Vindicator = reaper?

[RabbitUp.8294]

6 minutes ago, GrayHawk.7560 said:

3.  We don't know the status of the Kurzic and Luxon relations in EoD (or at least I don't, not sure if it has been confirmed somewhere).  Channeling an alliance may be foretelling or at least interesting from a narrative point of view.

 

 

 

I think that is pretty key. The empire turned against Luxons and Kurzicks, so they'd have to let go of old hatred to fight the common threat. And what better symbol of that alliance than a similar past alliance against a previous threat from the empire. 

That's all fine in the context of canthan revenants, but it's iffy for tyrian revenants.

Also, it's the third heroic e-spec, it seems like the faustian bargain aspect of revenant is all but forgotten at this point. But hey at least it's not a kittening Tengu.

Edited September 14, 2021 by RabbitUp.8294

[GrayHawk.7560]

4 minutes ago, RabbitUp.8294 said:

I think that is pretty key. The empire turned against Luxons and Kurzicks, so they'd have to let go of old hatred to fight the common threat. And what better symbol of that alliance than a similar past alliance against a previous threat from the empire. 

That's all fine in the context of canthan revenants, but it's iffy for tyrian revenants.

Also, it's the third heroic e-spec, it seems like the faustian bargain aspect of revenant is all but forgotten at this point. But hey at least it's not a kittening Tengu.

Agreed all round !

[ChronoPinoyX.7923]

8 minutes ago, RabbitUp.8294 said:

I think that is pretty key. The empire turned against Luxons and Kurzicks, so they'd have to let go of old hatred to fight the common threat. And what better symbol of that alliance than a similar past alliance against a previous threat from the empire. 

That's all fine in the context of canthan revenants, but it's iffy for tyrian revenants.

Also, it's the third heroic e-spec, it seems like the faustian bargain aspect of revenant is all but forgotten at this point. But hey at least it's not a kittening Tengu.

It actually makes a lot more sense for Tyrian Revenants, especially non-human Revenants, if we're going against an entire empire that not only annexed the Luxon and Kurzicks, but also purged the entire country of as many non-humans as possible. Archemorus and Viktor are easily seen as beings who, despite the circumstances they were in with the Jade Wind, united the nations of Cantha against a common enemy regardless of their race. Both Luxons and Kurzicks were welcoming of the different races across the world, but were forced by the Canthan Empire (more specifically, the Ministry of Purity) to go by their isolationists and racial purity ideals of everyone being human in Cantha or otherwise they get the good ol' purging. 

[RabbitUp.8294]

22 minutes ago, ChronoPinoyX.7923 said:

It actually makes a lot more sense for Tyrian Revenants, especially non-human Revenants, if we're going against an entire empire that not only annexed the Luxon and Kurzicks, but also purged the entire country of as many non-humans as possible. Archemorus and Viktor are easily seen as beings who, despite the circumstances they were in with the Jade Wind, united the nations of Cantha against a common enemy regardless of their race. Both Luxons and Kurzicks were welcoming of the different races across the world, but were forced by the Canthan Empire (more specifically, the Ministry of Purity) to go by their isolationists and racial purity ideals of everyone being human in Cantha or otherwise they get the good ol' purging. 

From the commander's POV, we don't really have a horse in the race. Whatever followed Winds of Change is probably already over by now. Sure, there are still victims and old grievances, but we get invited to Cantha* and see all the pretty jadetech, not the centuries of purging. Also, even if Cantha is hostile, we can just go back to our corner of the world. I don't think Anet would do a "tyrian saviour" story where we go against the empire to show them the errors of their ways. This is not a Joko situation, it's a lot more political than a zombie-raising lich.

 

*I don't really see a story where we decide to go to Cantha by ourselves. We were perfectly happy to ignore them and their dragon all those years, so we either get invited, or we end up there accidentally after some Mist-travelling.

[ChronoPinoyX.7923]

34 minutes ago, RabbitUp.8294 said:

From the commander's POV, we don't really have a horse in the race. Whatever followed Winds of Change is probably already over by now. Sure, there are still victims and old grievances, but we get invited to Cantha* and see all the pretty jadetech, not the centuries of purging. Also, even if Cantha is hostile, we can just go back to our corner of the world. I don't think Anet would do a "tyrian saviour" story where we go against the empire to show them the errors of their ways. This is not a Joko situation, it's a lot more political than a zombie-raising lich.

I don't recall anything changing in Cantha over the past couple years, they've still maintained their position as purist and isolationists. In fact they've probably gotten worse over the years considering that Tyria is dealing with Canthan refugees, possibly exiled from the region: 

Sporadic sailors have washed ashore on the southern coast of the Maguuma jungles, but that is the only evidence that Cantha even exists past the cataclysmic event that cut it off from Tyria. It can only be assumed that Usoku's successors continued his dictatorial, isolationist rule, and that Cantha continues beneath the iron fist of the emperor, as ever. -Movement of the World

If the case is that it's getting worse over the years, then it's easy for Canthan refugees to request the help of the Commander to undo the tyrannical empire, along with other Tyrian high ranks. You're right, it's a more political matter, but it's also one that could easily erupt into something even worse, especially if we put Elder Dragons into the picture. IBS's original storyline started out political, and look where that ended up. 

Edited September 14, 2021 by ChronoPinoyX.7923

[Andrew.2604]

I wish Thief got GS and was Oni, but now I highly doubt it, there probably going to get scepter lol. I wish Revenant got dual daggers, because now everyone is going to roll a Vindicator, and it's probably going to be the most played and overpowered class just like Renegade was... again. The only ray of hope for me is I can roll a human Vindicator and cosplay as Fallen Balthazar, I guess.

[RabbitUp.8294]

28 minutes ago, ChronoPinoyX.7923 said:

I don't recall anything changing in Cantha over the past couple years, they've still maintained their position as purist and isolationists. In fact they've probably gotten worse over the years considering that Tyria is dealing with Canthan refugees, possibly exiled from the region: 

Sporadic sailors have washed ashore on the southern coast of the Maguuma jungles, but that is the only evidence that Cantha even exists past the cataclysmic event that cut it off from Tyria. It can only be assumed that Usoku's successors continued his dictatorial, isolationist rule, and that Cantha continues beneath the iron fist of the emperor, as ever. -Movement of the World

If the case is that it's getting worse over the years, then it's easy for Canthan refugees to request the help of the Commander to undo the tyrannical empire, along with other Tyrian high ranks. You're right, it's a more political matter, but it's also one that could easily erupt into something even worse, especially if we put Elder Dragons into the picture. IBS's original storyline started out political, and look where that ended up. 

I'm not saying it got better, I'm saying it's over, the empire won. You can't have three centuries of purging, at this point there are at best going to be some small pockets of "impures" still resisting. Also, we have much more recent confirmation of the purging with the Sungua Peak fractal, the letters you find scattered confirm that they were attacking Kurzicks and non-humans. 1 2 3

Also, IBS had a very different story. Bangar was a usurper, and the charr united against him. We didn't come to save them, we were only involved because of Jormag. 

The Cantha situation is very different. You are describing supporting rebels to overthrow an empire. I'm pretty sure the empire's citizens will not be very happy about it. And that's without mentioning all the strong parallels between Cantha and current China, which I'm sure anet wants to avoid at all costs.

Edited September 14, 2021 by RabbitUp.8294

[ChronoPinoyX.7923]

1 hour ago, RabbitUp.8294 said:

I'm not saying it got better, I'm saying it's over, the empire won. You can't have three centuries of purging, at this point there are at best going to be some small pockets of "impures" still resisting. Also, we have much more recent confirmation of the purging with the Sungua Peak fractal, the letters you find scattered confirm that they were attacking Kurzicks and non-humans. 1 2 3

Also, IBS had a very different story. Bangar was a usurper, and the charr united against him. We didn't come to save them, we were only involved because of Jormag. 

The Cantha situation is very different. You are describing supporting rebels to overthrow an empire. I'm pretty sure the empire's citizens will not be very happy about it. And that's without mentioning all the strong parallels between Cantha and current China, which I'm sure anet wants to avoid at all costs.

The Sunqua Peak entries were written at the time of Usoku's reign, so they would have been dated long since then. The scenario of Cantha being isolationists still and potentially exiling people so they'd end up in Cantha is still happening to this day, so the purging is more than likely occurring still as stated by the Movement of the World entry. 

Also if we're gonna draw parallels here, people need to stop saying Cantha is Asian only, it's really not. Cantha as a whole is a Eurasian inspired region. Much of it parallels modern day Asia and Europe by design. If anything, the downfall of an Empire would be paralleled more towards the Roman Empire's downfall since one of the key factions, the Kurzicks, are inspired by Germanic Goths who helped take down the Roman Empire. Cantha being directly compared to just alone China sounds wrong when the entire region takes multiple cultures into consideration, including South East Asian, Greek and German cultures. 

Edited September 14, 2021 by ChronoPinoyX.7923

[RabbitUp.8294]

37 minutes ago, ChronoPinoyX.7923 said:

The Sunqua Peak entries were written at the time of Usoku's reign, so they would have been dated long since then. The scenario of Cantha being isolationists still and potentially exiling people so they'd end up in Cantha is still happening to this day, so the purging is more than likely occurring still as stated by the Movement of the World entry. 

Also if we're gonna draw parallels here, people need to stop saying Cantha is Asian only, it's really not. Cantha as a whole is a Eurasian inspired region. Much of it parallels modern day Asia and Europe by design. If anything, the downfall of an Empire would be paralleled more towards the Roman Empire's downfall since one of the key factions, the Kurzicks, are inspired by Germanic Goths who helped take down the Roman Empire. Cantha being directly compared to just alone China sounds wrong when the entire region takes multiple cultures into consideration, including South East Asian, Greek and German cultures. 

You are talking about in-game chronology, I'm talking about real life. Movement of the World is a decade old, the devs could have changed Cantha's lore. The letters were added to the game after EoD development started, so the devs showed their hand on where they want to take the story.

 

They draw inspirations from multiple sources, but they are very much still an Asian region. The Kurzicks might be emo gothic tree hippies, but they are still Asian, even if they build European cathedrals. When you go into Kaineng centre, it's not european, or even Japanese influenced, it's very much purely Imperial China.

[ChronoPinoyX.7923]

41 minutes ago, RabbitUp.8294 said:

You are talking about in-game chronology, I'm talking about real life. Movement of the World is a decade old, the devs could have changed Cantha's lore. The letters were added to the game after EoD development started, so the devs showed their hand on where they want to take the story.

Yes, I'm talking from a chronological standpoint. Because that's how it's supposed to be viewed. When I spoke about how A/V would be potential Legends, I literally said ANet can easily provide further lore behind these two characters outside of Shiro because they are clean slates. Yes, ANet mentions their more recent achievement being their Alliance against Shiro, but similar to Kalla Scorchrazor, they can easily expand the lore in EOD past Shiro when the expac releases. 

9 minutes ago, RabbitUp.8294 said:

They draw inspirations from multiple sources, but they are very much still an Asian region. The Kurzicks might be emo gothic tree hippies, but they are still Asian, even if they build European cathedrals. When you go into Kaineng centre, it's not european, or even Japanese influenced, it's very much purely Imperial China.

Except they aren't. And I say this full well knowing that in order for ANet to develop Cantha, they had to take a heavy focus on Asian regions to provide the structures shown across the region. But in terms of lore and culture, the people of Luxon and Kurzicks weren't fully deemed "Asian Inspired", they are simply considered "Canthan" the same way people from any Eurasian countries can be called "Eurasians". 

People disregarding the vast cultural inspiration behind Cantha and just saying it's "Asian inspired" showcases how little many actually know about Cantha as a whole. The Upper Kaineng Regions and Shing Jea draw parallel not just to China or Japan, it draws parallel to most Asian regions, including the Middle East and South East Asia. The areas of the Jade Sea along with the entirety of the Luxon Factions are heavily inspired by Greek cultures, including their mythos, with Archemorus literally being named after a Greek Figure who is commonly called Opheltes but also takes the name Archemorus. The Kurzicks are heavily inspired by Gothic Germanic cultures, along with a focus on religion, with the term "Saint" being a large indicator of their heavy religious belief towards the Five Human Gods.  

So no, Cantha is not just an "Asian Region", only Kaineng even comes close to that, once you go past Pongmei Valley and travel towards the other two areas of Cantha, the naming convention for each area shifts massively to indicate that it's no longer considered "Asian Inspired".

[Tseison.4659]

In all honesty, I literally thought the video was of the Reaper because of all the similar/recycled animations and accidently exited the video thinking it was the wrong one 😂 but I guess that actually was the video for the new Rev Elite.... I'll just wait till Friday to see the entire stream because that didn't look too good from my perspective lol...

[RabbitUp.8294]

5 hours ago, ChronoPinoyX.7923 said:

Yes, I'm talking from a chronological standpoint. Because that's how it's supposed to be viewed. When I spoke about how A/V would be potential Legends, I literally said ANet can easily provide further lore behind these two characters outside of Shiro because they are clean slates. Yes, ANet mentions their more recent achievement being their Alliance against Shiro, but similar to Kalla Scorchrazor, they can easily expand the lore in EOD past Shiro when the expac releases. 

Except they aren't. And I say this full well knowing that in order for ANet to develop Cantha, they had to take a heavy focus on Asian regions to provide the structures shown across the region. But in terms of lore and culture, the people of Luxon and Kurzicks weren't fully deemed "Asian Inspired", they are simply considered "Canthan" the same way people from any Eurasian countries can be called "Eurasians". 

People disregarding the vast cultural inspiration behind Cantha and just saying it's "Asian inspired" showcases how little many actually know about Cantha as a whole. The Upper Kaineng Regions and Shing Jea draw parallel not just to China or Japan, it draws parallel to most Asian regions, including the Middle East and South East Asia. The areas of the Jade Sea along with the entirety of the Luxon Factions are heavily inspired by Greek cultures, including their mythos, with Archemorus literally being named after a Greek Figure who is commonly called Opheltes but also takes the name Archemorus. The Kurzicks are heavily inspired by Gothic Germanic cultures, along with a focus on religion, with the term "Saint" being a large indicator of their heavy religious belief towards the Five Human Gods.  

So no, Cantha is not just an "Asian Region", only Kaineng even comes close to that, once you go past Pongmei Valley and travel towards the other two areas of Cantha, the naming convention for each area shifts massively to indicate that it's no longer considered "Asian Inspired".

Those are influences, but the people themselves are still ethnically Asian. Like their race.

This is what Bank of Japan HQ looks like, clearly neoclassical architecture, does that mean Japanese are now considered European?

And that's only true for Kurzicks and Luxons, who were meant to be outsiders. The Canthan Empire itself is very clearly Imperial China with some Japanese hints.

Edited September 15, 2021 by RabbitUp.8294

[draxynnic.3719]

10 hours ago, ChronoPinoyX.7923 said:

So you're saying that just because they had an unexplored history past Shiro, they shouldn't be considered Legends? So that means Mallyx shouldn't be a Legend because we only knew it from the Domain of Anguish, or that Ventari, who is the most obscure of all Legends, shouldn't be a Legend because his only real achievement is his Tablet and planting a tree. The only true Legends in this game are Shiro, Jalis and Glint since these three actually had a role to play in Prophecies and Factions. 

Literally the bar for being a Legend was low from the very beginning. If you think Archemorus and Viktor set the bar low, they didn't have to do much since Mallyx and Ventari already set that bar extremely low when they became Legends. They did next to nothing in the grand majority of Tyria's history. Ventari didn't even know anything about what he did since one of his main dialogue is "I did not know that such a small seed could begin such a very large journey...".

 

It's not just that they're unexplored, it's that there's no event of suitable impact they COULD be related to.

 

Ventari had a transformational effect on the sylvari. It's not coincidence that his legend abilities are based entirely around his tablet, because that's where his real influence came from - not anything he did in life apart from writing those principles down, but the effect of those principles on the young race he didn't even know was coming.

 

Mallyx is a bit of a blank slate historically, but he probably didn't get to be Abaddon's right hand without doing something impressive. Given that revenants can't channel gods, he probably represents the war of the gods, the transformation of the Margonites into demons, and the events of Nightfall. Lay all that at his door, even by proxy, and he might even be bigger than Glint.

 

The vassal states duo? Any impact they may have had in life was completely overshadowed by the Jade Wind, and we already have Shiro. Now, IF we're given a scenario where the two were used post-GW1 as a symbol that allowed Kurzick-Luxon rapprochement to become a thing, then maybe this could bring them up to somewhere that's still a little below Kalla's standard. Otherwise, though, it really feels like they're double-dipping from the same story. If the same event can generate two legends, we should be expecting Khilbron as the Flameseeker, Turai for defeating Joko, the Great Destroyer for pushing Jalis to employ the Rite of the Great Dwarf, and so on.

 

Either way, it's certainly lowered the bar, it's just a question of how much.

[ChronoPinoyX.7923]

23 minutes ago, RabbitUp.8294 said:

Those are influences, but the people themselves are still ethnically Asian. Like their race.

Except again, they're not. That's like dumping every single one of us Asians under the "Eurasian" term just because we happened to be part of the greater Eurasia. That's not how the game has portrayed Luxons and Kurzicks. 

24 minutes ago, RabbitUp.8294 said:

This is what Bank of Japan HQ looks like, clearly neoclassical architecture, does that mean Japanese are now considered European?

That is about as bad as saying that Chinatown, London suddenly makes UK Asian. No, of course it doesn't, that's a singular country, Cantha is inspired by a transcontinental concept which was the whole point of the region. 

28 minutes ago, RabbitUp.8294 said:

And that's only true for Kurzicks and Luxons, who were meant to be outsiders. The Canthan Empire itself is very clearly Imperial China with some Japanese hints.

It really isn't, I could drop all of the official Guidebook information to showcase how wrong this statement is, but that's a textwall and a half, I feel like I've done enough textwalling for today so I'll leave it as is. 

35 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Either way, it's certainly lowered the bar, it's just a question of how much.

Again, it's very little considering Ventari and Mallyx's presence. In fact, they can't really drop it any lower with Mallyx since ANet never even expanded upon Mallyx's overall lore, he's literally only a Legend because of his mission in The Ebony Citadel of Mallyx, that's it. 

[draxynnic.3719]

57 minutes ago, ChronoPinoyX.7923 said:

 

Again, it's very little considering Ventari and Mallyx's presence. In fact, they can't really drop it any lower with Mallyx since ANet never even expanded upon Mallyx's overall lore, he's literally only a Legend because of his mission in The Ebony Citadel of Mallyx, that's it. 

Let's look at what we know about Mallyx.

 

He was the ruler of the Domain of Anguish. This puts not just the Ebony Citadel under his domain, but the four realms you have to conquer in order to get to the Ebony Citadel in the first place.

 

The Foundry of Failed Creations is where Abaddon's Titans were created (although there's lore to indicate that the general concept of Titans predate Abaddon's fall). The opposite side of the Door of Komalie, a focal point of the Flameseeker Prophecies which, among other things, rendered the mursaat near-extinct, was under Mallyx's purview. The Titans that made it into Mount Hrangmer and taught magic, including Searing magic, to the charr were also under Mallyx's purview.

 

Ravenheart Gloom, home of the Darknesses, is also his. So the invasion of the Tombs of the Primeval Kings in 1072AE was probably something he was involved with. The Stygian Veil is where Torment demons were created, so that's two components of Abaddon's armies that can be laid at his feet. The Margonite capital of Torc'qua being within his domain completes the trifecta.

 

Now, let's extrapolate a bit. Lord Jadoth is the Margonite mentioned as bringing down Abaddon's wrath on the Forgotten fleet in the Scriptures of Abaddon, but despite this, Mallyx (also a Margonite) is Jadoth's boss (below Abaddon himself). Why? Well, it's worth noting that this wasn't actually where the war started - the Forgotten fleet was responding the Margonite provocations. Who actually started the war? We don't know, but it wasn't Abaddon (he didn't get involved until after it had already started), and in Mallyx we have a Margonite who had apparently done something important enough to be raised above Jadoth when the Margonites were transformed into demons. Maybe Mallyx was the Margonite ruler who decided to start trashing temples of the other gods in support of Abaddon in the first place, and thus he was responsible for setting off the chains of dominos that led to the War of the Gods, the desolation of the Crystal Sea, Abaddon's imprisonment, the Exodus, and ultimately Nightfall. Or maybe Mallyx was the one who first found a kitten in the prison of the Realm of Torment, allowing Abaddon to start influencing Tyria after that, and this is why he got promoted - under this circumstance, he didn't need to have done anything that would have been recorded in Tyria's history directly to have had a major impact.

 

That's the distinction. With Mallyx, we don't need a detailed history to infer that Abaddon's right-hand human-turned demon has probably had a significant impact. There are events we can point to directly and say "this happened due to events that started out in Mallyx's domain". There are also significant events where the culprit isn't known, but where Mallyx is, at the very least, a major suspect.

 

Can you do this with the vassal states duo? As far as I can determine, there's no event of significance that can be attributed to either of them that isn't already connected to Shiro. It's not just that we don't know what they did, it's that there's no evidence that anything of significance happened during their lifetime that could be attributed to them apart from killing Shiro, which makes them part of Shiro's legend. 

 

Ventari, by contrast, represents having a major effect on the culture of a race. Sylvari culture is defined by Ventari's teachers, whether because they follow them (most sylvari) or they've defined themselves by the rejection of them (the Nightmare Court). No such lasting effect seems to be present regarding the Kurzicks and the Luxons. Both cultures were well-established long before Viktor and Archemorus, unless it turns out that the two were demigods that had actually been around for centuries before being killed by the Jade Wind. And any cultural changes they may have instigated while they were alive were pretty much immediately overturned by the Jade Wind and the adaptations needed by both cultures to survive the aftereffects.

 

In Mallyx's case, we don't have the details, but we have a long list of significant events that he likely had a hand in, and only one or two of those need to be attributed to him to put him at the level of Shiro (and if he was involved in all of them, he'd be giving Glint some serious competition). In Ventari's case, we can point to a culture which is founded on his teachings. Neither can be said about the vassal states duo. 

Edited September 15, 2021 by draxynnic.3719

[Fueki.4753]

22 hours ago, RabbitUp.8294 said:

I don't really see a story where we decide to go to Cantha by ourselves. We were perfectly happy to ignore them and their dragon all those years, so we either get invited, or we end up there accidentally after some Mist-travelling.

I can totally see Aurene peeping too deep into the scrying pool, seeing something special to her and urging the commander towards visiting Cantha.

[ChronoPinoyX.7923]

11 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

-snip-

All you've done with regards to Mallyx is loosely tie him to achievements and events that he's not even directly involved in. I can easily do that with Archemorus and Viktor by saying that because Archemorus and Viktor were champions of their respective Factions, they were able to keep a strong hold on the peace across Cantha by ensuring that the actions of their Faction didn't lead to further conflict that would cause Cantha to suffer before the Jade Wind.

In fact Archemorus and Viktor are far more directly involved in keeping both Luxon and Kurzick from going into all out war against one another because they chose to put the Luxon and Kurzick under Angsiyan's rule and provided prosperity for their respective Factions whilst maintaining their freedom from the Empire of the Dragon. Whatever action they took before the Jade Wind had a profound impact on both Factions and Cantha as a whole since they seemed to have prospered quite strongly... until Shiro went batskritt insane. 

Ventari's teachings was only ascribed to him by name because the Sylvari just happens to find his name written on that tablet. Let's say that Ronan wrote those teachings instead, would Ventari still be considered the penultimate inspiration behind the Sylvari's way of life? His role is genuinely that miniscule that Sylvaris like Faolain began questioning his teachings, and when Mordremoth came, those teachings didn't exactly help maintain the sanity of most Sylvaris who succumbed to Mordremoth's voice. 

[Heinel.6548]

I have to echo the sentiment that the reveal trailer of the vindicator is visually uninspiring, especially when compared to willbender and bladesworn. Let's hope the gameplay makes up for it. 

[Za Shaloc.3908]

20 minutes ago, Heinel.6548 said:

I have to echo the sentiment that the reveal trailer of the vindicator is visually uninspiring, especially when compared to willbender and bladesworn. Let's hope the gameplay makes up for it. 

 

Regarding the visuals: it is that impressive? Nah. But honestly I am glad it won't be a visual eyesore like Renegade (at least from what we have seen so far). VFX being more tame isn't really a bad thing as it can create better clarity on the battlefield. It's frustrating not being able to read animations amongst a sea of visual spam. It seems like ANet is trying to take a bit more of a modest approach in comparison to PoF (Virtuoso is a bit of an exception IMO), which I think is a good goal. But yes, hopefully the gameplay is good. 

[draxynnic.3719]

22 hours ago, ChronoPinoyX.7923 said:

All you've done with regards to Mallyx is loosely tie him to achievements and events that he's not even directly involved in. I can easily do that with Archemorus and Viktor by saying that because Archemorus and Viktor were champions of their respective Factions, they were able to keep a strong hold on the peace across Cantha by ensuring that the actions of their Faction didn't lead to further conflict that would cause Cantha to suffer before the Jade Wind.

In fact Archemorus and Viktor are far more directly involved in keeping both Luxon and Kurzick from going into all out war against one another because they chose to put the Luxon and Kurzick under Angsiyan's rule and provided prosperity for their respective Factions whilst maintaining their freedom from the Empire of the Dragon. Whatever action they took before the Jade Wind had a profound impact on both Factions and Cantha as a whole since they seemed to have prospered quite strongly... until Shiro went batskritt insane. 

Ventari's teachings was only ascribed to him by name because the Sylvari just happens to find his name written on that tablet. Let's say that Ronan wrote those teachings instead, would Ventari still be considered the penultimate inspiration behind the Sylvari's way of life? His role is genuinely that miniscule that Sylvaris like Faolain began questioning his teachings, and when Mordremoth came, those teachings didn't exactly help maintain the sanity of most Sylvaris who succumbed to Mordremoth's voice. 

Ventari has still played a defining role in history through his influence on the Pale Tree. While he wasn't responsible for freeing her from Mordremoth, we saw with Glint and her offspring that forming a bond with mortals is an important step in rehabilitating dragon champions and their scions.

 

In Mallyx's case - being a follower of the God of Secrets who was in the Realm of Torment for a thousand years, it stands to reason that full details of his deeds are not going to be available. But unless you're going to completely stick your head into the sand regarding the realities of chains of command, much of the events leading to Nightfall can be logically traced to him. He was literally the overseer of the realms where two of the branches of Abaddon's forces were created. This is not someone you can argue was inconsequential just because you're ignorant of the details.

 

A & V? The best you can point to is achieving a truce that didn't survive their death. One which Canthan history attributes to Angsiyan, but for the sake of argument let's say that's just Canthan bias. Is anyone who forms a temporary truce, however short-lived, of Legend status? We'd better both brace for Togo after all, because he was involved in at least TWO short-lived truces.

 

I get it, you like that your prediction was right. And maybe they've come up with awesome mechanics for the idea and that justifies everything. But surely you can acknowledge that if 'forged a temporary peace' is the bar that needs to be cleared...well, there have been a lot of truces in Tyrian history.

[RabbitUp.8294]

On 9/15/2021 at 6:41 AM, ChronoPinoyX.7923 said:

Except again, they're not. That's like dumping every single one of us Asians under the "Eurasian" term just because we happened to be part of the greater Eurasia. That's not how the game has portrayed Luxons and Kurzicks. 

That is about as bad as saying that Chinatown, London suddenly makes UK Asian. No, of course it doesn't, that's a singular country, Cantha is inspired by a transcontinental concept which was the whole point of the region. 

It really isn't, I could drop all of the official Guidebook information to showcase how wrong this statement is, but that's a textwall and a half, I feel like I've done enough textwalling for today so I'll leave it as is. 

Again, it's very little considering Ventari and Mallyx's presence. In fact, they can't really drop it any lower with Mallyx since ANet never even expanded upon Mallyx's overall lore, he's literally only a Legend because of his mission in The Ebony Citadel of Mallyx, that's it. 

Mallyx is a stand-in for Abaddon, plain and simple. He was the second in command, it would be like getting a Shatterer/Tequatl/etc legend.

Revenant channels these legends to fight, not to build a fan club. You don't channel Shiro because you admire his achievements, you do so because he's strong and you want his power. I really don't understand this obsession with achievements and impact in history. Again, this is not a hall of fame. There are figures that had significant impact on history, but they have no fighting prowess, and thus would make terrible picks for revenant legends

Edited September 16, 2021 by RabbitUp.8294

[Loules.8601]

50 minutes ago, RabbitUp.8294 said:

Revenant channels these legends to fight, not to build a fan club. You don't channel Shiro because you admire his achievements, you do so because he's strong and you want his power. I really don't understand this obsession with achievements and impact in history. Again, this is not a hall of fame. There are figures that had significant impact on history, but they have no fighting prowess, and thus would make terrible picks for revenant legends

I think that you don’t quite correctly understand mechanic of Revenant lore-wise. 
He channel legend, not people. So it’s power of the legend, not personal power. 
So if your legend had strong impact on mists you will be stronger than with someone, who stronger than your legend personally but with less history impact.

You use not their former abilities, but interpretation of them in Mists. Like Ventari and tablet. Not some sort of Shaman King.

Shiro legend can be actually weaker than new ones - yes, they lose to Shiro, but they helped kill him in all forms. And they have strong impact on people of Kantha and counties here. More influence on people/history > stronger legend in mists. Like Warp in Warhammer and deamons from it - stronger emotions > stronger deamon)

Edited September 17, 2021 by Loules.8601

[GrayHawk.7560]

7 hours ago, RabbitUp.8294 said:

Mallyx is a stand-in for Abaddon, plain and simple. He was the second in command, it would be like getting a Shatterer/Tequatl/etc legend.

Revenant channels these legends to fight, not to build a fan club. You don't channel Shiro because you admire his achievements, you do so because he's strong and you want his power. I really don't understand this obsession with achievements and impact in history. Again, this is not a hall of fame. There are figures that had significant impact on history, but they have no fighting prowess, and thus would make terrible picks for revenant legends

The more interesting thing for me is that the player character uses Archemorus and Viktor's artifacts to defeat the risen Shiro.  They therefore assist I'm his downfall at every stage.  That being said it's quite an interesting take on using their power to free Cantha (or whatever that story line will be) once again.  As heroes they're viewed as saviours by their people.