For kitten sake nerf necro already

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

The scourge nerfs have been pathetic and have done nothing to make them any less oppressive. The minionmancer nerfs have been pathetic and have done nothing to make them any less oppressive. Its been nearly 2 years of this kitten necro meta, i dont know if the balance team is incompetent or if they just dont care.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

You're complaining...about minionmancer...

 

Someone might have taken you seriously if you didn't do that.

[Obtena.7952]

Really? Minionmancer is the problem of Necro you want to pin your flag to? Is this like a PVE farm complaint thread or ?

Edited August 26, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Zoser.7245]

They'll nerf it as much as rework the Virtuoso to make it competitive. 👀

[Zalavaaris.5329]

Someone just lost in pvp lololol soooooour grapes..... 

[Rym.1469]

Revive well proc from Blood Magic should probably go or be swapped with Life from Death so it has to compete with Vampiric Aura. It's a very low alternative cost trait everyone takes and it almost guarantees a rezz unless you get focused by more than one DPS. And it is on 30s CD.

 

 

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

3 hours ago, Zalavaaris.5329 said:

Someone just lost in pvp lololol soooooour grapes..... 

just tired of facing 2 necros in every single game

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

3 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Really? Minionmancer is the problem of Necro you want to pin your flag to? Is this like a PVE farm complaint thread or ?

Do you play pvp?

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

3 hours ago, Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

You're complaining...about minionmancer...

 

Someone might have taken you seriously if you didn't do that.

Do you play pvp?

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

12 minutes ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

Do you play pvp?

Enough to know Minionmancer is worthless at anything but the lowest levels.

[Obtena.7952]

44 minutes ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

Do you play pvp?

Enough to know Minionmancer is worthless at anything but the lowest levels. (I borrowed that)

Edited August 26, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Enough to know Minionmancer is worthless at anything but the lowest levels. (I borrowed that)

 

1 hour ago, Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

Enough to know Minionmancer is worthless at anything but the lowest levels.

MM was in NA finals on both teams last MAT. It has been one of the strongest side noders in tournaments and ranked for a while. So either you dont really understand why its strong, or you secretly understand the meta better than everyone currently playing in tournaments.

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

 

MM was in NA finals on both teams last MAT. It has been one of the strongest side noders in tournaments and ranked for a while. So either you dont really understand why its strong, or you secretly understand the meta better than everyone currently playing in tournaments.

Neither of those ... I'm just wondering why it needs a nerf? Nothing about being in NA finals suggests minionmancer needs a nerf. Sounds to me like you got some issue against playing certain builds. No reason to cry to about that.

Edited August 26, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Kodama.6453]

9 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Neither of those ... I'm just wondering why it needs a nerf? Nothing about being in NA finals suggests minionmancer needs a nerf. Sounds to me like you got some issue against playing certain builds. No reason to cry to about that.

Your former statement (which you apparently borrowed) was that minionmancer is worthless except in the lowest levels of play.

 

He has shown you that this statement is obviously wrong, since the finals hardly can be described as "the lowest levels of play".

 

Also I would like to ask: why is minionmancer allowed to function on that level, while turreteer is nuked into oblivion for being "too passive"? Necromancers can stack more passive effects on their minions than engi was ever able to with turrets, yet these utility skills are allowed to be good.

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

Neither of those ... I'm just wondering why it needs a nerf? Nothing about being in NA finals suggests minionmancer needs a nerf. Sounds to me like you got some issue against playing certain builds. No reason to cry to about that.

It needs a nerf because it shuts out nearly all counterplay while being one of the most passive builds in the game. There were 3 necros per team in the finals. 2 scourge 1 minionmancer. Necro has been overpowered for years and none of the recent nerfs have done anything to fix that.

[Tails.9372]

2 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Also I would like to ask: why is minionmancer allowed to function on that level, while turreteer is nuked into oblivion for being "too passive"?

 

That sounds like A-Net being A-Net, sometimes there is neither logic nor consistency in their actions and more often than not they absolutely seem to hate to explain their reasoning.

 

 

29 minutes ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

It needs a nerf because it shuts out nearly all counterplay while being one of the most passive builds in the game.

 

A build having little to no counterplay to it is a valid reason for A-Net to address something, "I don't like how you play your class" however is not.

Edited August 27, 2021 by Tails.9372

[Dadnir.5038]

6 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Also I would like to ask: why is minionmancer allowed to function on that level, while turreteer is nuked into oblivion for being "too passive"?

 

Just out of curiosity, did any engineer even bother trying to actually play a serious turreteer build since feb 2020 patch? I believe the answer is "no". Minionmancer being viable only thanks to this cursed patch, I suspect that the "passive" turreteer might be a lot more potent in the current game than Engineers think.

 

As for what the OP said, well... Yes, indeed, the nerfs weren't at a level were they would really be felt in sPvP. And I can even recall myself writing that thay wouldn't meet expectations when they showed us the patch notes preview.

[Kodama.6453]

41 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

 

Just out of curiosity, did any engineer even bother trying to actually play a serious turreteer build since feb 2020 patch? I believe the answer is "no". Minionmancer being viable only thanks to this cursed patch, I suspect that the "passive" turreteer might be a lot more potent in the current game than Engineers think.

 

As for what the OP said, well... Yes, indeed, the nerfs weren't at a level were they would really be felt in sPvP. And I can even recall myself writing that thay wouldn't meet expectations when they showed us the patch notes preview.

Alot of turrets are associated with hard CC (rocket turret overcharge has knockdown, thumper turret overcharge has launch (0 distance), net turret overcharge has stun, supply crate has the stun), so this patch removed quite some damage from turrets.

 

And turret damage wasn't even good in the first place.

The CC the build brings used to be a benefit, since you kept the enemy stunlocked to protect yourself while also dealing damage to them, but with this patch, I doubt that you would even manage to kill anyone.

 

On top of that, healing turret got nerfed for PvP in that patch. Cooldown went up from 20 seconds to 30 seconds.... I think it is quite obvious that this has been a huge nerf for it. And that healing skill was also a big contributor to the builds power.

 

I guess I can try to make a serious turreteer build this weekend and try it out in PvP, but I don't expect to have any even slightly useful results with it. The Feb2020 patch should have done more harm than good for it.

 

 

Edited August 27, 2021 by Kodama.6453

[Ragebru.1397]

48 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

 

Just out of curiosity, did any engineer even bother trying to actually play a serious turreteer build since feb 2020 patch? I believe the answer is "no". Minionmancer being viable only thanks to this cursed patch, I suspect that the "passive" turreteer might be a lot more potent in the current game than Engineers think.

 

As for what the OP said, well... Yes, indeed, the nerfs weren't at a level were they would really be felt in sPvP. And I can even recall myself writing that thay wouldn't meet expectations when they showed us the patch notes preview.

turrets also don't gain modifiers like the minions do... so there's that.

[Dadnir.5038]

1 minute ago, jwhite.7012 said:

turrets also don't gain modifiers like the minions do... so there's that.

 

Fact is that minions weren't in a better spot than turrets pre Feb 2020 patch despite their "modifiers". You could say that minions don't spawn a reflective shield when summoned, don't grant boons around them periodically or cannot be healed via a necromancer's AA. Turrets have their own Pros and Cons.

[Ragebru.1397]

4 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

 

Fact is that minions weren't in a better spot than turrets pre Feb 2020 patch despite their "modifiers". You could say that minions don't spawn a reflective shield when summoned, don't grant boons around them periodically or cannot be healed via a necromancer's AA. Turrets have their own Pros and Cons.

I'm confused... it's 2021? The fact of the matter, is turrets did get nerfed, why shouldn't minions, or summons?

[Ragebru.1397]

14 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

 

Fact is that minions weren't in a better spot than turrets pre Feb 2020 patch despite their "modifiers". You could say that minions don't spawn a reflective shield when summoned, don't grant boons around them periodically or cannot be healed via a necromancer's AA. Turrets have their own Pros and Cons.

I'll also leave this little breakdown of how the turrets function and why they are not viable as a damage source.

Quote

 On top of this, turrets are considered environmental objects and will be pierced by all projectiles, and are unable to gain boons but will gain conditions. Renegade summons block projectiles and will gain boons. Turrets, being environmental objects also have a rotational delay so they can only hit stationary targets. These are three massive and arbitrary disadvantages stacked on top of each other that leads to nobody using turrets in any game mode, but renegade summons see widespread use in every game mode.

The piercing is honestly a huge issue, which is one of the reasons that make MM's a challenge at times. Considering Engineer pistol doesn't even pierce, you're unlikely to hit an MM with a 1, 2, or even 3 ability. There's also the issue of hit cap, which minions pull into that. However, back to the piercing, the exception is things like thumper (hard cc) and the flamethrower turret (aoe blind on placement), not because of the damage capabilities.. on top of that, once the turret drops (which since they don't scale and can be easily one shot) you're left completely exposed. This is why it's typically better to take something else for stomping, or reviving. 

 

All that aside, there's the issue of tracking, since the turrets can only hit stationary targets- you're pretty limited to it contributing actual damage. Say you were going up against a MM, the minions would simply eat all the turret autos regardless. 

[Dadnir.5038]

17 minutes ago, jwhite.7012 said:

I'm confused... it's 2021? The fact of the matter, is turrets did get nerfed, why shouldn't minions, or summons?

 

Indeed you're confused, turrets only change/nerf since Pre feb 2020 is retal being changed to resolve while minions indeed saw various nerfs like bonus health from trait down from 50% to 15% or power coefficient for death nova from 0.75 to 0.45.

 

Edit, You should look at the wiki for turrets.

Edited August 27, 2021 by Dadnir.5038

[Kodama.6453]

15 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

 

Fact is that minions weren't in a better spot than turrets pre Feb 2020 patch despite their "modifiers". You could say that minions don't spawn a reflective shield when summoned, don't grant boons around them periodically or cannot be healed via a necromancer's AA. Turrets have their own Pros and Cons.

We literally have 1 trait that buffs our usage of turrets, which puts the reflective bubble on them and pulsing boons, as you mentioned.

 

Fun fact, these 2 benefits of the trait contradict each other. The reflect bubble suggests that you want to pick turrets up frequently so you can place turrets down again to get the most out of the reflect, since it does just occur on placement and not periodically. Meanwhile the boons generated suggest that you want to keep the turrets out, since they will pulse boons the entire time they are around.

 

Meanwhile necromancers get 4 traits to improve their minions:

• Flesh of the master: more health for minions and necro gets more toughness for each minion they have
• Necromantic corruption: minions deal more damage and transfer conditions from the necromancer to themselves, then to the enemy after an attack (so constant condi clean and condi pressure for the enemy)
• Death nova: dying minions explode, dealing damage and poison to enemies, enemies you kill spawn a jagged horror
• Vampiric: minions siphon health for you (constant healing)

 

On top of already mention that minions benefit from modifiers, can get healed not only by a specific kit, but by any source of healing, and can benefit from boons (turrets can't get any boons applied at all).

 

Minions are strong after the Feb2020 patch because they are a constant stream of healing and condi clean for the necromancer on top of the necromancers own survivability through the death shroud. Turreteer didn't benefit the same since it doesn't have as much sustain, especially because of weird trait interactions like the power damage from your turrets not contributing to the barrier generation from scrapper, for example. And again, turreteers strongest sustain tool, healing turret, got nerfed hard in that patch.

 

What makes minionmancer strong is that minions are adding tons of survivability to the necromancer. Turrets don't add the same amount of defense to the engineer.

 

 

[Ragebru.1397]

9 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Edit, You should look at the wiki for turrets.

.........for?