Suggestion for countering permastealth thieves/dead-eyes.

[Exzen.2976]

19 minutes ago, Telgum.6071 said:

I literally called out an elementalist player and you and your boyfriend jumped on me to say "no ele is completely fine!" so here we are arguing about that 😄

Yeah of course, elementalist players don't play power builds because they are scared of thieves. They all turned out into trailblazer and celestial abusers because thieves. Tell me more.

The problem with elementalist damage if that it is often if not always combined with high condi pressure, evasion through defensive boons and skills spam, CC and burning burst.

Kinda funny mentioning the """long""" elementalist CD who can just swap elements.

kitten, so according to the people to come to complain about classes being overpowered, the same ones who made Thief and Warrior balance a meme due to constant complains accross the years while also refusing to address Elementalist and Guardian are saying that I embarass myself. That's it, is the average forum user and their "you know nothing, I do!"

You are still embarrassing yourself and no need for unnecessary "boyfriend" remarks. We are calling you out because you are incorrect and clearly have a limited understanding of elementalist.

 

Surely there's something wrong if a whole class is forced to play Cele/trailblazer because of stealth abuse thieves? I really don't understand what points you are trying to make. A permastealth thief can bait and wait out ele utility cooldowns while staying completely safe in stealth, negating large amounts of the sustain you complained about (barrier invulns etc) and then strike when the ele is more vulnerable. Even then, trailblazer and cele eles can't actually kill a thief, since they can't possibly chase them... A thief only dies if they make a mistake!

 

You are also assuming we are making these comments because we are QQing after being killed by a thief, which isn't correct. I have many hours on thief and personally don't enjoy playing it since I don't like playing things I consider completely overpowered. 

 

Also, I am not saying its the only broken thing in WvW, this is just a thread about permastealth, which is why people are understandably commenting on it. If this was a thread about grenades on engi, I would talk about that. If it was a thread about Guardian, I would talk about that. Etc. 

 

I notice you went completely silent on the subject of killing people with just an offhand dagger only 😉

Edited September 8, 2021 by Exzen.2976

[Telgum.6071]

22 minutes ago, Exzen.2976 said:

I notice you went completely silent on the subject of killing people with just an offhand dagger only 😉

Didn't the comment "are we talking about personal experiences" said enough about that? Do I really have to get you videos about berserkers on full PvE gear oneshotting 5 men in just a second, or a single party with two elementalist doing the majority of the work finishing an entire zerg? Your video only proves that you can defeat people who is worse than yours with little effort. Congratulations, I guess.

22 minutes ago, Exzen.2976 said:

You are also assuming we are making these comments because we are QQing after being killed by a thief, which isn't correct. I have many hours on thief and personally don't enjoy playing it since I don't like playing things I consider completely overpowered. 

 

Did I imply that? Truth be said, I assume you make those comments because you are an example of one small part of the gaming community with some sort of dev or superiority complex with random ideas about balancing. On the other guy I can confirm as it isn't the first time I see him doing such comments.

22 minutes ago, Exzen.2976 said:

Surely there's something wrong if a whole class is forced to play Cele/trailblazer because of stealth abuse thieves? I really don't understand what points you are trying to make. A permastealth thief can bait and wait out ele utility cooldowns while staying completely safe in stealth, negating large amounts of the sustain you complained about (barrier invulns etc) and then strike when the ele is more vulnerable. Even then, trailblazer and cele eles can't actually kill a thief, since they can't possibly chase them... A thief only dies if they make a mistake!

 

Surviving (mobility + stealth). That's the only area where a thief excels over the rest of the classes. What is the problem with that? Dude I'll gladly give up half of my survivality for a quarter of your utility.

By the way I'm not talking about Elementalist being overpowered against Thieves, I'm talking about Elementalist being overpowered and that's it. And sorry but I won't buy your "ele is forced to abuse celestial/trailblazer because thieves" idea.

 

 

Edited September 8, 2021 by Telgum.6071

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

4 hours ago, Exzen.2976 said:

https://youtu.be/kG4Dv7rjvvE

 

🤯

 

Video production to match the skill level even.  Impressive!  I have a feeling you're good all around, so you make broken stuff look even more broken.  😄

[Exzen.2976]

25 minutes ago, Telgum.6071 said:

Did I imply that?

 

"You know, all those things that thief lacks and have like thrice impact in WvW apart from one specific time that a thief player wrecked you."

 

Yes, yes you did.

25 minutes ago, Telgum.6071 said:

Dude I'll gladly give up half of my survivality for a quarter of your utility

Exactly what utility does Ele have that thief doesn't? Barrier? - OK, but stealth is better. Invuln? Dagger storm and 3x evades kinda do that... also, being in stealth does a better job, since the invuln lasts 3 seconds... stealth can last longer. Healing? - Thief has stealth on heal, plus potentially an uninteruptable heal in withdraw, that will then put you in stealth on a relatively low cd. CC? - Thief has lots of good cc still, shadow gust, unblockable daze on daredevil swipe, Bandits defense, Scorpion wire to name a few. Projectile denial? - Dagger storm, smoke screen, Sniper's cover. Evades? - Thief has more. Teleports? - Thief has more. This is honestly a ridiculous statement.

 

25 minutes ago, Telgum.6071 said:

By the way I'm not talking about Elementalist being overpowered against Thieves, I'm talking about Elementalist being overpowered and that's it. And sorry but I won't buy your "ele is forced to abuse celestial/trailblazer because thieves" idea.

This isn't a thread about ele being overpowered. We can talk about condi ele in another thread if you want, but I would generally agree that burning needs tuning down and cele/trailblazer is op. 

 

25 minutes ago, Telgum.6071 said:

And sorry but I won't buy your "ele is forced to abuse celestial/trailblazer because thieves" idea.

Why do you think you don't see many power eles then? 0.o You said yourself you never see them!

 

25 minutes ago, Telgum.6071 said:

Surviving (mobility + stealth). That's the only area where a thief excels over the rest of the classes. What is the problem with that?

The problem comes when the mix of the two essentially mean that you can't die unless you decide to over-commit or make a mistake. I believe you made a comment recently about playing thief when you want to go to North Camp and that you never die no matter how many players you see 😉 It is also a problem when stealth shuts down certain builds so hard that there is almost no counterplay without using an item from your inventory that requires you to have enough supply to use.

Edited September 8, 2021 by Exzen.2976

[Telgum.6071]

6 minutes ago, Exzen.2976 said:

Exactly what utility does Ele have that thief doesn't? Barrier?

Wrote it twice already.

6 minutes ago, Exzen.2976 said:

The problem comes when the mix of the two essentially mean that you can't die unless you decide to over-commit or make a mistake. I believe you made a comment recently about playing thief when you want to go to North Camp and that you never die no matter how many players you see 😉 It is also a problem when stealth shuts down certain builds so hard that there is almost no counterplay without using an item from your inventory that requires you to have enough supply to use.

Delving into other people's profile to see what they write is not cool, you know? Again, I fail to see the problem with that when it comes to survivability. Thief can run away, what a problem, glad this is a thread about perma stealth.

Edited September 8, 2021 by Telgum.6071

[Exzen.2976]

4 minutes ago, Telgum.6071 said:

Wrote it twice already.

Delving into other people's profile to see what they write is not cool, you know? Again, I fail to see the problem with that when it comes to survivability. Thief can run away, what a problem, glad this is a thread about perma stealth.

So you would give up half your survivability for quarter of eles barrier?! Haha, sure you would. I'm actually laughing. 

 

And it's not cool to use things that you have said on the forums to point out when you are being hypocritical? Haha. OK. 

 

Also, you brought up mobility...

Edited September 8, 2021 by Exzen.2976

[Telgum.6071]

Yeah buddy, sure. Ele only has barrier unlike thief. And thief is OP. And having to delve into other people's profile to bring new arguments is perfectly fine and normal.

Confirmed the complex superiority and the average forum moaner. Have a good day and don't bother quoting again 😁

Edited September 8, 2021 by Telgum.6071

[ASP.8093]

2 hours ago, Exzen.2976 said:

Why do you think you don't see many power eles then? 0.o You said yourself you never see them!

Like 30-40% of the roaming eles I see *are* Power burst, usually some Fresh Air Weaver variant since it's the best way to combine burst damage and on-demand CC. (I think the baseline ele skills are quite a bit undertuned, which is why non-Weavers suffer from a lack of truly good burst options. You need that Plasma Beam and Earthen Synergy to get your kills quickly.)

 

The rest are typically playing Cele because Elementalist is a class that gets almost all of its sustain from Boon Duration and Healing Power, and the mechanics of Attunement swapping mean that nearly every ele build has a whole bunch of Healing or Condi skills in their kit alongside their potential Power-burst skills.

Edited September 8, 2021 by ASP.8093

[kash.9213]

3 hours ago, Exzen.2976 said:

 

"You know, all those things that thief lacks and have like thrice impact in WvW apart from one specific time that a thief player wrecked you."

 

Yes, yes you did.

Exactly what utility does Ele have that thief doesn't? Barrier? - OK, but stealth is better. Invuln? Dagger storm and 3x evades kinda do that... also, being in stealth does a better job, since the invuln lasts 3 seconds... stealth can last longer. Healing? - Thief has stealth on heal, plus potentially an uninteruptable heal in withdraw, that will then put you in stealth on a relatively low cd. CC? - Thief has lots of good cc still, shadow gust, unblockable daze on daredevil swipe, Bandits defense, Scorpion wire to name a few. Projectile denial? - Dagger storm, smoke screen, Sniper's cover. Evades? - Thief has more. Teleports? - Thief has more. This is honestly a ridiculous statement.

 

This isn't a thread about ele being overpowered. We can talk about condi ele in another thread if you want, but I would generally agree that burning needs tuning down and cele/trailblazer is op. 

 

Why do you think you don't see many power eles then? 0.o You said yourself you never see them!

 

The problem comes when the mix of the two essentially mean that you can't die unless you decide to over-commit or make a mistake. I believe you made a comment recently about playing thief when you want to go to North Camp and that you never die no matter how many players you see 😉 It is also a problem when stealth shuts down certain builds so hard that there is almost no counterplay without using an item from your inventory that requires you to have enough supply to use.

I still get blasted in stealth, and most people at this point pretty much know all the places to spray on. They can't use Dagger Storm every time they stealth, if they have it. 

I'd like a change from the stealth on heal. I like most of that trait line but that part feels too stacked in one sense, while getting in the way at other times where I want to be more deliberate with my timers. 

Do people take stuff like Shadow Gust and Bandits Defense? I see a lot more Scorpion Wire lately but that already makes that utility bar tight where they still likely need a shadowstep and why not take something like Roll for Initiative over Bandits Defense? I guess if you're spot on with that kick it's alright. 

 

[Exzen.2976]

25 minutes ago, kash.9213 said:

I still get blasted in stealth, and most people at this point pretty much know all the places to spray on. They can't use Dagger Storm every time they stealth, if they have it. 

I'd like a change from the stealth on heal. I like most of that trait line but that part feels too stacked in one sense, while getting in the way at other times where I want to be more deliberate with my timers. 

Do people take stuff like Shadow Gust and Bandits Defense? I see a lot more Scorpion Wire lately but that already makes that utility bar tight where they still likely need a shadowstep and why not take something like Roll for Initiative over Bandits Defense? I guess if you're spot on with that kick it's alright. 

 

Heh, I'm not saying all of it is amazing (I actually meant Binding shadow instead if gust) - I was pointing out that it was ridiculous to suggest that you would give up half of thief's survivability for a quarter of eles utility by pointing out thief has plenty of utility too! And I'm not saying that stealth = invuln, but there is potential for much greater stealth duration than invuln. Same with barrier. In general having very high stealth uptime is just straight up better than having 3 seconds of invuln or barrier. Both of which can by negated by waiting...

[subversiontwo.7501]

5 hours ago, Telgum.6071 said:

Surviving (mobility + stealth). That's the only area where a thief excels over the rest of the classes. What is the problem with that?

 

 

Hasn't this been adressed enough already? What you're describing is the big problem with Thief as a class. This isn't a 1v1 game, it makes up for a very slim slice of what today can essentially be any combination of around 1-75v1-75v1-75. The problem with it is that it creates a situation where you can bully weaker players and avoid stronger players far too easily than what is healthy. It also translates to scaling. It makes it far too easy to bully fewer and avoid more.

 

Many of the things talked about in threads about the Thief are things that the class is intended to do or be good at. However, that is why we are talking about balance because there is something like being too good at something. There is also the case to be made of how that impacts the game mode or what you can do with that. Having tools to play in a negative, disruptive or content-stifling manner can be a bad thing regardless of balance.

 

It is also a question of being able to be fair to Thieves. The apologists whether they play the class or do not engage in the content seems to be fine with letting the class be overblown in certain types of (sub-) content as some sort of backwards compensation for lacking in other types of content. That is not healthy either. It's not good for others and it is not good for the players of the class.

 

It isn't healthy for the mode to have special anti-Thief supply extras instead of having balance adressed by ... balance.

 

It is a shame that we don't see more eg., Sword- or Staff Daredevils, of which at least the latter could easily be given more utility to broaden its application and appeal, instead of having a bunch selfish players using some blanket complaint about lack of utility to attempt to shut down constructive discussion and in that way hinder possible creative improvements.

 

Edited September 8, 2021 by subversiontwo.7501

[kash.9213]

1 hour ago, Exzen.2976 said:

Heh, I'm not saying all of it is amazing (I actually meant Binding shadow instead if gust) - I was pointing out that it was ridiculous to suggest that you would give up half of thief's survivability for a quarter of eles utility by pointing out thief has plenty of utility too! And I'm not saying that stealth = invuln, but there is potential for much greater stealth duration than invuln. Same with barrier. In general having very high stealth uptime is just straight up better than having 3 seconds of invuln or barrier. Both of which can by negated by waiting...

That's fair.

 

Can't you still fight in barrier? I guess you can match up the outcome of what you can throw during barrier and the impact of a successful Stealth Attack (if it's one of the stealth attacks worth using over something else) after the duration if it lands. Don't need a lot of stealth up time for that unless you're talking staggered, but hoping on consistent successful hits has to be worth the budget to set them up, maybe leaving some to bounce.

Edited September 8, 2021 by kash.9213

[Exzen.2976]

14 minutes ago, kash.9213 said:

That's fair.

 

Can't you still fight in barrier? I guess you can match up the outcome of what you can throw during barrier and the impact of a successful Stealth Attack (if it's one of the stealth attacks worth using over something else) after the duration if it lands. Don't need a lot of stealth up time for that unless you're talking staggered, but hoping on consistent successful hits has to be worth the budget to set them up, maybe leaving some to bounce.

I get your point, the difference is that stealth allows you to be completely in control of the fight, you can decide when to engage, when to wait longer until defensive cooldowns have been popped and negated etc. Barrier can be used while attacking, sure - and I'm not saying its not a strong tool, but a good player will kite you while you have barrier up - it disappears after 5 seconds and then it's likely on CD. Therefore it's effectiveness isn't completely within your control and requires someone to sit facetanking your damage while you absorb theirs through barrier.

 

Stealth also has the extra advantage of being able to detarget you (meaning skills requiring a target become useless), allows you reposition or escape, pass by enemies undetected and get the drop on someone, none of which barrier can do. I fully appreciate they're different, but I personally would never choose barrier over high stealth uptime if being asked which is better! I expect I wouldn't be alone there either.

[shrew.3059]

8 hours ago, Telgum.6071 said:

And thief is OP.

 

I guess if you’re going to be wrong there’s no sense being original.

[Shroud.2307]

Refer to my previous comment(s)[1][2] in this thread before anyone attacks me for saying the following.

Bottom line is that Stealth was very poorly implemented in GW2. I don't think any sane person would disagree that being able to completely vanish while having the potential to open with high damage is totally okay.
There's a reason that like... Literally no other game with PvP has designed Stealth this way. Any other game either it; slows you down significantly, you become partially visible at a certain range, you cannot use other skills while Stealthed, etc. In GW2 however, you experience none of those limitations and you're rewarded for being in Stealth by gaining additional benefits like health regeneration or increased movement speed in the case of Thief. Other classes may not have those benefits, but it doesn't mean Stealth is suddenly okay for other classes either.

It's different in PvP where you're forced to control a node and have limited room to move about. - Stealth there is a lot more about misdirection. In WvW though, there's no reason to ever come out of Stealth if you don't want to. That means you can camp it until there's a good time to open, and realistically no one is going to predict that opening with 100% accuracy.
I'm not going to argue semantics on this, yes there are ways to prevent/counter Stealth, the point is that it's such a poorly designed mechanic that developers thought it necessary to add both outside sources of Reveal and to give classes more access to the effect.

Thief needs some love whether people who play the class agree or not. It has suffered a lot of heavy nerfs with little compensation and has pigeonholed them to a very small selection of viable traits and skills for a long time. It is always going to be a difficult class to balance because it is tied to a mechanic that is fundamentally broken. But as long as ANet keeps limiting their options and players keep complaining when a Thief looks at them funny, they're always going to regress to high Stealth builds because it's the only thing that lets them maintain control regardless of their balance situation.

[ASP.8093]

39 minutes ago, Shroud.2307 said:

It has suffered a lot of heavy nerfs with little compensation and has pigeonholed them to a very small selection of viable traits and skills for a long time.

Honestly? I disagree here.

 

4/5 core trait lines are good right now. 2/2 especs are good. Something like 20-40% of the utility skills are highly desirable in various ways.

 

Yeah, sure, everyone outside PvE takes Trickery. Yeah, Shadow Arts is really hard to beat if you're going for any kind of sustain. But we have a great straight damage-buffing trait line in Crit Strikes, and a very powerful aggressive play-making trait line in Deadly Arts (as well as a powerful condi burst trait line, if you need that instead).

 

Yeah, sure, Shadowstep is so amazing you kinda have to take it. It towers above other skills. And yet Blinding Powder, Signet of Agility, Smoke Screen, Shadow Portal, Assassin Signet, Infiltrator's Signet, Roll for Initiative, Scorpion Wire are all pretty great skills. I'd say that's honestly better than a lot of other classes.

 

Playing Thief does kinda funnel you into a specific bursty in-and-out playstyle, but the class actually supports that playstyle really, really well. I think overall it's just got way less *useless cruft* than many of the classes in the game.

 

Which means that ultimately the class might need some tweaks to damage numbers or initiative costs here and there, but it's built on a really solid foundation.

Edited September 9, 2021 by ASP.8093

[shrew.3059]

3 hours ago, Shroud.2307 said:

There's a reason that like... Literally no other game with PvP has designed Stealth this way. Any other game either it; slows you down significantly, you become partially visible at a certain range, you cannot use other skills while Stealthed, etc. In GW2 however, you experience none of those limitations and you're rewarded for being in Stealth by gaining additional benefits like health regeneration or increased movement speed in the case of Thief. Other classes may not have those benefits, but it doesn't mean Stealth is suddenly okay for other classes either.

 

Comparing Thief to other Rogues doesn’t really make a lot of sense. In fact, it’s intellectually dishonest because it uses those implementation to argue for and against Thieves when convenient, and it pretends all other things are equal when this isn’t true.

 

1. Stealth in other games is often only available to Rogues,

2. Rogues are often the source of very competitive single target damage,

3. Rogues are often capable of a range of disabling effects (e.g., stunlocks),

4. Those games are based on a trinity system where classes can specialise.

 

The last point is key, I think. We don’t have a trinity system in GW2 yet Thieves cannot really support or soak damage, yet are not consistently the top damage dealers. In effect, Thieves are punished as they would be under a trinity system but not rewarded as such.

[Cynz.9437]

There is one problem with the suggestion (on top of all other arguments against it): it would also heavily punish non-perma stealth thieves. Given how the class is already punished by WvW mechanics (items, tower, sentries) which don't affect other classes it would be bit too much. I still want one day even where marked by tower/sentry would pulsate and disable class mechanic and highest damaging weapon skill completely like it does for thieves, so no shatter, no life force generation, no shroud, no virtrues, no attunement swap etc. Just for one day.

 

When fighting a thief and getting mad at them going in stealth for long time one should actually really ask themselves: why does thief even go for such long periods of time in stealth? You think thief players don't want kills? Don't want to fight? Did it ever occurred to you that it is all they have to stay alive in most cases? I mean, i can sit here and constantly complain how guards for example have seemingly endless blocks and heals. Because this is exactly what people do here when they complain about thief.

 

If you want thieves not to camp stealth ask Anet to give the class better means to stay alive and do damage than stealth. Fact is, all Anet did was to nerf evasion, nerf mobility, increase ini costs (which forced the class into backstab/AA rotation). After all this how can anyone be surprised that thief players resort to stealth builds? YOU (community) asked for it after all.

Edited September 9, 2021 by Cynz.9437

[shrew.3059]

1 minute ago, Cynz.9437 said:

Did it ever occurred to you that it is all they have to stay alive in most cases? I mean, i can sit here and constantly complain how guards for example how seemingly endless blocks and heals. Because this is exactly what people do here when they complain about thief.

 

I’m going to guess that a lot of the people complaining about Stealth on the forums mostly care about what they can or cannot do and don’t think much about how it affects those they want to kill. “Your Stealthing denies me a kill and that’s not fair” seems like pretty much the extent of it.

[Exzen.2976]

It's about the ability to counterplay. In its current state it allows very little counterplay outside of standing near sentries/towers, using items (lol), using reveal skills (which aren't available to all classes which is an utter joke for "balance") and spamming aoe/guessing where and when a thief MAY come out of stealth to re-engage. This can be waited out by a thief in stealth, leaving the player with everything on CD. I am not suggesting we nerf stealth access and that is then fine, because I do then agree Thief would be underwhelming and would need compensation elsewhere. If you think about it, all other mechanics in gw2 can be reasonably counterplayed.

 

I also think that if stealth gets reworked, reveal from sentries/towers and items should be reverted. This was only ever introduced as a bandaid fix due to how oppressive permastealth was to the gamemode at the time.

Edited September 9, 2021 by Exzen.2976

[Cynz.9437]

 

32 minutes ago, Exzen.2976 said:

It's about the ability to counterplay. In its current state it allows very little counterplay outside of standing near sentries/towers, using items (lol), using reveal skills (which aren't available to all classes which is an utter joke for "balance") and spamming aoe/guessing where and when a thief MAY come out of stealth to re-engage.

 

How is it little counterplay? What do you think the idea of stealth/invisibility as mechanic in ANY game? Make enemy guess where you are. Play mind games.  You are actually complaining that stealth does what it supposed to do? Seriously? I can bring same argument about blocks: there is little counterplay to the skill outside of few unblockables that not every class has access to. Oh and wvw mechanics don't allow players to ignore blocks of the enemy.

 

BTW, PRO TIPP: year old bug that still persist in this game - BACKSTAB DOES NOT CONNECT TO TARGET THAT IS JUMPING. NO NEED CDs for it, just working space bar.

So dear Exzen, why am i not seeing any threads/posts from you making shameless advertisements for your youtube videos (like you usually do) and actually asking to fix this bug?

 

32 minutes ago, Exzen.2976 said:

This can be waited out by a thief in stealth, leaving the player with everything on CD.

You nicely avoid mentioning that gaining stealth also requires quite few CDs and resources. If player has everything on CD when thief went in stealth then problem is not the thief but the player.

 

32 minutes ago, Exzen.2976 said:

 I am not suggesting we nerf stealth access and that is then fine, because I do then agree Thief would be underwhelming and would need compensation elsewhere. If you think about it, all other mechanics in gw2 can be reasonably counterplayed.

 

See example i brought regarding blocks. Blocks for example or invulnerability can be countered way less than stealth.

 

32 minutes ago, Exzen.2976 said:

I also think that if stealth gets reworked, reveal from sentries/towers and items should be reverted. This was only ever introduced as a bandaid fix due to how oppressive permastealth was to the gamemode at the time.

 

And how should it be reworked? Because everything i read from you so far implies that you just want to remove the mechanic because it forces people to actually think. Oh no. As far as sentry/tower marking goes, better fix would be preventing players from getting stealth via attacking structures and once again give thieves better survival tools than camping stealth. What they did instead is just blatant discrimination of one class.

 

Edited September 9, 2021 by Cynz.9437

[Exzen.2976]

45 minutes ago, Cynz.9437 said:

 

"It's about the ability to counterplay. In its current state it allows very little counterplay outside of standing near sentries/towers, using items (lol), using reveal skills (which aren't available to all classes which is an utter joke for "balance") and spamming aoe/guessing where and when a thief MAY come out of stealth to re-engage."

 

How is it little counterplay? What do you think the idea of stealth/invisibility as mechanic in ANY game? Make enemy guess where you are. Play mind games.  You are actually complaining that stealth does what it supposed to do? Seriously? I can bring same argument about blocks: there is little counterplay to the skill outside of few unblockables that not every class has access to. Oh and wvw mechanics don't allow players to ignore blocks of the enemy.

 

"This can be waited out by a thief in stealth, leaving the player with everything on CD."

You nicely avoid mentioning that gaining stealth also requires quite few CDs and resources. If player has everything on CD when thief went in stealth then problem is not the thief but the player.

 

" I am not suggesting we nerf stealth access and that is then fine, because I do then agree Thief would be underwhelming and would need compensation elsewhere. If you think about it, all other mechanics in gw2 can be reasonably counterplayed."

See example i brought regarding blocks. Blocks for example or invulnerability can be countered way less than stealth.

 

"I also think that if stealth gets reworked, reveal from sentries/towers and items should be reverted. This was only ever introduced as a bandaid fix due to how oppressive permastealth was to the gamemode at the time."

 

And how should it be reworked? Because everything i read from you so far implies that you just want to remove the mechanic because it forces people to actually think. Oh no. As far as sentry/tower marking goes, better fix would be preventing players from getting stealth via attacking structures and once again give thieves better survival tools. What they did instead is just blatant discrimination of one class.

 

How is it not "little counterplay"? You are either trolling or only play thief. So say I am playing Reaper or Ele, neither of which have access to reveal. How do I counter a permastealth thief that can wait out all dangerous cooldowns (shroud in reaper/defensive cooldowns in ele) and then hit for huge damage, blind/CC/port and then go back into stealth as soon as revealed goes away and repeat until the Reaper has no life-force or the ele has no defensive cooldowns and both are sitting ducks. It's not about making you think, it's that the thief holds ALL the cards and will only lose if they make a mistake, which isn't counterplay. I have 2000+ hours on thief and I'm fully aware of what it is capable of. The way you say it, the Reaper or Ele should just walk run away or wait until the thief reveals themselves for 3 seconds (likely after a high damage skill like backstab) before using any cooldowns? You can cc a thief sure, but the thief will likely have shadowstep on the bar as well as agility signet... so good luck pinning it down before it can re-enter stealth. 

 

OK take your argument about blocks. Counterplay = unblockables (surprisingly), if we're talking aegis, then proc the block with an auto attack/low cd low damage skill etc before using a big dmg skill. If it's a skill, it will be blocking for a known set time, you then wait and then attack when it finishes. Very very very easy counterplay. Not saying that block sucks, but it is fair. And what do you mean about wvw mechanics don't allow you to ignore blocks? Lmao, thief has swipe, shadowshot and basi venom just off the top of my head, all of which are unblockable. If you're talking about marked from sentries etc, I already stated that should be reverted with a rework. I agree it was a bad design choice to have it unfairly punish Thief. It would have been better if they reworked stealth!

 

Gaining stealth does require some resources, sure, I have no disagreement with that. But your ini will come back much much much quicker than a 60 second cooldown on a valuable defensive cooldown, as will a dodge, a heal skill, steal/swipe etc. The resources to keep stealth in place aren't that high in all honesty. 

 

Invulnerable can also be countered by waiting... all invulns have relatively short lengths, normally around 3 seconds. Counterplay is to wait and not blow your cooldowns while they are invuln. Players can't attack while invuln. Easy easy counterplay and it can't be chained permanently, unlike stealth. 

 

With regards to a rework, why not place a cap on the number of seconds you can stay in stealth for (therefore not hurting non permastealth thieves)? Perhaps a much longer debuff after leaving stealth that would prevent the thief from re-entering after 3 seconds, or perhaps preventing them for as long as they were in stealth for. I'm not saying its easy to balance, but it is unhealthy in its current state. This is why so many players bring this up.

 

I don't get your issue with me suggesting the revealed from sentries/towers should be reverted if stealth is reworked?

 

No, I don't want to remove the stealth mechanic completely, I just want it to be balanced and fun to fight with AND against. In its current form, it is only fun for the Thief player, which is bad design. 

Edited September 9, 2021 by Exzen.2976

[Dawdler.8521]

1 hour ago, Cynz.9437 said:

 Given how the class is already punished by WvW mechanics (items, tower, sentries) which don't affect other classes it would be bit too much.

Other classes arent affected by being permanently visible on the minimap compared to a thief that see its 100% stealth uptime get reduced to a paltry... 40% uptime?

[Hotride.2187]

I like how fighting thief feels in conquest way more than how fighting one in wvw feels. Dueling a thief - fine. Anything else with a thief opponent? Either a no thanks or you laugh they got downed by some random cleave. I can't say I've had anything in-between those extremes, at least when the thief is good.

What I don't like is that thief seems to be the only profession that can escape several players dedicated in chasing you down and killing you (not just half-assed chasing). You can chase down every other profession (with and without access to stealth) if the group takes their time and really means it. Thief though? Only if the thief is being greedy.

Rest I'm fine with.

I doubt I can come up with fix suggestions, but a step in the right direction would be if every specialization had access to a reveal they can slot (e.g. magebane tether is a good, but is limited to one specialization). I also feel that if you are being revealed by multiple players your stealth should be much more limited. I can't think of any mechanic aside from stealth, that isn't diminished by multiple players focusing you; I can't see why stealth should be any different.

[Exzen.2976]

57 minutes ago, Cynz.9437 said:

 

BTW, PRO TIPP: year old bug that still persist in this game - BACKSTAB DOES NOT CONNECT TO TARGET THAT IS JUMPING. NO NEED CDs for it, just working space bar.

I was unaware of the bug, but you should raise it. I am not the sort of person that likes to exploit bugs to win - report it to anet if you haven't already. I shall not be abusing the space bar, since its clearly unintended. 

1 hour ago, Cynz.9437 said:

So dear Exzen, why am i not seeing any threads/posts from you making shameless advertisements for your youtube videos (like you usually do) and actually asking to fix this bug?

Also it's unnecessary to send comments like this. No need to insult people that take the time to create youtube content for the game. If you don't like it, don't watch it. We have few enough content creators as it is.