadnir is some what correct here >.> this time...
    Foot in the grave was a very niche trait that most people did not use a few times i have used it and rarely i see other people use it but its like a 3 people for every 10 necros thats about how often i see it. Ideally Eternal life has more value than foot in the grave did depending on what mode you play. In pvp it certainly has some value as you can now start matches not on 0% life force which could totally change how you load out your utility bar by 1 or 2 slots on your build. Having some life force to start in a match vs having none is likely going to change things.

    Even now one of my life force starved builds that i like to play but usually does not because its so starved on life force generation can make more use of this trait than it could foot in the grave so it has a bit more use imo. But I still consider the loss of the breakstun fuction on shroud entry combined with the nerf to doom and increase to some break stuns an overall nerf not a buff.

    Necro is getting a buff in the sense that the gap between damage soaking and damage evasion is getting smaller.
    That comes from how everyone else is changed not so much how necro has changed.

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2020

    Core necro does not have one single source of stability and lost its shroud entering stunbreak.

    The meta build is left with no mobility, two dodges and one stunbreak (which got a cooldown nerf).

    If anything becomes meta then "Let's kick that core necro punching bag around".

    It will be worse than in the rifle cc engineer meta 6 or 7 years ago.

    Now at least that core can enjoy the pummeling for a higher duration.

    Side note: a ranger main that can simply push the necro off the node with longbow complaining here caused a good laugh!

    Side note 2: balancing goal for anet: "necro, a stability lacking resilent profession" - 100% achieved!

    Side note 3: signet of vampirism is not bugged when traited. It is recharged after 14 seconds in shroud, when you enter shroud right after casting it. Math: 30s cooldown - 14s - 14x4% = 56% = 16s ... 14 + 16 = 30.

  • @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    ^ Title

    • Negative 33% damage game wide
    • Hard CCs going to 0 damage output
    • Quickness access/uptime being massively reduced, leading into far less DPS potential upon even the above nerfs
    • Healing game wide -33%
    • Core Necro Shroud mechanics untouched

    If you thought Core Necro was tanky now, put your seatbelt on and prepare yourselves for nearly invulnerable Fear Decapping Core Necro Bunkers.

    If this is not addressed before the patch drops, we'll see QQ in the forums on this topic, like an avalanche coming down a mountain.

    I honestly don't think you need to worry. While necro may become tankier than it is now (which that isn't very tanky in the current meta with teams that know what to do), it wont become a cancer bunker like some of the bunkers in previous meta. It doesn't have stability or heavy team support. No vigor access/spam dodge ability.

    You also have to keep in mind that necro is taking some nerfs too. Doom (core shroud fear) is getting a cast time. If you miss that, its a huge amount of LF loss which helps tank in shroud. Necro boon rip and damage Is also getting hit. So even if core is tankier, how impactful will the build be in a team comp?

    Long story short, I would wait to see how the patch plays as a whole before asking for nerfs. If it needs to be tuned a little bit, so be it. I just don't see it being a problem like you think it will be.

    Experience: I've played necro on and off at the highest level of pvp since closed beta.

    Zombify
    Twitch.tv/TheZombify

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Do you not pay attention when you are against good Core Necros? You can bottom out a LF bar and then 9s later the Necro pops shroud at 100% again.

    what lol? build pls

    Simple

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:
    Core necro shroud functionality was nerfed. They put a cast time and 660ms reaction on Doom. That's 100% a functionality nerf.

    Life Blast and Life Transfer got the blanket coefficient nerfs, however I wouldn't be against Tainted Shackles and Dark Path receiving the same treatment as every other skill, then I think everything would be fine.

    I mean the LF total pool in conjunction with how much LF they can generate in very short durations of time. That stuff is directly tied to the idea of "sustain factor" just as much as healing stat is.

    Can you elaborate on "Life force generated in a short amount of time?"
    How much is too much in a short amount of time and what amount of time to you qualifies as a short amount of time?

    I dont agree on the healing stat part though sorry.

    Do you not pay attention when you are against good Core Necros? You can bottom out a LF bar and then 9s later the Necro pops shroud at 100% again. there literally isn't anything that could qualify as "faster or in a shorter amount of time" than that.

    I guess the problem that I was trying to point out in this thread is that the LF % gains that Necros get for generation, are completely separate from the actual damage they deal. So even if a Necro attack deals barely any damage at all, if the tooltip says "This skill grants 15% LF" it will refill that LF bar by 15% of its total, when that low damage attack is used. <- This is insane to allow to stay this way in an upcoming patch that is supposed to address overbuffed sustain tools game wide. The LF bar is health. I see people posting in here who seem to be wanting to work around that fact, but the LF is a health bar, and it is able to be regenerated to full in 9s over and over again. <- And this is something that is STRONGER while wearing things like Carrion/Rune of Speed, that grant a ton of vitality. Heal stat isn't advantageous for Core Necro, Vitality it is.

    Guys, this is already tanky in 1v1s NOW with very high DPS. When the DPS literally "drops through the floor to half of what it is now" it will be impossible to kill a good Necro 1v1. Even if you can do it over the course of time, it won't be worth the time wasted during a conquest match. And INB4 this "but CCs but CCs" that's the most hopeful apathetic thing I've heard in a very long time in this forum. What good is CC training a friggin 28k health death shroud with protection & carapace stacks on it, when you aren't dealing damage while doing it? At that point the Necro doesn't NEED stability because even if he gets Bull's Charged for 0 damage, he'll only eat 1 follow up attack and then be on his feet to move again. By the 1 or 2 people are actually able to deal enough damage to a 28k protection/carapace Death Shroud to bottom it out, or by the time they wait it out, it will have been long enough to where all of those Shroud regeneration skills are ALL off CD again. It's going to be a situation where if a player or players cannot kill the Necro during his 9s vulnerability phase in between Shroud cycles, welp gg. Because that's going to be the only kill opportunity you'll get on it at all. Trying to pummel at & bottom out the Death Shroud is going to become a great way to find yourself losing to attrition.

    And I love this "But it doesn't have stability" as if it didn't have triple stun break utility bar, an elite that grants it stability, and a bunch of boon rips to remove opponent stability & convert it into Fear, in conjunction with a roster of heavy AoE Fear CC that keeps people away from it to begin with.

    I'm just saying, it might not be able beat you up and kill you real easily, but you won't be able to get a Core Necro off a node 1v1 after this patch. You'd need something built for it like a Decap Engi abusing the hell out of Throw Land Mine or a Ventari Rev. I'm telling you, this Core Necro side node will drive the meta in the same way Fire Weaver drove meta. People will have to resort to other methods outside of DPS to be able to deal with impending Core Necro Side Node. That or ignore it and only ever engage it if 2v1.

    Maybe a good idea to lower the LF regen from these skills in a pvp/wvw split, or reduce the total LF health bar in pvp/wvw on Core Necro. Mind you I am only speaking of Core Necro. I feel that Reaper/Scourge will find a good balance point post patch. Core Necro Shroud's fuel tank is just way way way to deep at this point though, and it's going to show post patch.

    This is true example if u take signet traited u can 1.) get full shroud super fast 2.) regenerate shroud faster than u lose it(like what) 3.) u have an instant Rez that btw is bugged so that after 5 secs in shroud it comes back fully recharged. Necro is starting to look nutty with all the reworks and patches

    Signet and possibly some attacks that generate lf can get you full shroud in about 9 secs.

    Just to point out the most LF you will get from the signet in 9s is 24%. This still leaves over 3/4 of your of to gain other ways.

    Also even with the desired signet LF degen is always a met negative. Drops to average 1% on core and 3% on reaper.

    Also how is the signet bugged? It causes ever signet to recharge in 13~20s.

    I mean its design is to win through attrition and it will actually be able to fill its niche.

    Dude it’s well known bug for cd reduction on signet due to the fact they kept the old cd for reduction with a new lower duration and I think ur also underestimating signet when it’s traited

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2020

    Edit: Not going to bother.

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2020

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Do you not pay attention when you are against good Core Necros? You can bottom out a LF bar and then 9s later the Necro pops shroud at 100% again.

    what lol? build pls

    Simple

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:
    Core necro shroud functionality was nerfed. They put a cast time and 660ms reaction on Doom. That's 100% a functionality nerf.

    Life Blast and Life Transfer got the blanket coefficient nerfs, however I wouldn't be against Tainted Shackles and Dark Path receiving the same treatment as every other skill, then I think everything would be fine.

    I mean the LF total pool in conjunction with how much LF they can generate in very short durations of time. That stuff is directly tied to the idea of "sustain factor" just as much as healing stat is.

    Can you elaborate on "Life force generated in a short amount of time?"
    How much is too much in a short amount of time and what amount of time to you qualifies as a short amount of time?

    I dont agree on the healing stat part though sorry.

    Do you not pay attention when you are against good Core Necros? You can bottom out a LF bar and then 9s later the Necro pops shroud at 100% again. there literally isn't anything that could qualify as "faster or in a shorter amount of time" than that.

    I guess the problem that I was trying to point out in this thread is that the LF % gains that Necros get for generation, are completely separate from the actual damage they deal. So even if a Necro attack deals barely any damage at all, if the tooltip says "This skill grants 15% LF" it will refill that LF bar by 15% of its total, when that low damage attack is used. <- This is insane to allow to stay this way in an upcoming patch that is supposed to address overbuffed sustain tools game wide. The LF bar is health. I see people posting in here who seem to be wanting to work around that fact, but the LF is a health bar, and it is able to be regenerated to full in 9s over and over again. <- And this is something that is STRONGER while wearing things like Carrion/Rune of Speed, that grant a ton of vitality. Heal stat isn't advantageous for Core Necro, Vitality it is.

    Guys, this is already tanky in 1v1s NOW with very high DPS. When the DPS literally "drops through the floor to half of what it is now" it will be impossible to kill a good Necro 1v1. Even if you can do it over the course of time, it won't be worth the time wasted during a conquest match. And INB4 this "but CCs but CCs" that's the most hopeful apathetic thing I've heard in a very long time in this forum. What good is CC training a friggin 28k health death shroud with protection & carapace stacks on it, when you aren't dealing damage while doing it? At that point the Necro doesn't NEED stability because even if he gets Bull's Charged for 0 damage, he'll only eat 1 follow up attack and then be on his feet to move again. By the 1 or 2 people are actually able to deal enough damage to a 28k protection/carapace Death Shroud to bottom it out, or by the time they wait it out, it will have been long enough to where all of those Shroud regeneration skills are ALL off CD again. It's going to be a situation where if a player or players cannot kill the Necro during his 9s vulnerability phase in between Shroud cycles, welp gg. Because that's going to be the only kill opportunity you'll get on it at all. Trying to pummel at & bottom out the Death Shroud is going to become a great way to find yourself losing to attrition.

    And I love this "But it doesn't have stability" as if it didn't have triple stun break utility bar, an elite that grants it stability, and a bunch of boon rips to remove opponent stability & convert it into Fear, in conjunction with a roster of heavy AoE Fear CC that keeps people away from it to begin with.

    I'm just saying, it might not be able beat you up and kill you real easily, but you won't be able to get a Core Necro off a node 1v1 after this patch. You'd need something built for it like a Decap Engi abusing the hell out of Throw Land Mine or a Ventari Rev. I'm telling you, this Core Necro side node will drive the meta in the same way Fire Weaver drove meta. People will have to resort to other methods outside of DPS to be able to deal with impending Core Necro Side Node. That or ignore it and only ever engage it if 2v1.

    Maybe a good idea to lower the LF regen from these skills in a pvp/wvw split, or reduce the total LF health bar in pvp/wvw on Core Necro. Mind you I am only speaking of Core Necro. I feel that Reaper/Scourge will find a good balance point post patch. Core Necro Shroud's fuel tank is just way way way to deep at this point though, and it's going to show post patch.

    This is true example if u take signet traited u can 1.) get full shroud super fast 2.) regenerate shroud faster than u lose it(like what) 3.) u have an instant Rez that btw is bugged so that after 5 secs in shroud it comes back fully recharged. Necro is starting to look nutty with all the reworks and patches

    Signet and possibly some attacks that generate lf can get you full shroud in about 9 secs.

    Just to point out the most LF you will get from the signet in 9s is 24%. This still leaves over 3/4 of your of to gain other ways.

    Also even with the desired signet LF degen is always a met negative. Drops to average 1% on core and 3% on reaper.

    Also how is the signet bugged? It causes ever signet to recharge in 13~20s.

    I mean its design is to win through attrition and it will actually be able to fill its niche.

    Dude it’s well known bug for cd reduction on signet due to the fact they kept the old cd for reduction with a new lower duration and I think ur also underestimating signet when it’s traited

    I can not reproduce that bug. The 30s cooldown signets recharge in ~14s, the 60s signet in ~17s and the 75s signet in ~19s.

    And keep in mind that the signets add sustain only in terms of damage soaking capability for the use of one gm trait, the heal and a utility slot. That's a lot of effort for the benefit. A signet build is low on utility and a sitting duck when focused.

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2020

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    ^ Title

    • Negative 33% damage game wide
    • Hard CCs going to 0 damage output
    • Quickness access/uptime being massively reduced, leading into far less DPS potential upon even the above nerfs
    • Healing game wide -33%
    • Core Necro Shroud mechanics untouched

    If you thought Core Necro was tanky now, put your seatbelt on and prepare yourselves for nearly invulnerable Fear Decapping Core Necro Bunkers.

    If this is not addressed before the patch drops, we'll see QQ in the forums on this topic, like an avalanche coming down a mountain.

    In other word; Necromancer Profession deserves to be incapable, defenseless, alone

    we were never good enough, never was...being everyone's punching bag....end up hurting all over again

    'Situations that are present are there because you allow and tolerate them to continue'

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Do you not pay attention when you are against good Core Necros? You can bottom out a LF bar and then 9s later the Necro pops shroud at 100% again.

    what lol? build pls

    Simple

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:
    Core necro shroud functionality was nerfed. They put a cast time and 660ms reaction on Doom. That's 100% a functionality nerf.

    Life Blast and Life Transfer got the blanket coefficient nerfs, however I wouldn't be against Tainted Shackles and Dark Path receiving the same treatment as every other skill, then I think everything would be fine.

    I mean the LF total pool in conjunction with how much LF they can generate in very short durations of time. That stuff is directly tied to the idea of "sustain factor" just as much as healing stat is.

    Can you elaborate on "Life force generated in a short amount of time?"
    How much is too much in a short amount of time and what amount of time to you qualifies as a short amount of time?

    I dont agree on the healing stat part though sorry.

    Do you not pay attention when you are against good Core Necros? You can bottom out a LF bar and then 9s later the Necro pops shroud at 100% again. there literally isn't anything that could qualify as "faster or in a shorter amount of time" than that.

    I guess the problem that I was trying to point out in this thread is that the LF % gains that Necros get for generation, are completely separate from the actual damage they deal. So even if a Necro attack deals barely any damage at all, if the tooltip says "This skill grants 15% LF" it will refill that LF bar by 15% of its total, when that low damage attack is used. <- This is insane to allow to stay this way in an upcoming patch that is supposed to address overbuffed sustain tools game wide. The LF bar is health. I see people posting in here who seem to be wanting to work around that fact, but the LF is a health bar, and it is able to be regenerated to full in 9s over and over again. <- And this is something that is STRONGER while wearing things like Carrion/Rune of Speed, that grant a ton of vitality. Heal stat isn't advantageous for Core Necro, Vitality it is.

    Guys, this is already tanky in 1v1s NOW with very high DPS. When the DPS literally "drops through the floor to half of what it is now" it will be impossible to kill a good Necro 1v1. Even if you can do it over the course of time, it won't be worth the time wasted during a conquest match. And INB4 this "but CCs but CCs" that's the most hopeful apathetic thing I've heard in a very long time in this forum. What good is CC training a friggin 28k health death shroud with protection & carapace stacks on it, when you aren't dealing damage while doing it? At that point the Necro doesn't NEED stability because even if he gets Bull's Charged for 0 damage, he'll only eat 1 follow up attack and then be on his feet to move again. By the 1 or 2 people are actually able to deal enough damage to a 28k protection/carapace Death Shroud to bottom it out, or by the time they wait it out, it will have been long enough to where all of those Shroud regeneration skills are ALL off CD again. It's going to be a situation where if a player or players cannot kill the Necro during his 9s vulnerability phase in between Shroud cycles, welp gg. Because that's going to be the only kill opportunity you'll get on it at all. Trying to pummel at & bottom out the Death Shroud is going to become a great way to find yourself losing to attrition.

    And I love this "But it doesn't have stability" as if it didn't have triple stun break utility bar, an elite that grants it stability, and a bunch of boon rips to remove opponent stability & convert it into Fear, in conjunction with a roster of heavy AoE Fear CC that keeps people away from it to begin with.

    I'm just saying, it might not be able beat you up and kill you real easily, but you won't be able to get a Core Necro off a node 1v1 after this patch. You'd need something built for it like a Decap Engi abusing the hell out of Throw Land Mine or a Ventari Rev. I'm telling you, this Core Necro side node will drive the meta in the same way Fire Weaver drove meta. People will have to resort to other methods outside of DPS to be able to deal with impending Core Necro Side Node. That or ignore it and only ever engage it if 2v1.

    Maybe a good idea to lower the LF regen from these skills in a pvp/wvw split, or reduce the total LF health bar in pvp/wvw on Core Necro. Mind you I am only speaking of Core Necro. I feel that Reaper/Scourge will find a good balance point post patch. Core Necro Shroud's fuel tank is just way way way to deep at this point though, and it's going to show post patch.

    This is true example if u take signet traited u can 1.) get full shroud super fast 2.) regenerate shroud faster than u lose it(like what) 3.) u have an instant Rez that btw is bugged so that after 5 secs in shroud it comes back fully recharged. Necro is starting to look nutty with all the reworks and patches

    Signet and possibly some attacks that generate lf can get you full shroud in about 9 secs.

    Just to point out the most LF you will get from the signet in 9s is 24%. This still leaves over 3/4 of your of to gain other ways.

    Also even with the desired signet LF degen is always a met negative. Drops to average 1% on core and 3% on reaper.

    Also how is the signet bugged? It causes ever signet to recharge in 13~20s.

    I mean its design is to win through attrition and it will actually be able to fill its niche.

    Dude it’s well known bug for cd reduction on signet due to the fact they kept the old cd for reduction with a new lower duration and I think ur also underestimating signet when it’s traited

    I can not reproduce that bug. The 30s cooldown signets recharge in ~14s, the 60s signet in ~17s and the 75s signet in ~19s.

    And keep in mind that the signets add sustain only in terms of damage soaking capability for the use of one gm trait, the heal and a utility slot. That's a lot of effort for the benefit. A signet build is low on utility and a sitting duck when focused.

    Maybe they hit fixed it, but a few weeks ago ma friend showed me it in detail and it was all over many streams

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @KrHome.1920 said:
    Core necro does not have one single source of stability and lost its shroud entering stunbreak.

    The meta build is left with no mobility, two dodges and one stunbreak (which got a cooldown nerf).

    If anything becomes meta then "Let's kick that core necro punching bag around".

    It will be worse than in the rifle cc engineer meta 6 or 7 years ago.

    Now at least that core can enjoy the pummeling for a higher duration.

    Side note: a ranger main that can simply push the necro off the node with longbow complaining here caused a good laugh!

    Side note 2: balancing goal for anet: "necro, a stability lacking resilent profession" - 100% achieved!

    Side note 3: signet of vampirism is not bugged when traited. It is recharged after 14 seconds in shroud, when you enter shroud right after casting it. Math: 30s cooldown - 14s - 14x4% = 56% = 16s ... 14 + 16 = 30.

    Also it was never signet of vampirism that was bugged it was signet of undeath. Basically it used to on like 140sec cd and is now 75. The bug was the recharge time when traited used the old 140sec cd percentage wise- this resulted in the 75sec cd signet of undeath to recharge with something like 5-8secs in shroud. This was all over streams for awhile and abused in ranked like crazy and I’m not sure if anet fixed it, if they did I didn’t see anyone make a big deal about it

  • Bazsi.2734Bazsi.2734 Member ✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    ^ Title

    • Negative 33% damage game wide
    • Hard CCs going to 0 damage output
    • Quickness access/uptime being massively reduced, leading into far less DPS potential upon even the above nerfs
    • Healing game wide -33%
    • Core Necro Shroud mechanics untouched

    If you thought Core Necro was tanky now, put your seatbelt on and prepare yourselves for nearly invulnerable Fear Decapping Core Necro Bunkers.

    If this is not addressed before the patch drops, we'll see QQ in the forums on this topic, like an avalanche coming down a mountain.

    Time to roll necro.

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 9, 2020

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @KrHome.1920 said:
    Core necro does not have one single source of stability and lost its shroud entering stunbreak.

    The meta build is left with no mobility, two dodges and one stunbreak (which got a cooldown nerf).

    If anything becomes meta then "Let's kick that core necro punching bag around".

    It will be worse than in the rifle cc engineer meta 6 or 7 years ago.

    Now at least that core can enjoy the pummeling for a higher duration.

    Side note: a ranger main that can simply push the necro off the node with longbow complaining here caused a good laugh!

    Side note 2: balancing goal for anet: "necro, a stability lacking resilent profession" - 100% achieved!

    Side note 3: signet of vampirism is not bugged when traited. It is recharged after 14 seconds in shroud, when you enter shroud right after casting it. Math: 30s cooldown - 14s - 14x4% = 56% = 16s ... 14 + 16 = 30.

    Also it was never signet of vampirism that was bugged it was signet of undeath. Basically it used to on like 140sec cd and is now 75. The bug was the recharge time when traited used the old 140sec cd percentage wise- this resulted in the 75sec cd signet of undeath to recharge with something like 5-8secs in shroud. This was all over streams for awhile and abused in ranked like crazy and I’m not sure if anet fixed it, if they did I didn’t see anyone make a big deal about it

    Thanks. I will check that later today. The wiki page does also have a weird calculation for the signet (11.9 seconds), which is either wrong or the result of a bug.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signets_of_Suffering

    /edit: signet of undeath recharges in 11 seconds, like the wiki says. That's clearly a bug based on a wrong formula. The recharge per second in shroud should be 4 seconds (4% of 75s is 3s + that 1s the signet would regenerate anyway) and not 6.3 seconds.

  • reikken.4961reikken.4961 Member ✭✭✭

    wow tl;dr @ this discussion

    Anyway, shroud is necro's version of healing. everyone else's healing got nerfed. necro's didn't. What else is there to say?

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @reikken.4961 said:
    wow tl;dr @ this discussion

    Anyway, shroud is necro's version of healing. everyone else's healing got nerfed. necro's didn't. What else is there to say?

    TlDR ^ this makes no sense.

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 9, 2020

    @reikken.4961 said:
    wow tl;dr @ this discussion

    Anyway, shroud is necro's version of healing. everyone else's healing got nerfed. necro's didn't. What else is there to say?

    There is to say that necro lost all its burst and so couldn't deal with mobility or builds that block or evade 50% of the fight anymore if the sustain was lowered too.

    So many pros here that don't get the most obvious effects that changes will have. The answer to mobility or a high evasion/block uptime has always been burst und necro doesn't have all of that now. So it is left with durability.

    Gravedigger will crit for 5k now. Nightfall will crit for 1k now. Grasping darkness went from 4k to 0 damage. The gs5, weaponstow, gs2 combo is a joke now.

    Regarding core: that build uses carrion amulet and is a hybrid build. Scepter got tons of nerfs. Core shroud got direct damage nerfs. The fear duration trait was halved. Spectral walk has a huge 50s cooldown now.

  • aymnad.9023aymnad.9023 Member ✭✭✭

    Necro will definitly be stronger.
    I can already see 2 cores in some random teams. This is already not fun to fight but with less damage it will be so painfull.

  • reikken.4961reikken.4961 Member ✭✭✭

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    @reikken.4961 said:
    wow tl;dr @ this discussion

    Anyway, shroud is necro's version of healing. everyone else's healing got nerfed. necro's didn't. What else is there to say?

    There is to say that necro lost all its burst and so can't deal with mobility anymore.

    how's that relevant? everyone lost an equal amount of damage

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 9, 2020

    @reikken.4961 said:

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    @reikken.4961 said:
    wow tl;dr @ this discussion

    Anyway, shroud is necro's version of healing. everyone else's healing got nerfed. necro's didn't. What else is there to say?

    There is to say that necro lost all its burst and so can't deal with mobility anymore.

    how's that relevant? everyone lost an equal amount of damage

    You are obviously not understanding absolute game basics.

    If you put a class with superior damage mitigation (block, evade, mobility) against a necro and lower the healing / life force generation and damage of both equally, then what will happen? The necro will have even a harder time to win the fight because the amount of time where he is actually able to kill its target will remain the same while he will need more time to kill. So the superior damage mitigation becomes even stronger.

    Simple examples: a necro that can not oneshot, will never kill a thief. A necro that can not burst in the tiny amounts of time between the endless dragon hunter blocks and leaps, will never kill it.

    Anet is not stupid and knows that. That's why they were reluctant with sustain nerfs of necro.

    When anet starts to nerf blocks, evades, leaps, teleports and invulnerabilities, then it is time to look at the life force generation. But if they do this, then they will lower the time to kill again, what is the opposite of what they want to achieve.

  • aymnad.9023aymnad.9023 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 9, 2020

    @KrHome.1920 said:
    If you put a class with superior damage mitigation (block, evade, mobility) against a necro and lower the healing / life force generation and damage of both equally, then what will happen? The necro will have even a harder time to win the fight because the amount of time where he is actually able to kill its target will remain the same while he will need more time to kill. So the superior damage mitigation becomes even stronger.
    Simple examples: a necro that can not oneshot, will never kill a thief. A necro that can not burst in the tiny amounts of time between the endless dragon hunter blocks and leaps, will never kill it.

    What kind of example are those… Necro (or any profession for that matter) does not need to one shot to win a fight. This thread is mainly about core necro which never was about oneshoting. Also if do not worry about those "superior damage mitigation skills" since they got nerfed.

    When anet starts to nerf blocks, evades, leaps, teleports and invulnerabilities, then it is time to look at the life force generation. But if they do this, then they will lower the time to kill again, what is the opposite of what they want to achieve.

    Good news lots of those skills are impacted by the patch. So we can now look at LF right?
    Fact is still that LF got untouched. So necro capability to mitigate damage got barely changed when damage goes down.

  • all these ppl scared of core necro lol. making my day, thanks.

    Te lazla otstara.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    all these ppl scared of core necro lol. making my day, thanks.

    im scared too, I feel bad for all the necros that get trashed but if core tank necro becomes a thing it might REALLY miserable. fire weaver level of miserable if not worse lol

  • Its not only about core necro too tanky/too strong, but as its showing itself its more like water weaver 2.0 interactivenes to play as or against. Fun fun, i dont think anyone wants that, op or not.

  • @Emapudapus.1307 said:
    Its not only about core necro too tanky/too strong, but as its showing itself its more like water weaver 2.0 interactivenes to play as or against. Fun fun, i dont think anyone wants that, op or not.

    How is it like fighting a water weaver? It has 2 dodges (not counting a vigor source from somewhere)...you can still hit it even if some of the damage is soaked. That means you can still "interact" with it. A necro will never sustain as long as the current meta ele builds.

    Zombify
    Twitch.tv/TheZombify

  • SPESHAL.9106SPESHAL.9106 Member ✭✭✭

    This thread is going to be very embarrassing to some people after the patch.

    In short, there's a reason why Necros have almost always been excluded from dueling and the first target focused at the start of the match (despite not being a healer). Nothing in this patch will change that. In fact, it will make things worse for necros as being the primary focus target. They are BY FAR the profession with the least abilities to deal with more than 1 opponent as they aren't even suited for duels.

    I can politely explain in more detail.

    The problem is that they created a profession with theoretically a super high delta in performance, but they consistently nerf the high performance aspect without mitigating the super low delta in performance. It's all related to too much reliance on LF.

    Let's talk about the "low delta" first. It's so much lower for a Necro versus every other profession. In fact, in the history of MMOs...no class/profession is weaker than a Necro without LF. If a necro doesn't have LF, it has almost no defenses...many talents/abilities aren't even available, so it drops their viability to a fraction of what others experience without their "resources". It's why they are far and away (and have always been) the primary focus target in sPvP and can be farmed at the spawn unlike others.

    On an related note, some professions like mesmers don't even have a resource to manage which unsurprisingly is why they have been problematic in PvP balance. Everytime you nerf one thing with Mesmer, you find that they have something just as strong elsewhere because they never get to the core issue of giving mesmers no real resources to manage to create a super "low delta" in performance.

    Getting back to necros. They also gave them abilities with long cast times, long cooldowns, and some things even damage themselves if they use. On top of all that, the primary means for generating LF is going into combat AND getting hit. There are no scaling defenses like blocks, immunities, or evades. No vigor or insta escapes on short cooldowns...no stealth...limited mobility...AND...they are given cloth to wear.

    The only mitigation they have is extra health, but that doesn't scale against a zerg which makes them difficult to balance.

    You would think that because a Necro without LF is so weak and so poor against a zerg, that they would be great 1v1...but they nerfed the high performance delta of a necro to equal no better than others and even worse than many. Even a necro with full LF and not facing a zerg will have problems against most professions and that's why they can't even excel in duels.

    Thus, Anet created a profession that by design has the lowest floor in performance, yet didn't give them the highest ceiling. If you think any of the patch will change the core issues that keep Necros unable to duel and unable to withstand a zerg, it won't. The reliance on LF has only INCREASED with less stability...less stun breaks...longer cooldown on spectral skills...cast time on the one defense (fear).

    In short...you don't have to believe me or my logic. See for yourself. If you think any other profession will be targeted more at the start of a match, then you're just going to be embarrassed very soon. When one profession is targeted more than other by a large margin, it tells you all you need to know.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Guys, stop talking about the Necro damage and killing opponents, which is moot to my point made.

    What I was saying is that it won't need to kill opponents while it tanks perpetually on a node and fears people off constantly for decap.

    It's just going to be another situation that is as obnoxious as it could possibly be, similar to old-school engi decap or ventari tablet bunkers.

    This has nothing to do with if the Necromancer can kill you or not.

  • felix.2386felix.2386 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 9, 2020

    @reikken.4961 said:
    wow tl;dr @ this discussion

    Anyway, shroud is necro's version of healing. everyone else's healing got nerfed. necro's didn't. What else is there to say?

    HP values and armor value aren't changed either....
    any way they nerfed sustain of necro via traits/skills just like everybody else, if they going to shave necro's pseudo HP then they may as well start looking at HP and armor, i would love to see all armor/hp shaved by 30% LOL it's gonna be funny, but that would probably defeat the propose of this patch, welp

    warrior has been unplayable in pvp
    for 6 months till now

    good job balance team

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 10, 2020

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    It's just going to be another situation that is as obnoxious as it could possibly be, similar to old-school engi decap or ventari tablet bunkers.

    dood LOL. fear comes no where close to that. you're trippin mega balls.

    Te lazla otstara.