Suggestion for countering permastealth thieves/dead-eyes.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

11 minutes ago, Exzen.2976 said:

This is WvW, not sPvP. Different gamemodes, different balance needs and any discussion about whether thief does damage or not in sPvP is kinda irrelevant for WvW, since it doesn't use the same amulet system with limited stats/runes/sigils. Also, permastealth isn't as much of an issue in sPvP, since players are punished for permastealth due to the mechanics of the gamemode. Also, I believe shadow arts was already nerfed in sPvP... 

Haha yeah and all wvw does in exacerbate the issues in pvp conquest due to non gear standardization and foods. Sure a thief can do more spike in wvw due to gear and foods but so can all the others I mentioned in previous posts.

[Exzen.2976]

1 minute ago, Psycoprophet.8107 said:

Haha yeah and all wvw does in exacerbate the issues in pvp conquest due to non gear standardization and foods. Sure a thief can do more spike in wvw due to gear and foods but so can all the others I mentioned in previous posts.

But none of those can do it from permastealth 😉

[shrew.3059]

8 minutes ago, Exzen.2976 said:

This is WvW, not sPvP. Different gamemodes, different balance needs and any discussion about whether thief does damage or not in sPvP is kinda irrelevant for WvW, since it doesn't use the same amulet system with limited stats/runes/sigils. Also, permastealth isn't as much of an issue in sPvP, since players are punished for permastealth due to the mechanics of the gamemode. Also, I believe shadow arts was already nerfed in sPvP... Just clueless.

 

Fine, except that it’s not clear from this thread how Stealth would be rebalanced for WvW. The suggestions would affect all of the game unless we now have rulesets for PvE, PvP, and WvW. Good luck with that.

 

Moreover, if we’re just talking about WvW, I still don’t see the issue. There are much bigger problems with the WvW meta right now, and roaming is only a small, inconsequential part of that meta (regrettably). Stealth plays no real part of the zerg meta so are we really arguing that because of one thing Thieves can do, in one game mode, in one role that doesn’t really tip the outcome of matchups, Thieves should be nerfed in every game mode? That’s really the discussion we’re having?

[Exzen.2976]

9 minutes ago, shrew.3059 said:

 

Fine, except that it’s not clear from this thread how Stealth would be rebalanced for WvW. The suggestions would affect all of the game unless we now have rulesets for PvE, PvP, and WvW. Good luck with that.

 

Moreover, if we’re just talking about WvW, I still don’t see the issue. There are much bigger problems with the WvW meta right now, and roaming is only a small, inconsequential part of that meta (regrettably). Stealth plays no real part of the zerg meta so are we really arguing that because of one thing Thieves can do, in one game mode, in one role that doesn’t really tip the outcome of matchups, Thieves should be nerfed in every game mode? That’s really the discussion we’re having?

Yes, it would be ideal if there was separate balance for the 3 separate game modes... kinda makes sense and there are already splits between the 3, just not enough.

 

I'm glad you have decided what is important and what isn't. People play the gamemode differently (kinda the beauty of wvw). Just because you don't care about small-scale or roaming doesn't mean it isn't something others would like to see and discuss. If you aren't interested, why are you even discussing it? Also would nerfing the ability to permastealth would have a huge impact on pvp and pve? I'm not entirely sure it would since I don't think permastealth is a problem in either.

Edited September 9, 2021 by Exzen.2976

[Psycoprophet.8107]

18 minutes ago, Exzen.2976 said:

But none of those can do it from permastealth 😉

They don't need to 😉

[Psycoprophet.8107]

19 minutes ago, shrew.3059 said:

 

Fine, except that it’s not clear from this thread how Stealth would be rebalanced for WvW. The suggestions would affect all of the game unless we now have rulesets for PvE, PvP, and WvW. Good luck with that.

 

Moreover, if we’re just talking about WvW, I still don’t see the issue. There are much bigger problems with the WvW meta right now, and roaming is only a small, inconsequential part of that meta (regrettably). Stealth plays no real part of the zerg meta so are we really arguing that because of one thing Thieves can do, in one game mode, in one role that doesn’t really tip the outcome of matchups, Thieves should be nerfed in every game mode? That’s really the discussion we’re having?

This^ imagine discussing thief being op in wvw when classes like fb,necros,revs etc exists that have been king of wvw for how long? Even though these classes have reigned Supreme and have been thee most impactful classes in wvw for years and years but oh no that thief got that zergling from stealth pls nerf, and allow much did the thief actually hit for outa stealth, except DE which can do decent spike.

[Telgum.6071]

1 hour ago, Solitude.2097 said:

If thieves can kill the Zerg build (which their goal is to survive MASS BATTLES  - 1v s X)  , then it's not weak

Really? Last time I checked the DPS zerg builds were using full berserker or marauder stats with scholar runes. What are you supposed to survive with that? The only reason you survive on massive battles is because you have from 1 to 3 allies protecting you, and once you get away from those allies the average thief will just take you.

Not saying that thief is weak either, but this comment... just imagine if thief couldn't even take down a guy on full PvE gear.

1 hour ago, Solitude.2097 said:

Rather than shaving stealth , we could reduce it's damage , like in PvP , if we are going to protect new people .

Is already low. It has been lowered across the years. Most of the thieves you see run pure damage setups with not much vitality, sometimes even on full zerker. If you were to use the same setups you would deal twice their damage regardless of your class, Deadeye is the only one with a brutal burst.

Edited September 9, 2021 by Telgum.6071

[shrew.3059]

4 minutes ago, Exzen.2976 said:

I'm glad you have decided what is important and what isn't. People play the gamemode differently (kinda the beauty of wvw). Just because you don't care about small-scale or roaming doesn't mean it isn't something others would like to see and discuss. If you aren't interested, why are you even discussing it? Also would nerfing the ability to permastealth would have a huge impact on pvp and pve? I'm not entirely sure it would since I don't think permastealth is a problem in either.

 

You misunderstood me. I’m not reporting what I think is important, I’m reporting what the meta currently is, or at least how I interpret it.

 

I’m also not saying the meta should be what it is, or that the meta needs to be complied with, but the meta can’t be ignored in a balance discussion because it’s the most obvious expression of that balance. I think people playing differently is great and should be encouraged, but the current meta doesn’t really support that because playing certain ways is going to be more rewarding, and therefore more popular, and therefore will have a bigger impact on the shape of future balance.

 

We might both love roaming, but if (hypothetically) it was essentially useless in determining the winner in WvW, it’s not going to be a pressing balance concern because it would affect too few players, and have too small an impact on outcomes. Duelling is a more extreme example of this: people might like to 1v1 but there isn’t really a game mode that supports this exclusively, so the game is not balanced for 1v1.

 

My view on permastealth is guided by my view on most permaboons; if it requires constant player interaction to maintain, I’m okay with it. This is not universally the case and some permaboon builds just require smashing keys off cooldown for big offensive/defensive gains. Permastealth, on its own, isn’t game-breakingly powerful for three reasons:

 

1. It requires multiple skills and coordinated interaction to work, i.e., it’s not passive,

2. It requires build trade-offs, i.e., you trade damage for tactical advantage,

3. It allows a Thief to choose the nature of their engagements, but does not determine the outcome, i.e., it’s an advantage like Stab but like Stab, it won’t win you a fight on its own.

[Exzen.2976]

11 minutes ago, Psycoprophet.8107 said:

They don't need to 😉

Haha, not untrue in some cases. I have already said before that I am aware permastealth isn't the only broken thing in wvw. You can at least see them coming though...

[MrForz.1953]

Just now, shrew.3059 said:

Fine, except that it’s not clear from this thread how Stealth would be rebalanced for WvW. The suggestions would affect all of the game unless we now have rulesets for PvE, PvP, and WvW. Good luck with that.

 

Eh, the original suggestion is horrible, and stealth itself isn't bad design as a card to play. Shadow Arts has a tendency to load it to absurd levels with the increased duration, health/initiative regen and condition cleanses. The straw might be Concealing Restoration which I'm not sure why it's there to begin with. While stealthed certainly isn't invulnerable, it's still a really good state to be in with these bonuses along with its intended effect, and for a long time thanks to D/P and to Silent Scope on their related specs and builds. 

I still stand that I'd like to take some potency out of Shadow Arts or D/P's synergy, one or the other, and put it back to trait lines like Critical Strikes for actual lethality. I like to do thief things but I can't gaze at the two (three if you count the circus core P/D build) builds that are being used without an overwhelming urge to puke and more exotic setups like Staff, S/X and just Acrobatics in general don't exactly make up for the lack of stealth in actual combat.

 

Just now, shrew.3059 said:

Moreover, if we’re just talking about WvW, I still don’t see the issue. There are much bigger problems with the WvW meta right now, and roaming is only a small, inconsequential part of that meta (regrettably). Stealth plays no real part of the zerg meta so are we really arguing that because of one thing Thieves can do, in one game mode, in one role that doesn’t really tip the outcome of matchups, Thieves should be nerfed in every game mode? That’s really the discussion we’re having?

It's... quite complex. Roamers don't have much in the way of effectiveness in the grand scheme of things, some would simply rather roam in WvW than be stuck in the dullness of sPvP and its nodes yada yada looking for a good story and just small scale adventures. The two most popular thief builds are kind of unhealthy in WvW (they would have me play too much with my food at times when I use them), but they dominate on matters that are close to 0% relevant in contrary to Scourges, FBs and Scrappers that dominate another, much more relevant aspect of WvW.

Should there be actual balance concerns about very small scale WvW for the sake of the players I initially mentioned? I guess... that's where we should have started before pointing at specific class or spec issues.

[Exzen.2976]

14 minutes ago, shrew.3059 said:

 

You misunderstood me. I’m not reporting what I think is important, I’m reporting what the meta currently is, or at least how I interpret it.

 

I’m also not saying the meta should be what it is, or that the meta needs to be complied with, but the meta can’t be ignored in a balance discussion because it’s the most obvious expression of that balance. I think people playing differently is great and should be encouraged, but the current meta doesn’t really support that because playing certain ways is going to be more rewarding, and therefore more popular, and therefore will have a bigger impact on the shape of future balance.

 

We might both love roaming, but if (hypothetically) it was essentially useless in determining the winner in WvW, it’s not going to be a pressing balance concern because it would affect too few players, and have too small an impact on outcomes. Duelling is a more extreme example of this: people might like to 1v1 but there isn’t really a game mode that supports this exclusively, so the game is not balanced for 1v1.

 

My view on permastealth is guided by my view on most permaboons; if it requires constant player interaction to maintain, I’m okay with it. This is not universally the case and some permaboon builds just require smashing keys off cooldown for big offensive/defensive gains. Permastealth, on its own, isn’t game-breakingly powerful for three reasons:

 

1. It requires multiple skills and coordinated interaction to work, i.e., it’s not passive,

2. It requires build trade-offs, i.e., you trade damage for tactical advantage,

3. It allows a Thief to choose the nature of their engagements, but does not determine the outcome, i.e., it’s an advantage like Stab but like Stab, it won’t win you a fight on its own.

The wvw meta includes roaming meta and "winning" in wvw means very little in its current state.

 

I don't think we're ever going to agree on this subject. Stealth may require active action to upkeep - my issue is and always has been the lack of counterplay. 

Edited September 9, 2021 by Exzen.2976

[shrew.3059]

23 minutes ago, Exzen.2976 said:

The wvw meta includes roaming meta and "winning" in wvw means very little in its current state.

 

I don't think we're ever going to agree on this subject. Stealth may require active action to upkeep - my issue is and always has been the lack of counterplay. 

 

I guess I’m of the opinion that although the meta includes Roaming, it’s presence or absence amounts to very little so it almost feels like a mode within a mode. Maybe that’s okay, maybe that’s evidence of something broken in WvW, but that’s not a hill I’m willing to die on so I’ll grant you that point.

 

As to the second point, I’m not intransigent, I’m just not clear on some of the arguments being made. I’ve played Thief and fought Thieves, and while Stealth doesn’t have direct counterplay, it also doesn’t sway an encounter as much as is being claimed. I’ve seen great Thieves use Stealth to survive against all possible odds, and mediocre Thieves attempt to do the same thing and die after putting a single foot wrong. For me, buffing or nerfing needs to be pegged to the average player; an excellent player will make anything seem overpowered, but a skill/mechanic is overpowered if it makes a terrible player seem like an excellent one. I don’t think Stealth reaches that level.

 

My own experience with Stealth leads me to believe that it’s offensive power scales with player skill; Stealth won’t turn a bad player into a good one, at best it allows a bad player to reconsider their life choices when the attempt to engage better players.

[shrew.3059]

33 minutes ago, MrForz.1953 said:

Shadow Arts has a tendency to load it to absurd levels with the increased duration, health/initiative regen and condition cleanses. The straw might be Concealing Restoration which I'm not sure why it's there to begin with. While stealthed certainly isn't invulnerable, it's still a really good state to be in with these bonuses along with its intended effect, and for a long time thanks to D/P and to Silent Scope on their related specs and builds. 

I still stand that I'd like to take some potency out of Shadow Arts or D/P's synergy, one or the other, and put it back to trait lines like Critical Strikes for actual lethality. I like to do thief things but I can't gaze at the two (three if you count the circus core P/D build) builds that are being used without an overwhelming urge to puke and more exotic setups like Staff, S/X and just Acrobatics in general don't exactly make up for the lack of stealth in actual combat.

 

I’d like to see more build variety, but I don’t think Shadows Arts is the problem. Shadow Arts is good, but it’s not like Trickery good. It gives you a lot of Stealth related advantages but it still relies on player skill to actualise them. Even stacking Stealth with BP+HS requires practice, and it’s not like players pop into the game with that knowledge.

 

Compare the sustain from Shadow Arts to Critical Strikes; Invigorating Precision is passive and while not a good PvP pick, is definitely nice for keeping a Thief upright in PvE (assuming they don’t have a pocket healer). Similarly, Trickery is largely passive; you get important bonuses just by going 3-1-2 and Stealing. Improvisation from Deadly Arts *chef’s kiss* is great because it opens up a lot of creativity that demands thought and interaction from the player. Maybe the key is to make the Stealth bonuses more active, rather than granting passive bonuses, let them reset a skill or refund INI, or something that forces a player to make a choice or trade-off.

[crewthief.8649]

4 hours ago, hobotnicax.7918 said:

Soulbeast is "broken" because l2p issues. Anyone defending thief at this point can't be taken seriously.

Imagine being so biased, LMFAO. Okay, guy. 😉

[Junkpile.7439]

Funny how i didn't first 8 years have any idea about thief skills and traits. I did just know that it's broken class and tried to avoid them. Then i made one and did understand that it's even more broken than i thought. I did read skills and traits and was like "how to kitten thief ever die". 😅

[shrew.3059]

6 hours ago, Junkpile.7439 said:

Funny how i didn't first 8 years have any idea about thief skills and traits. I did just know that it's broken class and tried to avoid them. Then i made one and did understand that it's even more broken than i thought. I did read skills and traits and was like "how to kitten thief ever die". 😅

 

So your opinion after 9 years is only slightly more informed than your opinion after 8 years because you read the skills/traits? Are you sure you want this to be your argument?

[Shroud.2307]

Basically for some of the people here, the logic is this,

Start big, not small. Roaming is useless, why bother balancing one thing when so many other things need it.

Spoiler

And that is exactly how disasters like the February patch happen that make sweeping changes without making reviews, and various things get treated unfairly as a result. Everything deserves its time under the microscope, and Thief is one of those things.
 

Thief is bad at everything, contributes nothing, and Stealth is the only defense it has.

Spoiler

Roaming and small scale are important aspects of WvW whether people think so or not. The blob can't be everywhere at once. Thief, among a handful of others, are the equivalent of Guardian and Necromancer in the roaming scene - one of the tops among the meta and have persisted as such for as long as WvW has existed. And although Stealth may be one of the most significant defenses a Thief has, that does not change the fact that it is mechanically broken. Just because some of you are jumping to the conclusion that reducing access to Stealth means no compensation for doing so, doesn't mean it's true. Increasing evade uptime might be one way Thief could improve with reduced Stealth access.

The only people who complain about Stealth are bad and need to l2p.

Spoiler

Same could be said of those who rely on Stealth to get anything done. You literally do not need to be camping Stealth with 75% uptime to win a fight, but people do it because it's forgiving. Any mistake you make can be quickly erased by going fully defensive and just Stealthing and re-Stealthing until you recover the cooldowns you need. And because Stealth is a crappy mechanic, how do you propose someone stops you from doing this once you've started? Only one Reveal is AOE. You can't just swing at the air with total certainty you'll hit the Thief. Should you throw a Target Painter? Weird how there's an option not bound by class to combat someone(s) constantly re-applying Stealth. Almost like Stealth is an unengaging mechanic that in the freedom of WvW can be infinitely exploited, and ANet realized this mistake too late to turn back, so they bandaid fixed it because it's better than letting it worsen.

 

Edited September 10, 2021 by Shroud.2307

[ASP.8093]

I just want to point out that "Is there anything wrong with thieves/stealth?" and "Is there anything wrong with thieves/stealth *that can be fixed by applying the specific nerf suggested by the OP?*" are two very different questions.

[ASP.8093]

11 hours ago, Solitude.2097 said:

If thieves can kill the Zerg build (which their goal is to survive MASS BATTLES  - 1v s X)  , then it's not weak .

This is an incredibly inane thing to post.

 

Zerg DPS builds sacrifice their own defensive and reactive capabilities for greater efficiency at dropping piles of multi-target damage. Most of them also sacrifice their ability to burst or pressure a single target as well! You're bringing a rocket launcher to a knife fight and then saying it's unfair you never got time to line up your shot.

 

And zerg support builds like Minstrel Firebrands and Scrappers can tank a whole bunch of damage while running away. If a single thief can pick you off without a long chase then you're doing a bad job playing your role.

 

The game's instant build-swapping features allow you massive freedom to switch to a more self-sufficient build at a moment's notice, too. There's absolutely no reason you should be riding across half the map with a total roamer-food build.

 

11 hours ago, Solitude.2097 said:

Rather than shaving stealth , we could reduce it's damage , like in PvP , if we are going to protect new people .

"Protect new people" from what?

[shrew.3059]

36 minutes ago, Shroud.2307 said:

Basically for some of the people here, the logic is this,

Start big, not small. Roaming is useless, why bother balancing one thing when so many other things need it.

  Reveal hidden contents

And that is exactly how disasters like the February patch happen that make sweeping changes without making reviews, and various things get treated unfairly as a result. Everything deserves its time under the microscope, and Thief is one of those things.
 

Thief is bad at everything, contributes nothing, and Stealth is the only defense it has.

  Reveal hidden contents

Roaming and small scale are important aspects of WvW whether people think so or not. The blob can't be everywhere at once. Thief, among a handful of others, are the equivalent of Guardian and Necromancer in the roaming scene - one of the tops among the meta and have persisted as such for as long as WvW has existed. And although Stealth may be one of the most significant defenses a Thief has, that does not change the fact that it is mechanically broken. Just because some of you are jumping to the conclusion that reducing access to Stealth means no compensation for doing so, doesn't mean it's true. Increasing evade uptime might be one way Thief could improve with reduced Stealth access.

The only people who complain about Stealth are bad and need to l2p.

  Reveal hidden contents

Same could be said of those who rely on Stealth to get anything done. You literally do not need to be camping Stealth with 75% uptime to win a fight, but people do it because it's forgiving. Any mistake you make can be quickly erased by going fully defensive and just Stealthing and re-Stealthing until you recover the cooldowns you need. And because Stealth is a crappy mechanic, how do you propose someone stops you from doing this once you've started? Only one Reveal is AOE. You can't just swing at the air with total certainty you'll hit the Thief. Should you throw a Target Painter? Weird how there's an option not bound by class to combat someone(s) constantly re-applying Stealth. Almost like Stealth is an unengaging mechanic that in the freedom of WvW can be infinitely exploited, and ANet realized this mistake too late to turn back, so they bandaid fixed it because it's better than letting it worsen.

 

 

If we’re summarising the argument:

 

The Claim: Stealth is bad, overpowered, and/or has no counterplay.

 

Evidence offered to support this Claim: personal anecdotes of losing to Thieves or Thieves running away.

 

Evidence not offered to support this Claim: Thieves dominating any game mode such that they are overwhelmingly represented in that game mode, any effects of Thief/Stealth dominance of the game mode.

 

Without evidence that this is a widespread problem negatively affecting the way the game is played, it sounds like frustrated players who have lost to Thieves and are now trying to win via forums what they couldn’t win via gameplay. Even worse, some of the arguments aren’t even about losing to Thieves but Thieves disengaging, therefore escaping a kill.

 

I assure you, bad Thieves die all the time, good Thieves kill bad players of other professions. If Thieves keep beating you (or escaping you), get better because I find it hard to believe you are doing well against every other profession.

[shrew.3059]

3 minutes ago, ASP.8093 said:

"Protect new people" from what?

 

Having to learn how to counter Stealth. Apparently, this is a priority of good game design? 🤷🏻‍♂️

[Shroud.2307]

30 minutes ago, shrew.3059 said:

 

If we’re summarising the argument:

 

The Claim: Stealth is bad, overpowered, and/or has no counterplay.

 

Evidence offered to support this Claim: personal anecdotes of losing to Thieves or Thieves running away.

 

Evidence not offered to support this Claim: Thieves dominating any game mode such that they are overwhelmingly represented in that game mode, any effects of Thief/Stealth dominance of the game mode.

 

Without evidence that this is a widespread problem negatively affecting the way the game is played, it sounds like frustrated players who have lost to Thieves and are now trying to win via forums what they couldn’t win via gameplay. Even worse, some of the arguments aren’t even about losing to Thieves but Thieves disengaging, therefore escaping a kill.

 

I assure you, bad Thieves die all the time, good Thieves kill bad players of other professions. If Thieves keep beating you (or escaping you), get better because I find it hard to believe you are doing well against every other profession.

Every time you respond to me you fixate on something else I've said without addressing the point I'm making.
Stealth is a poorly designed mechanic.

It does not matter to me if Thief is or is not capable of effecting more significant scales in WvW, or if it is or is not represented.
I am not asking for Thief to be nerfed without compromise. I am not venting any sort of frustration - I have no issue with Thieves and tend to lean toward supporting buffs rather than nerfs in their current state.

I am saying that Stealth, regardless of profession, was poorly designed. It's too far in GW2's life time to go back on that philosophy, but that doesn't mean positive changes can't be made. Thief is just in the unfortunate position of possessing the most access to this mechanic.

If you disagree with other things I've said, that's fine. The reason I'm not expanding on those is because I understand they are irrelevant to the central point.

[shrew.3059]

48 minutes ago, Shroud.2307 said:

Every time you respond to me you fixate on something else I've said without addressing the point I'm making.
Stealth is a poorly designed mechanic.

It does not matter to me if Thief is or is not capable of effecting more significant scales in WvW, or if it is or is not represented.
I am not asking for Thief to be nerfed without compromise. I am not venting any sort of frustration - I have no issue with Thieves and tend to lean toward supporting buffs rather than nerfs in their current state.

I am saying that Stealth, regardless of profession, was poorly designed. It's too far in GW2's life time to go back on that philosophy, but that doesn't mean positive changes can't be made. Thief is just in the unfortunate position of possessing the most access to this mechanic.

If you disagree with other things I've said, that's fine. The reason I'm not expanding on those is because I understand they are irrelevant to the central point.

 

The problem is with your central point. You say it’s poorly designed but nothing I’ve read here backs that up. It’s possible we have different standards of design.

 

I would expect a poorly designed mechanic to promote degenerate gameplay, that is: gameplay that does not break the rules of the game but undermines the intended design of the game as defined by the developers. For example, it could be argued “pre-stacking” is degenerate gameplay because it allows players to access boons they are not currently built for, and this goes against the principles of build design in GW2. If Stealth were degenerate in this way, it might allow players to do things ANet did not intend, or affect the game balance in ways that would break game modes.

 

Let’s take Knockdown. This has the potential to be degenerate because it prevents you from responding, and all you can do is watch as your health evaporates. This would be anticompetitive. Luckily, long duration KDs are rare, and they have counterplay in the form of Stun Breaks and Stability, which are available to every profession. Stealth doesn’t have those same counterplay options, but it also doesn’t have the same effect. Someone permastealthing doesn’t have the same result as permacontrol, because you are still free to act when your opponent stealths.

 

The counterplay to Stealth is tactical awareness.

 

This is the biggest perceived issue with Stealth, especially for newer players. Most abilities in the game can be directly countered by hitting a button that directly negates the threat: Stun Break, Block, Aegis, Stability, Cleanse and even Heal. Stealth doesn’t have a button you can press to counter it, you have to think your way through it, understand how it works, how it can be used, its strengths and limitations. Likewise, Thieves cannot just spam Stealth and hope to win, unless their win condition is simply survival.

 

I imagine a lot of players are frustrated by Conditions and CC in this game until they learn about Cleanses and Stun Breaks. Stealth has its own learning curve and requires you to be smart about it. I’ve seen multiple people jump a Thief, and when Stealth goes up, the attackers scatter looking for the Thief and are picked off one by one. This is not degenerate gameplay, it’s bad counterplay. It’s also frustrating because there isn’t a button you can press that negates your opponent’s advantage (even though technically Reveal does exist). Teleports and Stealth make Thieves very slippery, but how is this any worse than being flooded with conditions, having your boons ripped, being immobilised or pulled/pushed/knocked repeatedly?

[Psycoprophet.8107]

9 hours ago, Solitude.2097 said:

You do tho ?

You come here , saying that in PvP they don't have a problem with Stealth and they should instead nerf other things  .

 

Are u seriously saying stealth should be a priority in pvp balance currently? U really need to gain some experience and knowledge of the game before posting. Stealth is low on the list of things the devs need to look at in pvp currently. Wtf are there a bunch of new players posting or something lately?

[Exzen.2976]

3 hours ago, shrew.3059 said:

 

If we’re summarising the argument:

 

The Claim: Stealth is bad, overpowered, and/or has no counterplay.

 

Evidence offered to support this Claim: personal anecdotes of losing to Thieves or Thieves running away.

 

Evidence not offered to support this Claim: Thieves dominating any game mode such that they are overwhelmingly represented in that game mode, any effects of Thief/Stealth dominance of the game mode.

 

Without evidence that this is a widespread problem negatively affecting the way the game is played, it sounds like frustrated players who have lost to Thieves and are now trying to win via forums what they couldn’t win via gameplay. Even worse, some of the arguments aren’t even about losing to Thieves but Thieves disengaging, therefore escaping a kill.

 

I assure you, bad Thieves die all the time, good Thieves kill bad players of other professions. If Thieves keep beating you (or escaping you), get better because I find it hard to believe you are doing well against every other profession.

There is plenty of evidence and isn't just People losing to thieves and qqing. Some people posting here are good players with lots of experience and some of us are perfectly capable of killing most thieves. Even if a thief dies, it doesn't mean that permastealth is fair. 

 

Also when People do post actual evidence they get nasty comments from People in the thread.

 

You just disagree with or ignore "evidence" and then produce your own "evidence" based on your own experience - which is just as biased as mine is.

 

Thieves are dominant in smallscale/roaming in WvW, which you dismiss because its not something you care about. There's a whole section to it in metabattle and there are still plenty of people in wvw that enjoy smallscale/roaming. If you check the meta on roaming, thieves do dominate it. Fact. 

 

You are entitled to your own opinion (as we all are), but statements like yours above, where you dismiss everyone else's and try and position it as fact, is completely unfair.

Edited September 10, 2021 by Exzen.2976