[when does the greed stop?]

18 minutes ago, Zok.4956 said:

Do you really believe, that Anet maintains a real inventory of gems (that could run empty in theory) and that you get the gems you buy with gold come from this inventory? And that the gems someone uses to buy gold (or BL skins or whatever) are added to this inventory?

Do you then also believe that Anet maintains a real inventory of every BL-skin in the Gemshop that you can buy in the Gemshop? And if you buy a BL-skin in the Gemshop you get one item from Anets Gemshop inventory of this BL-skin? Like with real physical items, i.e. when you buy a pair of shoes in RL?

Why would Anet want to create the overhead of maintaining such a system when there is a software solution with less overhead and less development costs that looks exactly the same to the outside, because these are all virtual items and destroying/consuming/creating them costs nothing internally?

So, if you buy gems with gold I don't think you get gems that someone else bought with real money sometime before.  You simply get a gem number credited to your account and the gold number is debited from your account. So at this moment gems are virtually created and gold is deleted/consumed. That's also how a gold sink works.

 

I don't really know how the system works. I think its highly likely the prices are regulated by Anet. But not necessarily and  there is also a component of supply/demand in there. Because the price fluctuates based on the demand. https://www.gw2tp.com/gems You can see how much the price changed over the years.

You can also play with the number of gems/gold you will buy and the price per gem (or gold) changes. I never did this actually (so am not 100% sure) but saw some guides. Which means not every gem/gold on the market has the same price at a given time. 

The author of this video seem to think it is a pure unregulated exchange between players. But hes probably only assuming. 

 

[Research notes :]

On 5/30/2023 at 3:31 PM, kharmin.7683 said:

Exactly so.  This mechanic has in no way affected the materials that I have stored up because I'm simply not engaging with it. 

Same for me. I avoid pretty much anything involving research notes.

Ive made the bare minimum bot upgrading and crafted one or 2 of those serpent weapons because those are really nice. 

I have everything for a few gen3 legies and intended to further upgrade bot but just cant get myself to do it because of rn. 

[when does the greed stop?]

5 minutes ago, Zok.4956 said:

I'm not finding excuses for Anet. Why should I?

 

I'm not looking for excuses, I just don't share your (kind of) strange point of view with this. Is that so hard to grasp that there are other valid opinions?

 

Yes, they are. And when Anet communicated their final monetization of this convenience feature, I had a strong feeling, that it was over the top and greedy.  Just my opinion. At the time there were even internal discussions at Anet, that these should be free as a feature of IBS.

 

No.  That's really far fetched. And next you will want to tell that skins are P2W because they have a visual advantage? Or extra character slots? lol

 

I actually fully agree with most of your opinions and had the same premise at the start of this discussion. I am completely fine with gw2's monetisation and would not play the game otherwise.

But I still think the game is pay2win and as long as they are selling power (lets forget about QOL here because those are borderline) it will be for me. I don't see any reason not calling it like that just because its more user friendly than some other game which is again more user friendly than some third game...

I would not say skins in this game are p2w. The impact is to low. But in some fast fps games skins can be p2w and often the competitive scene will run standard model for everyone for that reason.

[when does the greed stop?]

2 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Hold on ... the question here is what is the revenue that Anet make when someone converts gold to gems? I don't care where those gems come from because we know that they are infinitely available to purchase with RL money. People obtaining gems with gold can only result in a decrease in Anet revenues because the only other alternative to get gems is to spend RL money on them. 

 

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

No, people converting gold into gems does NOT make Anet revenue, PERIOD. The fact that the gold/gem trade exists must result in at BEST, no impact on revenue or at WORST, some negative impact on revenue. The BEST situation is that no one gets gems from gold and 100% of the gems people obtain are from RL money purchases. It's only down from there. 

There simply isn't a mechanism where Anet takes gems to some place to get money for them, just like there isn't one for engagement. 

 

 

42 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

We shouldn't deal in rhetorical questions with these deniers. Anet is most definitely maintaining some kind of control on the volume of gems available for conversion to maintain the attractiveness of the RL money gem purchasing. No one with any business acumen would allow such a critical and easy to eliminate risk to exist if that risk means having to answer to angry investors because of a significant drop in revenue (and consequently, value of the company). 

I think the problem here is that no one really wants to acknowledge GW2 is a business and it's designed to get money. So if people can 'invent' sources of revenue that aren't dipping into people's RL money, then it's easy for them to justify why Anet shouldn't be so 'greedy' by providing things for us to buy with RL money.  It's all very dishonest. 

There is no contradiction here I guess. You think this would hold water in a board meeting?

[when does the greed stop?]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

Yes, that's completely possible that a feature doesn't make them money and impacts their revenues critically. That's not a contradiction in any way. 

Define 'indirect' revenue? How is any money generated for Anet for a transaction between players where no money is involved and where there is missed opportunity for Anet to sell gems?

We already went through this. I gave some examples, even you gave one. 

As far as direct/indirect.  Direct would be something like a tax on each transaction. Indirect is basically any other money gain that is impacted by the feature. And I am not economist, neither fluent enough in English especially when it come to economics so these might not be the correct terms.

[when does the greed stop?]

2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Because gem to gold conversion has the potential to impact revenues in a negative way. There is no contradiction there with the fact that conversion doesn't make Anet money. 

So it's a feature that can "critically" impact revenue but doesn't make them any money. And you don't see any contradiction here? Shaky. And I think it was quite clearly implied by several posters here we are talking about indirect revenue. 

[when does the greed stop?]

9 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

We shouldn't deal in rhetorical questions with these deniers. Anet is most definitely maintaining some kind of control on the volume of gems available for conversion to maintain the attractiveness of the RL money gem purchasing. No one with any business acumen would allow such a critical and easy to eliminate risk to exist if that risk means having to answer to angry investors because of a significant drop in revenue (and consequently, value of the company). 

Why would they answer to investors and why would their revenue suffer if you claim they dont make any money from it? Actually according to you they are losing money on this so making the feature unattractive would benefit the investors.

[when does the greed stop?]

25 minutes ago, Zok.4956 said:

No, the hurdle, as you call it, is so small and without any real (dis-)advantage, that there is no real "win" you would "pay" for.

 

I reached level 80 with full ascended gear a lof of years ago and never wanted or needed gear with better stats than ascended or a higher level than 80.  And stat-wise there are no better stats than ascended and no higher level than 80, so I have max BiS gear since then and reached the ceiling stat wise.

Did I needed or wanted other things since then? of course. I have three sets of legy armor, legy trinkets and few legy weapons. Do they give me any advantage over other players? No, they are just cosmetics and convenience.

Did I buy Hot, PoF and EoD? Of course. Are they P2W (pay to win)? No. They are B2P (buy to play).

Thats all fine and well and true. Also saying you were full ascended years ago doesn't tell  how long it took you. And for some years is acceptable, for some it's days. Also stat wise ascended tier is only one portion of bis, you also need the correct stats and these can also change over time.

I'm completely fine with the monetisation system the game has, for me it's fair. But I dont understand why there is a need to find every possible excuse for Anet. The game offers the option to buy power with cash and you can wrap it in as many excuses as you want that's still an option and until it will be there, the game is pay2win.

Hey they are even selling equipment and build templates. Those could actually be considered as additional power in some wvw scenarios. Ability to adapt to the enemy with a press of button before the engagement starts can be huge. But I guess this will be nitpicked again because its just another small thing with barely any advantage (until it is).  

[when does the greed stop?]

Just now, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

if you want an example of Pay to Win

https://mmorpg.gg/archeage-review/#:~:text=Yes%2C ArcheAge is considered to,significant advantages over other players.

Is ArcheAge Pay-to-Win?

Yes, ArcheAge is considered to be pay-to-win. The game has a Cash Shop that sells items that give players significant advantages over other players.

These advantages can make the game much less enjoyable for non-paying players. ArcheAge Unchained is less pay-to-win, but it is still possible to indirectly buy power in the game.

So basically GW2. You can buy power and you can also get significant QOL advantages.

Thank you.

[when does the greed stop?]

3 minutes ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

again, Pay to Win is an established term, this is not it.

Show me your established term please. For me pay2win is easy. Ability to buy power with credit card.

[when does the greed stop?]

Just now, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

He doesn't understand the term Pay to Win as it is understood for this genre.  To fit his argument hew has picked a temporary moment in time where 2 played both under the 10 year old gear ceiling are 'racing' in some way or another, which has nothing to do with the core gameplay of GW2.

So have you reached the ceiling in this game? You are at max bis equipment and you will never need anything else? And this took you a few days? Ok, I concede, if thats true.

I'm playing for 5 years and I doubt I can reach that even if I spend all my gold and materials.

[when does the greed stop?]

2 minutes ago, Zok.4956 said:

What are you playing? PvE? No you dont have advantage over him. sPvP? Gear is normalized to create equal sitation. WvW? If you are on the same server, of course not.

Full exotic BIS gear costs only a few gold. Every player could have the required gold for exotic gear just from playing the game after a few days.

The stat difference between exotics and ascended gear is only a few percent.  The stat difference between ascended and legendary is zero. The DPS differenced between a bad and a good players is around 1000% (can be 10 times, or more).

Gear is not unimportant in GW2 but skill matters most, not gear.

This was addressed in my first post in this topic and I agree. The hurdle you can pay to overcome is very small. Its still there and its technically still pay2win though. 

[when does the greed stop?]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

So you think that if people have the ability to obtain gems with gold, they are more likely to do transactions , i.e., purchase them with RL money? Um ...maybe. Seems ... unlikely to me. 

I mean, the point here is that people are trying to sell the idea that 'engagement' and gold conversion has some comparable value to Anet  getting revenue. It doesn't. Sure, these are good and have positive reflection of the game, but you can't take 'engagement' to the bank. Gold conversion of gems in NO WAY makes Anet revenue. 

 

"Gold conversion of gems in NO WAY makes Anet revenue." The act itself not. But it opens additional market in the game. The gold market which brings additional different type of customer. Customers that want gold. That was my point. 

But you actually make a great point in first paragraph. That might actually be the best argument how this makes money for Anet. Hooking people with a little bit of "free" gems that they buy with gold. That is a common tactic, just get them to spend a few gems and the chance they will want more increases. 

[when does the greed stop?]

2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

It doesn't matter if the game is generating some extra gems for that trade economy or not (though if you think about it ... that market has to be controlled to some degree anyways because it impacts Anet's revenues).

The option of gold conversion most certainly does not make Anet money and because it's an option to obtain gems, also likely has a negative impact on revenues. 

I get your point and I am not sure I am correct on this one.

I would still say the gem to gold exchange opens additional market which brings more transactions. I am actually not sure though. I'm mostly basing this on my habits. I sometimes buy gems and its really a non issue for money wise. I just have so much gold that I just buy it with gold because I dont know what to do with it. But on the other hand someone bought gems to buy gold which wouldnt be possible without the market.

[when does the greed stop?]

Just now, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

which is relative to you, not relative to the ceiling.

Relative to both, always.

[when does the greed stop?]

Just now, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

Did you read what i've posted or indeed any article of malicious pay to win in mmorpg written in the last 20 years?  GW2 has a power ceiling (as in competitive edge), its impossible to buy a power advantage.  You can buy catch ups, skins, QOL, mount skins,expansions etc etc. 

All games (or most) have power ceiling. It only depends how high it is.

Its impossible to buy advantage? So if me and my friend start with the game today. He plays normally, I buy lege weapons and full exotic BIS gear on day 1 from TP with gold from gems I have no power advantage over him? Hmmmm.

[when does the greed stop?]

3 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That's not true at all because the gems that are purchased with gold conversion are recycled/traded. Those gems would be making Anet revenue if those gold converters had to purchase them with RL money. 

This is where I am not sure. Is the game generating extra gems for the gem to gold trade or not. 

If its not and all the gem to gold trades are between players then each and every single gem is paid in cash and thus makes 0 difference to Anet through how many hands it goes further on. Actually its even better its kept somewhere in the system and not spent on trading post because there are piles of gems that were bought from Anet and not utilised which means more cash for Anet compared if we would have better utilisation. 

[when does the greed stop?]

3 minutes ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

putting something in "quotes" doesn't make it a thing.  Pay to win is not about QOL its about a deliberate strategy employed in vertical games where those not buying power items from the shop are at a disadvantage competitively.  

Exactly. You can buy power in gw2 and you get advantage over other people. That is usually the definition of pay 2 win. Ability to buy power. You can buy power in GW2.

I put it in quotes because it depends on player if he sees it as a punishment. 

[when does the greed stop?]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

Hold on ... the question here is what is the revenue that Anet make when someone converts gold to gems? I don't care where those gems come from. People obtaining gems with gold can only be a decrease in revenues because the alternative is to spend RL money on them. 

There is no alternative. Each gem in game is paid in cash. There is 0 difference for Anet. 

[when does the greed stop?]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Yeah, except he's wrong ... I mean, someone clearly explain how people converting gold to get gems is making Anet money when it is an substitute to people spending RL money for gems?

 

Its a trade between 2 players correct? I honestly am not sure. 

If it is, then someone needs to open wallet before gems are on the market. 

[when does the greed stop?]

Just now, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

really? this is not pay to win, pay to win is well defined.  Pay to win refers to games that punish those that do not buy from the shop.

You get "punished" with needing to play more time. Same as Diablo Immortal. 

And you definitely get punished with lack of qol, artificial problems for which you can buy solutions. 

[when does the greed stop?]

The game is definitely pay2win. You open your wallet and can deck your char to almost max power lvl within minutes. Its the definition of p2win and technically no different to lets say Diablo Immortal. In Diablo you can also get everything for free technically. 

The difference is with paying you just bought yourself a few days of gameplay while in Diablo you would need many many years. 

[How will "Hide player visual effects" impact gem store items?]

I recently bought a new gaming computer after like 8 years. I log the game, set everything from low to highest, finally this is gonna be sweet... w t h I cant see sh

[CC kills this game]

The judges are very annoying to solo I would agree. I think they can also spawn in the tombs and that makes it super hard if you are solo. The map is not as populated and the whole chain takes a looooong time so even if someone joins for one of them they usually leave for the next.

But thats not really a cc problem, its more of a old content problem. Did you open lfg for some help? 

Also forget about open world tanking. Open world is designed with the necessity to avoid getting hit and not face tanking.  Face tanking is just plain bad for anything but specific raid encounters.

And let me tell you a secret, toughness tanking only works with raid bosses. With other mobs aggro is  acquired  through other means; proximity/distance, highest dmg, random. I'm not going to say toughness is not the best stat for open world but in most cases it is. But unless you play trailblazer or celstial something, its probably bad.

If you want to be an open world tank think less mmorpg type of tank and think more MOBA style tank. Tank is a distruptor (CC) and/or active group support. Now imo a trailblazer/celestial Herald is probably the closest thing to an OW tank. But not because it can take dmg but because it has huge amount of disruption (knock backs, pulls, blind...) and great group boon support.

[Central Tyria Mastery Points... ugh.]

8 hours ago, Endaris.1452 said:

 

I've seen the general complaint about Tyria mastery points several times and with how super niche the last legendary crafting mastery is (you only need it for 4 of the gen2 weapons) and how you don't have to invest into fractals without playing fractals I've always found complaints a bit weird. 

Im quite sure you need to do fractals for those gen2 collections anyway so theres that. 

Anyway while you dont need to do fractals to max out masteries, they are one of the easiest source. You can get most in t1 and t1 is mostly open world level of difficulty