Za Shaloc.3908

I was half-joking in my last post, but if I'm being serious I do admittedly understand the OP's frustrations. I'm a long time Ventari player, and the changes from the patch are noticeable, specifically due to the changes to Ventari's Will. With it both being free of energy cost and having no cooldown, it makes exploiting bubble uptime very easy, particularly in group settings where you are stacked with other supports to cover your gaps since you can permanently move the tablet to be right on your tag non-stop so long as you spam the skill fast enough. If you are running core Rev, you can technically even gain energy with it up via F2, but that's assuming there is no other skill usage to drain energy. And that begs the question... Does it deserve a nerf? For me it's a bit hard to say, but I'd probably err on the side of "yes". On one hand, the bubble uptime is problematic, but on the other hand, if you are playing a perma bubble bot, you are essentially relegating yourself to *exclusively* that role, in which case you are sacrificing a whole lot of other support/utility in the process. If you use weapon skills or legend skills, you will drain your energy relatively quickly and be forced to either sit in Ventari with no bubble as you wait for energy to pool back up, or swap legends, also forcing you off the bubble. The skill is a lot less problematic in smallscale because the best way to counter Ventari is to hard focus it and force it to blast through its energy so it can no longer upkeep the bubble. Since that problem doesn't exist to nearly the same extent in largescale, it definitely does complicate it a bit, and I think that's mostly due to the fact that there is no target cap on bubble skills (not saying a target cap is the solution). @OP, when was the last time projectiles were actually viable against comped/organized squads, which is what you are referencing in this post. The most recent time I can remember is when Soulbeast's Unstoppable Union was still a 4s unlimited count unblockable. But since that was changed, using a projectile weapon/class against a comped group has felt largely ineffective. At least in my experience. Between Scrapper bubbles, Guardian shield bubble, FB reflect bubble, and random magnetic aura procs, it has already been an uphill battle. I admit that it'd kitten me off a bit if bubble got hit without other projectile denial skills also getting touched. In largescale it is easy to rotate Scrapper bubbles, which is a meta support pick with insane levels of utility on a skill that already provides stab. Tempest Mag aura spam is an absolute kitten in smallscale/cloud fights with how much uptime it can get, and reflects are 100x more unfun to fight against. Guardians also have a lot of potential for bubble uptime when stacking them. Ventari has been considered meme-tier for years now and literally one day after the patch comes out we already get a complaint here in the forum. I have been trying to advocate for Ventari changes for *years* (like legit probably 6 years) so it can actually see more play and I am finally happy with how it is performing in WvW, so I fear they'd nerf it too hard and send it back to undesirability. With that said, I think that something like a -1 upkeep increase on Protective Solace would be totally fine and wouldn't break the legend by any means. And then iterate from there to see how things settle. Just please ANet, don't butcher this legend. Not everyone likes to play FB/Scrapper. Those are my honest two cents. Also, I have to point out that the whole "tablet healing for 10k" that was mentioned earlier is a thing of the far past. Between the Feb 2020 patch and this last one, Rev has lost a lot of its healing modifiers as well as some healing potency from Natural Harmony, its burst heal skill. Some of that was restored in this patch but it's still not nearly at the same level as it was. If we're going to talk about broken healing, that's moreso a conversation about Vindi than it is Ventari.

The more you talk about Mag, the more they grow in power.

Hope you stream it some time so I can see it being used in PvP in neat ways. I never catch you during your streams but like to watch your vods.

I agree OP. Really enjoying what I've played of the Ventari changes so far. Glad you are enjoying the changes to Energy Expulsion because that so far has been the hardest adjustment for me. But then again, they butchered that skill in sPvP so I would also welcome the change there. Haven't tested each and every trait but so far it feels like a win. The extra self-sustain potential is very noticeable.

Yeah I agree completely. Honestly as much as I absolutely rag on the Warclaw, mount stomp was some of the best fun I've had in WvW. In regards to the OP: downstate will never be permanently removed from WvW, but it would be nice if ANet would experiment more with general downstate rules and balance. I'd like for them to be more bold with their special week/weekend events (like no downstate) and use them as a testing ground for possible future changes so they can actually gather player feedback and see how it affects the WvW landscape at large. It's a very integral part of PvP/WvW combat that seems to be largely forgotten about by ANet. I'd also like to see them distribute active finisher skills like Warbanner, or even skills that do increased damage to downed players like Virtuoso's Sword of Decimation, to more classes so there is more of a counter to rez potential.

And so it begins...

Yup just added that part to my post hehe. We'll see how long they stick around for but it's cool to see so many for now.

Not really sure how I feel about it because content has been so slow in WvW, but I think I really like most of the changes. Most jarring thing for me is the change to the elite. It's going to be really hard for me to get used to this change as it was so good for using when CC'd with low energy. Other thing that will be a learning curve for me is proccing Charged Mists now. Was so easy before with how the elite worked. The Ventari's Will change is incredible and I highly recommend keybinding it to a mouse button. Empowered Ventari skills are a mixed bag for me: Natural Harmony's and Protective Solace are good/great, but Purifying Essence's and Energy Expulsion's are meh. There is no ICD on Eluding Nullification. Like wut. AoE condi cleanse with no ICD for an adept? My god. Not sufficient testing to say how I feel about the rest of the stuff. But I'm seeing tablets everywhere on my current server. IMO we gonna see a lot of QQ about bubble spam because the uptime on it actually sticking on allies is really nutty now with no ICD/energy on VW.

Off the top of my head I know that ESO does this, and generally in a batch of 5 separate weekly patches for small iterations over the month. Although the common sentiment seems to be that PTS feedback is often ignored there as well, it's a really great system in theory.

Admittedly I am a bit worried about this because it very well could turn out that the healing values on all of the new healing traits are extremely low. Crossing my fingers that is not the case. In PvE it is definitely going to be the most drastic considering the Salvation modifiers are not nerfed. The nerfs are definitely severe, though I do think that a few of the meta healing builds I have looked up take a couple orb traits, so perhaps not as much as I anticipate. In WvW, in full Minstrel's/Monks w/ Food/Util/Infusions, I'll be losing out on anywhere from 20%-27% outgoing healing (about -25% from Selfless Amplification getting removed, -7% from Tranquil Balance getting removed, but then +5% from Serene Rejuvenation getting buffed). That's a considerable amount to be fair. You can take something like Magi or Cleric's to maximize your healing and then further the loss via Selfless Amplication, but it'll make even more sense post-patch to take Minstrel's. In PvP, Selfless Amplification being removed doesn't have as big of an impact considering the best healing power amulets available are Avatar/Sage @ 500 healing power. In Avatar/Monks I'll be missing out on just under 6-13% outgoing healing, which is good because they never seemed to factor in that removing Mender's Amulet was a considerable nerf to Selfless Amplification. But I think it's also important to consider what we're gaining: -A significantly more reliable way of actually landing the skills on allies due to Ventari's Will being a 0.25s CD -A much more reliable and polished version of healing orbs -More group cleanse -Group endurance regen -A wider array of boons in Ventari (at the cost of alacrity). Prot alone is a big deal in my eyes. -More energy to spend on the legend skills due to the energy conserved via Ventari's Will being free (PvE againwill unfortunately feel the tradeoff from this the most due to not needing to move the tablet as frequently, and Ventari's Will being stronger there) -More self-sustain in Ventari due to the added boons, additional effects, and a beefier Natural Harmony Not trying to invalidate your argument because I genuinely agree with it to an extent, but I am optimistic about the changes and hope that the tuning they do on the new goodies is high enough to justify the loss of outgoing healing modifiers. I mourned the massive hit to our WvW/PvP modifiers in the Feb 2020 patch for a very long time, and honestly Ventari has never felt the same since considering big healing was always its big gimmick. I'm hoping that these changes will round off the legend/traitline more. I think for myself the biggest things I will miss are the knockback from the tablet elite, as well as how easy its energy depletion mechanic made proccing Charged Mists. Also hopefully my maths are right for the modifier stuff.

I'm going to err on the side of this likely being intended. While it feels a bit counterintuitive to have something on the ground cancel your dodge, I suspect ANet wanted it to follow the normal trend of warding effects denying evade frames. We are able to benefit from ground effects while in the air, so IMO it does make sense for us to also be affected by warding effects. It just happens to feel much worse on the spec since we have one dodge and lose out on the strong effects attached to it. Not actually sure...do warding lines deny the additional dodge effects for Daredevil and Mirage? Pretty sure they do for Daredevil but not sure if the Mirage ambush window gets cancelled.

I'm definitely looking forward to a few of the changes, like the ones for Ventari/Salvation and Shadow Arts (for support Specter), though this is through the lens of a WvW main who only casually dabbles in strikes for PvE endgame content. The biggest disappointment for me was the lack of more substantial changes for PvP/WvW. Was hoping for bigger reworks to Ranger spirits as well as more specific changes and polishings to the EoD specs, among other things.

Thanks Grouch. It's nice to know that there is now a separate balance team from the one working on elite specs (assuming we get them for expac 4).

Rev healing was nerfed only in PvP and WvW back in Feb 2020, though I don't think it was touched in PvE. The tablet is losing its alacrity output, and Salvation's outgoing healing modiers will be reduced quite significantly come this Tuesday, but it will be gaining some new things in return. Are your complaints about Rev healing being weak or the kit as a whole?

Yeah I'm wondering how the tuning will be on this stuff. May be broken. Will for sure be testing on Tuesday.

I see, thanks for the nice explanation!

The Ventari and Salv changes sure seem at first glance to be promising. It's a lot to digest at once. You lose alac and outgoing healing modifier potential while gaining a whole lot in the process (based on my first impression). Really happy about the change to Ventari's Will and the removal of healing orbs. I think the tablet will feel really great now for those that enjoy micromanagement. Having no energy cost and a 0.25s CD on Ventari's Will is MASSIVE and I will very gladly take that over the heal it gives. This will free up a lot of energy for the Revenant to use on other skills. Being able to get all those boons via Salv while in Ventari is also really exciting. Finally we get some regen back to the legend, though now it feels like even more like Tree Song lite. While I'm sad to lose alacrity, I never liked the way it was implemented on Natural Harmony, so I am happy to see the skill moving in a different direction. The biggest bummer for me is no longer being able to spam knockback on enemies, though really I just used that as a source of entertainment more than anything. Wondering if the CD will remain the same for the skill. If so, they need to revert the CD nerf to it in PvP. Very curious about the tuning of the tuning of stuff in general as that'll determine their viability. Aside from Ventari/Salv stuff, the quickness duration seems a bit low on Draconic Echo for PvE, at least based on first impression. Banish Enchantment WvW was really out of the blue tbh. Was that nerfed because some people are spamming the skill in zergs and getting high on the boonrip charts? Wondering for the PvE endgamers if the change to AP is of any significance for Rene support? Are you able to get perma group fury via pack runes and AP on Diviner Rene? All in all, the patch was a huge disappointment in my eyes, with one of the few exceptions being for Ventari players. Not gonna lie...didn't see that one coming.

The Ventari and Salv changes sure seem at first glance to be promising. It's a lot to digest at once. You lose alac and outgoing healing modifier potential while gaining a whole lot in the process (based on my first impression). Really happy about the change to Ventari's Will and the removal of healing orbs. I think the tablet will feel really great now for those that enjoy micromanagement. Having no energy cost and a 0.25s CD on Ventari's Will is MASSIVE and I will very gladly take that over the heal it gives. This will free up a lot of energy for the Revenant to use on other skills. Being able to get all those boons via Salv while in Ventari is also really exciting. Finally we get some regen back to the legend, though now it feels like even more like Tree Song lite. While I'm sad to lose alacrity, I never liked the way it was implemented on Natural Harmony, so I am happy to see the skill moving in a different direction. The biggest bummer for me is no longer being able to spam knockback on enemies, though really I just used that as a source of entertainment more than anything. Wondering if the CD will remain the same for the skill. If so, they need to revert the CD nerf to it in PvP. Very curious about the tuning of the tuning of stuff in general as that'll determine their viability. Aside from Ventari/Salv stuff, the quickness duration seems a bit low on Draconic Echo for PvE, at least based on first impression. Banish Enchantment WvW was really out of the blue tbh. Was that nerfed because some people are spamming the skill in zergs and getting high on the boonrip charts? Wondering for the PvE endgamers if the change to AP is of any significance for Rene support? Are you able to get perma group fury via pack runes and AP on Diviner Rene? All in all, the patch was a huge disappointment in my eyes, with one of the few exceptions being for Ventari players. Not gonna lie...didn't see that one coming.

Revenant Ancient Echo: This skill now grants regeneration instead of alacrity in Legendary Centaur Stance. Rejuvenating Assault: This skill no longer creates healing orbs and instead heals allies around the revenant. Devastation Assassin's Presence: This trait has been reworked. It now grants fury to allies while in combat, applying fury with a 3-second duration on a 10-second interval. Legendary Centaur Stance After summoning Ventari's Tablet, the next Legendary Centaur skill will be empowered. This occurs when entering Legendary Centaur Stance or when using Project Tranquility. Natural Harmony: Healing is increased and endurance is granted to affected allies. Purifying Essence: Additional conditions are removed. Protective Solace: Grant protection to allies in the area. Energy Expulsion: Knockdown duration is increased. Project Tranquility: This skill now activates instantly. Increased base pulse heal from 325 to 363 in PvE only. Ventari's Will: This skill no longer has an energy cost. Reduced cooldown from 3 seconds to 0.25 seconds. This skill no longer heals allies. Natural Harmony: Increased heal attribute scaling from 2.25 to 2.75 in PvE only. Increased heal attribute scaling from 1.25 to 1.75 in PvP and WvW. Energy Expulsion: This skill no longer creates healing fragments and instead heals and removes conditions from allies in the area. This skill no longer consumes all energy when used. Increased energy cost from 10 to 35. This skill now knocks down enemies that it strikes instead of knocking them back. Legendary Demon Stance Banish Enchantment: Increased energy cost from 20 to 30 in WvW only. Salvation Healer's Gift: This trait no longer creates a healing orb. It instead heals nearby allies after completing a dodge roll. Blinding Truths: This trait now has an internal cooldown of 3 seconds in PvE and WvW. The 10-second internal cooldown in PvP is unchanged. Vital Blessing: This trait has been removed. Invoking Harmony has been moved to this slot. Tranquil Balance: This trait has been removed and replaced with Eluding Nullification. Eluding Nullification: This removes a condition from nearby allies at the end of the player's dodge roll. Words of Censure: This trait no longer creates a healing orb and instead heals nearby allies when blinding, immobilizing, or affecting a foe with crowd control effects. Fortified Blessing: This trait fills the slot previously held by Invoking Harmony. Grant protection when you remove a condition from an ally. Internal cooldown is 0.25 seconds. Serene Rejuvenation: Increased outgoing healing bonus from 15% to 20% in PvE and from 10% to 15% in PvP and WvW. This trait no longer causes Natural Harmony to grant alacrity. Instead, it causes Legendary Centaur Stance skills to apply the following boons: Natural Harmony: Vigor Purifying Essence: Regeneration Protective Solace: Swiftness Energy Expulsion: Resistance Generous Abundance: This trait no longer creates healing orbs, and instead heals nearby allies when activating a legend skill. Healing is increased and occurs around Ventari's Tablet when using a Legendary Centaur Stance skill. Selfless Amplification: This trait has been removed and replaced with Invigorating Dismissal. Invigorating Dismissal: This trait grants endurance when the revenant removes a condition from an ally. Retribution Planar Protection: Increased internal cooldown from 20 seconds to 30 seconds in PvP only. Herald Forceful Persistence: In PvE only, the bonus damage per active-upkeep herald skill has been increased from 4% to 5%. The bonus damage per non-herald active-upkeep skill has been increased from 13% to 15%. Draconic Echo: This trait now grants 1.5 seconds of quickness to allies when the revenant uses a consume skill, in addition to its previous effects. Elemental Blast: Increased cooldown from 10 seconds to 15 seconds. Damage multiplier increased from 1.15 to 1.5. Weakness duration increased from 4 seconds to 5 seconds. Chill duration increased from 2 seconds to 3 seconds. Burning duration increased from 3 seconds to 5 seconds. These changes are for PvE only. Burst of Strength: Increased cooldown from 12 seconds to 15 seconds. Damage multiplier increased from 1.25 to 1.6. These changes are for PvE only. Vindicator Energy Meld: Increased cooldown from 20 seconds to 30 seconds in PvP only. Balance in Discord: Reduced base heal from 1,162 to 810 in PvP only.

Nah def not the only one. That's my impression too. Based on what they said on the Chrono changes it sounds like they want to separate it from giving both quickness & alacrity, so I can only imagine it'll be the same fate for Ventari since Herald will have quickness.

May the 28th of June mark the end of healing orbs. Please for the love of god. Interesting stuff though. Personally I'm kinda scared for Herald to have more quickness access in PvP/WvW since DE was already the most popular choice, but we will see how it is implemented. I could be overestimating its value. Excited for the Ventari changes.

It has been like 4+ years since I've been on NSP but I remember it both back then and every so often since then when against him. My point is, it's a rare occurrence and for good reason. He's the only commander that fields a decent amount of people that I have seen ever run Ventari. Not saying it's the normal thing he runs, I know he's always almost on Mes.

Yeah that issue alone is pretty significant. The only tag I have ever seen use Ventari is [EBG] Nic on NA, but I highly doubt that is his first pick. If I was a commander and only had a Revenant available to play, I'd likely play either Minstrel Jalis/Glint Herald or Minstrel Jalis/Alliance Vindicator.

Same honestly lmao.

Good to hear, because 4k with their usual explanations is not much. Very curious what the changes will be.